Fact or Fiction?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by rashomon, Mar 29, 2008.

  1. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    The Ramsey case discussion provides many examples of how unsourced evidentiary claims can grow legs and are suddenly handed around as 'evidence' on the forums with neither an official nor any other credible source given to back them up.

    A classic example of such a myth is the so-called "1 - 5" scale (5 standing for elimination), on which Patsy allegedly came close to elimination, scoring 4.5.

    From Gideon Epstein's depo:


    8 Q. And you understand that from Alex

    9 Hunter's perspective, the sum total of the

    10 handwriting analysis done by the investigation on

    11 Patsy Ramsey was that she was somewhere at about

    12 a 4.5 on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being

    13 elimination.

    14 A. (Nods head).

    15 Q. Do you not, sir?

    16 A. That's what he says.

    17 Q. Thus, that from Alex Hunter's

    18 perspective, Patsy Ramsey was not eliminated by

    19 the experts chosen by the district attorney, but

    20 she was close to elimination; correct?

    21 A. That's what he says, yes.


    Now that's interesting.
    For how on earth could Patsy have ended up at 4.5 (with 5 standing for elimination) if this was (as is claimed) the SUM TOTAL of the investigation, i. e. it was the sum total of what the experts "chosen by the DA" had concluded? (wasn't it the BPD who chose the experts?)


    But either way, for Patsy to reach a 4.5 of a 1 - 5 scale is mathematically impossible in view of the fact that Ubowski and Alford came close to identifiying her.

    Speckin could not eliminate her either.

    "The Speckin Lab was ready to testify that there was only an infinitesimal chance that some random intruder would have handwriting characteristics so remarkable similar to those of a parent sleeping upstairs." (ST, hb, p. 200/201)

    Even if one counts in Dusick's analysis: Patsy did not come close to being eliminated. The "sum total" of the investigation did NOT show that in any way. It was more the other way round: she came close to being identified.

    Bottom line: Patsy's alleged 4.5 score on that alleged 1-5 list is a flat-out lie.
     
  2. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I have said that for many years, Rashomon. I have addressed it in countless posts, but the Urban Myth of Patsy's 4.5 is still bandied about the internet as if it is solid case evidence.

    The 4.5 is an Alex Hunter fiction. He made up that scale. There is no such thing, and if you read what Ubowski actually said, or read what any of the handwriting analysts actually said about Patsy's handwriting (there is a section at the end of my analysis posted on this page that includes their summaries), not one independent expert said that. In fact, Ubowski said quite the opposite. Furthermore, as Jayelles will attest (because she did independent research on the methods and standards of document examination and handwriting analysis), no such scale exists in those fields. Her posts on the subject are here on FFJ and can be found using the search engine.
     
  3. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I have said that for years also, but it's like beating your head against the wall. The ones who do not want to believe it will not believe it.
     
  4. heymom

    heymom Member

    For those who would believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who would not believe, no evidence is sufficient.

    Alex Hunter is up to his eyeballs in the conspiracy to protect John and Patsy Ramsey from arrest and prosecution. Why should he be asked any of these questions in the first place? What does it matter what Alex Hunter believes about Patsy's writing? Ridiculous.

    :fishslap:
     
  5. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Thanks Koldkase for posting this quote on Topix:

    Could it be that it was the Ramseys who made up that scale, with Hunter not having the guts to admit that was an invention?

    Imo Hunter's 'mumbo jumbo area' comment was merely a tactical move to discredit ALL handwriting analysis. For Hunter KNEW of course that the majority of experts had come to the conclusion that Patsy in all probability had written the note.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2008
  6. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    The top lawyers hired by the BPD all said the Ramseys should be arrested. What would have legally justified an arrest in such a case, considering the Colorado laws?

    But Hunter was obviously wrong, at least according to Schiller's footnote on the same page:

     
  7. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    So Hunter won't even stand by the statement he's supposed to have made. Especially since just three days earlier Thomas said that the Ramseys' hired "experts" came up with it.

    Jayelles and Cherokee aren't the only ones with a problem here. I did a little digging of my own. I talked to a few document examiners. They'd never heard of such a thing.
     
  8. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

    Hopefully, this is a sign that we will be seeing more of you around here now that John may be Running again.....there's never enough Punishment in my eyes!
     
  9. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I just wrote this at topix, and since it's how I feel about the "1 to 5 point scale" that doesn't actually exist, I'm just going to re-post it here because I can't say it any clearer:

     
  10. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    So anyone believing that the "intruder" forged PR's handwriting on the RN would have to believe that in addition to ALL of the other things the intruder had the time to do the IDI can add spending time searching for and practicing PRs handwriting. And if they were a SFF (as some believe) how would they know whose handwriting they were looking at.
    Incredible. Just incredible.
     
  11. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Judge Carnes' Pro-Ramsey Spin

    I looked up what Judge Carnes said in her ruling about the ransom note authorship and nearly fell out of my chair reading such a blatant distortion of case facts:

    For Carnes tells a flat - out LIE here by stating: "All six experts agreed that Mr. Ramsey could be eliminated as the author of the Ransom Note".

    The opposite was true: none of these experts could eliminate her - not even those hired by the Ramseys. At least this is what it says in Steve Thomas' book.

    It looks like Carnes was spoon-fed Ramsey-favorable info by their lawyer team and did not bother to check out the orignal documented record herself.

    Those were the four experts Carnes was referring to (text from Carnes' ruling):


    According to what an IDI on another JBR board said, these would have been the only experts who would have been able to testify had this case gone to trial. Fact or fiction?

    I'd also like to find out more about what exactly these handwriting experts stated and compare it to the version Carnes gave.

    For this same IDI claims that Dusick, the expert hired by LE through Beckner and Cunningham, one of the Ramseys' experts, could eliminate Patsy as the writer. But this would contradict info acccording to which Patsy could not be eliminated by any of those six experts.

    Additional info on Dusick's and Cunningham's analysis would be much appreciated.
     
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Looking in my files:

     
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Rashomon, you once posted this in response to Henri at topix. Perhaps you remember your sources:

     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, Judge Carnes' OPINION was egregious, which she based on DEPOSITIONS and POSSIBLY evidence entered by Wood and Hoffman on the handwriting experts she accepted, though I don't remember having seen any of this evidence produced by the handwriting experts in question, if it was in fact ENTERED into evidence in some way during the DISCOVERY PHASE of the Wolf suit, and which apparently was accepted by Carnes on its face, WITHOUT GOING TO TRIAL to be TESTED by the process, I might add. (Of course, I could have simply forgotten by now. Perhaps someone who does remember will share with us.)

    We know of many errors in her OPINION. It's easy to track many of them stright to Smit, as we've seen his spin many times. But Smit's deposition is sealed, unlike Thomas', thanks to Wood and Hoffman. Hunter's is, as well as others in LE which would reveal much, I'm sure, the RST doesn't want the public to see, IMO.
     
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, at long last, I FINALLY found Hunter's "partial" deposition again, posted by jams at the swamp, and herein not only does Hunter give a bit of a different "spin" on the "1-5 scale" of handwriting analysis, Wood admits IT'S NOT AN ACTUAL SCALE:

    http://www.webbsleuths.com/dcf/jbr_evidence/107.html

     
  16. Little

    Little Member

  17. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    And finally, this is from a site belonging to jams herself, whom I quote because...the IDIs certainly are going to listen to HER, right?

    Personally--and I'm no expert, but the rest of these experts are--I have NO IDEA what Dusak was up to. He obviously had some agenda other than doing an unbiased job on this case. Makes me wonder about Spade's claims that the cover up went all the way to Washington. A claim which I have not discounted, BTW, because of the hanky panky with the phone records, and the undeniable political influence of Lockheed Martin, one of the world's largest and most powerful defense contractors.
     
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

  19. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    I had taken this from Cherokee's ransom note analysis thread, and an IDI (Athena) replied (on Sycamore where I had posted this too) that other than Chet Ubowski in the list "none of their opinions mean diddly squat in this case".

    For according to Athena, the only experts who could have testified were the original six (4 hired by BPD and 2 hired by the Ramseys) as they were the only ones who had access to the original document and whose conclusions were included in the statement Hunter made.

    After I asked her who these six experts were, she posted the list taken from Carnes' report.
     
  20. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Did you see "The Handwriting" above, from jams' own page?

    In reality, though, I can't help you with Athena. She's like jams and Deb and Ashley and maimed, etc.--those die hards so deeply devoted to proving the Ramseys innocent, they'll never notice if they spent one tenth of the effort and energy studying this case OBJECTIVELY, working the evidence AS IT IS instead of what the Ramseys told them to THINK is it, they'd have no problem believing the Ramseys are the best suspects and always have been.

    Not gonna' happen. Athena is happily ensconced among the sycamore legends in their own minds, and she's not about to take her blinders off. She spent a lot of time trying to prove there is a "1 to 5" handwriting analysis scale, but the best she could do is post various historical arguments and reports on what the TESTIMONY of handwriting experts should be limited to in court, in terms of the 1 to 9 LEVELS they use; the number "5" did pop up, as well as the word "scale", but they weren't used in the context of any "1 to 5 point scale" for handwriting anaylsis. Hunter really stumped her on that one, but she'll never get it. She's convinced she's found the right words to PROVE the scale is real. The words are on the same PAGE, after all!!

    Tell it to your goldfish. She'll get it faster.
     
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