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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Texan View Post
    Somehow I just can't imagine Patsy using her own paintbrush in covering up the sexual abuse. Almost all the time when a crime is staged it is done to point the finger of guilt away from the stager and using her own paintbrush doesn't do that. However; if someone else was staging while PR wrote the note... well he certainly might use PR's paintbrush and point toward's her guilt and maybe thought that if her handwriting were identified the combination would be good evidence against her. Of course there is the sticky problem of those sweater fibers entwined in the garrote. My poor head continues to be confused...
    Hey, Texan, good to see you back, as well.

    I don't pretend to know what the person who used that paintbrush on JonBenet was really thinking, but in the end, it was used.

    We do know time was an issue, so what else would have been used in a rush? How long do you take to look for something while murdering a child and staging the crime scene?

    Also the paintbrush was slender, so while it would present a violation to LE that would cover up previous abuse, the killer thought, at least for a while, it wasn't as violent as using something like a broom handle or similarly shaped item. (Gosh, this is always hard to write about.)

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  2. #122
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    RiverRat is offline FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Left is Patsy Ramsey)
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    Remember that Linda Arndt witnessed the autopsy...

    http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ram...9/916rams.html

    The autopsy of JonBenét Ramsey revealed the 6-year-old had suffered recent and past sexual abuse, according to an investigator who observed the examination.

    "What was seen was not a first-time injury," former Boulder police Detective Linda Arndt said in a television interview broadcast Wednesday.

    "I don't want to speak for the coroner, but not all of her injuries appeared to be recent," she said.

    Boulder County Coroner John Meyer has never said whether JonBenét was sexually assaulted, although some have interpreted his autopsy report to show the former Little Miss Colorado had been abused.

    Arndt told ABC's "Good Morning America" that the coroner found "trauma that would be consistent with injuries seen in sexual assault cases."
    "Don't play dumb with me, RR! You're no good at it." The Punisher

    "Although no one is anticipating a prompt resolution to this long and much-detoured case, perhaps - just perhaps - might we see one of those moments “when a chance arrow of history scores a perfect bullseye on a deserving target”? Steve Thomas 2009

    "Justice hasn't had a chance so far. Anyone who doesn't have this as their prime goal, we'll have a falling out with." Fleet White - Time Magazine

    "What happens is that evil comes in," Fleet says. "If you don't have truth, all you have are lies, then what comes in is evil. And evil just does its thing. In the Ramsey case, it just did its thing, and it's eaten up so many people."

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    KK..

    I think Patsy Ramsey had to take drastic action to completely damage the previous sexual abuse to JonBenét, which she must have known was there, and using a broken paintbrush shaft just may do the job, she thought! Note: She did choose one of her largest brushes and she knew where her box was. She had to move fast. I'm positive she thought the wooden splinters plus the metal part of the shaft being viciously thrust into JonBenét's vagina would completely eliminate the previous sexual abuse. YES! I feel Patsy Ramsey was capable of this horrific staging procedure!


    I also believe Patsy Ramsey was a bad tempered mother and cleaned her daughter aggressively as Steve Thomas suggested.
    I can definitely picture Patsy doing whatever it took to point away from herself and that her thinking process during that time included pointing the direction away from a FEMALE as well.

    IMO-
    RR
    "Don't play dumb with me, RR! You're no good at it." The Punisher

    "Although no one is anticipating a prompt resolution to this long and much-detoured case, perhaps - just perhaps - might we see one of those moments “when a chance arrow of history scores a perfect bullseye on a deserving target”? Steve Thomas 2009

    "Justice hasn't had a chance so far. Anyone who doesn't have this as their prime goal, we'll have a falling out with." Fleet White - Time Magazine

    "What happens is that evil comes in," Fleet says. "If you don't have truth, all you have are lies, then what comes in is evil. And evil just does its thing. In the Ramsey case, it just did its thing, and it's eaten up so many people."

  4. #124
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    I always felt that some of the more disgraceful aspects of this case were Mayer's refusal to state in the report that JB showed evidence of sexual abuse that was chronic as well as acute. The way he handled the first examination of the body in the home, not following procedures to determine the TOD (in a murder victim, an unparalleled omission) was also a disgrace, and the use of unsterile clippers on her nails was also a disgrace.
    Det. Arndt's "amnesia" of that day, (the 26th) which she apparently developed when she planned to sue the BPD and write a book (hasn't been written as of this time) is also disgraceful.
    I know her superiors didn't give her adequate help and back-up that day. I know Officer French blew it completely when he allowed unauthorized people to wander all over the crime scene and he also couldn't figure out how to open the WC door, forever eliminating the preservation of the crime scene.
    BUT Arndt had a gun. There were lots of people around, true. But she could have put them all in one room and kept them there until help arrived. Instead, she TELLS JR to "look around" and what happened was an irreversible mistake and turning point in the ability of the police to solve the crime. She claims she was a scapegoat for the BPD's incompetence. I say she was pretty incompetent herself.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    I always felt that some of the more disgraceful aspects of this case were Mayer's refusal to state in the report that JB showed evidence of sexual abuse that was chronic as well as acute. The way he handled the first examination of the body in the home, not following procedures to determine the TOD (in a murder victim, an unparalleled omission) was also a disgrace, and the use of unsterile clippers on her nails was also a disgrace.
    Det. Arndt's "amnesia" of that day, (the 26th) which she apparently developed when she planned to sue the BPD and write a book (hasn't been written as of this time) is also disgraceful.
    I know her superiors didn't give her adequate help and back-up that day. I know Officer French blew it completely when he allowed unauthorized people to wander all over the crime scene and he also couldn't figure out how to open the WC door, forever eliminating the preservation of the crime scene.
    BUT Arndt had a gun. There were lots of people around, true. But she could have put them all in one room and kept them there until help arrived. Instead, she TELLS JR to "look around" and what happened was an irreversible mistake and turning point in the ability of the police to solve the crime. She claims she was a scapegoat for the BPD's incompetence. I say she was pretty incompetent herself.
    I agree with everything you're saying here DeeDee! Unbelievable! It was unfortunate for Linda Arndt it was Christmas time with just a skeleton staff at the Police Station. For sure she needed more backup!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    I agree with everything you're saying here DeeDee! Unbelievable! It was unfortunate for Linda Arndt it was Christmas time with just a skeleton staff at the Police Station. For sure she needed more backup!
    All true. But the bottom line is that, though she was alone, she had the ability to control the crime scene and she failed to do so. She also moved the body herself, and not only failed to stop an afghan from being put over the body, she herself threw a sweatshirt over her. She violated many protocols for preserving the crime scene. While she was not a homicide expert (she was a rape victims specialist) she got the same training in how to treat a homicide crime scene as every other LE.
    As soon as JR came up from the basement carrying the stiffened body of JB, the crime scene was irrevocably altered. But there were still things she could have done better. For one, she could have had the body moved to a separate room with a door that could be shut and stood guard at that door until help arrived. With the body already moved once, and the chance for LE to see the corpse of a murder victim in situ destroyed, she could still have prevented further contamination, and with poor JB shielded from view, covering the body was not needed. AND it would have prevented Patsy from throwing herself on top of her daughter's body, and eliminated one of Patsy's (and her lawyer's) excuses for why her fibers were on the garrote.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    All true. But the bottom line is that, though she was alone, she had the ability to control the crime scene and she failed to do so. She also moved the body herself, and not only failed to stop an afghan from being put over the body, she herself threw a sweatshirt over her. She violated many protocols for preserving the crime scene. While she was not a homicide expert (she was a rape victims specialist) she got the same training in how to treat a homicide crime scene as every other LE.
    As soon as JR came up from the basement carrying the stiffened body of JB, the crime scene was irrevocably altered. But there were still things she could have done better. For one, she could have had the body moved to a separate room with a door that could be shut and stood guard at that door until help arrived. With the body already moved once, and the chance for LE to see the corpse of a murder victim in situ destroyed, she could still have prevented further contamination, and with poor JB shielded from view, covering the body was not needed. AND it would have prevented Patsy from throwing herself on top of her daughter's body, and eliminated one of Patsy's (and her lawyer's) excuses for why her fibers were on the garrote.
    I think Patsy planned to fall on JonBenét's body, DeeDee, because this would account for her DNA being present. I also feel Patsy gave herself away by inviting the contamination party. All part of her plan.

    Yes, I agree with all you're saying about Linda Arndt She really screwed up good and proper. John Ramsey should never have lifted JonBenét up either,
    he should have brought the detective downstairs.

    Forgive me for not using initials DeeDee I'm too used to using their names after all these years.. If they're going to come after me for this, they'll be suing the whole network. the names are all out there on Google. I'll just let them know I'm a Senior Senior! I have a migraine trying to sort out all the initials.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Good to see you here, rashomon. It's good to have a discussion with so many who know this case so well.

    As to jabbing the paintbrush causing the eroded tissue, I don't think so. Not unless it was used on her before that night. Can "erosion" of tissue form within minutes of death? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the term, as medical lingo gets tricky, I know.
    It's been quite while since I was discussing this elsewhere, but from what I recall, erosion is not necessariy the result of a chronic process.

    From a website:
    Erosion
    Erosion is caused by loss of the surface of a skin lesion; it is a shallow moist or crusted lesion. http://dermnetnz.org/glossary.html
    What further complicates things is that in the autospy report, Dr. Meyer uses the terms abrasion and erosion when referring to the acute genital wound.

    Compare these parts of the autopsy report:
    "The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen."

    Later, on page 9:
    "the smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contain epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion."
    KK: For example, what are the odds that JonBenet had such vaginal injury that was clearly, biologically determined to be at least days old,
    Does it say in any source accesible to us to us where exactly this older vaginal injury was? Dr. Meyer mentions the chronic vaginal inflammation but one would not call this an "injury", I think.
    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat View Post
    Remember that Linda Arndt witnessed the autopsy...
    http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ram...9/916rams.html

    "What was seen was not a first-time injury," former Boulder police Detective Linda Arndt said in a television interview broadcast Wednesday.

    "I don't want to speak for the coroner, but not all of her injuries appeared to be recent," she said.
    So if there was also a chronic injury (and if Arndt did not mean the chronic vaginal inflammation), then this injury was not mentioned in the autopsy report, at least not in the pages we have access to.
    KK: ... but simply a coincidence in relation to the vaginal injuries inflicted at the time she was attacked and murdered?
    The autopsy evidence of chronic vaginal injury inflicted over a prolonged timeline is so inarguable that even Team Ramsey quit denying that autopsy evidence and began making excuses--like "it was the bubble bath" or "she did it to herself."
    Do you mean the chronic vaginal inflammation?
    KK: How many "coincidences" can people swallow in this case before they start to realize the mountain of evidence against the Ramseys is not some figment of Ramsey-haters' imaginations?
    The mountain of evidence implicates the Ramseys as being involved in the JonBenet's violent death, but can we say with certainty that this was a case of chronic sexual abuse? Is the evidence strong enough to rule out Steve Thomas's theory?

    Over the years, like most of us, I have been thinking of all possible scenarios in my 'time lines'; if it was a case of sexual abuse, maybe on that night Patsy surprised John molesting JonBenet and directed her rage against her daughter?
    Since the evidence points to Patsy as the main stager of the scene, I lean toward a scenario where she was also involved, on that fatal night, in the sequence of events resulting in JonBenet's violent death.
    Last edited by rashomon; September 18, 2010, 10:18 am at Sat Sep 18 10:18:31 UTC 2010.

  9. #129

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    Rashomon, I usually look at the many sources of expert opinion to decide what I believe about the chronic vaginal inflammation, and IMO, it was an injury caused by repeated sexual abuse.

    Dr. Wecht wrote very specifically from the autopsy report what his opinion is about the evidence. He concludes without hesitation that there was prior sexual abuse. He also spoke to this on a call-in radio interview I found online a couple of years or so ago: same opinion. (It's discussed around here somewhere on a thread.)

    Meyers was a puppet of Alex Hunter in this case, IMO. Not arriving at the crime scene as the coroner until after 8 pm was strange, but the excuse often was made he was awaiting a search warrant. I'm not sure why, since a dead child was lying in plain view, brought up in front of a BPD officer by JR himself. Whatever, that's what happened and then the autopsy wasn't performed until the next morning, further confusing TOD. We've heard rumors through the years that Meyers deliberately left parts of his examination of the body out of the final autopsy, as well. I can believe that, but it is only rumor, so....

    So I also look to the "Bonita Papers" as a source, since it actually has the most detailed report of what the experts consulted by the BPD and Meyers actually concluded about the sexual injuries to the child. While "Bonita" comes to us through a trail of anonymous characters, in the end, it's pretty obvious she had access to the official files when writing her summaries. It might not hold up in a court of law, but it's as good a reading of those actual files as the public is likely to ever get, with the BPD and BDA shutting down access to anyone outside Team Ramsey. But that's another bone to pick...and I've picked it many times.

    At any rate, the only thing that makes sense to me, looking at the evidence and sources we have, is that JonBenet was being molested prior to Dec. 25th and that was the catalyst for her murder, whether it began with an accident or was premeditated from the first blow. Who was committing the sexual abuse is open for argument, obviously. Even if it was from a barbaric douching regiment, punishment for bed-wetting, or straight out lascivious behavior, it was sexual--involving the sexual organs--and it was abuse, IMO.

    But Patsy is always at the heart of the evidence, no matter how you interpret what happened: her refusal to speak with LE for four months, lawyering up and making deals for evidence results instead, yet agreeing to be interviewed by the media the day after the funeral; her clothing fibers tied into the garrote knots; her paintbrush; her handwriting on her pad with her pen; her linguistics; her plethora of lies to LE; her plethora of lies to the public; her history of personal style and character; her words to her friend about JonBenet being too friendly and flirting; her calls to Dr. Beuf; her astonishingly choosey memory about the habits and activities of her own murdered child; her repeated inability to pass a lie detector test without multiple tries with multiple self-sponsored polygraphers, even years after the murder; etc.

    Still, I believe John Ramsey knew what happened as well when he was interviewed by LE; he lawyered up immediately and obstructed the investigation at every turn, blaming the BPD instead of helping them; he hated Steve Thomas far worse than he ever hated "the intruder"; he lied to LE in his interviews--his "story" about breaking into the basement is not even physically possible, not to mention absolutely absurd--and to the public, IMO; he "found" the body and contaminated the crime scene, after leading Fleet White around by the nose in the basement, IMO, hoping White would open that damn door and when he didn't, doing it himself; he can be heard on the 911 tape speaking harshly to someone in the background, IMO; he has done anything BUT look for the killer in 14 years; he even went so far as to feel sorry for the man who made disgusting claims about molesting JR's murdered daughter; his fibers were found on the genitals of the body, according to LE in JR's Atlanta interview; etc.

    Now look at Burke's story: he hid in his bed while he "heard" his mother running around in a disturbing state, pretending to be asleep when his parent(s) came into his room (we don't know which, because that story kept changing, too); he didn't ask questions when told to get up and dress to go to the Whites instead of going on the planned trip to Charlevoix; his primary concern that morning was he wasn't going to Charlevoix after all; according to his parents (NE interview) he never questioned them about JonBenet's death and they never brought it up with him; his voice may be the higher pitched, childlike voice on the 911 call heard in the background, though the Ramseys' story was first that he was asleep at that time, then later changed to he was awake but they didn't know it until his grand jury testimony (NE interview); etc.

    So that's three people who were in the house the night JB was murdered, not one of whom has an alibi--by their own admission--and not one whose story makes sense, as they kept changing them over time. The truth does not change.

    Darnay Hoffman was right about one thing: DA Hunter had no will to prosecute this case. I now believe he willfully aided the Ramseys in covering up the truth in this murder. Whether or not a decent DA, committed to justice for the victim and to doing his or her duty to the People of Boulder, could have convinced a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that any or all of this evidence led to one or more Ramseys, we'll never know. But it proves to me--and I'm not on a jury and have no sway over any outcome at trial or sentencing, so anyone making an argument I shouldn't have an opinion is meeting a deaf ear here--that the three people in that house lied repeatedly about the events of that night and morning, about the evidence, obstructed the investigation, and were one or more involved in the events and/or crimes that led to the death of JonBenet Ramsey.

    I believe there was some deep, moral failure in that family and it spun so out of control, JonBenet became the lightening rod for it. Greed, arrogance, pride, lust, and an expectation of privilege and success somehow combined to set forth a sequence of events that brought them all crashing down on JonBenet's poor body.

    God rest her soul, she did not deserve her fate, no matter how much John Ramsey thinks she was a "handful." What a bastid to speak of his murdered daughter that way on national TV. She was a child, and her behavior was what THEY taught her to be--their sins incarnate.
    Last edited by koldkase; September 18, 2010, 10:40 pm at Sat Sep 18 22:40:57 UTC 2010.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  10. #130
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    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Rashomon, I usually look at the many sources of expert opinion to decide what I believe about the chronic vaginal inflammation, and IMO, it was an injury caused by repeated sexual abuse.

    Dr. Wecht wrote very specifically from the autopsy report what his opinion is about the evidence. He concludes without hesitation that there was prior sexual abuse. He also spoke to this on a call-in radio interview I found online a couple of years or so ago: same opinion. (It's discussed around here somewhere on a thread.)

    Meyers was a puppet of Alex Hunter in this case, IMO. Not arriving at the crime scene as the coroner until after 8 pm was strange, but the excuse often was made he was awaiting a search warrant. I'm not sure why, since a dead child was lying in plain view, brought up in front of a BPD officer by JR himself. Whatever, that's what happened and then the autopsy wasn't performed until the next morning, further confusing TOD. We've heard rumors through the years that Meyers deliberately left parts of his examination of the body out of the final autopsy, as well. I can believe that, but it is only rumor, so....

    So I also look to the "Bonita Papers" as a source, since it actually has the most detailed report of what the experts consulted by the BPD and Meyers actually concluded about the sexual injuries to the child. While "Bonita" comes to us through a trail of anonymous characters, in the end, it's pretty obvious she had access to the official files when writing her summaries. It might not hold up in a court of law, but it's as good a reading of those actual files as the public is likely to ever get, with the BPD and BDA shutting down access to anyone outside Team Ramsey. But that's another bone to pick...and I've picked it many times.

    At any rate, the only thing that makes sense to me, looking at the evidence and sources we have, is that JonBenet was being molested prior to Dec. 25th and that was the catalyst for her murder, whether it began with an accident or was premeditated from the first blow. Who was committing the sexual abuse is open for argument, obviously. Even if it was from a barbaric douching regiment, punishment for bed-wetting, or straight out lascivious behavior, it was sexual--involving the sexual organs--and it was abuse, IMO.

    But Patsy is always at the heart of the evidence, no matter how you interpret what happened: her refusal to speak with LE for four months, lawyering up and making deals for evidence results instead, yet agreeing to be interviewed by the media the day after the funeral; her clothing fibers tied into the garrote knots; her paintbrush; her handwriting on her pad with her pen; her linguistics; her plethora of lies to LE; her plethora of lies to the public; her history of personal style and character; her words to her friend about JonBenet being too friendly and flirting; her calls to Dr. Beuf; her astonishingly choosey memory about the habits and activities of her own murdered child; her repeated inability to pass a lie detector test without multiple tries with multiple self-sponsored administers, even years after the murder; etc.
    Still, I believe John Ramsey knew what happened as well when he was interviewed by LE; he lawyered up immediately and obstructed the investigation at every turn, blaming the BPD instead of helping them; he hated Steve Thomas far worse than he ever hated "the intruder"; he lied to LE in his interviews--his "story" about breaking into the basement is not even physically possible, not to mention absolutely absurd--and to the public, IMO; he "found" the body and contaminated the crime scene, after leading Fleet White around by the nose in the basement, IMO, hoping White would open that damn door and when he didn't, doing it himself; he can be heard on the 911 tape speaking harshly to someone in the background, IMO; he has done anything BUT look for the killer in 14 years; he even went so far as to feel sorry for the man who made disgusting claims about molesting JR's murdered daughter; his fibers were found on the genitals of the body, according to LE in JR's Atlanta interview; etc.

    Now look at Burke's story: he hid in his bed while he "heard" his mother running around in a disturbing state, pretending to be asleep when his parent(s) came into his room (we don't know which, because that story kept changing, too); he didn't ask questions when told to get up and dress to go to the Whites instead of going on the planned trip to Charlevoix; his primary concern that morning was he wasn't going to Charlevoix after all; according to his parents (NE interview) he never questioned them about JonBenet's death and they never brought it up with him; his voice may be the higher pitched, childlike voice on the 911 call heard in the background, though the Ramseys' story was first that he was asleep at that time, then later changed to he was awake but they didn't know it until his grand jury testimony (NE interview); etc.

    So that's three people who were in the house the night JB was murdered, not one of whom has an alibi--by their own admission--and not one whose story makes sense, as they kept changing them over time. The truth does not change.

    Darnay Hoffman was right about one thing: DA Hunter had no will to prosecute this case. I now believe he willfully aided the Ramseys in covering up the truth in this murder. Whether or not a decent DA, committed to justice for the victim and to doing his or her duty to the People of Boulder, could have convinced a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that any or all of this evidence led to one or more Ramseys, we'll never know. But it proves to me--and I'm not on a jury and have no sway over any outcome at trial or sentencing, so anyone making an argument I shouldn't have an opinion is meeting a deaf ear here--that the three people in that house lied repeatedly about the events of that night and morning, about the evidence, obstructed the investigation, and were one or all involved in the events and/or crimes that led to the death of JonBenet Ramsey.

    I believe there was some deep, moral failure in that family and it spun so out of control, JonBenet became the lightening rod for it. Greed, arrogance, pride, lust, and an expectation of privilege and success somehow combined to set forth a sequence of events that brought them all crashing down on JonBenet's poor body.

    God rest her soul, she did not deserve her fate, no matter how much John Ramsey thinks she was a "handful." What a bastid to speak of his murdered daughter that way on national TV. She was a child, and her behavior was what THEY taught her to be--their sins incarnate.

    Perfect KK. For me it is all pretty simple when I boil it down. In addition to all the evidenxe KK just posted about Patsy I'll add this.
    Patsy wore the same outfit to a TV interview the day after ST questioned her. Even my pea sized brain knows, an innocent person would not do this. It would not even be in their mind at the time.

  12. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    Perfect KK. For me it is all pretty simple when I boil it down. In addition to all the evidenxe KK just posted about Patsy I'll add this.
    Patsy wore the same outfit to a TV interview the day after ST questioned her. Even my pea sized brain knows, an innocent person would not do this. It would not even be in their mind at the time.
    Good to see you, Karen.

    Yes, that Patsy was always staging scenes, wasn't she? Always thinking how to cover the truth....

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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