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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles View Post
    There would undoubtedly be Calpol in the apartment - every British parent carries a supply. I have sachets of Calpol in my handbag!
    I just googled Calpol and it seems the main ingedient is paracetamol, a very mild pain killer. Painkillers containing paracetamol are widely sold here in Germany also, and I too always carry some paracetamol tablets in my handbag - they are not as harsh on the stomach as aspirin.

    I think Madeleine was last seen "in public" at her nursery tea. Can't remember the time exactly but 5/6ish would be about right. Then according to reports, Gerry was playing tennis and Kate took the kids back to the apartment to jammy them and put them to bed. One of the friends (a bloke) called in to check on them sometime between 6-7 (again I cannot remember the exact times). Then Gerry finished his tennis and went back to the apartment and the McCanns went to the Tapas bar about 8ish.
    Thanks Jay for the info.

    Summing it up :

    Maddie was last seen in public around 5/6 p. m.
    Gery and Kate went to the tapas bar at around 8 p. m.
    Kate discovered Maddie missing at 10 p.m.

    - So according to this time line, if there was a kidnapping, it had to have occurred between 8 p.m and 10 p.m.

    - If there was no kidnapping and the parents were involved in Maddie's disapperance (and in case of parental involvement, death would be likely), it had to have occcurred between 5 p. m. and 8 p. m. (and suppose the friend of the McCanns checking on them between 6 and 7 saw Maddie alive, between 6/7 p. m. and 8 p. m).

    This would be an extremely narrow time frame for the McCanns to have gone trough such a traumatic experience like an accidental killing of their child including disposal of the body right in the middle of a resort buzzing with people.

    Highly unlikely imo that they would have been able to get this done.

    When one considers Murat's time frame, it is just as narrow.

    If Murat was the perp, suppose he both abducted and killed Madeleine, he had to have done all that between 8 p. m. and 10 p. m. - a mere two hours.
    For at the time the search for Maddie began, if what the eye-witnesses say is true, Murat was already seen at the apartment complex.

    Again, taking into account the extremely narrow time window, imo it is unlikely he could have abducted Maddie, abused her, killed her and disposed of the body within those mere two hours.

    Unless he had an a accomplice of course.
    If Maddie was kidnapped and not killed, the question to ask is in which way Murat, if he was involved, would have profited from this crime.

    How throroughly has Murat's backgound been checked out and what did it reveal?

    How far away from the apartment complex did Murat live?
    Last edited by rashomon; May 27, 2008, 1:39 pm at Tue May 27 13:39:32 UTC 2008.

  2. #62
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    Oh my

    I've never claimed to be a "websleuth" or anything like that. I was asking and answering questions and providing links as best as I could. I know I read about the suspect being blond, even bald. Since I can't provide a link, I correct myself to say maybe it wasn't JT who said that. Maybe the pages belonged to that group you said it was being sued by Maddie's parentes and shut down. I grant it to you. That makes me a liar? I don't have any reason to lie and I take KK' words: I'm not making this up. JT's description have changed along the way, and I'm not the one who's saying this. Check the links about the subject on this page, which is not a tabloid:

    http://www.mccannfiles.com/id30.html

    As for the British pool I read, it might be the one you are talking about. I don't see where in my post I said they were not considered innocent to have killed their daughter. I didn't add the "of any wrongdoing" part? Granted. As I said, I was only commenting on something I read, I was not saying it as fact.

    Nobody here is "discussing tabloid gossip as facts." I provided my opinion and some links to "dig", if you read my posts as intended. I have the utter respect for this forum, for Tricia and her moderators and I didn't receive a word from any of them regarding the lowering of standard of the posts.
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Martin Luther King Jr.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Having a British Prime Minister as a close friend comes in handy, I guess. The same courtesy is not given to every missing child, as we all know.

    I don't know if they ever met, but to do such things to a stranger would be unlikely.

    Kate and Gerry McCann go straight to Gordon Brown in search for more powerful backers

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2477770.ece
    ...
    The Prime Minister, who has been an influential supporter of the couple, has previously persuaded the Portuguese authorities to release details of their investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance from an Algarve holiday apartment 138 days ago.
    ...
    Mr McCann spoke to Mr Brown several times and David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, twice before he and his wife were declared official suspects by Portuguese detectives 11 days ago.
    ...

    Briton suspect in Madeleine hunt

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6656451.stm

    I'm Madeleine scapegoat, man says

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6660009.stm
    ...
    Meanwhile, Madeleine's aunt, Philomena McCann, from Glasgow, is to visit the House of Commons in an effort to keep the search in the public eye.
    ...
    Glasgow MP Mohammed Sarwar, who will accompany her, said the McCann family had "the full support of the British government".

    Robert Murat - an apology

    http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/late...ogy.4085006.jp

    The British media does not do responsibility. It does stories

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...082507,00.html
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Martin Luther King Jr.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles View Post
    So you would have been happier if the McCanns had used the baby listening service which was offered by the resort?
    This isn't about any personal feelings, it's about a missing little girl, but I think everyone would have been happier if the parents hadn't lost their child. This baby listening service may be common place in Europe, this doesn't make it right. I personally think, and this is my opinion, that it is ridicule and worthless. Listening outside without actually seeing the child and assume he/she is there and safe is beyond me. But wait, I don't live in Europe...
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Martin Luther King Jr.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles View Post
    Do you have a source for no-one else seeing Murat on that night other than the parents' friends? Are you privy to the police files?

    I was answering to something that Rashie had posted. If you go back to post 36 on this thread, you'll find it. Or see the links below. No, I'm not privy to the police files. Are you?

    I never quoted any link as a reliable source neither posted a Portuguese link, although I could translate them if I wanted to do so.

    McCann friends confront Madeleine suspect

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jul/13/ukcrime.world
    ...
    Portuguese police investigating the disappearance of four-year-old Madeleine McCann are examining apparent discrepancies between statements from three friends of the family and the only named suspect in the case.
    ...

    Charlotte Pennington confirms Kate McCann's scream

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22480410-2,00.html

    Portuguese police to probe 'Madeleine dumped at sea' claim

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sea-claim.html
    ...
    Former Mark Warner nanny Charlotte Pennington said she spotted the man in a small dinghy just off the Praia da Luz seafront. She claims he was kicking at an object stored in the boat's hull.
    When she moved closer to investigate, the man - whose name she has given to Portuguese and British police - stooped out of sight then hurriedly rowed away.
    ...

    December 03, 2007:

    Witnesses place expat outside Maddie flat

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599...013933,00.html

    I won't even comment about Metodo 3 Agency. Google and see it.

    Madeleine McCann: detective agency link held

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1579...link-held.html

    Have you changed your opinion about Charlotte Pennington?

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...237#post154237
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Martin Luther King Jr.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles View Post
    The Times and the BBC are fairly reputable sources.
    So the links you provided above are not "fairly reputable sources"? Are they "tabloid gossips"?
    If the information on your dailymail link is true, and they knew the apartment was supposed to be empty, they should have warned the resort security. If this is true, why Maddie's parents don't blame the Ocean Club for their lack of security?
    If they provided evidence against Mr. Murat, why the PJ can't find any to arrest him?
    ...
    The two women, both divorcees from Maidstone, Kent, spent 11 hours with British police officers providing details of their evidence and later met private detectives from Metodo 3, the agency employed by the McCanns to find their daughter.
    ...
    Strange how "they intended to remain anonymous" and yet their photograph is in the page.

    The McCanns have not spoken publicly about any of this - this is all pieced together by different reports. The McCanns have been threatened with imprisonment if they speak about the case publicly and they cannot do so for that reason. To all intents and purposes, they are desperate to be able to give their version and put straight all the nonsense which has been published and perpetuated about the case.

    I don't get the "don't speak publicly" part. How many interviews with them are there? They have given their version since the beginning as far as I know. What is their priority? To get their daughter back, the public opinion about them or not to be imprisoned?
    As I said before, they don't depend solely on the PJ's work. They have the resources to track down whomever did this to their daughter. Bring the perpetrator to justice and put the PJ to shame.
    Or collaborate with the police:

    Madeleine McCann's parents called back to Portugal

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3705440.ece
    ...
    Friends of the couple have indicated that they would refuse to voluntarily return unless they are formally cleared of any wrongdoing.
    ...

    Will they be there on May, 29th?
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Martin Luther King Jr.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles View Post
    Many of the stories in the public domain have come from Portuguese tabloids and have no basis in fact.
    ... That's not going to get Madeleine back and I think it only serves to satisfy the folk doing the bashing's lust for bashing.
    ...
    I don't see bashing the McCanns as being on a par with bashing the Ramseys. Rather, I see it as being on a par with bashing the Whites.

    I hestitated for a long time about saying what I really feel about this, but I've done it now. My choice was leave the forum for good or speak up because quite frankly, I cannot stand the misinformation and inhumane parent bashing for the sake of it.
    Are you saying that the British media are not to blame for they simply copy the Portuguese stories? I didn't know Portugal had such a power and certainly I didn't find any "disclaimer" on the British pages. Well, unlike the British media, I sign every post I made and stick to my opinion on post 37 on this thread.

    It was never my intention to attack anyone here and I don't think I did. Maybe I was wrong since the beginning in thinking FFJ was a public forum for opinion not for documentation. If this is the case, I apologize to Tricia.

    If I wanted to bash the parents I could easily find a forum to do so. Stop asking question will help to bring her back?

    As far as I know, the Whites' children are safe and sound.

    When I first read about FFJ was in the final of Laci Peterson's case. I didn't like the posts and being against the death penalty it was hard to read. Did I try to join to tell my opinion? No, I simply closed the browser and never went back. Now, If I can't post my opinion, there's no point in being here. You could have said how you feel in a less aggressive manner. Don't think for a minute that I don't know you are smarter than me.
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Martin Luther King Jr.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nana View Post
    So the links you provided above are not "fairly reputable sources"? Are they "tabloid gossips"?
    If the information on your dailymail link is true, and they knew the apartment was supposed to be empty, they should have warned the resort security. If this is true, why Maddie's parents don't blame the Ocean Club for their lack of security?
    If they provided evidence against Mr. Murat, why the PJ can't find any to arrest him?
    ...
    The two women, both divorcees from Maidstone, Kent, spent 11 hours with British police officers providing details of their evidence and later met private detectives from Metodo 3, the agency employed by the McCanns to find their daughter.
    ...
    Strange how "they intended to remain anonymous" and yet their photograph is in the page.




    I don't get the "don't speak publicly" part. How many interviews with them are there? They have given their version since the beginning as far as I know. What is their priority? To get their daughter back, the public opinion about them or not to be imprisoned?
    As I said before, they don't depend solely on the PJ's work. They have the resources to track down whomever did this to their daughter. Bring the perpetrator to justice and put the PJ to shame.
    Or collaborate with the police:

    Madeleine McCann's parents called back to Portugal

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3705440.ece
    ...
    Friends of the couple have indicated that they would refuse to voluntarily return unless they are formally cleared of any wrongdoing.
    ...

    Will they be there on May, 29th?
    I really don't know what is so difficult to understand about this. They are not allowed to speak about the investigation period. They haven't spoken about the investigation. They have spoken about Madeleine, they have appealed for information, they have spoken about the campaign. They have spoken about how much they miss Madeleine and how much they regret their actions. They are NOT allowed to speak about the investigation. They have been told that if they do so, they could face two year in prison. Whilst THEY have retained their enforced silence, the Portuguese police and media have been having a field day with false stories and smears. Where is the justice there? please don't tell me that any outrage at that is "xenophobia".

    Gordon Brown got involved because of the diplomatic issues. This has been an extremely high profile case involving foreign law enforcement agencies. There is nothing unusual about political involvement in a case like this.

    Where did I say the British media weren't to blame for reporting Portuguese tabloid stories? I slammed them for doing so.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nana View Post
    Are you saying that the British media are not to blame for they simply copy the Portuguese stories? I didn't know Portugal had such a power and certainly I didn't find any "disclaimer" on the British pages. Well, unlike the British media, I sign every post I made and stick to my opinion on post 37 on this thread.

    It was never my intention to attack anyone here and I don't think I did. Maybe I was wrong since the beginning in thinking FFJ was a public forum for opinion not for documentation. If this is the case, I apologize to Tricia.

    If I wanted to bash the parents I could easily find a forum to do so. Stop asking question will help to bring her back?

    As far as I know, the Whites' children are safe and sound.

    When I first read about FFJ was in the final of Laci Peterson's case. I didn't like the posts and being against the death penalty it was hard to read. Did I try to join to tell my opinion? No, I simply closed the browser and never went back. Now, If I can't post my opinion, there's no point in being here. You could have said how you feel in a less aggressive manner. Don't think for a minute that I don't know you are smarter than me.
    You know NOTHING about the extent to which I have tried to restrain myself from saying what I feel about this thread. However, I am proud to be described as aggressive in standing up for people have been kicked excessively to the curb and who are unable to stand up for themselves.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nana View Post
    So the links you provided above are not "fairly reputable sources"? Are they "tabloid gossips"?
    If the information on your dailymail link is true, and they knew the apartment was supposed to be empty, they should have warned the resort security. If this is true, why Maddie's parents don't blame the Ocean Club for their lack of security?
    If they provided evidence against Mr. Murat, why the PJ can't find any to arrest him?
    ...
    The two women, both divorcees from Maidstone, Kent, spent 11 hours with British police officers providing details of their evidence and later met private detectives from Metodo 3, the agency employed by the McCanns to find their daughter.
    ...
    Strange how "they intended to remain anonymous" and yet their photograph is in the page.




    I don't get the "don't speak publicly" part. How many interviews with them are there? They have given their version since the beginning as far as I know. What is their priority? To get their daughter back, the public opinion about them or not to be imprisoned?
    As I said before, they don't depend solely on the PJ's work. They have the resources to track down whomever did this to their daughter. Bring the perpetrator to justice and put the PJ to shame.
    Or collaborate with the police:

    Madeleine McCann's parents called back to Portugal

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3705440.ece
    ...
    Friends of the couple have indicated that they would refuse to voluntarily return unless they are formally cleared of any wrongdoing.
    ...

    Will they be there on May, 29th?

    Yet again you mislead. You make it sound as though they may refuse to return to Portugal and co-operate with police.

    Clarence Mitchell, the the McCanns' spokesman, said: “Any requests made by Portuguese police via Kate and Gerry’s lawyers are covered by Portuguese judicial secrecy and as a result I am not at liberty to discuss any details of any such proposals.

    “However, Kate and Gerry would very much welcome a Crimewatch-style reconstruction which is properly broadcast for millions of people to see and could generate important new leads and fresh information.

    “It’s untrue to say that Kate and Gerry have been called back or summoned back. Their lawyers are very much continuing discussions with the Portuguese police and if any such decision is taken to take part, an announcement will be made at the appropriate time.”
    I really do hope people follow your links and read the entire stories for themselves and that they don't rely on your selective and misleading excerpts.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nana View Post
    Are you saying that the British media are not to blame for they simply copy the Portuguese stories? I didn't know Portugal had such a power and certainly I didn't find any "disclaimer" on the British pages. Well, unlike the British media, I sign every post I made and stick to my opinion on post 37 on this thread.

    It was never my intention to attack anyone here and I don't think I did. Maybe I was wrong since the beginning in thinking FFJ was a public forum for opinion not for documentation. If this is the case, I apologize to Tricia.

    If I wanted to bash the parents I could easily find a forum to do so. Stop asking question will help to bring her back?

    As far as I know, the Whites' children are safe and sound.

    When I first read about FFJ was in the final of Laci Peterson's case. I didn't like the posts and being against the death penalty it was hard to read. Did I try to join to tell my opinion? No, I simply closed the browser and never went back. Now, If I can't post my opinion, there's no point in being here. You could have said how you feel in a less aggressive manner. Don't think for a minute that I don't know you are smarter than me.
    No-one suggested for a minute that the White children are not safe and sound! The White children come from a terrific background and are both successful kids. Please do not try to insinuate anything along THOSE lines from my above post.

    The point I was trying to make is that the Whites have been heavily smeared by a certain group of people. They haven't spoken publicly about the Ramsey case but they have passionately - and in the face of all manner of obstacles - tried to see justice done. Yet some people need little excuse to smear them for any reason at all - case related or otherwise. It's nastiness IMO for the sake of it. The McCanns are nothing like the Ramseys. They don't care about their public image - Kate detests being in the limelight. They didn't immediately hire lawyers or refuse to speak with police. Yet they've been condemned from everything from their hairstyles to their inability to pay their mortgage whilst they were in Portugal. Gerry was criticised for not working and when he did go back to work, he was condemned for doing so.

    This hatred for the parents depresses me - where is the outrage against the person who took Madeleine?
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    I just googled Calpol and it seems the main ingedient is paracetamol, a very mild pain killer. Painkillers containing paracetamol are widely sold here in Germany also, and I too always carry some paracetamol tablets in my handbag - they are not as harsh on the stomach as aspirin.


    Thanks Jay for the info.

    Summing it up :

    Maddie was last seen in public around 5/6 p. m.
    Gery and Kate went to the tapas bar at around 8 p. m.
    Kate discovered Maddie missing at 10 p.m.

    - So according to this time line, if there was a kidnapping, it had to have occurred bewtween 8 p.m and 10 p.m.

    - If there was no kidnapping and the parents were involved in Maddie's disapperance (and in case of parental involvement, death would be likely), it had to have occcurred between 5 p. m. and 8 p. m. (and suppose the friend of the McCanns checking on them between 6 and 7 saw Maddie alive, between 6/7 p. m. and 8 p. m).

    This would be an extremely narrow time frame for the McCanns to have gone trough such a traumatic experience like an accidental killing of their child including disposal of the body right in the middle of a resort buzzing with people.

    Highly unlikely imo that they would have been able to get this done.

    When one considers Murat's time frame, it is just as narrow.

    If Murat was the perp, suppose he both abducted and killed Madeleine, he had to have done all that between 8 p m. and 10 p. m. - a mere two hours.
    For at the time the search for Maddie began, if what the eye-witnesses say is true, Murat was already seen at the apartment complex.

    Again, taking into account the extremely narrow time window, imo it is unlikely he could have abducted Maddie, abused her, killed her and disposed of the body within those mere two hours.

    Unless he had an a accomplice of course.
    If Maddie was kidnapped and not killed, the question to ask is in which way Murat, if he was involved, would have profited from this crime.

    How throroughly has Murat's backgound been checked out and what did it reveal?

    How far away from the apartment complex did Murat live?

    My times are only approximate and from memory - best not to take them as gospel. As I recall, there is something like a 90 minute window in which the parents could have collaborated in a murder and cover up. The experts said it wasn't long enough because there would have been a lot of panicking and commotion and they'd have needed time to think and dispose of the body and then get ready, compose themselves and go out to dinner as though nothing had happened. There are no reports of either parent being "off their food" at dinner that night. If I'd just accidentally killed one of my children and disposed of its body, I doubt I'd have an appetite!

    Also, remember that both gerry and one of the friends checked the apartment during the time that the McCanns left and Kate discovered Madeleine was missing. The friend apparently didn't look in the bedroom but Gerry did. I think the actual time frame for her to be taken is only about 30 minutes. There was a reconstruction on one of the programmes and they said it was plenty long enough time. If Jane Tanner DID see the kidnapper, then Madeleine was taken very soon after Gerry checked. The kidnapper could have been watching the apartment and waiting for a check to bemade so that he'd know the coast would be clear for a little bit.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission



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