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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    The rectangular punched-out hole was near the back of her skull, at least this is the impression I got from seeing Dr Spitz's demonstration. In think she could have been facing her mother when Patsy took her head between her hands and slammed it backwards against the nearby sink.

    Here is the pic of the skull at autopsy. I separated it out of the group pictures in case you didn't want to see those.

    http://zyberzoom.com/Crackedskull.jpg

    The comminuted skull fracture is at the top of the head. I cannot envision how Patsy could have done this to JonBenet's head without damaging her neck in a "throwing" or "banging against something" theory. Remember this isn't JUST a comminuted skull fracture, but her skull was almost FULLY CRACKED IN HALF. That's a lot of force.

    Perhaps I'll just have to disagree while saying I honestly don't know the answers. I wish we had a medical examiner who would grace us in layman's terms with a complete explanation about all this.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  2. #62
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    When my son hit the ground and fractured his skull, he was going perhaps 7 mph? That is a rough guess, but he had a lot of momentum and hit the ground hard, yet he got only a mild to moderate fracture with no bone punched out and ;ittle interior swelling. He had a little bleeding inside his brain, but it caused him no symptoms after the accident. I saw his CAT scan and you can see the break, but it's not horrible. He did have swelling on that side of his head. When JonBenet's skull was cracked as it was, she would have been unconscious from then on. And I would imagine her head would have been very swollen in that area.

    Having just had experience with a child getting an accidental skull fracture, I cannot believe that JonBenet's fracture was the result of an accidental toss against any surface or even a protruding object. She might have been injured from such an accident, maybe knocked out, but that crack was caused by a tremendous force. Whoever hit her meant to hurt her, maybe was angry enough to want to kill her. And, the person had the physical strength to wield an object that did the job. For myself, I have a tough time believing Patsy was that strong. I can see her losing her temper at JonBenet, and maybe being rough with her, but I can't see the head blow coming from Patsy. I know many people here don't see John as the prime suspect, but he's there for me.

    Dang, that hole looks like the shape of a putter to me. "Did you get my golf clubs?" said JR to Pam Paugh.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    Here's a good wikipedia definition of the various skull fractures and terminology. Notice the definition of how a "linear" fracture occurs:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_fracture
    This description makes me think how fortunate we were than our son wasn't dead or severely brain damaged when he fell off his skateboard. God really just spared him. I try to remember that when he's acting like any old 14-year-old boy.


    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  4. #64

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    I agree with you heymom, in the blow being very forceful and deliberate, not a fall or throw.

    But I disagree with the idea a bat or heavy metal maglight or golf club, with the physics of a hard swing on top of a six year old skull, needed a strong man to inflict that kind of damage. If children with hard bats weren't dangerous enough to cause head injury, why do t-ball players wear helmets? Why do manufacturers make bats for small children out of soft materials?

    I'm not saying that it couldn't have been John. Just that it didn't HAVE to be John, as far as I can tell.

    Looking at the wikipedia definitions, I don't think JonBenet's fracture happened along the line where her skull hadn't fused strongly, right? That would have taken less strenth, but it doesn't look like that was the case to me.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by heymom
    This description makes me think how fortunate we were than our son wasn't dead or severely brain damaged when he fell off his skateboard. God really just spared him. I try to remember that when he's acting like any old 14-year-old boy.


    I know, heymom. My son was a skateboarder, and looking back, I had no idea.... Scares me to think about it.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    I agree with you heymom, in the blow being very forceful and deliberate, not a fall or throw.

    But I disagree with the idea a bat or heavy metal maglight or golf club, with the physics of a hard swing on top of a six year old skull, needed a strong man to inflict that kind of damage. If children with hard bats weren't dangerous enough to cause head injury, why do t-ball players wear helmets? Why do manufacturers make bats for small children out of soft materials?
    Lawyers?
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    I know, heymom. My son was a skateboarder, and looking back, I had no idea.... Scares me to think about it.
    Best not to think about it, if he's not skating now. When I see kids on a board w/o a helmet I want to stop and yell at them...as if that would do any good!

    I can tell you I will never, ever be the same after that day. Never.
    "We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be." - C.S. Lewis

    MY OPINIONS - DO NOT COPY THEM ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET!

  8. #68

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    This makes me want to hold my babies close, I can tell you that:

    http://www.thamburaj.com/skull_fractures.htm

    Poor JonBenet. Once her skull was cracked in half, her life was over. Here is an illustration of a child with a comminuted depressed skull fracture:

    http://www.indexedvisuals.com/script...?id=130N-02483

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  9. #69

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    This might help us because it's about skull fractures in children:

    http://www.sbstruth.com/Fractures.htm

    Fractures

    Skull Fractures:

    The classic interpretation of infantile skull fractures is that anything but a non-widely spaced simple linear fracture of the parietal bone is due to non-accidental injury (Kravitz, et. al.). Such fractures would include depressed, stellate, comminuted or other complex types of skull fractures. Many believe that falls less than 3 feet only rarely produce any kind of skull fracture and skull fractures only occur when extremely violent forces are brought to bear on the infant. Others (Weber, Plunkett) have demonstrated that simple as well as complex fractures of the skull can occur from "short" falls. Skull fractures do not necessarily cause signs or symptoms, and may not be associated with underlying dural or brain injury (Shutzman and Greenes). Very young infants (<6 months) may have major cranial deformation due to an impact but no skull fracture, because their skulls are malleable and elastic, whereas older children have more rigid adult-like ossified skulls and are more vulnerable to skull fractures. However, the fracture threshold for an infant is approximately 10% that of a child or adult (Goldsmith - personal communication, Marguiles and Thibault). A special pattern of bilateral skull fracture can occur when crushing forces occur against the infant skull. Skull fractures cannot occur without impact of the head against a rigid object. They cannot occur with shaking.

    Skull fractures are caused by a deformation of the skull due to impact of some kind. The likelihood that a child will suffer a skull fracture depends on the force, location of the impact, age of the child, and biologic/mechanic characteristics/properties of the skull at the point of impact. Children with open sutures and more flexible skulls are not as likely to fracture in short falls as are older children with fully developed enclosed skulls.

    Simple Linear Fractures: Fractures that follow one linear pattern.

    Multiple Fractures, Complex Fractures or Fractures: These fractures are said to require a greater degree of force. Skull Fractures from a fall to a flat surface generally show an impact site with one or several fracture lines radiating from the point of impact whereas falls to raised surfaces, or blunt impact with an object can show depressed fractures.

    Depressed Fractures or Fractures with a "Punch Out" Fractures in which bone fragments are pushed inward (looks like a hole punched out). Generally thought to be seen when a person falls on a sharp corner or on a flat surface with a raised object on it (rock on a tile floor or barrett on a child's head). Also seen with blunt force trauma (hammer to the head) or missile trauma (gunshot wound). However, a depressed fracture may be found with an impact to a flat surface.

    Compound Depressed Fractures: Fractures with multiple lines and a larger bone fragments depressed inward from the skull cavity. Generally seen with blunt force trauma and falls to surfaces with raised edges or objects. These generally require medical intervention and/or surgery to prevent serious brain damage or disorder.

    Temporal Bone Fractures:
    Longitudinal: Front to back skull fractures of the skull thought to be caused by blunt force trauma to the head around the face, frontal or occipital regions. Can also be caused by compression of the head from front to back.

    Transverse Fracture: Side to side fractures of the skull caused by impact or compression to the sides of the head.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #70
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    I changed my mind. I think a round object like the edge of a flashlight could have made the hole in the skull.

  11. #71
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    I vacillate between the heavy maglight and a golf club. Possibly the bat, but there was also something else mentioned on some sites on the case. In some of the crime scene photos of the wineceller, there is a log grabber (from a set of fireplace tools) lying on the floor against the wall a few feet from the door and a few feet from where the body was. I am sure the Rs had a fireplace, so the wineceller was an odd place for it to be.
    From the descriptions of a depressed fracture, and also from her autopsy- I think that JBR's misplaced piece of skull was actually forced inward, though it did not seem to go into the brain. I don't recall ever seeing that her skull or face was swollen- either as observed by LA when she was "found" or by the coroner. This may be why he also felt there was an hour or less from the skull fracture to her death. If she'd lived longer, there would have been much more swelling.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  12. #72
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    I agree with you DeeDee. That log grabber always bothered me down there.
    I do feel as if JonBenet was hit deliberately to kill her. I know nothing is etched in stone. But I've been around children enough, that I do believe JonBenet's was deliberate. Whoever killed her wanted her dead. Or was mad enough to want her dead at "that" time.
    Anger can make someone do a lot of things. But to continue to live had to take a lot of denial. And that is likely.
    Jamie

    Life is a journey, always learning what you can, always loving the best you can and realizing you are never alone.



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