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  1. #13

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    Rashomon, you once posted this in response to Henri at topix. Perhaps you remember your sources:



    Rashomon
    Wolnzach, Germany Reply »
    |Report Abuse |#112 40 min ago

    [snip]


    Michelle Dresbold - Handwriting Analysis Expert Trained by the U. S. Secret Service:

    “The chances that Patsy Ramsey did not write the ransom note are about 2 percent.”

    Gideon Epstein - Forensic Document Examiner:

    “Based on the presently available documents, there are strong indications that Patsy Ramsey is the author of the ransom note.”

    David S. Liebman - Certified Document Examiner:

    “There are far too many similarities and consistencies revealed in the handwriting of Patsy Ramsey and
    the ransom note for it to be coincidence. In light of the number of comparisons and similarities between Patsy Ramsey and the ransom note writer (51), the chances of a third party also sharing the same characteristics is astronomical. In my professional opinion Patsy Ramsey is the ransom note writer.”

    Tom Miller - Attorney, Court Qualified Expert Witness in Questioned Documents:

    “Based upon available exemplars compared to the purported "ransom" note in the JonBenét Ramsey murder, the handwriting is probably that of Patsy Ramsey.”

    Chet Ubowski - Colorado Bureau of Investigation Handwriting Expert:

    Chet Ubowski wrote, "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey.'' He is said to have found 24 of 26 letters in the ransom note which matched exemplars from Patsy Ramsey.

    Cina L. Wong - Certified Document Examiner:

    “I have made careful examination and comparison of the ‘ransom’ note and the exemplars of Patsy Ramsey. I have reached the conclusion that the handwritings and ‘ransom’ note were very probably written by the same person…it is my professional opinion that Patsy Ramsey very likely wrote the ‘ransom’ note.”

    Larry F. Ziegler - Forensic Document Examiner:

    “It was determined and is still determined by myself that Patsy Ramsey is the writer of the ransom note.”

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

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    My opinions, nothing more.

  2. #14

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    Yes, Judge Carnes' OPINION was egregious, which she based on DEPOSITIONS and POSSIBLY evidence entered by Wood and Hoffman on the handwriting experts she accepted, though I don't remember having seen any of this evidence produced by the handwriting experts in question, if it was in fact ENTERED into evidence in some way during the DISCOVERY PHASE of the Wolf suit, and which apparently was accepted by Carnes on its face, WITHOUT GOING TO TRIAL to be TESTED by the process, I might add. (Of course, I could have simply forgotten by now. Perhaps someone who does remember will share with us.)

    We know of many errors in her OPINION. It's easy to track many of them stright to Smit, as we've seen his spin many times. But Smit's deposition is sealed, unlike Thomas', thanks to Wood and Hoffman. Hunter's is, as well as others in LE which would reveal much, I'm sure, the RST doesn't want the public to see, IMO.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  3. #15

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    Well, at long last, I FINALLY found Hunter's "partial" deposition again, posted by jams at the swamp, and herein not only does Hunter give a bit of a different "spin" on the "1-5 scale" of handwriting analysis, Wood admits IT'S NOT AN ACTUAL SCALE:

    http://www.webbsleuths.com/dcf/jbr_evidence/107.html

    jameson
    Charter Member
    10561 posts Dec-28-02, 11:42 AM (EST)

    1. "RE: Exerpts from Hunter's Deposition"
    In response to message #0

    105
    9 Wood: Chief Beckner confirmed yesterday that the

    10 investigation had retained the services of Chet

    11 Ubowski, obviously through CBI, Leonard Speckin,

    12 Edwin Alford and Richard Dusak to at various times

    13 perform handwriting analysis on the ransom note in

    14 comparing it and analyzing other individuals'

    15 writings. You were familiar with those four

    16 individuals?

    17 Hunter: Yes.

    18 Wood: Are you familiar with their results as

    19 they pertain to Patsy Ramsey?

    20 Hunter: Yes.

    21 Wood: Those four individuals are well respected,

    22 are they not?

    23 Hunter: Yes.

    24 Wood: You also know Howard Ryle and Lloyd

    25 Cunningham?

    106


    1 Hunter: Yes.

    2 Wood: Within the community Howard Ryle and Lloyd

    3 Cunningham are highly regarded and well respected,

    4 aren't they?

    5 Hunter: Yes.

    6 Wood: You were given the benefit of Howard Ryle

    7 and Lloyd Cunningham's opinions in this matter in a

    8 presentation that was done for the investigation

    9 through the Ramsey attorneys, correct?

    10 Hunter: Yes.

    11 Wood: I'm correct that there was not of the six

    12 individuals any examiner that identified Patsy Ramsey

    13 as the author of the note; am I right?

    14 Hunter: That's right.

    15 Wood: These were not people who came there to

    16 identify her or not identify. These six individuals,

    17 understanding two of them were employed by the

    18 defense, I think you fairly agreed were trying to be

    19 professional, thorough, and objective and reach the

    20 right result under their standards of handwriting

    21 analysis; am I right?

    22 Hunter: Yes.

    23 Wood: The sum total of the investigators and the

    24 individuals I've been over that with were hired by

    25 the Boulder Police Department along with Mr. Ubowski.


    107


    1 With respect to Patsy Ramsey, you have -- it's been

    2 described at one point again on a scale that we don't

    3 necessarily, I don't know if it's an agreed-upon

    4 scale, butfor purposes of trying to discuss the

    5 reports, there was a description of a one-to-five

    6 scale with five being elimination. And you have

    7 publicly acknowledged that the sum total of the

    8 handwriting analysis done by the investigation on

    9 Patsy Ramsey that you would agree that she was

    10 somewhere about a 4.5; is that right, on that scale?

    11 Hunter: That's roughly right.

    12 Wood: Not eliminated but very close to it, am I

    13 right?

    14 Hunter: Yeah, I can't remember, you know, I would

    15 be more comfortable saying four on that scale. I

    16 can't remember the 4.5.

    17 Wood: And I think when you were asked about it,

    18 you said that that was close, the bottom line being

    19 that they placed the chances of her writing the note

    20 as I believe you described it as very low --

    21 Hunter: Right.

    22 Wood: -- is that right?

    23 Hunter: Yes, very low.


    24 Wood: And without asking for names, there were

    25 other individuals who were under suspicion whose

    108


    1 handwriting was analyzed that were not eliminated as

    2 the author of the note; am I right?

    3 Hunter: That's correct.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  4. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    Rashomon, you once posted this in response to Henri at topix. Perhaps you remember your sources:
    It's in Cherokee's post http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...?t=6404&page=3
    No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -Heraclitus Fragments c. 500 BC

  5. #17

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    And finally, this is from a site belonging to jams herself, whom I quote because...the IDIs certainly are going to listen to HER, right?

    http://www.jameson245.com/bestnote.htm

    The Handwriting

    What the Experts said
    .
    Chet Ubowski, CBI: There is evidence that indicates the ransom note may have been written by Patsy. But the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definitive conclusion.

    Leonard Speckin, private forensic document analyst: "When I compare the handwriting habits of Patsy Ramsey with those in the . . . note, there exists agreement to the extent that some of her individual letter formations and letter combinations do appear in the ransom note. When this agreement is weighed against the number, type and consistency of the differences present, I am unable to identify Patsy Ramsey as the author of the . . . note with any degree of certainty. I am, however, unable to eliminate her as the author."

    Edwin F. Alford Jr., private document examiner: "Examination of the questioned handwriting and comparison with the handwriting specimens submitted has failed to provide a basis for identifying Patricia Ramsey as the writer of the letter."

    Lloyd Cunningham, Ramsey-hired expert: He cannot identify or eliminate Patsy Ramsey as the author of the ransom note. He spent 20 hours examining the samples and documents and found that there were no significant individual characteristics but many significant differences between Patsy's writing and the note.

    Richard Dusak, document analyst for the Secret Service: His study concluded that there was no evidence that Patsy wrote the note.

    Howard Rile, Ramsey-hired expert: His opinion is between "probably not" and "elimination" of Patsy Ramsey as the author of the ransom note. He believes that the writer could be identified if earlier writing samples were found.

    Larry Ziegler, expert hired by Darnay Hoffman - in an email to jameson - " It was determined and is still determined by myself that Patsy Ramsey is the writer of the ransom note." (He later removed himself from the case.)

    I only have the depositions from the following experts and will take their answers from their depositions.

    Cina Wong, expert hired by Darnay Hoffman - from her deposition:
    Question by Lin Wood: "Well, do you feel that you have eliminated all reasonable doubt about whether Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note?
    Answer by Cina Wong: In this case, I highly believe she wrote the note.
    Q. And please answer my question.
    A. I am sorry.
    Q. Do you feel that you have eliminated all reasonable doubt?
    A. With the people, the possibilities of who could be involved in this case with the three handwriting samples that were given to me and enormous -- the enormous similarities that Patsy Ramsey's handwriting and the note, yes, I believe she is the writer.

    Gideon Epstein, expert hired by Darnay Hoffman - from his deposition
    Q. What is your degree of certainty yourself as you sit here today that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note?
    A. I am absolutely certain that she wrote the note.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Personally--and I'm no expert, but the rest of these experts are--I have NO IDEA what Dusak was up to. He obviously had some agenda other than doing an unbiased job on this case. Makes me wonder about Spade's claims that the cover up went all the way to Washington. A claim which I have not discounted, BTW, because of the hanky panky with the phone records, and the undeniable political influence of Lockheed Martin, one of the world's largest and most powerful defense contractors.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  6. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little
    Thanks, Little. So much to remember, so little memory left....

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  7. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    Rashomon, you once posted this in response to Henri at topix. Perhaps you remember your sources:
    I had taken this from Cherokee's ransom note analysis thread, and an IDI (Athena) replied (on Sycamore where I had posted this too) that other than Chet Ubowski in the list "none of their opinions mean diddly squat in this case".

    For according to Athena, the only experts who could have testified were the original six (4 hired by BPD and 2 hired by the Ramseys) as they were the only ones who had access to the original document and whose conclusions were included in the statement Hunter made.

    After I asked her who these six experts were, she posted the list taken from Carnes' report.

  8. #20

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    Did you see "The Handwriting" above, from jams' own page?

    In reality, though, I can't help you with Athena. She's like jams and Deb and Ashley and maimed, etc.--those die hards so deeply devoted to proving the Ramseys innocent, they'll never notice if they spent one tenth of the effort and energy studying this case OBJECTIVELY, working the evidence AS IT IS instead of what the Ramseys told them to THINK is it, they'd have no problem believing the Ramseys are the best suspects and always have been.

    Not gonna' happen. Athena is happily ensconced among the sycamore legends in their own minds, and she's not about to take her blinders off. She spent a lot of time trying to prove there is a "1 to 5" handwriting analysis scale, but the best she could do is post various historical arguments and reports on what the TESTIMONY of handwriting experts should be limited to in court, in terms of the 1 to 9 LEVELS they use; the number "5" did pop up, as well as the word "scale", but they weren't used in the context of any "1 to 5 point scale" for handwriting anaylsis. Hunter really stumped her on that one, but she'll never get it. She's convinced she's found the right words to PROVE the scale is real. The words are on the same PAGE, after all!!

    Tell it to your goldfish. She'll get it faster.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    Thanks, Little. So much to remember, so little memory left....
    LOL KK. My RAM just isn't what it used to be either.

    Little
    No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -Heraclitus Fragments c. 500 BC

  10. #22

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    Hopefully, this is a sign that we will be seeing more of you around here now that John may be Running again.....there's never enough Punishment in my eyes!
    They may escape the law, but never escape punishment.

    According to what an IDI on another JBR board said, these would have been the only experts who would have been able to testify had this case gone to trial. Fact or fiction?
    I really don't know. The Ramsey PI admitted that they were digging up dirt on Miller in case he were called to testify.

    I'd also like to find out more about what exactly these handwriting experts stated and compare it to the version Carnes gave.
    If you go to Miss Marple's site and read the stuff I gave him on Chet, that's a good start.

    For this same IDI claims that Dusick, the expert hired by LE through Beckner and Cunningham, one of the Ramseys' experts, could eliminate Patsy as the writer. But this would contradict info acccording to which Patsy could not be eliminated by any of those six experts.

    Additional info on Dusick's and Cunningham's analysis would be much appreciated.
    How's this:

    Q. Do you know Richard Dusick?

    A. Secret Service, yes.

    Q. Is he a qualified document examiner?

    A. Best of my knowledge, he is.

    Q. The Secret Service is more often involved with criminal investigations than the INS is; is it not, sir?

    A. Dusick has a special job there. He works with a particular database. I don't know how much actual handwriting work he does.
    They should all drown in lakes of blood. Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night.

  11. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Punisher
    They may escape the law, but never escape punishment.



    I really don't know. The Ramsey PI admitted that they were digging up dirt on Miller in case he were called to testify.



    If you go to Miss Marple's site and read the stuff I gave him on Chet, that's a good start.



    How's this:

    Q. Do you know Richard Dusick?

    A. Secret Service, yes.

    Q. Is he a qualified document examiner?

    A. Best of my knowledge, he is.

    Q. The Secret Service is more often involved with criminal investigations than the INS is; is it not, sir?

    A. Dusick has a special job there. He works with a particular database. I don't know how much actual handwriting work he does.
    Well, now that is a contradictory statement if I have EVER read one. How in the world can he believe that Dusick is a qualified document examiner, if he doesn't know how much actual handwriting work he does. That makes NO sense.

  12. #24
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    Default Rashomon

    Maybe it is a typo but in your post # 11 I believe you wrote that the judge said all 6 concluded MR Ramsey didn't write the note instead of MRS Ramsey.



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