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  1. #25

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    I am happy for the McCanns that they have so many influential people to help them to find Madeleine. I pray that little girl will be found and that she will be able to come back home soon.

    I'm certain that the McCann's felt that they were in a very safe place and felt comfortable with the arrangements they had made for checking in on their children. There is no indication that they, or any of the other parents there, were not loving caregivers. I can't wish anything horrible enough on the person or persons who stole that baby from her bed. It breaks my heart to think how frightened she must be and I say that in sincere hope that she's still alive.

    From all of this tragedy maybe the positive that will come out of it is that when you are not on your home turf you can not ever be relaxed about who might be lurking near by.

    Little
    No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -Heraclitus Fragments c. 500 BC

  2. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little View Post
    I told myself I wasn't going to get back into this case again. Just goes to show you that I hardly ever listen.

    Anyway, IMO we are comparing apples to oranges when it come to what has been acceptable between two cultures and apples to apples in the case of the discrepancy of social status.

    It seems that in some countries outside our own (the US) there is not the fear of predators that we have here. If there were, then I can't imagine that the McCanns would have left their children alone. It only takes a minute, or a few seconds for that matter, for a child disappear. Here, being minutes away from them would not be acceptable behavior.

    Still, would this be treated the same way if the parents were not of the social status that the McCanns are? Let's say it's a lower income couple who went out for wings and a few beers with their friends. They were across the street at a local bar, they went back every half hour to check on their children, and one of them went missing. Would there be a million dollar fund set up for them? Would celebrities come rushing to their aid? It's not that I think the rush to help them is in any way a bad thing. IMO that was a tremendous outpouring of compassion and that's never a bad thing. However, the couple who would have gone out for a beer are truly no different than the ones who go out for a nice meal and wine. People who work at the local factory need to relax just as much as people who work as doctors. People leave their sleeping child in a car to run into a store for "just a minute". People who have very small children need to be hyper vigilant about their safety no matter what their social status. Terrible things happen no matter what a person's social status is. That's just a sad fact of life.

    Most anyone who has ever been responsible for another person's safety can refelct back on mistakes. Fortunately, most of those mistakes do not have the tragic results of this case. There's no way to know all the dangers we may have dodged. All we can do is the best we can to minimize the opportunities.

    Little
    Well said, Little. Your post offers a lot of food for thought.

  3. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    24

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    Cherokee, your scenario is plausible. I don't know what was the motivation of the perpetrator. If it was a kidnap for money, they could have chosen one of the twins, but maybe it had to do with a pedophilia. The twins were lucky that night. Maddie wasn't.

    Everyone of us have our sins and nobody is out there to cast stones to the parents. We all have made mistakes all along our lives but we are completely responsible for them, for the good and for the bad. And here is the point: the lack of responsibility of the parents led to one of their children's disappearance. It's not like "well, we've made a mistake, our daughter disappeared and now we must go on with our lives and forget about her." They can't make this whole sad situation disappear, as if Maddie never existed in the first place, so they will be forever charged. I don't know if they killed her or not, but they were the ones responsible for her, so I think it's fair to be suspicious of them.

    Elle, as far as the Ocean Club goes, it's weird they didn't comment about Maddie. I don't remember reading anything official from them. It's not right for a stranger to be able to enter the resort without identification. The security there should have locked the entire place long before the PJ was called. OTOH, they have the day care center working until late at night and the parents could have paid for a baby-sitter. Were they naive as they say? Ok, but stand the racket then.

    Little, your metaphor is right. It's nice to discuss things being from different countries, we learn a lot by doing so. FFJ is great for allowing this.

    I don't know the crime rate to compare Brazil to other countries. I can only speak for myself. My oldest son is 25 years old. When I got pregnant, I chose to stop everything I was doing to become a mother. It was not until my youngest (who is 23 now) went to school at age 7, that I went back to my career. It was my option, I'm the one to blame for everything good and bad that happened to them. Back then we didn't hear a lot about pedophiles, although they always existed. Even though, one of my main concerns was about kidnapping. I was terrified about it. Don't ask me why, I think it's a mother's instinct. Nowadays, I can only imagine how I'll feel when I have grandchildren. Better safe than sorry.

    You comments about social status are spot on. I read about a case once where the parents went to a bar in the corner and the apartment they left the children in caught fire and one of them died. I don't remember the details, but both parents were sentenced to prison. Nobody is dumb to think the social status doesn't matter.

    Right now we have a very sad case here. A beautiful girl named Isabela Nardoni was found near death on the grass of a high class condominium last March. She was 5 years old and died before reach the hospital. All the evidence pointed to her stepmother as being the one who attempted to strangle her and her father being the one who thrown her away from a 6th floor window to build the "intruder" theory. It become a high profile case, the news channels were all over it 24/7. After a long battle between the police and the couple's lawyers, they are in prison awaiting trial. As soon as the matter disappears from the news, they will walk away. How about the other hundreds of children who die "accidentally" at their homes every day? Children are abused and killed in many ways, everyday, and we need more responsible parenting. To love your children may not be enough. You must be responsible for them.
    Last edited by Nana; May 23, 2008, 7:24 am at Fri May 23 7:24:29 UTC 2008. Reason: to correct information

  4. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    8,381

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    Nana wrote:

    Elle, as far as the Ocean Club goes, it's weird they didn't comment about Maddie. I don't remember reading anything official from them. It's not right for a stranger to be able to enter the resort without identification. The security there should have locked the entire place long before the PJ was called. OTOH, they have the day care center working until late at night and the parents could have paid for a baby-sitter. Were they naive as they say? Ok, but stand the racket then.
    Yes, it is rather strange the Ocean Club hasn't commented on this tragic case, Nana. I think out of respect for little Madeleine McCann having gone missing on their premises, the least they could have done was make some statement about being sorry it happened at their Club and hope the little girl would be returned safely.

    The Ocean Club could also have stressed the importance of not leaving a child unguarded and encouraged parents to use the child care facilities which are available on the premises. This is the annoying factor for me, that these Services were readily available and not used by the McCanns.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  5. #29

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    It seems this is one of those case where media attention is both a blessing and a curse. All the questions that people had, IMO, were completely legitimate questions. Through the media, and the McCanns, it became a very public case. It was on TV daily. They were on TV and precious little Madelein's picture was one of the most recognizable world-wide.

    You can't control what people think or the questions they have. If you ask the public for help, the public has every right to ask questions of their own. Asking a question does not mean that you are attacking the parents, you are just trying to get a handle on what happened.

    I don't draw a comparison between the Ramseys and the McCanns because I don't think the McCanns directly harmed Madeleine, however, much of their story does mirror the other. Initially I didn't think the Ramseys harmed JonBenet. After many questions that opinion changed.

    The McCanns made a horrible, irreversible mistake leaving their children alone. I realize that this could happen even when a parent is vigilant, but the McCann's greatly increased the odds by their own actions that fateful night. IMO that's undeniable. In a perfect world a person would never have to worry about it. It's not a perfect world, parents do harm their own children, kidnappers do take children, and sometimes it takes a while to know what happened.

    Maybe if they had admitted that right up front there wouldn't have been as much suspicion surrounding them, but that's not how they went about it.

    I still hope and pray that Madeleine is safe and will be returned safely to her family. I would never wish what the McCanns are going through on anyone. It has to be a never ending nightmare.

    Little
    No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -Heraclitus Fragments c. 500 BC

  6. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brazil
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    The Ocean Club position (or lack of it) has always intrigued me, Elle. Food for thought.

    You're right, Little, this isn't a perfect world and people are not perfect. We are here to learn, every day brings a new lesson. You got what I was trying to say. I'm far from being a model mom but I was very conscious about my role when my kids were so helpless and dependant on me. It could have happened to me and I'm thankful it didn't. Now it's easier, I can share the blame with my daughters in law... (Just kidding!)

    This case breaks my heart. I feel sorry for Maddie. In any scenario you pick she's the one who paid the highest price.
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Martin Luther King Jr.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nana View Post
    The Ocean Club position (or lack of it) has always intrigued me, Elle. Food for thought.

    You're right, Little, this isn't a perfect world and people are not perfect. We are here to learn, every day brings a new lesson. You got what I was trying to say. I'm far from being a model mom but I was very conscious about my role when my kids were so helpless and dependant on me. It could have happened to me and I'm thankful it didn't. Now it's easier, I can share the blame with my daughters in law... (Just kidding!)

    This case breaks my heart. I feel sorry for Maddie. In any scenario you pick she's the one who paid the highest price.
    I'm no model mom either Nana. I have a lot to be thankful for too.

    Little
    No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -Heraclitus Fragments c. 500 BC

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little View Post
    I'm no model mom either Nana. I have a lot to be thankful for too.

    Little
    The same goes for me, Nana and Little.

  9. #33

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    The McCanns seem to blame themselves entirely for leaving their small children unattended, saying it will haunt them forever not having been there to protect Maddie.

    In leaving three small children behind alone without seeing and hearing range, they opened the door wide for such a tragedy to happen. If there was an intruder at all, that is. I'm a fence sitter in that case and recently stopped posting about it because of all the contradictory and confusing info which only muddied the waters instead of clearing them. But maybe it would be worth starting over right from square one?

    Like I said, I'm a fence sitter. Maybe doing detailed case research will help me to come down on one side of the fence. But with the many things that went wrong in the investigation, this is going to be quite difficult (if not impossible), but it is worth a try.
    Poor Maddie, how could she have vanished without a trace. This is so heartbreaking. But when we search for the truth in criminal cases, we are all victim's advocates, so to speak. The victims can't speak for themselves anymore, but we can do it for them in our quest for the truth.

    As always in criminal cases, the time line is crucial.

    - Does there exist any reliable source for when exactly Maddie was last seen alive in public?

    - when exactly did her mother report her missing ?

    Whether it was an intruder or the parents, what happened to Maddie had to have occurred within this time frame.

    In trying to establish a time line with the 'help' of eye-witness accounts, one already runs into difficulties in this case. For a party of nine people having consumed quite a bit of alcohol at the tapas bar are hardly likely to remember reliably what they did when.

    Another question: have the results of the forensic tests already have made public by an official source?
    Last edited by rashomon; May 24, 2008, 3:24 pm at Sat May 24 15:24:43 UTC 2008.

  10. #34

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    I agree rashomon. There are so darned many conflicting reports that, to me at least, it's not possible to rely on information from any one given source.

    I have a very dear friend whose beat is police/courts (for a very respected news agency). He asked me what I thought about this case right after the story broke. I told him I had no idea but felt that there were only a few possible scenarios, and of course, as with all cases, there are sub-scenarios for each.

    I wish we had a good, reliable timeline rashomon. There again, who would be the most trusted without the shadow of self preservation hanging over them?

    I just wish little Madeleine would show up.

    Little
    No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -Heraclitus Fragments c. 500 BC

  11. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    8,381

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    Timeline, rashomon and Little.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562429/Madeleine-McCann-disappearance-timeline.html

    Madeleine McCann disappearance timeline

    Strange no evidence is turning up to confirm that little Maddie may be dead (?).
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Timeline, rashomon and Little.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562429/Madeleine-McCann-disappearance-timeline.html

    Madeleine McCann disappearance timeline

    Strange no evidence is turning up to confirm that little Maddie may be dead (?).
    Thanks Elle.
    JULY 10
    Mr Murat returned to the police station in Portimao for further questioning. He went back the next day for a "confrontation" with three friends of the McCanns - Russell O Brien, Rachael Oldfield and Fiona Payne - who claimed they saw him at the scene helping with searches on the night Madeleine disappeared. Around this time police picked up a new lead and shifted the investigation towards the belief that Madeleine was dead. They focused again on the apartment, which had been rented out again to holidaying couples, and called in specialist British sniffer dogs which could detect tiny traces of blood and human remains.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562429/Madeleine-McCann-disappearance-timeline.html
    Irreparable mistake on the part of the investigators to allow the apartment to be rented so fast again.
    This reminds me of what Dr. Lee said when he inspected the Ramsey home: "Rice already cooked. Crime scene gone." (:
    [Elle]:
    Strange no evidence is turning up to confirm that little Maddie may be dead (?).
    What could have led the investigators back in July 2007 to believe she might be dead (see quote above)?

    I'd also be very interested in the time line from the moment Maddie was last seen alive until her mother reported her missing. For the crime (whatever it was - kidnapping by an intruder or homicide involving the parents) had to have occurred within that time frame.



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