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  1. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    I think it would have been next to impossible for the McCanns to have killed Maddie and disposed of the body in that narrow time frame, WITH NO TRACE OF HER FOUND LATER.

    I believe, as someone has suggested and I posted earlier, that the kidnappers knew the McCanns evening ritual, and they used that schedule to their advantage. They waited until they saw Gerry McCann leave after his last check at 9:05 p.m. As soon as he was out of sight, they entered the apartment and took Maddie. I also believe there was an accomplice (with a car waiting nearby) to whisk them out of the area.

    I think the kidnappers knew it would be too much trouble to take all three children, and it would be harder to deal with babies than an almost four-year-old girl. I also believe Maddie was noticed for being blonde and pretty, and that she was taken for purposes of pedophilia, not ransom.

    All of the speculation about the McCanns is just that. Speculation. There has been no hard evidence, and the McCanns have been prevented from speaking out in their defense.

    Yes, the McCanns shouldn't have left the children alone, but the continued bashing of them, and baseless accusations of their involvement in Maddie's death does nothing but cause heartache and further more gossip. What good does it do when there is no real news on the McCann case to repeat over and over innuendos and unsourced suppositions? It doesn't solve the case, and it doesn't bring Maddie home if she's still alive.

    I believe the good posters of this forum can agree to disagree about certain subjects, and that's what we may have to do in this case. If there are facts to provide, that's excellent. If there are opinions on those facts, that fine. But the continued stirring of the tab and rumor pot against the parents only serves to keep the focus off of the true objective - to solve the case and hopefully, bring Maddie home.

    Discussion of evidence is good. The rehashing of unsourced claims only leads to frustration and anger. I know everyone here has been saddened by the tragedy of Maddie McCann's disappearance and possible death. Let's try to give each other the benefit of the doubt and realize that when children are involved, emotions can run deep.
    Fair enough Cherokee, and for the final record, I don't think they killed Madeleine either.

    I do have some questions though.

    If there is a link to the story where's the problem? Is it the wording in the story, and if so, who is the judge of whether something is permitted to be discussed or not? Discussing it is not the same as claiming it as fact. It's simply putting information out there and giving people credit for being smart enough to know trash when they see it.

    Who here is going to determine what may or may not be discussed? Is there a vetting process?

    Do we need to ask whether or not a story meets a certain guideline? Can they be only pro McCann stories?

    Actually, not a problem for me any more, but just in case some of your newer posters want to discuss this case it might be good if they knew whether or not they were stepping on anyone's toes and if they have to walk along a certain party line.

    Personally, I'll never give up hope that Madeleine will be brought back home to her family. Whether or not I post about it, in the end, won't have any bearning on it.

    Little
    Last edited by Moab; May 27, 2008, 7:17 pm at Tue May 27 19:17:26 UTC 2008.
    No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -Heraclitus Fragments c. 500 BC

  2. #98
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    Default Little and Elle

    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Thank you, Little. I certainly have never been accused of misleading anyone before, but there is always a first time for everything.
    All you had to say was that you were mistaken. I think you know the difference here between a close friend and a politician supporting people embroiled in a diplomatic matter and I suspect you also understand why your comment was misleading even if you aren't prepared to admit it.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  3. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    I think it would have been next to impossible for the McCanns to have killed Maddie and disposed of the body in that narrow time frame, WITH NO TRACE OF HER FOUND LATER.

    I believe, as someone has suggested and I posted earlier, that the kidnappers knew the McCanns evening ritual, and they used that schedule to their advantage. They waited until they saw Gerry McCann leave after his last check at 9:05 p.m. As soon as he was out of sight, they entered the apartment and took Maddie. I also believe there was an accomplice (with a car waiting nearby) to whisk them out of the area.

    I think the kidnappers knew it would be too much trouble to take all three children, and it would be harder to deal with babies than an almost four-year-old girl. I also believe Maddie was noticed for being blonde and pretty, and that she was taken for purposes of pedophilia, not ransom.

    All of the speculation about the McCanns is just that. Speculation. There has been no hard evidence, and the McCanns have been prevented from speaking out in their defense.

    Yes, the McCanns shouldn't have left the children alone, but the continued bashing of them, and baseless accusations of their involvement in Maddie's death does nothing but cause heartache and further more gossip. What good does it do when there is no real news on the McCann case to repeat over and over innuendos and unsourced suppositions? It doesn't solve the case, and it doesn't bring Maddie home if she's still alive.

    I believe the good posters of this forum can agree to disagree about certain subjects, and that's what we may have to do in this case. If there are facts to provide, that's excellent. If there are opinions on those facts, that fine. But the continued stirring of the tab and rumor pot against the parents only serves to keep the focus off of the true objective - to solve the case and hopefully, bring Maddie home.

    Discussion of evidence is good. The rehashing of unsourced claims only leads to frustration and anger. I know everyone here has been saddened by the tragedy of Maddie McCann's disappearance and possible death. Let's try to give each other the benefit of the doubt and realize that when children are involved, emotions can run deep.
    Hear hear.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  4. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little View Post
    Fair enough Cherokee, and for the final record, I don't think they killed Madeleine either.

    I do have some questions though.

    If there is a link to the story where's the problem? Is it the wording in the story, and if so, who is the judge of whether something is permitted to be discussed or not? Discussing it is not the same as claiming it as fact. It's simply putting information out there and giving people credit for being smart enough to know trash when they see it.

    Who here is going to determine what may or may not be discussed? Is there a vetting process?

    Do we need to ask whether or not a story meets a certain guideline? Can they be only pro McCann stories?

    Actually, not a problem for me any more, but just in case some of your newer posters want to discuss this case it might be good if they knew whether or not they were stepping on anyone's toes and if they have to walk along a certain party line.

    Personally, I'll never give up hope that Madeleine will be brought back home to her family. Whether or not I post about it, in the end, won't have any bearning on it.

    Little
    No-one is objecting to the truth being posted and the only "party line" being requested is that we stick to facts and refrain from perpetuating hurtful tabloid gossip.
    Last edited by Moab; May 27, 2008, 7:22 pm at Tue May 27 19:22:47 UTC 2008.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  5. #101
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    I have deleted/edited a couple of posts about kites and their responses because it doesn't befit ANY of the FFJ membership to make those comments.

    I understand frustration, and I understand heat-of-the-moment, and I understand ALL of you are intelligent, wonderful, and passionate...especially about this case.

    to the "new" Maddie thread!
    It will not contain snide remarks or personal attacks against other members.

    I have patched everyone up now with band aids, Ice packs (for those who forgot to duck), and a piece of raw meat on those black eyes (take it home and grill it for dinner after the eye starts feeling better).

    I am going to review the entire thread, and perhaps make even more edits, and then I will either add to this post, or make another one.

    I would suggest all take the evening off of this thread, and return tomorrow with a renewed vow to not beat up your siblings in this wonderful FFJ Family to which you are ALL coveted members.
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    It's probably too late to get justice for JonBenét. Maybe it always was. But knowing where things went wrong is the first step to not going there again. **-- Alan Prendergast-Dec 21, 2006--**

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  6. #102
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    Fer goodness sake, that's just a joke in Scotland Moab. I even put a smiley face on it.

    I felt badly about the remarks made to Nana from Brazil. What about those?

    P.S. Thank you for trying.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  7. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    I felt badly about the remarks made to Nana from Brazil. What about those?
    Unkind remarks are just that...unkind... I didn't single anyone out, nor am I trying to point a finger at any one person... all of you are posting on this thread, so I was attempting to be all inclusive concerning getting along.

    Healthy discussion is great...heated discussion happens...this is a tough case...it crosses continents and customs. Things we don't do in the U.S. are done differently in other countries, but what we have to remember, not only are the customs different, the threats are different as well. We still have small towns in the U.S with little or no crime...yet we have an overall large crime rate in the U.S. in total.

    I think we can take the word of those members in other countries as to what publications are reputable and what ones aren't, and that gives us some added insight we normally wouldn't have known. The media over the last 10 years has really changed. Journalism used to be far more accurate. Today the media only cares about being first, not being right.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by Moab; May 27, 2008, 8:23 pm at Tue May 27 20:23:18 UTC 2008.
    It's probably too late to get justice for JonBenét. Maybe it always was. But knowing where things went wrong is the first step to not going there again. **-- Alan Prendergast-Dec 21, 2006--**

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  8. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little View Post
    Fair enough Cherokee, and for the final record, I don't think they killed Madeleine either.

    I do have some questions though.

    If there is a link to the story where's the problem? Is it the wording in the story, and if so, who is the judge of whether something is permitted to be discussed or not?

    Discussing it is not the same as claiming it as fact. It's simply putting information out there and giving people credit for being smart enough to know trash when they see it.
    Hi Little,
    I'm sure Chero will pop in and answer this, but I wanted to give you my thoughts as well.
    Pro or Con, all articles are welcome with a link to the article as part of the discussion. As I mentioned in the previous post, sometimes we have to take the word of those nearby to let us know what publications are reputable. I might read something from one and take it as gospel, only to have another poster come on and tell me that the "source" was not known for giving accurate facts. That to me would be helpful when I was weighing how I felt about the information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little View Post
    Who here is going to determine what may or may not be discussed? Is there a vetting process?
    Do we need to ask whether or not a story meets a certain guideline? Can they be only pro McCann stories?
    Anything may be discussed as opinion. As with all cases, Transcripts, court documents and articles from reputable sources with links, are all welcome. No permissions necessary, pro and con welcome. I think there is not a lot of true factual information out there because so many cannot discuss the case...that makes it hard for us discussing it as well...we start getting into speculation and that isn't always a safe haven, we have only to look at the Ramsey case to remind us of that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Little View Post
    Personally, I'll never give up hope that Madeleine will be brought back home to her family.
    Little
    I am right there with you Little...I hope and pray every day that this little innocent girl will be returned to her family, and I think perhaps it is one of the most bizarre cases I have followed.

    I hope this answers your questions, if not, please shoot me a PM.



    Carrion ya'll...

    It's probably too late to get justice for JonBenét. Maybe it always was. But knowing where things went wrong is the first step to not going there again. **-- Alan Prendergast-Dec 21, 2006--**

    ______________________
    Bring all our Missing Home www.usearchut.org
    Prayers for our military who are protecting our freedom.

  9. #105
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    Hold on a minute here.... Re "unkind" remarks were made to Nana from Brazil. The only "unkind" remarks that were made on this thread were directed towards me. I didn't complain about them, but the Mods evidently thought they were unkind since they were deleted. None of my posts to Nana have been deleted. There a distinction here between speaking the (unwelcome) truth and being unkind. I told Nana that what she posted was misleading and it was. Anyone who took the time to follow the link and read the entire article would see that for themselves.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  10. #106
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    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7422787.stm

    McCann reconstruction called off

    A reconstruction of the night Madeleine McCann disappeared will not happen after friends her parents dined with that evening declined to take part.

    Kate and Gerry McCann did not refuse to take part in a reconstruction

    Reconstructions are usually made using actors. I can imagine what a media circus this would have turned into, but it seems odd that the Portuguese police didn't want it filmed. We have a programme here called "Crimewatch UK" and they have a terrific success rate in clearing up crimes due to people's memories being jogged by the reconstructions.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  11. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moab View Post
    Anything may be discussed as opinion. As with all cases, Transcripts, court documents and articles from reputable sources with links, are all welcome. No permissions necessary, pro and con welcome. I think there is not a lot of true factual information out there because so many cannot discuss the case...that makes it hard for us discussing it as well...we start getting into speculation and that isn't always a safe haven, we have only to look at the Ramsey case to remind us of that!
    The section taken from the link posted below is just an example of how complicated it is in the McCann case to sort through info and assess it.
    It lists the differing accounts allegedly given by Jane Tanner of the man she saw carrying a child she later believed to have been Maddie.
    I seems that at one time, Tanner was not sure that the man was carrying something; the locations where she saw him seem to vary too:

    http://www.mccannfiles.com/id30.html

    Also, if JT saw the lower part of pink pajama legs (as shown in the artist's drawing), hardly likely that it was Maddie because the pajama bottoms she wore were white also did not reach down to the ankles (see further down where there is a picture of the PJs).

    This site I took the link from contains a lot of info:

    http://www.mccannfiles.com/index.html

    But how to sort through all this? Imo we couldn't even open a 'just the facts' thread here yet because for every alleged 'fact', another 'fact' will show up contradicting the previous.

    Other examples:
    "The blood was Maddie's" vs "The blood was not from Maddie"
    "DNA tests incriminates the McCanns" vs "The DNA tests exonerates the McCanns"
    "Cadaver dogs are reliable and they did smell cadaver scent" vs. "The cadaver dog thing was a ruse by the police to trap the McCanns"

    The chaotic mass of contradictory info has only muddied the waters instead of clearing them.

    On many Madeleine forums, the discussion has strongly shifted to the McCanns themselves (pro- or anti) and away from time lines and such crucial things like weighing technical probability against non-probability.

    Maybe we could make a difference here on FFJ?

    I'd like to start with the time line.

    Imo what imo exonerates the McCanns is the narrow time frame in which they would have had to carry all this out. It is virtually impossible for them to have done it, given this time frame.
    If anyone thinks they could have done it in this time frame and how, I'd be interested in their theories.

    Also in their opinions re Murat and his possible involvement. Imo if he was involved, hardly likely that he acted alone. Maybe he spied out a good moment for the kidnappers to snatch Madeleine and got paid for it? Just my speculations though.

    jmo
    Last edited by rashomon; May 28, 2008, 6:01 pm at Wed May 28 18:01:07 UTC 2008.

  12. #108
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    I agree that the timeline would tend to exonerate the McCanns. ALso, as I said before, how likely would they be to be able to join friends for a casual meal and actually behave normally?

    There is also the fact that they stayed in Portugal - Kate actually refused to leave until Madeleine was found. I think if they had anything to hide, they'd have gotten out of Dodge pdq.

    They didn't lawyer up until they were made arguidos - 4 months later.

    I honestly don't know anything about Robert Murat. I know he hung around the complex offering his help as a translator and I believe he actually translated for the McCanns or their friends in the early police interviews. He is bilingual - a tremendous asset. I think you'd be just so desperate for assistance and someone who speaks the lingo fluently would be a godsend.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission



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