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  1. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nana View Post
    Dear Elle, always ready to help. Thanks!

    This is intriguing. How come a child vanishes like that? At first, I really believed she would be found or the kidnapper (s) would call for ransom or in the worst case scenario, her body would appear. After more than a year, no clues about her, alive or dead. Unfortunately, she's not the only one.

    Rashie, many mistakes were made by everyone involved in this investigation, and I exclude no one. After Katie reported her daughter missing, the apartment was full of friends coming and going. The twins were moved to another location and were asleep throughout the commotion. It's unusual, to say the least.

    I think the investigators changed their focus after some lab results. The forensic tests were made by Portuguese and British labs and they were very slowly handed to the police.

    Another question: how is it possible that nobody besides the parents' friends saw Mr. Murat that night at the club? The staff knew him. Keep in mind it was not late at night. I'd be suspicious of him if other people claimed he was there. Even in a kidnap scenario, I don't think he's involved, or he would be in jail. For now, I think he is a bus victim.
    Do you have a source for no-one else seeing Murat on that night other than the parents' friends? Are you privy to the police files?

    There have been at least FIVE newspaper reports of independent witnesses who claim to have seen Robert Murat hanging around the apartments that night. Not that I believe the newspapers - so much trash has been reported in this case that I find it astonishing that ANYONE would still quote them as a reliable source.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  2. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles View Post
    The twins hair was tested. It wasn't a blood test and Calpol isn't a sedative.
    What is Calpol?

    When was the twins' hair tested?

    I'm interested in the general question whether all sedatives will show up in hair analysis even after the sedative has been discontinued for e. g. some weeks.

    Re Jane Tanner's statement: where exactly was the man she saw carrying a child?

  3. #51
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    Here are some news reports of independent witnesses who claim to have seen Murat outsise the apartment.

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...icle535992.ece

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...apartment.html

    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...ect/article.do

    This is in response to claims that *only* the parents' friends claim to have seen him.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  4. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles View Post
    Here are some news reports of independent witnesses who claim to have seen Murat outsise the apartment.

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...icle535992.ece

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...apartment.html

    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...ect/article.do

    This is in response to claims that *only* the parents' friends claim to have seen him.
    Is Murat still an arguido?

  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    What is Calpol?

    When was the twins' hair tested?

    I'm interested in the general questions whether allsedatives will show up in hair analysis even after the sedative has been discontinued for e. g. some weeks.
    Calpol is the "sedative" which it was claimed the McCanns had OD'd Madeleine on. The tabloids made a huge fuss about it last year. It's a paediatric painkiller similar to Tylenol. There is a mistaken belief that calpol sends children to sleep. It doesn't. However, a child who is in pain or feverish will be enabled to settle down to sleep if given Calpol because Calpol brings down the fever and kills the pain. This was all discussed at Crimelibrary last year. Elvis wrote an excellent post explaining it.

    The twins hair was tested fairly soon after the McCanns returned home from Portugal whenever that was (August?). The McCanns commissioned their own tests as part of their defence dossier.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2697257.ece
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  6. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    Has Murat been declared an arguido also?
    Yes. He was declared arguido before the McCanns. He is still arguido as are they.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  7. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles View Post
    Calpol is the "sedative" which it was claimed the McCanns had OD'd Madeleine on. The tabloids made a huge fuss about it last year. It's a paediatric painkiller similar to Tylenol. There is a mistaken belief that calpol sends children to sleep. It doesn't. However, a child who is in pain or feverish will be enabled to settle down to sleep if given Calpol because Calpol brings down the fever and kills the pain. This was all discussed at Crimelibrary last year. Elvis wrote an excellent post explaining it.

    The twins hair was tested fairly soon after the McCanns returned home from Portugal whenever that was (August?). The McCanns commissioned their own tests as part of their defence dossier.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2697257.ece
    Thanks for the info, Jay. Where was the Calpol found?

    Does anyone know whether all sedatives show up in hair analysis?

    Re the time line: when was Maddie last seen alive in public?

    I'm also in interested in the picture showing a man in the background of a photo which shows Gerry playing with the children at the resort. He seemed to be watching them.
    I'm not sure if remember it accurately, but wasn't that same man also seen in a picture walking together with Rober Murat?

    Has this man's identity been established?

  8. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    Thanks for the info, Jay. Where was the Calpol found?

    Does anyone know whether all sedatives show up in hair analysis?

    Re the time line: when was Maddie last seen alive in public?

    I'm also in interested in the picture showing a man in the background of a photo which shows Gerry playing with the children at the resort. He seemed to be watching them.
    I'm not sure if remember it accurately, but wasn't that same man also seen in a picture walking together with Rober Murat?

    Has this man's identity been established?
    There would undoubtedly be Calpol in the apartment - every British parent carries a supply. I have sachets of Calpol in my handbag!

    I think Madeleine was last seen "in public" at her nursery tea. Can't remember the time exactly but 5/6ish would be about right. Then according to reports, Gerry was playing tennis and Kate took the kids back to the apartment to jammy them and put them to bed. One of the friends (a bloke) called in to check on them sometime between 6-7 (again I cannot remember the exact times). Then Gerry finished his tennis and went back to the apartment and the McCanns went to the Tapas bar about 8ish.

    The McCanns have not spoken publicly about any of this - this is all pieced together by different reports. The McCanns have been threatened with imprisonment if they speak about the case publicly and they cannot do so for that reason. To all intents and purposes, they are desperate to be able to give their version and put straight all the nonsense which has been published and perpetuated about the case. The day will come when they can, but in the meantime they are putting their energy into the campaign for a missing child alert in Europe as well as the Madeleine campaign.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  9. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles View Post
    I am very sad to see this thread turn into little more than tabloid gossip being discussed as though it were fact.

    FFJ is better than that IMO.
    I am sincerely sorry that you feel this way about the discussion Jayelles. This is a case near and dear to you. That being said, how do you suggest we discuss this case, what sources would you suggest be used, and how is this any different from the discussions about JonBenet or any other case that is still open? Can you tell us which tabloids & newspapers are of questionable integrity? I know which ones are of that caliber in the states, but I have no idea which ones fall into that category in Europe.

    All we have to go by is our own experiences in the county where we reside. I realize, now, that what's an acceptable, and considered a safe practice where you reside is not necessarily the way things are in the states.

    The discussion about Madeleine is because we care about this tiny child and her fate.

    Little
    No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -Heraclitus Fragments c. 500 BC

  10. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little View Post
    I am sincerely sorry that you feel this way about the discussion Jayelles. This is a case near and dear to you. That being said, how do you suggest we discuss this case, what sources would you suggest be used, and how is this any different from the discussions about JonBenet or any other case that is still open? Can you tell us which tabloids & newspapers are of questionable integrity? I know which ones are of that caliber in the states, but I have no idea which ones fall into that category in Europe.

    All we have to go by is our own experiences in the county where we reside. I realize, now, that what's an acceptable, and considered a safe practice where you reside is not necessarily the way things are in the states.

    The discussion about Madeleine is because we care about this tiny child and her fate.

    Little

    There are so few FACTS about the case in the public domain Little. Basically, the only facts we know for sure are that Madeleine McCann went missing and that her parents and Murat are arguidos. Many of the stories in the public domain have come from Portuguese tabloids and have no basis in fact. Some of them have been utterly scandalous. It has astonished me that despite the fact that we know so many of these stories were simply made up - that people are still willing to believe the next story that comes along. Quite frankly, if someone tells me a porky once, I am suspicious of them from that point onwards - never mind being so gullible as to be taken in time after time after time by the same source telling the porkies.

    If the McCanns have their arguido status lifted, I think there will be much more to discuss. That could happen at any time. I think it will anyway because I don't think there is any evidence to support the theory that the McCanns harmed their daughter.

    The Times and the BBC are fairly reputable sources. You can take the rest with a huge pinch of salt. The Times has a reasonable timeline of the case. I used to buy the Daily Mail because it was a good read, but I stopped buying it last year because I was so shocked at the garbage they were printing. The Portuguese media were publishing sensational fairy stories and the British media were reporting that "the Portuguese media are reporting that...." It was awful. Each day the headlines changed - one day there would be a sensational headline, next day there would be a counter headline. People were utterly sick of it - so much so that Sir Trevor McDonald made a programme about the garbage being published and some fairly respected journalists spoke of their disgust for the unprecendented lies being reported as though they were fact. Mostly the stories didn't live up to their headlines. "Madeleine McCann found!... in dream I had last night...." type of stuff.

    Forums such as The Mirror were snakepits - worse than Jerry Springer types. Certain posters were starting threads saying they had inside knowledge that .blah blah.... and next thing, others were running with it as though it were a proven fact. I monitored several of these threads and they came to nothing. Sometimes they promised that the news they were bringing would be proven within days - still nothing. One poster did this several times and STILL he had folk willing to believe it "this time". These forums were so bad that I wasn't in the least surprised when they got closed down. If you go to the Mirror forums you will see that it is forbidden to even discuss the McCann case. That is because the Mirror knows that the McCanns have good grounds to sue them.

    There is currently little in the news here about the case - because there is no news.

    I don't think you can compare the McCann case and the Ramsey case. So much of the Ramsey evidence and documents found their way into the media - so there is plenty to discuss. Plus the ramseys went on TV and gave interviews and we know they refused their police interviews and polygraphs... The McCanns didn't lawyer up initially, they've kept their focus on trying to find Madeleine, but they haven't spoken publicly about the case because they are forbidden to. I am critical of the ramseys because I think they hindered the investigation. I think the McCanns made a godamnedawful mistake which they'll live with for all eternity, but I see no point in beating them up over and over and over and over.... That's not going to get Madeleine back and I think it only serves to satisfy the folk doing the bashing's lust for bashing. Some of the self-righteous claptrap I've read sticks in my thrapple - to put it bluntly.

    Speculation is one thing, but discussing a malicious theory as though it were fact is quite another. The media made up a lot of stories because they had no facts to report. IMO, it's just wrong to perpetuate this misinformation.

    I don't see bashing the McCanns as being on a par with bashing the Ramseys. Rather, I see it as being on a par with bashing the Whites.

    I hestitated for a long time about saying what I really feel about this, but I've done it now. My choice was leave the forum for good or speak up because quite frankly, I cannot stand the misinformation and inhumane parent bashing for the sake of it.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  11. #59

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    Jayelles wrote:
    The Times and the BBC are fairly reputable sources.
    Thank you Jayelles. When I was searching some news stories I was going to bring something here from The Times but just was not sure what their reputation is.

    Not to put too fine a line on it but just as Michael Tracey produced his doc. in England because, IMO, there was not as much public information there as here, the same might apply to what I or others read.

    JMPO, I don't think the McCann's harmed their daughter, however, I can see why when someone first delves into this case that the McCanns are closely looked at.

    I find this case so darned frustrating.

    Little
    No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -Heraclitus Fragments c. 500 BC

  12. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little View Post
    Jayelles wrote:


    Thank you Jayelles. When I was searching some news stories I was going to bring something here from The Times but just was not sure what their reputation is.

    Not to put too fine a line on it but just as Michael Tracey produced his doc. in England because, IMO, there was not as much public information there as here, the same might apply to what I or others read.

    JMPO, I don't think the McCann's harmed their daughter, however, I can see why when someone first delves into this case that the McCanns are closely looked at.

    I find this case so darned frustrating.

    Little
    I too think it was only right that they were looked at and the McCanns have said that too. Like the vanDams, they wanted to be investigated so that the police could move past them and look for Madeleine.

    There have been 3/4 documentaries about the case - two tried to deal with the misinformation which seemed to swamp us for weeks last September (?) They were all carefully made and presented the facts that were known. A couple included interviews with experts. One tried to reconstruct the abduction to see if the timescales were possible (they were). Other experts agree that the McCanns didn't have "opportunity" to do what they would have had to do.

    I think people see what they want to see. The Mirror forum was full of people seeing guilt in their demeanours. I saw only a strong man trying to be stronger and his wife totally broken. Kate cried a lot in the last documentary which aired a few weeks ago.

    People talk about their class giving them an advantage. I think this is so unfair too because whilst they are both doctors, they both come from simple working class backgrounds. They achieved their success through honest hard work. Kate in particular sounds very working class. Gerry has a strong Glaswegian accent, but it's a fairly well-spoken Glaswegian accent (not a posh Glaswegian accent which sounds QUITE different). His careful accent might have come about through his parents correcting him as he grew up or it might have come about through him living and working in England where Scots aren't understood well unless they slow down and refine their accents. I understand he is also something of an expert in his field of medicine and has been used to speaking at conferences so he will have developed careful speech through that too. They certainly aren't posh people and they do not appear to have forgotten where they came from either.

    I've lost a lot of respect for the "middle" newspapers here. In particular, the Daily Mail and the Express indulged themselves in a lot of speculative reporting. It's the kind of thing you expect from the Sun and the Mirror. They were sorely reprimanded on the Sir Trevor McDonald programme about the case. They weren't reporting facts about the case either, they were reporting what the Portuguese media was reporting. It was a double edged thing because they weren't trying to claim it as fact, yet many people were taking the headlines as case information without bothering to continue reading the story. Threads were appearing in the trashy forums like the Mirror forum and no-one was bothering to discuss anything other than the headline.

    For example, in a post above, Nana refers to a poll where only 30% of Brits think they are innocent. Yes that was the headline in the tabloids but few people actually went and looked at the poll itself and ask "innocent of what?". The assumption is that only 30% of Brits think they are innocent of madeleine's murder but that actually wasn't what the poll was about. Such a poll would be unlawful here. The question was "Do you think the McCanns are guilty of any wrongdoing including leaving their children alone?" I was surprised that as many as 30% answered yes to that! But the poll questions were twisted into a sensational and misleading headline which merely served to feed the vultures and sadly, I've seen it perpetuated many times on discussion forums.

    There was an abundance of other false stories which were touted as "fact" - possibly the worst being that Gerry wasn't Madeleine's biological father and that her "real" father had been traced to Birmingham and eliminated! This was printed by a Portuguese tabloid who said they stood by it. That was the point at which the McCanns started threatening legal action. It is true that Madeleine was conceived by IVF but we have such powerful data protection laws here that it would possibly take months if not years of going through the courts to obtain the identity of a sperm donor father had that been the case - and it wasn't. Apart from anything, sperm donor fathers don'tget to know the identity of the children they father anyway, nor do the mothers know the identity of the donor so suggesting that this one did and was "eliminated" was truly far fetched.... but this story pretty much summed up the quality of the reporting on the case. It wasn't just inaccurate - it was completely fabricated. How wicked is that?

    There is no doubt that the McCanns made a serious error of judgement in leaving their children sleeping in the apartment and they have paid the ultimate price for that error... but to suggest they did it maliciously or that they intentionally placed their children at risk is simply ridiculous. God only knows the pain they must feel in their heart to know that their decisions as parents would have the consequences that they had but I believe them when they say that they truly thought it would be OK because I have had many similar types of holiday and like countless other British parents, I have used a baby listening service so that myself and my husband could enjoy some adult time together in the evening. This may seem alien to other cultures, but it is pretty commonplace in Europe. It is pretty much unheard of for things to go wrong.

    Most of the McCann forums are either idle or closed. The most vicious ones closed down - almost certainly following threat of legal action. Others died a natural death because there have been no developments in the case and all that is left to do is either gossip about/attack the parents or speculate about tabloid stories. The most intelligent posters leave when that happens so there's no decent discussion going on - just a lot of moaning about the parents leaving the children. It grows old very quickly.

    I studied group dynamics at teacher training college and it's always fascinated me. I saved one Mirror thread where one of the leading lights in McCann bashing complained that her partner had left her because he couldn't tolerate her stand in the McCann case. This poster was quite frankly a vicious witch and I thought it was no wonder her partner threw the keys at her - I'm sure he saw that she wasn't a very nice person! Unbelievably, SHE blamed the McCann case for her broken relationship and her buddies all agreed! It was quite fascinating. If I ever write a book about the case, that thread will pretty much sum up the Mirror forum!
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission



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