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  1. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat
    Back to the golf club?! That's where my thoughts have always gone...
    Mine too...from day #1
    It's probably too late to get justice for JonBenét. Maybe it always was. But knowing where things went wrong is the first step to not going there again. **-- Alan Prendergast-Dec 21, 2006--**

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  2. #50
    RiverRat's Avatar
    RiverRat is offline FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Left is Patsy Ramsey)
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    It fits.

    Plus - the 13 Minute Quicker Picker-Upper flies into a rage if anything other than the Mag-Lite is suggested as the weapon which drives home the fact to me that it was NOT the Mag-Lite.
    "Don't play dumb with me, RR! You're no good at it." The Punisher

    "Although no one is anticipating a prompt resolution to this long and much-detoured case, perhaps - just perhaps - might we see one of those moments “when a chance arrow of history scores a perfect bullseye on a deserving target”? Steve Thomas 2009

    "Justice hasn't had a chance so far. Anyone who doesn't have this as their prime goal, we'll have a falling out with." Fleet White - Time Magazine

    "What happens is that evil comes in," Fleet says. "If you don't have truth, all you have are lies, then what comes in is evil. And evil just does its thing. In the Ramsey case, it just did its thing, and it's eaten up so many people."

  3. #51

    Default Cause of the head injury

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat
    It fits.

    Plus - the 13 Minute Quicker Picker-Upper flies into a rage if anything other than the Mag-Lite is suggested as the weapon which drives home the fact to me that it was NOT the Mag-Lite.
    I too don't think the maglite was used as the weapon, but that the Ramseys used it either to illuminate the basement or in the kitchen to write the note because they did not want to put the full lights on.
    I'm not sure if I remember this correctly, but didn't a neighbor see moving light in the kitchen around or after midnight?

    Re the head wound: a golf club would fit imo, since it would be blunt enough not to have lacerated the scalp.

    But a lot depends on energy radiation patterns, and in needn't necessarily have been an object which was wielded. A poster on another forum mentioned a criminal case where a stepfather slammed his six-year-old stepdaughter's head against a wall and a piece of her skull bone got semi-punched out from the impact.

  4. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    I too don't think the maglite was used as the weapon, but that the Ramseys used it either to illuminate the basement or in the kitchen to write the note because they did not want to put the full lights on.
    I'm not sure if I remember this correctly, but didn't a neighbor see moving light in the kitchen around or after midnight?

    Re the head wound: a golf club would fit imo, since it would be blunt enough not to have lacerated the scalp.

    But a lot depends on energy radiation patterns, and in needn't necessarily have been an object which was wielded. A poster on another forum mentioned a criminal case where a stepfather slammed his six-year-old stepdaughter's head against a wall and a piece of her skull bone got semi-punched out from the impact.
    I agree too! I don't believe that the maglite was the weapon either. I believe that it was used to write the RN with. And yes, a neighbor reported seeing a moving light in the kitchen. This is the reason that it AND the batteries were wiped down (why would an intruder need to wipe the batteries down, anyway...they are INSIDE the flashlight)...because one or both of the Rams were the last ones to use it. They could have put it back where it came from, but didn't....this is just another part of their staging. IMO Leave it out, just in case a neighbor saw the beam...and pretend that it was used by the intruder.

  5. #53

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    Let's don't forget we can look at the autopsy photos for reference in this. If you look at the left side of this displaced skull bone, it creates a curve rather than a straight edge...?

    [WARNING!! GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS!!]

    http://zyberzoom.com/ComparisonPhotos.html

    I'm also not sure that the Ramseys thought out every single detail of this, like putting the flashlight on the countertop to be found there, etc. Maybe they did, but some things they just got lucky, IMO. Like Hunter, for example.

    For some reason, the baseball bat found outdoors always come to my mind. The RST make such a big deal about it. John and Patsy distanced Burke from it, but wouldn't deny it was his because they had no way to know what he said at grand jury. But a ball bat is rounded on the end and would do a lot of damage to a skull.

    But it could be the maglight or a golf club. Guess we'll never know.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  6. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    Let's don't forget we can look at the autopsy photos for reference in this. If you look at the left side of this displaced skull bone, it creates a curve rather than a straight edge...?

    [WARNING!! GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS!!]

    http://zyberzoom.com/ComparisonPhotos.html

    I'm also not sure that the Ramseys thought out every single detail of this, like putting the flashlight on the countertop to be found there, etc. Maybe they did, but some things they just got lucky, IMO. Like Hunter, for example.

    For some reason, the baseball bat found outdoors always come to my mind. The RST make such a big deal about it. John and Patsy distanced Burke from it, but wouldn't deny it was his because they had no way to know what he said at grand jury. But a ball bat is rounded on the end and would do a lot of damage to a skull.

    But it could be the maglight or a golf club. Guess we'll never know.
    Nope, I don't believe that we will EVER know....what a shame.

    If the Rams didn't intend for the flashlight to be found, wouldn't they have just put it back where it came from...the drawer? And not have spent all that time wiping it and the batteries down?

    I too, have wondered about that bat. But, I STILL believe that it was the rounded corner of the sink or tub. I am not a doctor...(nor do I play one on TV)...but, IMO she FELL onto something...hit her head, and then kept going until she hit the floor. To me, this would explain why the piece of her skull was displaced, instead of going inward. If she had of been hit deliberately, dead on with something...it would have not only displaced part of her skull, it would have also shoved it inward...toward her brain. IMO IMO

  7. #55

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    The problem with the "falling" theory as I see it is that she had no spinal injuries. To crack her skull in half in a fall, the impact would have to have been tremendous. That implies a great force of energy had to be exerted to project her at such a velocity to crack her skull like that. To suppose that she wouldn't have also sustained a neck injury during that fall seems a real stretch to me.

    Think about how fast, far, or hard her body would have to have moved to sustain such an injury. If you can explain to me how her BODY, which was about three quarters of her weight, was projected that fast and slammed to a halt by her head hitting a surface without causing damage to her neck bones, I can consider the "falling" theory. I simply can't figure out how 40 lbs of her followed her head into a surface at a fast velocity and the delicate neck bones remained unaffected from the impact of that crash. Her body would have contacted the surface AFTER her head; otherwise the head injury wouldn't have happened. The head made the first impact AT THE TOP OF THE SKULL, the body followed, propelling its weight into the surface--and the tiny neck sustained no whiplash injury?

    I'm no doctor, but I just can't see how that's possible.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  8. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    The problem with the "falling" theory as I see it is that she had no spinal injuries. To crack her skull in half in a fall, the impact would have to have been tremendous. That implies a great force of energy had to be exerted to project her at such a velocity to crack her skull like that. To suppose that she wouldn't have also sustained a neck injury during that fall seems a real stretch to me.

    Think about how fast, far, or hard her body would have to have moved to sustain such an injury. If you can explain to me how her BODY, which was about three quarters of her weight, was projected that fast and slammed to a halt by her head hitting a surface without causing damage to her neck bones, I can consider the "falling" theory. I simply can't figure out how 40 lbs of her followed her head into a surface at a fast velocity and the delicate neck bones remained unaffected from the impact of that crash. Her body would have contacted the surface AFTER her head; otherwise the head injury wouldn't have happened. The head made the first impact AT THE TOP OF THE SKULL, the body followed, propelling its weight into the surface--and the tiny neck sustained no whiplash injury?

    I'm no doctor, but I just can't see how that's possible.
    I know it sounds horrible, but maybe Patsy in a blind rage took JonBenet's head between her hands and slammed it against the nearby sink ot tub? I don't think it takes much force for an adult to crack the skull of a tiny six-year-old.

    jmo

  9. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat
    Back to the golf club?! That's where my thoughts have always gone...
    While the golf club (as well as one of the baseball bats found in the home) could have produced this kind of injury without lacerating the skull, I have problems imagining Patsy picking up a golf club and swinging it at JonBenet. Also, this club was probably not kept in the bathroom or in JonBenet's bedroom where according to SteveThomas, the confrontation took place.
    I would associate using the golf club (or the baseball bat) more with Burke.

    jmo

  10. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    I know it sounds horrible, but maybe Patsy in a blind rage took JonBenet's head between her hands and slammed it against the nearby sink ot tub? I don't think it takes much force for an adult to crack the skull of a tiny six-year-old.

    jmo

    While JonBenet was upside down? Have you seen the location of the displaced skull bone?

    I still can't imagine how that kind of force would not have been a tremendous strain on JonBenet's neck, as her body wouldn't have "gone along" in the circumstances you describe, but would have been stationary and again, its weight would have been a factor where her neck still takes a lot of stress. But there is no indication at autopsy that the inner muscles or neck bones suffered such trauma.

    I don't want to bring Athena's posts here because she hates FFJ, but she did compose some good information about the skull damage on her post at this link, though her sources are hard to make out. A member posted this here in the last day or so, to give credit:

    http://www.boards.320sycamore.com/sh...2315#post22315

    Here is the autopsy section on the head injury and the condition of the neck at autopsy (there's a typo in this HTML source, don't know if it's also in the actual autopsy report):

    http://crimemagazine.com/jonbenetdoc...topsy%20Report

    Skull and Brain: Upon reflection of the scalp there is found to be an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area. This encompasses an area measuring approximately 7 x 4 inches. This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization. At the superior extension of this area of hemorrhage is a linear to comminuted skull fracture which extends from the right occipital to posteroparietal area forward to the right frontal area across the parietal portion of the skull. the posteroparietal area of this fracture is a roughly rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull measuring one and three-quarters by one-half inch. The hemorrhage and the fracture extend posteriorly just past the midline of the occipital area of the skull. This fracture measures approximately 8.5 inches in length. On removal of the skull cap there is found to be a thin film of subdural hemorrhage measuring approximately 7-8 cc over the surface of the right cerebral hemisphere and extending to the base of the cerebral hemisphere. The 1450 gm brain has a normal overall architecture. Mild narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri are seen. No inflammation is identified. There is a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere. On the right cerebral hemisphere underlying the previously mentioned linear skull fracture is an extensive linear area of purple contusion extending from the right frontal area, posteriorly along the lateral aspect of the parietal region and into the occipital area. This area of contusion measures 8 inches in length with a width of up to 1.75 inches. At the tip of the right temporal lobe is a one-quarter by one quarter inch similar appearing purple contusion. Only very minimal contusion is present at the tip of the left temporal lobe. This area of contusion measures only one-half inch in maximum dimension. The cerebral vasculature contains no evidence of atherosclerosis. Multiple coronal sections of the cerebral hemispheres, brain stem and cerebullum disclose no additional abnormalities. The areas of previously described contusion are characterized by purple linear streak-like discolorations of the gray matter perpendicular to the surface of the cerebral cortex. These extend approximately 6 mm into the cerebral cortex. Examination of the base of the brain discloses no additional fractures.

    Neck: Dissection of the neck is performed after removal of the thoracoabdominal organs and the brain. The anterior strap musculature of the neck is serially dissected. Multiple sections of the sternocleidomastoid muscle disclose no hemorrhages. Sections of the remainder of the strap musculature of the neck disclose no evidence of hemorrhage. Examination of the thyroid cartilage, cricoid cartilage and hyoid bone disclose not [sic] evidence of fracture of hemorrhage. Multiple cross sections of the tongue disclose no hemorrhage or traumatic injury. The thyroid gland weights 2 gm and is normal in appearance. Cut sections are finely lobular and red-tan. The trachea and larynx are lined by smooth pink-tan mucosa without intrinsic abnormalities.

    Now let's look up "comminuted fracture" to clarify.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  11. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    While JonBenet was upside down? Have you seen the location of the displaced skull bone?
    The rectangular punched-out hole was near the back of her skull, at least this is the impression I got from seeing Dr Spitz's demonstration. In think JonBenet could have been facing her mother when Patsy took her head between her hands and slammed it backwards against the nearby sink.

    But like I said, it is only a hypothetical scenario. Imo the head wound could also have been inflicted to silence JonBenet for good because she threatened to tell about being sexually abused.

    jmo

  12. #60

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    Here's a good wikipedia definition of the various skull fractures and terminology. Notice the definition of how a "linear" fracture occurs:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_fracture

    Linear fracture
    Linear skull fractures, the most common type of skull fracture, occur in 69% of patients with severe head injury.[4][2] Usually caused by widely distributed forces, linear fractures often occur when the impact causes the area of the skull that was struck to bend inward, making the area around it buckle outward.[4][2]

    In rare cases, a linear fracture can develop and lengthen as the brain swells, in what is called a growing fracture. This can cause growth of cysts in the meninges.[2][5] Diastatic fractures are linear fractures that cause the bones of the skull to separate at the skull sutures in young children whose skull bones have not yet fused.[6][5] They are usually caused by impact with a wide area such as a wall.[4]


    [edit] Comminuted fracture

    Comminuted skull fractures, those in which a bone is shattered into many pieces, can result in bits of bone being driven into the brain, lacerating it.[4] Depressed skull fractures, a very serious type of trauma occurring in 11% of severe head injuries, are comminuted fractures in which broken bones are displaced inward.[2] This type of fracture carries a high risk of increasing pressure on the brain, crushing the delicate tissue. Complex depressed fractures are those in which the dura mater is torn. Depressed skull fractures may require surgery to lift the bones off of the brain if they are causing pressure on it.[1]

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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