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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    The fact that JonBenét was washed down and redressed after she was dead, I was just wondering WY if JonBenét's DNA still produced the same results as when she was alive (?).
    Elle, I'm not sure what you're asking me. Are you asking if the composition of our DNA changes when we die? If so, the answer is no. Nothing can change the composition of our DNA. What can change is the quality of the sample containing the DNA. Under certain conditions, the DNA can degrade and it can become contaminated. A blood sample from a bloody crime scene containing a mixture of victim's (or victims') or killer's DNA is considered contaminated. Anything foreign in a sample of DNA is contamination.

    Degradation of DNA is usually caused by improper storage or environmental conditions.

    One example of how DNA doesn't change is the 9-11 tragedy. Those people on the airplane were blown apart. I doubt very much if they ever recovered enough of them to test. The people in the buildings, however, were crushed and some were found in pieces. I feel lousy about using them as a reference, and I do so in great reverence, because it's important to understand how the remains were identified. A foot, even a toe, could identify a victim (I could just cry thinking about this).

    Another example is identifying the remains of people dead for many years. Scientists can recover DNA from bone marrow and even hair. Decomposition doesn't change DNA, but extreme decomposition can probably make retrieving the DNA not very pleasant.

    Here's a good one for you: what happens to the DNA in patients such as leukemia patients or other cancer patients who have their bone marrow destroyed by high-dose radiation or chemotherapy? Not long ago I read about man who could have gone to prison for a severe sexual assault. The DNA from semen was the same as this man's. However, when the crime was committed, this same man was already in jail on another charge. It turned out that the man who actually committed the sexual assault was bone marrow donor, and the man in jail was the recipient.

    The man in jail will forever carry the DNA of the marrow donor. Could get tricky in court...
    Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
    the philosophy which does not laugh,
    and the greatness which does not bow before children.

    ---Kahlil Gibran---

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watching You View Post
    Elle, I'm not sure what you're asking me. Are you asking if the composition of our DNA changes when we die? If so, the answer is no. Nothing can change the composition of our DNA. What can change is the quality of the sample containing the DNA. Under certain conditions, the DNA can degrade and it can become contaminated. A blood sample from a bloody crime scene containing a mixture of victim's (or victims') or killer's DNA is considered contaminated. Anything foreign in a sample of DNA is contamination.

    Degradation of DNA is usually caused by improper storage or environmental conditions.

    One example of how DNA doesn't change is the 9-11 tragedy. Those people on the airplane were blown apart. I doubt very much if they ever recovered enough of them to test. The people in the buildings, however, were crushed and some were found in pieces. I feel lousy about using them as a reference, and I do so in great reverence, because it's important to understand how the remains were identified. A foot, even a toe, could identify a victim (I could just cry thinking about this).

    Another example is identifying the remains of people dead for many years. Scientists can recover DNA from bone marrow and even hair. Decomposition doesn't change DNA, but extreme decomposition can probably make retrieving the DNA not very pleasant.

    Here's a good one for you: what happens to the DNA in patients such as leukemia patients or other cancer patients who have their bone marrow destroyed by high-dose radiation or chemotherapy? Not long ago I read about man who could have gone to prison for a severe sexual assault. The DNA from semen was the same as this man's. However, when the crime was committed, this same man was already in jail on another charge. It turned out that the man who actually committed the sexual assault was bone marrow donor, and the man in jail was the recipient.

    The man in jail will forever carry the DNA of the marrow donor. Could get tricky in court...
    Apparently, bone marrow (or is it stem cell?) transplants can cause temporary changes to DNA. That if DNA was extracted from the blood and comared to the DNA of the skin, they would be different. I think it's only temporary though. Makes sense. I suppose this might apply in blood transfusion situations too.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  3. #63

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    Has any info been released about Patsy's or John's DNA being found on the longjohns also?
    Of course it would be 'normal' for at least Patsy's DNA to be there (and even John's since he carried the dead body upstairs), but supppose Patsy's DNA was found in exactly the same location as the foreign DNA, then wouldn't this support a transfer theory (= she as the stager of the scene touched the DNA in the underwear and transferred it to the longjohns)?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles View Post
    Apparently, bone marrow (or is it stem cell?) transplants can cause temporary changes to DNA. That if DNA was extracted from the blood and comared to the DNA of the skin, they would be different. I think it's only temporary though. Makes sense. I suppose this might apply in blood transfusion situations too.
    Actually, it's both stem cell and bone marrow transplants. However, the results are not temporary, they are permanent. All blood cells are manufactured in the bone marrow. When a person's own bone marrow is destroyed and replaced with donor marrow, the blood DNA will forever be that of the donor.

    You are right about the skin DNA and blood DNA being different, though, although, in time, the skin DNA can become contaminated with the donor DNA. Kinda scary.
    Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
    the philosophy which does not laugh,
    and the greatness which does not bow before children.

    ---Kahlil Gibran---

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Gosh, Jayelles, so THAT'S why SuperDave thought I had "seen" Van Zandt.

    Obviously, I saw Van Zandt on TV. I have a fuzzy recollection, now that it's been brought to my attention TWICE that I "saw" Van Zandt during his book tour. The problem is--11+ years. I've seen and read so much on this case by now, my brain reached critical mass on this topic about two years ago, and now I don't remember half what I once knew, saw, or read.

    What I'm THINKING happened is while channel surfing one night, I came across Van Zandt on a channel that used to have authors speaking during their book tours. I saw some very interesting authors on that channel. It was at a book store located near Washington, DC, I'm thinking, but honestly, it's been so long, and I haven't seen this particular "special events" program in years. I don't think they do that program anymore. It was kind of like public televistion...maybe the channel that aired Congressional hearings and speeches and such?

    Anyhow, SuperDave brought this up when I joined WS a few weeks ago, and he seemed to think I actually "saw" Van Zandt in the flesh, as well, so...I must have not been clear on that point. Much to my embarrassment. This is why I write such loooooooong posts...trying to be VERY CLEAR. heh Obviously, I failed on this one.

    Hm. Now I want to find that post I made....
    I didn't say anything of the kind. I said that you knew of this.
    They should all drown in lakes of blood. Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    Has any info been released about Patsy's or John's DNA being found on the longjohns also?
    Of course it would be 'normal' for at least Patsy's DNA to be there (and even John's since he carried the dead body upstairs), but supppose Patsy's DNA was found in exactly the same location as the foreign DNA, then wouldn't this support a transfer theory (= she as the stager of the scene touched the DNA in the underwear and transferred it to the longjohns)?
    Haven't heard a thing. I suspect this is exactly why the DA has clammed up.
    They should all drown in lakes of blood. Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    8,381

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    Quote Originally Posted by Watching You View Post
    Elle, I'm not sure what you're asking me. Are you asking if the composition of our DNA changes when we die? If so, the answer is no. Nothing can change the composition of our DNA. What can change is the quality of the sample containing the DNA. Under certain conditions, the DNA can degrade and it can become contaminated. A blood sample from a bloody crime scene containing a mixture of victim's (or victims') or killer's DNA is considered contaminated. Anything foreign in a sample of DNA is contamination.

    Degradation of DNA is usually caused by improper storage or environmental conditions.

    One example of how DNA doesn't change is the 9-11 tragedy. Those people on the airplane were blown apart. I doubt very much if they ever recovered enough of them to test. The people in the buildings, however, were crushed and some were found in pieces. I feel lousy about using them as a reference, and I do so in great reverence, because it's important to understand how the remains were identified. A foot, even a toe, could identify a victim (I could just cry thinking about this).

    Another example is identifying the remains of people dead for many years. Scientists can recover DNA from bone marrow and even hair. Decomposition doesn't change DNA, but extreme decomposition can probably make retrieving the DNA not very pleasant.

    Here's a good one for you: what happens to the DNA in patients such as leukemia patients or other cancer patients who have their bone marrow destroyed by high-dose radiation or chemotherapy? Not long ago I read about man who could have gone to prison for a severe sexual assault. The DNA from semen was the same as this man's. However, when the crime was committed, this same man was already in jail on another charge. It turned out that the man who actually committed the sexual assault was bone marrow donor, and the man in jail was the recipient.

    The man in jail will forever carry the DNA of the marrow donor. Could get tricky in court...
    I guess that's what I was asking you WY, if the composition of our DNA changes (?). I'm so glad I asked you to receive this educational reply. So death doesn't change it? You really did learn a lot when you worked for that DNA expert. It's good to have you on hand. That is a strange story about the bone marrow donor. It sounds like something we would see in one of those CSI series. Not fiction, just the truth. So much to learn about this DNA business. Thank you.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watching You View Post
    Actually, it's both stem cell and bone marrow transplants. However, the results are not temporary, they are permanent. All blood cells are manufactured in the bone marrow. When a person's own bone marrow is destroyed and replaced with donor marrow, the blood DNA will forever be that of the donor.

    You are right about the skin DNA and blood DNA being different, though, although, in time, the skin DNA can become contaminated with the donor DNA. Kinda scary.
    Here's an article about it. It's a "Good Grief" one.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article....mg18825234.600
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Punisher View Post
    I didn't say anything of the kind. I said that you knew of this.
    Be gentle with her, Don't want the Diva's pout to come out. That would be more than I could bear...
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Punisher View Post
    I didn't say anything of the kind. I said that you knew of this.

    Okay...let me put it another way: I MISUNDERSTOOD you to say that I had "seen" Van Zandt in PERSON.

    Sorry, I'm having problems communicating all the way round today.... :stupid1:

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles View Post
    Be gentle with her, Don't want the Diva's pout to come out. That would be more than I could bear...
    HA! You spend your every waking minute trying to find ways to put me in a POUT!

    Ba'-heid

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  12. #72

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    Here is the thread with the transcript of Nancy Grace's show discussing Lacy's colossal blunder of clearing the Ramseys because of the "touch" DNA. While the Bode scientist kept calling the "touch" DNA "skin cells", SHE IN FACT LATER STATED IT WAS "MOST LIKELY" SKIN, NOT THAT IT ABSOLUTELY IS FACTUALLY FROM SKIN CELLS:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=9273

    GRACE: Straight out to the lines. Tonight a bombshell. Due to a highly sensitive new DNA technique called touch DNA, we now learn of more DNA discovered on the leggings beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey wore the night she went to bed, the night that she was killed. That DNA, a male DNA, matches DNA found in her underwear.

    Straight back out to Angela Williamson, the lead scientist who worked with Bode Technology on the Ramsey case. Was the DNA sperm?

    WILLIAMSON: The DNA profile we obtained was not from spermatozoa.

    GRACE: That only leaves hair, skin, nails. Do we know what substance it was?

    WILLIAMSON: The area that we sampled from, there was no visible staining. We believe it to be touch DNA, most likely skin cells from maybe someone`s hand.

    GRACE: Skin cells, OK. Angela, Ms. Williamson, the DNA found inside the 6-year-old`s underwear, the inside crotch of her underwear, mingled with her blood -- was that DNA sperm?

    WILLIAMSON: We actually did not do that testing. It is my belief that it was not from sperm, though. However, that testing was done by the Denver PD.

    GRACE: Thank you. Back to Nia Bender with 710 KNUS. The DNA found in JonBenet`s underwear, was it sperm? Do we know what it was?

    BENDER: We do not know what was in the underwear. They have never really clarified whether there was sperm in the underwear or not.

    GRACE: OK, let`s ask Ollie Gray. Ollie, you and John San Agustin say that you have had inside information, that you`ve been able to review the files. Was the DNA in her underwear sperm?

    GRAY: As far as I know, it was not sperm.

    GRACE: What was it?

    GRAY: It was a liquid, and it could have been either from the mouth, or it could have been from an insertion into the vagina area of part of the paintbrush that caused the fluid. As you remember, it was also mixed with blood.
    "WE BELIEVE...MOST LIKELY...MAYBE..."? WHAT?!!

    What kind of CLEARING is going on here? I can't see how this scientist can speak repeatedly of this "touch" DNA being SKIN CELLS left when "touching" the longjohns, and then when asked POINT BLANK if they ARE in FACT skin cells, say "most likely", as if it's not important enough to be 100% POSITIVE WHEN A CHILD WAS MURDERED!

    It kind of seems to be THE WHOLE POINT!!

    But hey, ANY DISINFORMATION IN A STORM !!

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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