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  1. #73

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    [KK]:
    This might help us because it's about skull fractures in children:

    http://www.sbstruth.com/Fractures.htm

    Fractures

    Skull Fractures:

    The classic interpretation of infantile skull fractures is that anything but a non-widely spaced simple linear fracture of the parietal bone is due to non-accidental injury (Kravitz, et. al.). Such fractures would include depressed, stellate, comminuted or other complex types of skull fractures. Many believe that falls less than 3 feet only rarely produce any kind of skull fracture and skull fractures only occur when extremely violent forces are brought to bear on the infant. Others (Weber, Plunkett) have demonstrated that simple as well as complex fractures of the skull can occur from "short" falls. Skull fractures do not necessarily cause signs or symptoms, and may not be associated with underlying dural or brain injury (Shutzman and Greenes). Very young infants (<6 months) may have major cranial deformation due to an impact but no skull fracture, because their skulls are malleable and elastic, whereas older children have more rigid adult-like ossified skulls and are more vulnerable to skull fractures. However, the fracture threshold for an infant is approximately 10% that of a child or adult (Goldsmith - personal communication, Marguiles and Thibault). A special pattern of bilateral skull fracture can occur when crushing forces occur against the infant skull. Skull fractures cannot occur without impact of the head against a rigid object. They cannot occur with shaking.

    Skull fractures are caused by a deformation of the skull due to impact of some kind. The likelihood that a child will suffer a skull fracture depends on the force, location of the impact, age of the child, and biologic/mechanic characteristics/properties of the skull at the point of impact. Children with open sutures and more flexible skulls are not as likely to fracture in short falls as are older children with fully developed enclosed skulls.

    Simple Linear Fractures: Fractures that follow one linear pattern.

    Multiple Fractures, Complex Fractures or Fractures: These fractures are said to require a greater degree of force. Skull Fractures from a fall to a flat surface generally show an impact site with one or several fracture lines radiating from the point of impact whereas falls to raised surfaces, or blunt impact with an object can show depressed fractures.

    Depressed Fractures or Fractures with a "Punch Out" Fractures in which bone fragments are pushed inward (looks like a hole punched out). Generally thought to be seen when a person falls on a sharp corner or on a flat surface with a raised object on it (rock on a tile floor or barrett on a child's head). Also seen with blunt force trauma (hammer to the head) or missile trauma (gunshot wound). However, a depressed fracture may be found with an impact to a flat surface.
    Compound Depressed Fractures: Fractures with multiple lines and a larger bone fragments depressed inward from the skull cavity. Generally seen with blunt force trauma and falls to surfaces with raised edges or objects. These generally require medical intervention and/or surgery to prevent serious brain damage or disorder.

    Temporal Bone Fractures:
    Longitudinal: Front to back skull fractures of the skull thought to be caused by blunt force trauma to the head around the face, frontal or occipital regions. Can also be caused by compression of the head from front to back.

    Transverse Fracture: Side to side fractures of the skull caused by impact or compression to the sides of the head.
    Thanks for the link, KK.
    Interesting that it says depressed skull fractures can be made through impact with flat surfaces also.

  2. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox
    I changed my mind. I think a round object like the edge of a flashlight could have made the hole in the skull.
    I looked at the picture again where Dr. Spitz is doing the experiment and can see it now too. Since it is only a part of the round object which has the impact with the skull, this part indeed has a roughly rectangular shape.
    Also, it can be assumed that Spitz conducted the experiment with actually cracking a model of a skull (or even a real skull - IIRC, Dr. Spitz does experiments with dead bodies also), and the maglite did produce a rectanguar punched-out hole in the skull.

    But I'm not sure if the maglite WAS the weapon though. I think another object could have produced this wound also. Maybe her head was slammed against the bedpost?

    http://crimeshots.com/CrimeScene2.html

    Even impact with a flat surface can produce a punched-out hole in the skull (see the part I bolded in the quote of the # 73 post - the link is from KK).

  3. #75
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
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    The Lone Star State
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    827

    Default skull fracture

    The word displaced in this context doesn't mean that the bone came up out of the fracture - it simply means the bone was moved from it's original position and most likely means that it was pushed inward. ( This is in answer to a poster who seemed confused about this term)
    I believe that the fracture is probably the result of an object being brought down with enough force to cause the displaced fracture and the linear fracture was secondary to that fracture. I base that belief on the location of the fracture. It would be an awkward situation that would cause a child to have a fracture that high on the side of the skull. She would have to fall sideways and be almost upside down (imo)
    Also - I am not a golfer but if you hit someone with a golf club, wouldn't you hit them with the back of the bottom part of the club? I was wondering because if she was hit with a golf club it would have to be with the side of the bottom part of the club. I tend to believe she was hit with the maglite because it fits the depressed fracture well and because the maglite/batteries had no fingerprints.

  4. #76
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    2,897

    Default Hi Texan...

    I agree with you about the maglite flashlight being the weapon that caused JonBenet's injury. I have thought this since the first time I heard about the maglite, where it was found and that it had been wiped clean (including the batteries wiped clean of prints).

    It always seemed to me that rather than stun gunning a pig and wiggling himself down an impossible basement window, Louser Smit might have worked on measurements of the maglite and skull fracture, and displacement force experiments with the maglite and a skull (an actual likely piece of evidence found in the home where the murder occured)....Surely such experiments would have been much more productive than the foolish antics that Louser performed and publisized so dramatically.

    Voyager

  5. #77

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    Thanks, Texan. I love it when you medical professionals give us the benefit of your expertise. You da bomb!

    I also agree that the linear fracture is part of the equation that can't be left out. Reading the info, it seems the original comminuted fracture led to the linear fracture, which means that the force was tremendous. So again, how did that happen on the top/side of her head without breaking/injuring her neck in a fall or throw?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  6. #78

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    Yes, Voyager, it is amazing the lengths Smit went to only to end up with "possibly" and "maybe" and "could have" regarding dust ruffles and suitcases and packing peanuts and a mark on the wall. Especially when he had the ACTUAL EVIDENCE NO INTRUDER WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE PROVIDED BY THE RAMSEYS THEMSELVES!

    If memory serves, Dr. Spitzer did use actual corpses to test the maglight against the injury to JonBenet's head, didn't he? I think I remember reading that at some point.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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    3 Dimensional

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  7. #79

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    DeeDee and JoeJame, can you remember where that photo might be online, with the fire poker/log jammer? The reason I ask is...and don't quote me on this...it seems that once upon a time, that fire poker turned out to be a false photo...? Staged by someone? Can't really remember exactly, though, and may be mistaken, but it was discussed, so if you have the picture url handy, it might jog my or someone else's memory on this. Thanks in advance.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Texan
    I believe that the fracture is probably the result of an object being brought down with enough force to cause the displaced fracture and the linear fracture was secondary to that fracture.
    A doctor who posts on another forum (her credentials have been verified by the board admin) is of the same opinion. She also pointed out that if JonBenet's head had been slammed against a hard and flat surface, the brain would have shown indicators of a 'contrecoup' injury, but there was only very minimal contusion at the tip of the left temporal lobe.
    [Texan]:
    I base that belief on the location of the fracture. It would be an awkward situation that would cause a child to have a fracture that high on the side of the skull. She would have to fall sideways and be almost upside down (imo)
    From the autopsy report:
    At the superior extension of the is area of
    hemorrhage is a linear to comminuted skull fracture which
    extends from the right occipital to posteroparietal area
    forward tot he right frontal area across the parietal skull.
    In the posteroparietal area of this fracture is a roughly
    rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull measuring one
    and three-quarters by one-half inch.
    Am I reading this right: the punched-out piece of bone was on the right side of the skull toward the back of the head ('posteroparietal')?

    And the energy from that blow then 'spread', producing the linear to comminuted skull fracture?

    [Thanks so much btw Texan for directing me to the book about the Penny Scaggs case: "The Good Wife"]. I have devoured that book - fascinating, isn't it, how the defense (despite overwhelming evidence against Penny's husband!) tried to build their case on unsourced DNA under the victim's fingernails - DNA which in all probability got there through lab contamination, although it was a very reputable lab in which the testing was done.
    Who knows if the DNA containing nine markers on JonBenet's underwear didn't get there through lab contamination also ...

    This tragic case is very interesting to compare to the Ramsey case in another respect also, since it shows how much lying and deceit can be hidden behind the sugar-coated facade of the 'perfect couple']

  9. #81

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    Also - I am not a golfer but if you hit someone with a golf club, wouldn't you hit them with the back of the bottom part of the club? I was wondering because if she was hit with a golf club it would have to be with the side of the bottom part of the club. I tend to believe she was hit with the maglite because it fits the depressed fracture well and because the maglite/batteries had no fingerprints.
    I'm not a golfer either, but even if I were, I just can't see Patsy swinging a golf club or a baseball bat at her daughter in such a situation. I can see Burke doing this, but not Patsy. I can visualize her grabbing on impulse a smaller object which happened to be lying nearby, but taking a golf club or a baseball bat, aiming and swinging it at her child - I have immense difficulty imagining such a scenario.

  10. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    I'm not a golfer either, but even if I were, I just can't see Patsy swinging a golf club or a baseball bat at her daughter in such a situation. I can see Burke doing this, but not Patsy. I can visualize her grabbing on impulse a smaller object which happened to be lying nearby, but taking a golf club or a baseball bat, aiming and swinging it at her child - I have immense difficulty imagining such a scenario.
    Could she not have been pushed with such force that she fell into something (bath or sink) and then lost her footing and fell slamming her head on the floor causing the 8/12" crack to happen. BOESP says that there was no underlying tissue damage and that would only happen if she were PUSHED into something rather than being hit.

  11. #83

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    Rashomon, I've posted linkds to the autopsy photo of JB's skull for you several times. Do you not want to look at it? I understand if that's the case, but it does clear up the location of the skull fractures and how serious they are.

    I agree it seems in the "head blow" theory, Burke is more likely to have done this. At his age, he had no ability to form intent, as he couldn't have known the true meaning of "death". That's a legal distinction already determined in law regarding minors of his age at the time.

    But there are other theories about that blow that don't include Burke, as you know.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  12. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by sboyd
    Could she not have been pushed with such force that she fell into something (bath or sink) and then lost her footing and fell slamming her head on the floor causing the 8/12" crack to happen. BOESP says that there was no underlying tissue damage and that would only happen if she were PUSHED into something rather than being hit.
    I don't think that is possible considering the location of the comminuted fracture. I have mentioned several times it seems such an impact would also show up in her neck bones at autopsy, but no one has addressed this. It seems logical to me. If I'm not making sense on that issue, sorry. Maybe I'm just wrong on that question. Anyway, I guess I've said enough.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
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