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  1. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    The problem with the idea that "milk product residue" wasn't mentioned in the autopsy for me is that I have no knowledge of how milk products are digested and how they might actually appear in the intestinal track at autopsy. All I've ever seen about the lab report on the pineapple is what we've read in books, etc., for that matter, not the lab report, so maybe you know more about this and can point us in the right direction, rashomon.
    From the autopsy report:

    G.I. Tract: The esophagus is empty. It is lined by gray-white mucosa. The stomach contains a small amount (8-11cc) of viscous to green to tan colored thick mucous material without particulate matter identified. The gastic [sic]mucosa is autolyzed but contains no areas of hemorrhage or ulceration. The proximal portion of the small intestine containes fragmented pieces of yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple. No hemorrhage is identified. The remainder of the small intestine is unremarkable. The large intestine contains soft green fecal material. The appendix is present.
    http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet07.gif

    According to this official primary source, it looks there was nothing but pineapple in the upper portion of the small intestine.

    One could do a Google search re digestion rates of milk products, and how they appear in the G.I, or I might ask the M.D. ("Elvis")
    A good while ago, I asked her about technical terms like "autolyzed" etc, and she explained it is a normal finding indicating that digestion had advanced to a certain stage.

  2. #38

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    Well, if you can ask Elvis that would be great. Is she still posting on a public forum?

    I've asked learnin, the x-ray tech with whom we're having the pineapple rate of digestion discussion at topix. It will be interesting to see what he says.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

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    My opinions, nothing more.

  3. #39
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    Default milk

    As milk is a liquid it digests faster than pineapple. I don't believe it would be identifiable by appearance only. I am sure it would not appear white in the small intestines and would be mixed possibly with bile, making it greenish in color, if it did make it to the small intestine before being absorbed.

  4. #40
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    Milk and milk products would be broken down as lactose. Because mild products are found in so many things (casein, a milk product is found in many products) it wouldn't be unusual to find lactose. But like all sugars, lactose is quickly metabolized. Fresh fruit, like pineapple, takes longer.
    Looking at the photo, it is hard to tell whether there is milk or cream in the bowl with the pineapple, or just the white china bowl showing through. I do recall reading something long ago about Patsy fixing pineapple and cream for JB often- pineapple was a favorite snack.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  5. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Texan View Post
    As milk is a liquid it digests faster than pineapple. I don't believe it would be identifiable by appearance only. I am sure it would not appear white in the small intestines and would be mixed possibly with bile, making it greenish in color, if it did make it to the small intestine before being absorbed.
    That's what I would expect, too, Texan.

    The poster "learnin" at topix actually is an x-ray tech who has decades of experience taking those x-rays of the digestive system some of us have had the unpleasant opportunity to experience. The kind where you drink something like Pepto Bismal X 10, try not to throw up while it travels through you as an x-ray is being taken of that little trip. Learnin has insight into how long it takes pineapple to reach the small intestine where it was found in JonBenet for that reason. He not only has the experience, he asked several doctors about it, and then he did his own test on pineapple traveling through his own system. I'm going to ask him if I could bring his posts here on this.

    Learnin estimates it would have taken less than 30 minutes for the pineapple to go from being eaten to the small intestine of JonBenet. It could have taken as few as 10 minutes, he says. Of course, that's without other variables involved, like stress and illness, etc., which we have no way of knowing about. But it's interesting to take learning's observations and apply them to what we know, isn't it?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  6. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    Milk and milk products would be broken down as lactose. Because mild products are found in so many things (casein, a milk product is found in many products) it wouldn't be unusual to find lactose. But like all sugars, lactose is quickly metabolized. Fresh fruit, like pineapple, takes longer.
    Looking at the photo, it is hard to tell whether there is milk or cream in the bowl with the pineapple, or just the white china bowl showing through. I do recall reading something long ago about Patsy fixing pineapple and cream for JB often- pineapple was a favorite snack.
    It is hard to tell what we're looking at because we never get to see that good of quality of photos, just what Team Ramsey decided we could see via quick shots from propaganda programs they promoted.

    Having said that, it does look like there is something milky in the bowl to me.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  7. #43

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    I'm going to put some topix.com forum discussion and the results of an experiment done regarding the timeline for the digestion of pineapple here, with poster learnin's permission. I think it's very interesting as it really focuses the timeline in a way we haven't had done before, much like (Jayelles' experiment with the Bloomies' modeling).

    It has been a long and detailed discussion, however. So I'm going to include mostly pertinent posts from learnin and myself, because I have learnin's permission. I did include some quotes of others as they were pertinent, but if those posters want them removed, just tell me at topix on the thread.

    Otherwise, I've edited out other posts and some "quotes" which were being addressed because there are some contentious posters trying to disrupt the discussion, as usual, and I doubt they'd want their posts here anyway. Also, I don't want to copy the whole thread, either, so you can go to the link and read it in full if you want. This is a very good discussion of the pineapple, with the timeline and physiology clarified better than I've seen before.

    [I'm not sure if I should start a new thread, so if the mods think that would be better, I'll let them start a new thread and take this and the following posts there.]

    So I'll put the link and then the posts. Hope this is as informative for you as it is for me:

    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonb...1C2AUAVTNAV02M

    learnin Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#1 Wednesday Aug 5
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    I have been a medical imaging technologist for 40 years. During this time, I have watched at least 1,000 stomachs empty.

    As soon as liquid or solid substance lands into an empty stomach, peristalsis begins and wave after wave of muscle contraction begins pushing material through the duodenal cap into the duodenum of the small intestine.

    The only time this would not happen is in the event of an obstruction, gastritis, bowel paralysis due to trauma or other sickness, etc.

    Jonbenet's G.I. tract was not compromised by gastritis, obstruction or paralyisis. We know this because the little girl's upper G.I. tract was empty except for several pieces of UNDIGESTED pineapple. Her gastrointestinal tract was operating quite efficiently.

    This little girl had an empty stomach when she bit into the pineapple. The flavor of the pineapple would have caused saliva to be secreted and peristalsis to begin.

    My experience tells me that those pieces of pineapple (no more than they were), would have been going into the small intestine within 10 minutes.

    I believe the first blow was struck no later than 30 minutes after she ate the pineapple.
    koldkase
    Athens, GA
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    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#3 Wednesday Aug 5
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    Wow, learnin! That's some statement you have made. Where have you BEEN for 12 years?

    So if your timeline were correct, let's follow it.(And to keep shrill from having a seizure and breaking his head open--let me say we're having a DISCUSSION about some information upon which we will SPECULATE.)

    According to the Ramseys, they got home about 9:30ish and JonBenet was asleep.

    Then Burke, Patsy, and John went to bed themselves during the next hour, with John going last around 10:30ish.

    So if JonBenet didn't eat the pineapple at the Whites, nor at the Stines, nor in the car on the way home, when her parents said she fell asleep, then she either woke up later and ate it and was then killed shortly afterwards, or Patsy and John lied about her being asleep and she went in and ate it at some point and never went to bed or went and was killed shortly after.

    Burke, on the other hand, said JonBenet walked upstairs on her own when they got back home.

    Burke and Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl, and Burke's were on the glass of tea. We don't know when it was put out nor how long it was there, because--amazingly enough--Patsy doesn't even remember OWNING the bowl, spoon, and glass.(HAHAHAHA Sorry, that Patsy always gets to me. Soon as Patsy began denying the silliest thing, voila! DISTANCING! Patsy doth protest too much....)

    Well, this is just interesting. I never thought about the timeline from eating the pineapple to death being that short. I'm going to have to ponder this....

    Thanks so much for sharing your professional experience and knowledge on this, learnin. You have no idea how helpful this is to those of us who have argued about this for a decade.

    koldkase
    Athens, GA
    Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#4 Wednesday Aug 5
    Oh, let me add that rigor mortis was set in at least the upper limbs when the body was "found" at 2 pm, so that's something like 10 to 12 hours after death, right? The TOD has most often been speculated to have been around midnight to one because of that and the digestion of the pineapple. Medical examiner Dr. Meyers refused to give a TOD, as he didn't manage to even show up at the crime scene and look at the body until that evening at 8:20 pm, AMAZINGLY ENOUGH, and didn't do the autopsy until the next morning.
    learnin Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#10 Thursday Aug 6
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    [quote snipped questioning the credentials of the sources]

    How about an M.D. radiologist? Who is a Medical Imaging specialist. I've asked several and they all have said that, within 15 minutes, the pineapple would be going into the samll intestine.

    I am a certified Xray Technologist, Registered Diagnostic Medical Sonographer, Registered Vascular Technologist and a Registered Cardiac Diagnostic Sonographer.

    I am often asked my opinion by "specialists".

    You're always going to find an "expert" who will have a different opinion...someone who will stretch it out to two hours....

    I'm telling you what I know to be a fact. The only thing that might move my timeline back to an hour would be where in the proximal small bowel that pineapple was found. The proximal small bowel is several feet in length...was it found right after the stomach or a foot down the road?

    At this point, I've seen such conflicting data put forth, by experts, about the flashlight, the ransom note, the garrotte, about profiling et., al., that, minus a confession, we're not going to prosecute this thing.

    My objective here is to whittle the scenarios down, with the help of others, to a precious few possibilities. Since I can't trust the fraking experts, who will crawl out of the woodwork to even cloudy the O.J. Simpson case, I'll rely on what I know about digestion, behavior, etc.
    learnin
    Onaga, KS
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    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#28 Thursday Aug 6
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    Folks,
    Over my lunch hour, I performed the following experiment on myself. I soaked some pineapple pieces in a mixture of three tablespoons of barium which had a consistency equal to cream. I had to use barium in order to visualize the pineapple in my stomach and small intestine. Not only that, I figured there is a good chance that JBR's pineapple was in a dish of cream or milk. This was done on an empty stomach, like JBR's. I remained standing and walked around in between visualizing my digestive process.
    Here is the results.

    11:36: I began chewing and swallowing the pineapple and I did not chew much, choosing to swallow bigger chunks so no one can say that my chunks were smaller than JBR's.

    11:38: I visualized the pineapple and barium resting in the pylorus of my stomach.

    11:44: I watched as 4 chunks of pineapple exited the duodenal cap and poured into my small intestine. Once in the small intestine, these chunks raced through the first part of the small intestine with good speed.

    11:50: As I visualized my stomach, I saw five or six pieces of pineapple exit my stomach. By this time,(14 minutes) two thirds of the pineapple eaten had exited my stomach. The first pieces of pineapple were far into my small intestine!

    By 30 minutes, my stomach was completely empty and much of the pineapple was already in the second part of my small intestine.

    Folks, this little girl was accosted within 30 minutes of eating that pineapple! Bank on it.
    Last edited by koldkase; August 11, 2009, 9:39 am at Tue Aug 11 9:39:17 UTC 2009.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #44

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    Continuting the discussion at topix.com:

    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonb...AUAVTNAV02M/p2

    learnin
    Onaga, KS
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    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#30 Thursday Aug 6
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    [Quote snipped which was alleging the amount of time the pineapple stayed in the small intestine was more important than how long it took to move through the stomach into the small intestine.]

    You're wrong. See my experiment results above. The biggest obstacle, facing, food fragments, in the upper G. I. tract, is the duodenal cap. Once peristalsis manages to squeeze food particles past this, food generally races through the small intestine just as mine did. The pineapple I ate, once past the duodenal cap, raced through the loops of the small intestine.

    I have seen colostomies, placed at the end of the small intestine, thereby bypassing the large intestine; I've seen these colostomies pour out food within 30 minutes of being eaten...having made it through the entire small intestine

    learnin
    Onaga, KS
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    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#31 Thursday Aug 6
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    [Quote snipped.]

    There were no food fragments in this girls stomach and small bowel except pineapple. This is consistent with the girl having eaten lightly at the White's and having nothing else to eat until she ate that pineapple at home. Vomiting does not come into play here. The girls stomach was empty at the time her head was whacked so she did not vomit food fragments.

    I administer radiological tests and CT scans where a contrast medium is injected which, sometimes, causes people to become nauseous because their brain center detects something foreign in the blood stream and tells the stomach to get rid of it...thinking the stomach is the culprit. We have all people, receiving contrast, to come in fasting to lessen the possibility of nausea and so, if they do vomit, they won't aspirate...
    koldkase
    Athens, GA
    Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#46 Thursday Aug 6
    [Quote snipped asking about "stress" which might have slowed up the digestion time.]

    Well, this is the usual problem we run into, isn't it? What circumstances might have happened that changed the timeline for digestion?
    It's the same with the head blow vs the strangulation.

    It was my impression that the Whites had no pineapple at their home/party. If I remember correctly, they were asked.

    Of course, there is the "quick stop" at the Stines. We only have what the Stines said about that and what the Ramseys said.

    Gosh. I never thought about this before: what if JB ate the pineapple at the Stines? Or what if Susan Stine gave it to JonBenet in a baggie or something, to take home, and it was then put in the bowl for her and Burke to eat before bed? JB could have eaten a few pieces on the way, then Burke put the rest in the bowl with some milk and got a glass for tea. Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl and glass. Patsy's was on the bowl, but she might have put the bowl into a cabinet after washing it or while emptying the dishwasher, etc.
    Or none of the above.

    It's all purely speculative, of course, but then that's all we have. We know Susan Stine is a willing liar and deceiver, as her little email adventures have proven. We know the Ramseys lied about so much, it's a joke to imagine they weren't culpable in this murder in some way. So that's why we can't truly know what exactly happened without simply using the evidence to get to the truth.

    Which is why I think learnin's observations are worth thinking about because it's an important piece of the puzzle, as regards the timeline of what happened that night to JonBenet.
    I'm still thinking....

    Wasn't JonBenet ill that day? Again, all we have is Patsy's word on this, but she did say JonBenet was not feeling well. Or am I thinking of Christmas Eve?

    learnin Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#49 Thursday Aug 6
    [Quote snipped, same question about stress on the digestion.]

    Well, the question then is, when did this stress and excitement occur? Was she her normal self at the Whites? If she was stressed at the Whites, why did the little she ate there have no trouble rushing through the ugi tract? Or did she not eat a thing at the Whites and ate the pineapple before going to the Whites? That leaves the pineapple in her stomach and first part of the small intestine for at least eight hours...

    learnin Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#50 Thursday Aug 6
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    We have to keep in mind that pineapple was photographed in a bowl, on a table, in the Ramsey home the morning of the 911 call. No one knew, at that time, that there was pineapple in JBR's UGI tract. A day later, LE knew there was. Pineapple in a bowl, in the Ramsey home and pineapple in the girls ugi tract. hmmmm...

    I thought I read somewhere where the pineapple was matched to the pineapple in the bowl?

    At any rate. That pineapple came from the Ramsey home. One of two choices. She ate the pineapple before going to the Whites, and ate nothing the rest of the night, or she ate the pineapple after coming home and before being assaulted.

    If she ate anything at the Whites, and the best evidence says that she did, then, her gi tract was not compromised because that food was no where in sight in the ugi tract.
    learnin Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#51 Thursday Aug 6
    Patricia Fox wrote:

    It's great to see someone go the extra mile to prove a point. I commend you.
    Thanks. Patricia, you get to thinking that maybe your nuts. You begin to question what you've witnessed your whole professional career after reading so many posters challenging what you know to be fact.

    I had a very easy way to prove my point and it was right at my fingertips. I have some age on me and I figure, if anything, my peristaltic action might be a little slower than a childs. But,the timeline was just as I expected if not even quicker. Just as I had seen a thousand times before, the pineapple rested in the pylorus...several peristaltic waves tried to push it into the duodenal cap but failed...then, suddenly, within about two minutes, the contractions did the job and began pushing the first bits into the small intestine. These bits went cascading through the first loops of small intestine.... the human body is an amazing machine.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #45

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    Continued topix.com pineapple discussion:

    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonb...AUAVTNAV02M/p5

    koldkase
    Athens, GA
    Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#99 Saturday Aug 8
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    jameson wrote:
    Ever have a child get sick in the night and vomit in hir bed? It can be a mess when the stomach contents are emptied via vomiting.
    Stomach contents -- not intestine contents. That doesn't happen during a normal vomiting episode. The stomach empties, NOT the intestines!
    The pineapple was not in her stomach but in her intestines and no one close to the investigation believes for a minute that she was fed it shortly before her death. It was eaten some time earlier in the day -- and could have been eaten before the family went to dinner at the Whites".
    Pineapple was found in the Ramsey house, on the breakfast nook table. Prints lead investigators to believe Burke put it on the table - his prints were on the bowl and spoon.(Patsy's were as well but that can be explained by her putting the dishes away after the dishwasher had run.)
    If she was running around the house and saw the bowl of pineapple -- it is not unlikely that she grabbed a piece or two with her fingers -- hours before her death.
    So are you claiming that JonBenet threw up that night? Gosh, I thought you claimed all these years that Patsy did not wash the sheets. So what happened to all that vomit? Did Patsy forget to mention it for some reason that would be hard to believe, since it would seem an important detail in the investigation of her child's murder.

    Are you now confirming what shill posted not that long ago about Burke and the pineapple bowl: did Burke tell LE he put the pineapple on the table?

    Not to mention, what about a source for Burke's fingerprints being on that spoon. I've never seen anyone say that before. Are you confused? Or do you have a source for that you might actually name? (Like that is gonna' happen.)
    koldkase
    Athens, GA
    Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#100 Saturday Aug 8
    Learnin, I have a digestion question for you which you may have answered, so I apologize if I'm asking for a repeat.

    There has been a debate for some time, you probably know, about there being cream/milk in the bowl of pineapple. Nothing is mentioned in the autopsy report about "milk" being in the intestine or stomach, however, so that's argued as proof there was no milk/cream in the bowl.

    My question is: do you know if "milk/cream" shows up in some visually identifiable way in the approximate location in the small intestine where the pineapple was found? In other words, would the medical examiner have been able to identify milk or cream in the intestine, as well, without a lab report identifying it first?

    Any light you could shed on this issue is appreciated, and thanks in advance.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [The following post is being put here out of order: the response from learnin to my question above was further along in the actual thread, but I'm putting it here to keep the point focused.]

    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonb...AUAVTNAV02M/p7

    learnin Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#125 Saturday
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    koldkase wrote:
    Learnin, I have a digestion question for you which you may have answered, so I apologize if I'm asking for a repeat.
    There has been a debate for some time, you probably know, about there being cream/milk in the bowl of pineapple. Nothing is mentioned in the autopsy report about "milk" being in the intestine or stomach, however, so that's argued as proof there was no milk/cream in the bowl.
    My question is: do you know if "milk/cream" shows up in some visually identifiable way in the approximate location in the small intestine where the pineapple was found? In other words, would the medical examiner have been able to identify milk or cream in the intestine, as well, without a lab report identifying it first?
    Any light you could shed on this issue is appreciated, and thanks in advance.
    Sorry, kk, just got in from a trip. First of all, remember that, if the pineapple was in a bowl of milk, cream, that JBR might have eaten the pineapple without much cream or milk being involved except for what little might have clung to the chunks. If she used a spoon, we could expect a little more.

    Because the amount might have been very small, it's likely anything would really show up much. I do remember reading the autopsy report last week (I'll have to look it up again) and it stated that, in the stomach, there was a small amount of mucous along with a small amount of fluid. I do know that dairy products are known to produce phlegm and mucous in the G.I. tract.

    At any rate, I doubt if they did analyze this mucous and small amount of fluid which was in the stomach. Probably, at the time, they really hadn't made a connection.....and then the body was flown out of Dodge quickly, so to speak. Really think they should have exhumed that body especially after Lou came up with the stun gun thing.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    koldkase
    Athens, GA
    Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#102 Saturday Aug 8
    learnin wrote:

    Thanks. Patricia, you get to thinking that maybe your nuts. You begin to question what you've witnessed your whole professional career after reading so many posters challenging what you know to be fact.
    I had a very easy way to prove my point and it was right at my fingertips. I have some age on me and I figure, if anything, my peristaltic action might be a little slower than a childs. But,the timeline was just as I expected if not even quicker. Just as I had seen a thousand times before, the pineapple rested in the pylorus...several peristaltic waves tried to push it into the duodenal cap but failed...then, suddenly, within about two minutes, the contractions did the job and began pushing the first bits into the small intestine. These bits went cascading through the first loops of small intestine.... the human body is an amazing machine.
    I agree with PFox: you did a fascinating experiment and the results are a good benchmark for us.

    But as usual, the info we have about the child's eating activities that day is incomplete and skewed by the changing stories of so many.

    Was JonBenet sick that afternoon? We only have the Ramseys to tell us, and we can't trust what they say, as we wouldn't trust what anyone said under such circumstances. But don't I remember the old nanny from Atlanta telling LE that she called Patsy that day and Patsy told her JonBenet was outside riding her bike? So you see the problem....

    Did JonBenet eat the cracked crab at the Whites'? Honestly, at this moment in time, I can't remember anyone saying she did. I only remember that we have several sources who say that Mrs. White saved some cracked crab for JonBenet because she knew JB loved it and Mrs. White didn't want it to get eaten up before the child got some. Patsy brought up White saving it in an LE interview. Thomas wrote about this, as well. I'm sure LE asked Mrs. White about it. But I can't recall anyone saying JonBenet actually ATE it. Patsy said she didn't know/remember--of course.

    Maybe someone else can help us out with info on whether JonBenet ate that cracked crab--and SOURCES, please, and thanks in advance.
    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonb...AUAVTNAV02M/p6

    learnin Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#121 Saturday Aug 8
    [Quote snipped.]

    When you're talking about pineapple digesting vs. a potato digesting, you're referring to the time it takes for the food stuffs to be broken down, not the length of transit time. Chunks of pineapple do not go through the stomach any slower than chunks of carrot.

    At any rate, my experiment proved that the stomach does not hold onto pineapple.

    It doesn't matter than anyone has stated one hour or two hours. My long experience, and others will back me up, is that several chunks of pineapple, in an empty stomach, will only take 5 to 10 minutes to empty into the small intestine. My experiment verified this.

    The only thing that could negate this finding is if this little girl had gastritis from a stomach virus, trauma, obstruction, etc. If this were the case, where is all the other food she ate that day?


    learnin Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#122 Saturday Aug 8
    jameson wrote:
    Ever have a child get sick in the night and vomit in hir bed? It can be a mess when the stomach contents are emptied via vomiting.
    Stomach contents -- not intestine contents. That doesn't happen during a normal vomiting episode. The stomach empties, NOT the intestines!
    The pineapple was not in her stomach but in her intestines and no one close to the investigation believes for a minute that she was fed it shortly before her death. It was eaten some time earlier in the day -- and could have been eaten before the family went to dinner at the Whites".
    Pineapple was found in the Ramsey house, on the breakfast nook table. Prints lead investigators to believe Burke put it on the table - his prints were on the bowl and spoon.(Patsy's were as well but that can be explained by her putting the dishes away after the dishwasher had run.)
    If she was running around the house and saw the bowl of pineapple -- it is not unlikely that she grabbed a piece or two with her fingers -- hours before her death.
    If everyone in the investigation believes that little girl ate the pineapple earlier in the day, then, it is no wonder this crime has never been solved. They are clearly wrong but I doubt this is the case. The only way she might have eaten that pineapple earlier in the day is if she had a stomach virus and if she never ate any other food.

    Now, as for people vomiting matter only out of the stomach, I should tell you. I have seen very sick people vomit feces out of their mouth....feces....

    Have you ever heard of people vomiting bile? Bile empties into the proximal small intestine from the liver. If they vomit bile, then, this substance is retrograding back into the stomach from the small bowel.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #46

    Default

    Continuing pineapple discussion from topix.com:

    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonb...AUAVTNAV02M/p7

    learnin Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#127 Saturday
    koldkase wrote:

    I agree with PFox: you did a fascinating experiment and the results are a good benchmark for us.
    But as usual, the info we have about the child's eating activities that day is incomplete and skewed by the changing stories of so many.
    Was JonBenet sick that afternoon? We only have the Ramseys to tell us, and we can't trust what they say, as we wouldn't trust what anyone said under such circumstances. But don't I remember the old nanny from Atlanta telling LE that she called Patsy that day and Patsy told her JonBenet was outside riding her bike? So you see the problem....
    Did JonBenet eat the cracked crab at the Whites'? Honestly, at this moment in time, I can't remember anyone saying she did. I only remember that we have several sources who say that Mrs. White saved some cracked crab for JonBenet because she knew JB loved it and Mrs. White didn't want it to get eaten up before the child got some. Patsy brought up White saving it in an LE interview. Thomas wrote about this, as well. I'm sure LE asked Mrs. White about it. But I can't recall anyone saying JonBenet actually ATE it. Patsy said she didn't know/remember--of course.
    Maybe someone else can help us out with info on whether JonBenet ate that cracked crab--and SOURCES, please, and thanks in advance.
    I hope someone can help us out with this, kk, I really do. It is crucial. I can't help but think that the other children present would have seen if she did so, if not some of the parents...at any rate, if this has not been established by LE, they should find out.

    Now as for JBR being sick. I can't help but think , if the little girl was sick to her stomach, that Patsy would have not fixed anything for her to eat at the party.

    What's the chance that she was just getting sick?
    It would be a heckuva coincidence. As for me, I'm thinking about theories which give me a 15 to 30 minute timeline from eating the pineapple to the assault.
    learnin Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#132 Saturday
    Judged:
    1
    1
    I want to thank many of the posters who have been giving some good and relevant input to this topic.

    We're not going to convict anyone off the digestive time line, alone, just as we're not going to do it with the DNA alone.

    I want to clarify a thing or two about what we have discussed to this point concerning digestion.

    Some have raised the issue about different food stuffs digesting slower than others.

    It is true that a 3 cm. chunk of steak will break down slower than a 3 cm. chunk of potato. The digestive acids and enzymes will take longer with the steak, obviously, than with the potato. But, a 3 cm. piece of steak will take no longer to pass out of the stomach than a 3 cm. piece of potato unless, of course, the potato is the first piece to arrive at the opening of the duodenum.

    In anticipation that some might raise an objection of the size of the pieces, I purposely swallowed different sizes of pineapple. I chewed some into rather small pieces, chewed others less and swallowed a few fairly large pieces without chewing at all. All had passed within 30 minutes time.

    We know that JBR did not have any obstruction; she had not had any recent surgery which would have traumatized the intestine thereby paralyzing the intestine in any way.

    The only thing that could have disrupted transit time would be if JBR had moderate to severe gastritis....stomach virus if you wish.

    I believe if there was one minute chance that JBR ate pineapple at home before going to the Whites, or at the Whites, she would have made the claim.

    Some have raised the issue that LE used the time frame of 2 hours between eating the pineapple and death.

    I believe LE was not trying to establish the length of time in minutes. LE wanted to establish the fact that the pineapple was eaten at home. 2 hours was safe for LE. No one was likely to challenge this and it still eliminated the fact that she ate it at the Whites.

    I think giving a more precise time line is important because I think it almost eliminates certain theories one being the Lou Smit theory.

    I think it is almost certain that the little girl was not sleeping for around two hours, then subdued by a strange in her bed, and taken to the basement for assault.

    If that girl was sleeping for a few hours, she ate pineapple before being assaulted. She knew the person who woke her up, IMO.

    There is a very slight sliver of a chance that a stranger woke her and she went down stairs with him and ate pineapple while down there with him...I just can't buy that.
    l

    earnin Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#133 Saturday
    Judged:
    1
    Sorry. In the post above, the following sentence is confusing.

    I believe if there was one minute chance that JBR ate pineapple at home before going to the Whites, or at the Whites, she would have made the claim.

    It should read:

    I believe if there was one minute chance that JBR ate pineapple at home before going to the Whites, or at the Whites, Patsy would have made the claim after she was told that pineapple was found in JBR's ugi tract.
    learnin Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#137 Saturday
    [Quote snipped.]

    There are three parts to the small intestine. The first part of the small intestine is called the duodenum. The second part is called the jejunum while the third and end segment is the ileum. The ileum enters into the cecum of the colon.

    Food stuffs can proceed through the small intestine quite quickly. In the colon, the process becomes much slower as most moisture, and nutrients, are absorbed.

    The three segments of the small intestine all have different mucosa or inner lining. On xray, with barium, you can see these three distinct patterns of the inner lining.

    Once the pineapple exited my stomach, it really flew through the first portion of my small intestine. After exiting the stomach, the duodenum takes a downward turn before looping back up.

    At the end of the 30 minute exam, pineapple was in the second portion or my jejunum.

    As I read the autopsy report, it states that the pineapple was found in the proximal portion of the small intestine. I have taken that to mean that it was found a short ways past the stomach.

    The reason I feel this way is that, if he meant only that it was somewhere in the 20 foot long duodenum, then, he would have needed to be more specific.

    You state that JBR got the pineapple by herself. She might have gotten it herself, but when if she was taken to bed asleep?
    koldkase
    Athens, GA
    Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#142 Sunday
    Judged:
    2
    learnin wrote:

    I hope someone can help us out with this, kk, I really do. It is crucial. I can't help but think that the other children present would have seen if she did so, if not some of the parents...at any rate, if this has not been established by LE, they should find out.
    Now as for JBR being sick. I can't help but think , if the little girl was sick to her stomach, that Patsy would have not fixed anything for her to eat at the party.
    What's the chance that she was just getting sick?
    It would be a heckuva coincidence. As for me, I'm thinking about theories which give me a 15 to 30 minute timeline from eating the pineapple to the assault.
    As for "vomiting" that evening/night, I think that's off the table. If she'd vomited at the White's party, surely someone would have seen that and told LE. If she'd vomited in the car or at home, there would have been vomit present and the odor is such that LE would have smelled it unless it had been seriously cleaned up. In that case, LE would have smelled the cleaner, as it would have taken a lot to overcome the smell of vomit. At least, this is how I see it from my lifelong experience with children, family illness, and vomit.

    If JonBenet vomited in the Ramsey home that night, how did the Ramseys conceal that so well? She would have gotten it on her clothes, possibly on the carpet or furniture fabric, bedclothes, etc. Did Patsy do laundry to conceal this? Team Ramsey is avid that Patsy did no laundry. All we have is Patsy's and John's story, which we can't trust, of course, but the bed does look slept in, and JonBenet's blood was on the pillowcase, so why would they not have laundered that, as well?

    As you say, where is the proof that the child vomited? One can theorize all day long about what MIGHT have happened, but some kind of evidence must support the theory or it's not going anywhere.

    The autopsy also leaves no indication JonBenet vomited, not near or at TOD, anyway. There is a tiny injury to the tip of the tongue, I believe, and that is in all probability from the teeth at the time of the head blow, because the tongue was not bitten, swollen, or protruding as is often seen during strangulation involving struggle.

    If JonBenet was ill, she played outside that afternoon on her new bike, went to the White's home and played, ate pancakes that morning, her parents say, etc. LE could have asked the other children who played at the Ramseys that day, and they hopefully asked the Whites and others at the party about that. I have often wondered if the alleged illness was in fact related to a crisis in the family, stemming from JonBenet's molestation being discovered by the parents.

    I personally think that there was a tension building up that exploded that night, resulting in JonBenet's death. I think the tension was related to the molestation, but of course, it's just a theory. Whatever brought about that fatal headblow and strangulation, I do believe the family was in a crisis because of the molestation and this somehow factored in.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #47

    Default

    Continuing from topix.com pineapple discussion:

    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonb...AUAVTNAV02M/p8

    koldkase
    Athens, GA
    Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#147 Sunday
    Learnin, I'm working my way through your posts, and thanks so much for taking the time you have to do this.

    May I ask for your permission to copy your posts about your experiments and ruminations regarding the pineapple at Forums For Justice? I'm sure the posters/readers there would love to see what you have to say, as we're discussing this now.

    One more thing: I was reading the Bonita Papers, with which you may be familiar, and it's stated that the pineapple from the table was frozen, and when later tested it was found to be consistent with the pineapple found in JonBenet. Both the intestinal sample and that from the table had some of the rind present and were fresh, as well. Thomas stated this in his book, too.
    [Again, out of order answer from learnin, for continuity.]

    learnin Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#155 Sunday
    Judged:
    1
    koldkase wrote:
    Learnin, I'm working my way through your posts, and thanks so much for taking the time you have to do this.
    May I ask for your permission to copy your posts about your experiments and ruminations regarding the pineapple at Forums For Justice? I'm sure the posters/readers there would love to see what you have to say, as we're discussing this now.
    One more thing: I was reading the Bonita Papers, with which you may be familiar, and it's stated that the pineapple from the table was frozen, and when later tested it was found to be consistent with the pineapple found in JonBenet. Both the intestinal sample and that from the table had some of the rind present and were fresh, as well. Thomas stated this in his book, too.
    Yes, you may do so. I only ask one thing. It needs to be made clear(and I think I've done this somewhere through all these posts) that my transit time facts are based on food particles presented to an empty stomach. For example, if you got up in the morning and ate a few pieces of cantalopue, or pineapple, this will enter the small intestine within minutes.

    Very interesting that the pineapple was matched. It only makes sense, doesn't it. Pineapple in the litle girls ugi tract and pineapple sitting out in a bowl...duh???

    koldkase
    Athens, GA
    Reply
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#149 Sunday
    Judged:
    1
    As much as the RST wants to discard the pineapple as important evidence, it certainly is. Anytime you have an unsolved murder, ALL the evidence is important because it establishes the sequence of events that occurred up to the murder.

    In this case, the pineapple is a bugaboo for THE RAMSEYS, as Lou Smit himself told John, because in all these years, the Ramseys have never explained when JonBenet ate that pineapple FROM THEIR OWN TABLE. Since they were suspects BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION for years, and since no one else has ever been identified as the killer, we can't just ignore the evidence that doesn't fit their stories because we don't like it.

    It's important to know if JonBenet was awake when she got home and ate the pineapple there shortly before her murder. It's important to know if she was asleep and then woke up and ate the pineapple. We have TWO DIFFERENT STORIES from the Ramseys on whether JonBenet was asleep when they got home, after all. We also have Burke's and Patsy's fingerprints on the bowl which contained pineapple that matches that found in JonBenet, and Burke's on the tea glass.

    Evidence also denied by Team Ramsey because they don't want the truth revealed: JonBenet had injuries from prior molestation; Patsy lied to LE about the size of underwear JonBenet wore and how the huge Bloomies got on her that night. Why make excuses for the Ramseys withholding the alleged package of Bloomies from LE, from which the Bloomies found on the body came, for FIVE YEARS, so important to the murder, considering the Holy Grail of DNA they hang onto for dear life? Like the pineapple, these are facts of this case that Team Ramsey will never address honestly because the answer is clear: the Ramseys covered up this crime with staging, lies, and obstruction of the investigation. There is no reason on earth they'd do that for an intruder.

    The FACTS OF EVIDENCE are important: at some point after JonBenet returned home on the night of Dec. 25th, she ate pineapple. She went to the Whites' home around 5 pm, the Ramseys said, and I'm sure the Whites confirmed. She was at the White's for three hours at least, again easily confirmed by witnesses. No one had pineapple there, according to all we've seen from sources who investigated, and no amount of spinning is going to put that pineapple in her mouth more than five hours before her murder, if the Ramseys told the truth that they got home at 9:30 pm and went to bed no later than 10:30.

    Since the pineapple found in the bowl on the table certainly MATCHED the pineapple in JB's system, it's a sure bet she ate that pineapple at home, unless someone else gave the pineapple found in the bowl to her/the Ramseys and has for some reason never told LE, nor have the Ramseys told LE about it, even though they all know important it is.(Argue all you want about the term "matched" but it's statistically absurd to think she ate different pineapple somewhere else and it miraculously was biologically CONSISTENT WITH that found on the table down to the rind, as well. This is the kind of petty argument that makes Team Ramsey look simply desperate to hide the truth.)

    It's important. Don't let the RST distract us from the facts of evidence and the story they tell.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  12. #48

    Default

    The IDI's have a theory re all this (don't recall the title of that documentary with the psychics )
    The intruder walked in on JB when she was in the kitchen having pineapple by herself.



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