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  1. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    That's a difficult question, WV. We once had a lot more photos, but lots of the sites that kept them have closed up shop or taken lots of them down.

    This is again why I wish we could have access to the same photos Smit controls, though his copies were organized and made at the expense of the citizens of Co while he worked for the DA.

    Did you check ACR's site KK? BJ has the best collection I've ever come across.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  2. #86

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    Just to gather info on this topic and thread for future reference: I wrote this up at topix in a discussion with rashomon and others about the blood on the nightgown.

    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    Thanks, KK. On which thread and post number is it at Topix? It drives me crazy that they don't have a search function over there, and I often can't even retrieve my own posts.
    I might as well just put it here, since this thread has turned rogue anyhow.

    koldkase
    Athens, GA
    Reply »
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#77 Wednesday
    Rashomon wrote:

    Where is the source for bloodstains being on the nightgown and on the white top?
    The dried brown-tan stain on the upper right sleeve of white top was mucus (source: autopsy report, p. 2), and I don't recall reading anything about blood being on the nightgown, so if you could direct me to the source where it says that, TIA.
    I saw this question and wanted to answer it for you, rashomon. There are three sources we have, two third hand or worse, but one that backs them up that's fairly solid.

    One is "The Bonita Papers", and Bonita is alleged to have seen the actual police reports because she typed them up. We have access to the content of the "Papers" through a poster online whom I have no personal knowledge of, but maimed and candy hate him so that's good enough for me!

    "Bonita" writes that there was blood on the undies, the top, the blanket, the gown, and the duct tape, all from JonBenet.

    You can find the "Papers" online at FFJ or at ACR's site. Here is a good link to ACR's page on this topic:

    http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-barbie-n...

    Another source is Judge Carnes' "opinion" where we see her list "evidence" of blood on the Barbie gown. Obviously Carnes got lots of info WRONG, as you can see in this very quote from her opinion regarding the blood on the gown:

    "A "Barbie" nightgown belonging to JonBenet was also found in the wine cellar near her body.(SMF 149: PSMF 149.) JonBenet's blood was found only on her body and the Barbie nightgown."

    You can find the full Carnes' opinion at ACR's site as well.

    We have some other sources that corroborate both the above mentioned sources say. If you remember, in Patsy's interview with Haney in 1998, I think, "brown" stains are mentioned, seen on the blanket found wrapped around JonBenet. Also, in that interview, "stains" on JB's pillow case are mentioned, and Patsy is asked if JB had nosebleeds, so it's logical that it was JB's blood on the pillowcase.

    Mark Beckner was questioned about "DNAX" in his deposition in the Wolf suit, and while Wood couldn't pin Beckher down to specify the exact location of this DNAX, other than it wasn't on the body nor the clothing on the body, looking at other sources, that must have been either the blanket "brown" stains, the pillowcase stains, the duct tape, and/or blood on the Barbie gown, or a combination of these.

    There is also a source that's almost inarguable, unless Team Ramsey has stooped to making up evidence props for their spin shows: we have a partial screen shot of the DNA results from the lab that processed blood samples from the evidence, and on that list is "Bloodstain from nightgown". It's online somewhere.

    Hope this helps.
    And then I answered a comment, which I may as well put here, too, now that I've started:

    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    Quote Originally Posted by learnin

    It is most likely that the girl hemorrhaged from the ear on the side of the skull fracture. This often happens. I saw an autopsy photo, once, and it looked like JBR had dried blook coming out of her ear...I could be wrong but it looked like that to me..
    I think I know the photo, but it's not possible to determine if it's a shadow or blood, right?

    There were other known orifices that bled.

    JonBenet had bloody mucous or saliva found on the upper right sleeve of her top, where it had dripped from her face--nose and/or mouth, which was turned to the right. That could have been from bloody drainage after she was strangled or bludgeoned.

    Also, she bled from the vaginal injuries that night. If she was molested in her bed, that would explain the blood on the pillowcase. If she was bludgeoned in her bed or room, maybe laid on her pillow after the head blow, that could be the reason. I wonder if LE knows the answers to these questions.

    The blood on the blanket could have come from her lying on the bed, as well, or after the blanket was taken from the bed...? The bedclothes were still neat and secured at the bottom corners, made up in the crime scene photo so that it appeared not to have been ripped out from under the sheet/comforter. Patsy was asked about this in '98. If Patsy took the sheets off to wash after wetting to cover up that fact, why didn't she wash the pillowcase? That's rather intuitive, though of course, anything is possible.

    There is some indication that maid, LHPugh, told LE she had changed the beds a few days before--I think Patsy said that, as well. The question is where was the blanket located before it was taken downstairs and wrapped around JonBenet in the cellar room?

    Same with the gown--where was it before it ended up in the cellar that night? Patsy and John didn't seem to know. Whoever took it to the basement, they had to find it first. Where did the blood found on it come into contact with it? From which injury?

    Remember JonBenet also had blood smeared and dried on her thigh. Her long johns had to be pulled down for that smear to get there, as well. Was it from bloody underwear pulled off of her body, replaced by the overlarge Bloomies? Or was it from a bloody hand or even washcloth that dragged across the leg when she was wiped down?

    If we knew the location of the bloodstains, maybe we could better determine what happened and where.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
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    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  3. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    It has finally occurred to me that Haney was OBSESSED with the pillow/pillowcase on JonBenet's bed when he questioned Patsy in 1998. And now I know WHY.

    I know this is dumb of me, but I couldn't remember this "stain on the pillowcase" issue discussed before. I'm sure it has been, but I've missed it, obviously. Is this "DNA-X"?

    Is the stain identified as JonBenet's blood, on her pillowcase, on her bed?



    Is that where the head blow happened--in her bedroom? Or the molestation? Then she bled on the pillowcase?

    The garrote handle wasn't applied until she was taken downstairs, we can deduce because of the broken paintbrush shards by the paint tray in the basement, the paintbrush shoved into her probably in the basement, as well--though that's not certain by any means, but seems logical not to break the paintbrush until after it was used to stage a "molestation"...or for a molestation, but either way, seems breaking it first would have been illogical.

    If the paintbrush was taken and used on her in the basement, then broken and used for the garrote, back to the bloodly pillowcase in the bedroom: therefore, the blood from her nose/mouth wouldn't have come from strangulation with the garrote until she was taken to the basement, it seems logical to me. If that blood came from her nose, it would have been from the headblow...? Or it could have come from her being molested in her bed. That would account for the issue of the girls size 12/14 Bloomies underwear, too large but being used as the ones she had on were hidden/taken away with other items out of fear they contained evidence against the person molesting her?

    So...the curtain sash over the headboard...the pillow at the foot of the bed...the pillowcase with JonBenet's blood on it.... If I'm reading this correctly, she was either molested in her bed and that's how the blood got on the pillowcase, or she was first attacked in her bedroom and/or taken to her bed at some point after the head blow...?

    Am I completely off here? Or were Haney and DeMuth indicating the pillowcase "stain" was urine? Then why ask about NOSEBLEED?

    I can't believe I have missed this "stain" on the pillowcase all these years. I almost think I remember this being discussed, but in the myraid of things we've chased down in this case through so many discussions, I've forgotten and/or never followed up on it....

    Gosh, seems darn important! Anyone, just jump in and help the old lady out! :stupid1:

    http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/19...w-Complete.htm
    I posted about this, on a thread titled, Patsy's 98 Interview..things strange or out of place, when I first joined FFJ, way over a year ago. I posted that I wonder, if AFTER the head wound..which I believe happened in the bathroom, Patsy may have laid JB on the bed, and she could have bled from her nose, ears, nose...or all three. I also posted a website that explains that after a serious head blow, most likely the victim will bleed from one or all three of these places. JB's head wound did not bleed from the outside....so it couldn't have been from that. I think that when Patsy realized what she had done, she possibly could have put JB on her bed, to try and revive her, and that is possibly where the blood stain on the pillow case came from. IMO

  4. #88
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    The may also have mentioned nosebleeds because they were aware that the autopsy's mention of the tan mucous inferred that she had bled from the nose/mouth and wanted to see whether PR took the bait.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  5. #89

    Default Additinonal bloodstains?

    [All quotes: KK]

    Thanks KK for bringing the topix posts over to FFJ.
    "Bonita" writes that there was blood on the undies, the top, the blanket, the gown, and the duct tape, all from JonBenet.
    Strange though that none of the books on the case mention blood on these items. Steve Thomas was right in the center of the investigation; why would he leave out such crucial blood evidence in his book?
    [As for John's shirt fibers (which ST doesn't mention either), they were discovered in later testings of the evidence, when Thomas was no longer involved].

    Bonita on the other hand does not mention blood on the pillowcase; but still Patsy was asked whether JonBenet had nosebleeds at night.
    Blood could also have seeped from the ear after the head blow. Maybe she was put on the bed after the headblow was struck.
    For the genital wound is so clearly correlated with the cellulose splinter from the paintbrush (it was found in exactly the same spot where wound was), that the infliction of the wound is connected to the basement, wherethe paintbrush was kept.
    Mark Beckner was questioned about "DNAX" in his deposition in the Wolf suit, and while Wood couldn't pin Beckher down to specify the exact location of this DNAX, other than it wasn't on the body nor the clothing on the body, looking at other sources, that must have been either the blanket "brown" stains, the pillowcase stains, the duct tape, and/or blood on the Barbie gown, or a combination of these.
    The foreign DNAX needn't necessarily have come from those stains; for assume they were blood, this would mean the blood was not JonBenet's, and Mary Keenan would probably have screamed such findings from the rooftops.
    There is also a source that's almost inarguable, unless Team Ramsey has stooped to making up evidence props for their spin shows: we have a partial screen shot of the DNA results from the lab that processed blood samples from the evidence, and on that list is "Bloodstain from nightgown". It's online somewhere.
    This of course hard evidence. I vaguey recall having seen similar screenshots online (from a TV show I think); If anyone could dig them up here, TIA.

  6. #90

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    Found the screen shots here:



    Okay, here is a thread here discussing the TRANSCRIPTION of the screen shot from which this info came. It was all discussed many years ago when it was captured from one of Tracey's crocks:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...DNAX+nightgown

    Here is a transcript from that screen shot. (See below, from my original post and a discussion at the above link.)
    LAB CASE XX???-2136(?)-4153(?) SECTION: DNA TESTING
    AGENCY NAME – CD0878136 – F2 BOULDER

    __________ ___________ HOMICIDE - WILLFUL KILL - FAMILY

    EXTRACTED(?) BY: blacked out EXTRACTION DATE: 123196(?)
    ABSTRACT(X) AFA(?) ?/? ??? (would this be the control sample?)

    SUSPECT (S):
    RAMSEY, PATSY W/F
    RAMSEY, JOHN W/M

    VICTIM (S):
    RAMSEY, JONBENET W/F

    Two lines BLACKED OUT
    DATE COMPLETED/JANUARY 13, 1997
    EXTRACT(?) DESCRIPTION
    #5A,5B# Bloodstains from shirt
    #7 Bloodstains from panties
    #14B Bloodstain STANDARD from JonBenet Ramsey
    #14J Swab with Saliva
    #14L, #14M Right and Left hand fingernails from JonBenet Ramsey
    #15A, #15B Samples from tape
    Bloodstains from white blanket
    #17A, #17C Bloodstains from nightgown??
    #13A, #13B Semen ??? stain from black blanket
    Bloodstain Standard from John Andrew Ramsey
    __________________________________________________ _______________(fold in page??)
    Here is the other screen shot from the lab reports:


    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  7. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    [All quotes: KK]

    Thanks KK for bringing the topix posts over to FFJ.

    Strange though that none of the books on the case mention blood on these items. Steve Thomas was right in the center of the investigation; why would he leave out such crucial blood evidence in his book?

    [As for John's shirt fibers (which ST doesn't mention either), they were discovered in later testings of the evidence, when Thomas was no longer involved].
    I believe Steve Thomas didn't mention a lot of evidence. Remember, his book came out PRE-SMIT'S MEDIA BLITZ ATTACK. Until Smit came out with all the spin and PROPAGANDA he distributed, selected by him to promote Ramsey innocence, much of what we know now was not available. Of course, the price paid was that Smit didn't show anything he considered evidence AGAINST the Ramseys. Thomas, however, mostly wrote about evidence already leaked or discussed with the public. The Ramseys own book talked about some of this, as well, again selected for spin.

    Then there is also evidence that wasn't being focused on or hadn't been processed before Thomas left the case. In Thomas's Wolf deposition, he is asked about this and he clearly knew little about the significance of the size of the Bloomies, IMO. Remember, the medical examiner didn't even bother to take photos of the underwear ON JonBenet's body, Thomas revealed. So there has been evidence developed since then...mostly by JAYELLES, WHY NUT, AND PEOPLE LIKE US, sadly enough.

    For the genital wound is so clearly correlated with the cellulose splinter from the paintbrush (it was found in exactly the same spot where wound was), that the infliction of the wound is connected to the basement, wherethe paintbrush was kept.
    Excellent observation! The only thing we don't know is if the prior molestation wounds were inflicted on her bed, in the basement, or where. Since they happened before that night, we don't have any proof one way or the other where. I personally believe that there was a crisis due to Patsy discovering that JonBenet was bleeding vaginally. Patsy probably noticed this in JonBenet's underwear, maybe as early as Dec. 17, when the three mysterious after hour calls to Dr. Beuf were made. Patsy said she didn't remember what for. If LE never bothered to check Dr. Beuf's records, I don't know why, as it would seem CRITICAL in such a murder investigation. Thomas mentioned some of these issues, but as we all know, Hunter was doing all he could to obstruct the investigation from DAY ONE, IMO, and I feel that Dr. Beuf was in on the cover up, as well, because his medical reputation was at stake. Why wouldn't there be a record of what Patsy called Dr. Beuf's office about? I don't understand that at all. But I digress....

    If JonBenet was molested within one to three days or so before her murder, it could have taken place in her bed and spots could have gotten on the pillowcase and maybe Patsy didn't notice, not making the beds up. The maid had changed the bedclothes and a timeline was established for this in the '98 interview. So those pillowcase bloodstains had to have happened after that. Precisely when, we don't know.

    The foreign DNAX needn't necessarily have come from those stains; for assume they were blood, this would mean the blood was not JonBenet's, and Mary Keenan would probably have screamed such findings from the rooftops.
    Beckner would not be cornered on the DNAX, but it can be deduced from what he says that the DNAX donar was identified. That's because he says Wolf's DNA was not compared to it, but he is excluded from contributing to it, if memory serves. The only way Wolf could be excluded from contributing it without a comparison was if it had been sourced. Or maybe it was proven to be FEMALE, now that I think of that. They did test the maid's daughter somewhat late in the investigation, a few years?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #92
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    Default Kk....

    I have offered the opinion many times over the years that "The Good Dr" was involved in not only the cover-up of Jon Benet's murder but also in a longer term cover-up of Jon Benet's molestation.

    He and John were golfing buddies we found out and he had been Jon Benet's pediatrician for as long as they lived in Boulder...He HAD to suspect that something was UP.

    He was evasive with both questioning and his office records, some of which went in the same file as the Ramsey phone records, floating out there some place in the universe....

    Cover-up is an understatement for what Hunter, and John's other attorney and political buddies did with this murder case....One of the most shameful examples of obstruction of justice that I have come accross....

    Johnny-boy had friends accross a wide spectrum of society in Colorado and elsewhere and made (spelled purchased) friends like Smit as he needed them when the case heated up and headed toward a Grand Jury....

    Between Patsy's charm and religious flair and John's manipulation and money, they pretty well had the bases covered.

    Dr. Beuf was a real bonus for them, lying and protecting the family whenever approached....And like his buddies John and Patsy, he had a terrible memory doncha know! ....

    I think that his reputation in Boulder was damaged though by having this strong connection to the Ramsey case and he closed down his practice and moved, I believe shortly after the Grand Jury testimony....

    Would like to know where the Good Dr. is these days and if he has set up a pediatric practice in another city....Surely hope not.

    Voyager

  9. #93

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    I completely agree with your run down of these people, Voyager. I cannot imagine covering up such abuse of a child for any reason, but then, I've learned that morals and justice are not on the list of character traits describing the many who obstructed this investigation.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    I have offered the opinion many times over the years that "The Good Dr" was involved in not only the cover-up of Jon Benet's murder but also in a longer term cover-up of Jon Benet's molestation.

    He and John were golfing buddies we found out and he had been Jon Benet's pediatrician for as long as they lived in Boulder...He HAD to suspect that something was UP.

    He was evasive with both questioning and his office records, some of which went in the same file as the Ramsey phone records, floating out there some place in the universe....

    Cover-up is an understatement for what Hunter, and John's other attorney and political buddies did with this murder case....One of the most shameful examples of obstruction of justice that I have come accross....

    Johnny-boy had friends accross a wide spectrum of society in Colorado and elsewhere and made (spelled purchased) friends like Smit as he needed them when the case heated up and headed toward a Grand Jury....

    Between Patsy's charm and religious flair and John's manipulation and money, they pretty well had the bases covered.

    Dr. Beuf was a real bonus for them, lying and protecting the family whenever approached....And like his buddies John and Patsy, he had a terrible memory doncha know! ....

    I think that his reputation in Boulder was damaged though by having this strong connection to the Ramsey case and he closed down his practice and moved, I believe shortly after the Grand Jury testimony....

    Would like to know where the Good Dr. is these days and if he has set up a pediatric practice in another city....Surely hope not.

    Voyager
    Apparently he is STILL in Boulder..but rumor has it...according to one of these links, that he is getting ready to retire. Apparently the parents of his patients think that he is great.

    http://www.thepediatriccenter.net/beuf.html

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/bould...endations.html

    http://local.yahoo.com/info-19641149...center-boulder

    http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008...llow-the-herd/

  11. #95
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    Default KK Post #86

    KK

    From your post #86

    Also, she bled from the vaginal injuries that night. If she was molested in her bed, that would explain the blood on the pillowcase. If she was bludgeoned in her bed or room, maybe laid on her pillow after the head blow, that could be the reason. I wonder if LE knows the answers to these questions.
    I personally don't think JonBenét was molested in her bed that night while she was still alive. The blood could have been caused by the staging shortly after she was dead, using part of the brush shaft to either destroy previous evidence of molestation in her vagina, or create the damage to make investigators think there was sexual play involved with the perpetrator. By the time the fake garrote was created and entangled in her hair, JonBenét was already dead or close to it.

    I think JonBenét was killed accidentally by her enraged mother, Patsy Ramsey, with the blow to the head from either striking against something - bathtub maybe, or by being thrown at it full force, or maybe with the flashlight in the kitchen (?).

    I haven't changed my thinking in years. I also think with the family heading for Charlevoix early the next morning, Patsy Ramsey's nerves were frazzled with all that she had been through that Christmas of 1996.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  12. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    KK

    From your post #86



    I personally don't think JonBenét was molested in her bed that night while she was still alive. The blood could have been caused by the staging shortly after she was dead, using part of the brush shaft to either destroy previous evidence of molestation in her vagina, or create the damage to make investigators think there was sexual play involved with the perpetrator. By the time the fake garrote was created and entangled in her hair, JonBenét was already dead or close to it.

    I think JonBenét was killed accidentally by her enraged mother, Patsy Ramsey, with the blow to the head from either striking against something - bathtub maybe, or by being thrown at it full force, or maybe with the flashlight in the kitchen (?).

    I haven't changed my thinking in years. I also think with the family heading for Charlevoix early the next morning, Patsy Ramsey's nerves were frazzled with all that she had been through that Christmas of 1996.
    I think so too. And I think that after the accidental blow to the head, that she was knocked unconsious. (I think that the neighbor that heard a child's scream, and then recanted her statement...actually was hearing Patsy, after she had realized what she had done). I think that Patsy probably yelled for John, and either he or Patsy or both..picked JB up and laid her on her bed, to try and revive her. IMO...she was most likely bleeding from either or all of these...her ears, nose and mouth. That is where I believe the blood stain came from. Also, refresh my memory..I am being too lazy to scroll up and read it myself..LOL...was it on the pillow CASE or the pillow itself?? If it was on the pillowcase, I don't know how Patsy could have missed it...now, if she bled through the pillowcase, and onto the pillow...and then Patsy CHANGED the original pillowcase, and didn't notice the blood stain on the actual pillow itself...that would make more sense.

    Edited to add..I just went back and looked at the interview, it looks as if they were talking about the pillow CASE. I wonder if Patsy washed and dried the sheets and pillowcase on JB's bed that night, and the blood stain did not come out. That is what it sounds like to me. Maybe, JB wet the bed, and then there was the blood that came from either her ears, nose, or mouth...or all the above...on the pillowcase, so Patsy washed and dried those and put them back on the bed. BECAUSE she knew that the housekeeper would know which sheets were on that bed, since she is the one that washed, dried, and put the bedding back on all the beds.



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