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  1. #49
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    Default hhmmm

    I certainly believe the pineapple could move from the stomach within 30 minutes. What has to be reconciled then is the state of rigor mortis when JBR was found with the approximate time of death - I believe I have read that the rigor was consistent with her death occurring between midnight and 1 AM. I could be wrong about that, does anyone else recall the estimated time of death? Anyway, if the pineapple does enter the small intestine and move rapidly from there, then she ate the pineapple well after she got home from the Whites(or maybe we can't believe the Ram's got home about 9:30 PM but much later). With BR's fingerprints on the bowl then there are 3 possibilities, 1. BR and JBR were awake much later than the families arrival home from the Whites (this would have to be between 11:30 PM and 12:30 AM based on the eta of the pineapple to the small bowel) 2. the bowl of pineapple was left out on the table after BR finished eating and JBR got some at a later time than BR or 3. BR finished and the bowl was returned to the frig and later brought out and JBR ate some then.
    The pineapple evidence is very important - second only to the ransom note imo. That is why the RST would have you believe it was eaten before they went to the Whites (I don't think that is a possibility) or that it was eaten before they got home from the Whites. Because the pineapple makes the Ramseys' suspects. Without the pineapple, their story that they came home and put her straight to bed and never saw her alive again is a possibility (with the exception of the silly ransom note of course).
    It strains the logical mind to believe an intruder would take the time to feed JBR her favorite snack in the middle of the night when the intruder could be interrupted at any moment by another member of the family. If you were criminally inclined, would you do that?

  2. #50

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    Very interesting posibility outlined re the pineapple moving very fast.
    Reminds me of the research EasyWriter (D. England) did in that field checking digestion rates of pineapple; he too concluded JonBenet could have died shortly (ten to twenty minutes IIRF) after ingesting the pineapple.

    Suppose it was that close, and if she ate pineapple shortly after coming home, with Burke's figerprints being on the bowl, then imo it is highly unlikely Burke did not know what happened; he may even have been an eyewitness, if not actively involved in her death, striking the head blow in a fierce sibling fight for example.
    ST wrote that Burke was evasive when asked about the pineapple, stating he "couldn't remember" whether they had a snack of pineapple after coming home from the Whites'.

  3. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    Very interesting posibility outlined re the pineapple moving very fast.
    Reminds me of the research EasyWriter (D. England) did in that field checking digestion rates of pineapple; he too concluded JonBenet could have died shortly (ten to twenty minutes IIRF) after ingesting the pineapple.

    Suppose it was that close, and if she ate pineapple shortly after coming home, with Burke's figerprints being on the bowl, then imo it is highly unlikely Burke did not know what happened; he may even have been an eyewitness, if not actively involved in her death, striking the head blow in a fierce sibling fight for example.
    ST wrote that Burke was evasive when asked about the pineapple, stating he "couldn't remember" whether they had a snack of pineapple after coming home from the Whites'.
    I agree. I cannot rule Burke out as having some part in the violence and/or abuse acted upon JonBenet.

    Was that info from Thomas in his book? I can look it up if you don't remember.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  4. #52
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    Default shortly after they got home

    If the Ramseys got home around 9:30 and the time of death was between midnight and 1 AM (based on rigor mortis) then either the pineapple moved slower than usual through her system or JBR and BR didn't share the pineapple shortly after arriving home. The math doesn't fit. It's a puzzle isn't it?

  5. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I agree. I cannot rule Burke out as having some part in the violence and/or abuse acted upon JonBenet.

    Was that info from Thomas in his book? I can look it up if you don't remember.
    IIRC, the info about Burke saying he couldn't remember is in ST's book.

  6. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Texan View Post
    If the Ramseys got home around 9:30 and the time of death was between midnight and 1 AM (based on rigor mortis) then either the pineapple moved slower than usual through her system or JBR and BR didn't share the pineapple shortly after arriving home. The math doesn't fit. It's a puzzle isn't it?
    The body was in full rigor mortis when found. For how long does a body stay in full rigor?
    Suppose she died at some time between 10 p.m and 11 p.m. on Dec 25th, would the body still have been in full rigor when she was found at 1 p.m. on Dec 26th?

  7. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    The body was in full rigor mortis when found. For how long does a body stay in full rigor?
    Suppose she died at some time between 10 p.m and 11 p.m. on Dec 25th, would the body still have been in full rigor when she was found at 1 p.m. on Dec 26th?
    I thought the body was not in full rigor when found. I thought the head, upper arms and torso were in stiff with rigor, but the rigor wasn't complete yet in the legs. The scale is numbers, as Dr. Meyers used some numbers in defining the rigor at autopsy.

    Rigor begins at the head and moves downward through the upper extremities and torso, then into the lower parts of the body. It takes ABOUT 12 hours, but circumstances affect the pace, don't they? Like temperature, for example. The cellar room was very cool, wasn't it? That's why they called it the "wine room." Do you remember, Texan, if cool temps slow or speed up rigor? I'm thinking cold slows it. Then the body lay upstairs in heated space, but on the floor, until it was taken to the morgue and refrigerated until autopsy.

    Sorry, I'm fresh out of memory here, but off the top of my head, I was thinking that the low body fat on JonBenet's body, small muscles, etc., also play a part in the speed of rigor. I know we've had this discussion but it's been many years. If no one else remembers, I'll look up some of this tomorrow. Too tired tonight.

    At any rate, once rigor is fully set, it stays that way for ABOUT 12 hours, again with conditions affecting the timing, and then reverses the same way it started, from the head down. I noticed today when looking at the autopsy for another issue that Dr. Meyers said the head, arms, and torso were losing rigor, with the numbers 1 and 2 used to signify how much, at the time of the autopsy.

    Anyway, this confusion is why I can't put my money on a specific TOD. Neither could Dr. Meyers, apparently.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
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    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    IIRC, the info about Burke saying he couldn't remember is in ST's book.

    Thanks.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texan View Post
    If the Ramseys got home around 9:30 and the time of death was between midnight and 1 AM (based on rigor mortis) then either the pineapple moved slower than usual through her system or JBR and BR didn't share the pineapple shortly after arriving home. The math doesn't fit. It's a puzzle isn't it?
    It fits. Coroner estimates the pineapple would take about 2 hours to reach the small intestine (where it was found). If she ate it around 10ish, and died between midnight and 1 am, the timeline fits perfectly. The Ramsey's say the arrived home AROUND 9:30 or so. To me, the pineapple was exactly where it was supposed to be. Obviously she didn't eat it as soon as she walked in the door. But she had it within the timeframe to be in the small intestine when she was killed.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  10. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    It fits. Coroner estimates the pineapple would take about 2 hours to reach the small intestine (where it was found). If she ate it around 10ish, and died between midnight and 1 am, the timeline fits perfectly. The Ramsey's say the arrived home AROUND 9:30 or so. To me, the pineapple was exactly where it was supposed to be. Obviously she didn't eat it as soon as she walked in the door. But she had it within the timeframe to be in the small intestine when she was killed.
    DeeDee, do you have a source for the coroner--I'm assuming you mean Dr. Meyers--saying it took the pineapple 2 hours to digest? I either missed that or have just forgotten. (Probably forgotten, sadly enough.)

    The reason I ask is because if Dr. Meyers said this, why couldn't he come up with a TOD? Not to mention, the long discussion of 12 years trying to determine this is rather moot if Dr. Meyers already made this statement....

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    DeeDee, do you have a source for the coroner--I'm assuming you mean Dr. Meyers--saying it took the pineapple 2 hours to digest? I either missed that or have just forgotten. (Probably forgotten, sadly enough.)

    The reason I ask is because if Dr. Meyers said this, why couldn't he come up with a TOD? Not to mention, the long discussion of 12 years trying to determine this is rather moot if Dr. Meyers already made this statement....
    Meyer's inability to put a TOD on his report may not have been accidental. He was sloppy in his methods. There were TWO other procedures he should have done at that very first encounter with the body at the R home as she lay under the Christmas tree. (shudder).
    He should have taken a liver stab- done with a special thermometer to take a core body temperature, done in the liver of a body "in situ" (where it lays). A body loses heat in a predictable way, dropping by degrees gradually till it reaches the ambient temperature in the surroundings. The core temperature gives a fairly accurate TOD this way. Meyer failed to do this.
    Also, an even more accurate method is to take a sample of the vitreous fluid of the eyeball. Potassium levels are altered by death. It is more accurate to measure that, because it is not affected by ambient temperature. Meyer also failed to do this. He spent 10 minutes with the body. He noted her clothing and the position of her body. That was pretty much it. He likely pronounced her dead and signed a death certificate. But he did nothing else.
    Meyer did not mention in his report how long the pineapple would take to reach her small intestine- he merely noted that it was found there. That is not unusual. Any medical doctor or ME would know this information.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  12. #60
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    I agree with you DeeDee. Dr. Meyers should have been ashamed of his ten minute examination of JonBenét's body. He was sloppy!

    Thank you for this valuable information DeeDee!

    I am enjoying all the excellent posts here!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.



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