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  1. #133

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    I've started thinking about whether Patsy might have been more mentally ill than we have supposed. This might have been something that was only known to John, Burke and JonBenet.

    My mother was schizophrenic and to this day her sister doesn't know this. If I told her, she'd tell me I'm crazy. During her many hallucinatory rampages my mother talked to imaginary people--when we were lucky. When we were unlucky, she'd rant at us and her preoccupations were of a sexual and/or violent nature. Even the dog was a sinner because he didn't wear pants, you see, so he was flaunting his junk in her face. Nobody outside of the people in our house knew anything about it. (Well, maybe the neighbors on one side were aware.) My mother was able to hold it together, more or less, in the outside world. And it was a big, big secret.

    Is there any indication that Patsy was schizophrenic? Not much that I know of, but there is a strong co-occurrence of panic attacks and schizophrenia.

    So it occurs to me that John might have been familiar with some fairly bizarre behavior on Patsy's part. He may have known immediately that she wrote the note without realizing the implications.

  2. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    I've started thinking about whether Patsy might have been more mentally ill than we have supposed. This might have been something that was only known to John, Burke and JonBenet.

    My mother was schizophrenic and to this day her sister doesn't know this. If I told her, she'd tell me I'm crazy. During her many hallucinatory rampages my mother talked to imaginary people--when we were lucky. When we were unlucky, she'd rant at us and her preoccupations were of a sexual and/or violent nature. Even the dog was a sinner because he didn't wear pants, you see, so he was flaunting his junk in her face. Nobody outside of the people in our house knew anything about it. (Well, maybe the neighbors on one side were aware.) My mother was able to hold it together, more or less, in the outside world. And it was a big, big secret.

    Is there any indication that Patsy was schizophrenic? Not much that I know of, but there is a strong co-occurrence of panic attacks and schizophrenia.

    So it occurs to me that John might have been familiar with some fairly bizarre behavior on Patsy's part. He may have known immediately that she wrote the note without realizing the implications.
    Oh, Fr brown, I am so sorry you went through this. It must have been terrifying.

    This is what I don't understand about IDIs who think that no way the Ramseys could have done this or that; especially when they talk about them as if they lived with them or in their heads. NOBODY knows what goes on behind closed doors except the people who are behind them.

    I was thinking the other day about John's LE interview in '98, when he was talking about Patsy's cancer and surgery and how that had affected their sex life--it obviously changed; he said it was difficult for her after that. She went through immediate hormonal changes, of course. He mentioned taking a fan to her hospital room because of her hot flashes after the surgery when they removed her reproductive organs, that kind of thing. I could really get a sense of how hard it had been on them all.

    Then when Patsy talked in her interview that June as well, about being so sick and taking her temp every 15 min's. or so, it sounded simply unbearable. I thought, she really went through hell.

    And I wondered how that had affected her coming out the other side.

    Her family and friends all painted her like a saint every time they spoke. Even those who became disparaging never said anything about her behavior or moods being extreme in an unpredictable way. I find it very hard to believe them; she said in her own book she was terrified and had moods and depression. Who wouldn't, particularly after what she went through?

    So if she had mental problems, as your mother did, her family kept them hidden. Who knows, maybe she kept them from her family herself. In either case, her cracking that night would be more plausible.

    There are so many sexual components in this case that were not natural, in that family's history--yeah, THERE it is, coming from John himself regarding his and Patsy's lack of intimacy during her cancer treatments and recovery. IOW, it was unavoidable, but it was not business as usual between spouses. Then there were JonBenet's vaginal injuries from some previous events; sadly, they may not be uncommon, considering the stats that one out of three females are sexually abused as children, but they're still not acceptable as "normal."

    It just gives me the creeps thinking about who was molesting JonBenet. I can't imagine this wasn't a serious part of what led to her death. So for what it's worth--not much--I believe this is all connected. If Patsy found herself in some mental state which led to the death of JonBenet, I think the sexual abuse was an intense motivation or catalyst. When I read Pam Archuleta's words that Patsy told her she was worried about JonBenet flirting too much and being too friendly, I knew then that Patsy knew very well JonBenet was being molested, and she put at least some of the blame on JonBenet. Well, that's my opinion.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  3. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Oh, Fr brown, I am so sorry you went through this. It must have been terrifying.

    This is what I don't understand about IDIs who think that no way the Ramseys could have done this or that; especially when they talk about them as if they lived with them or in their heads. NOBODY knows what goes on behind closed doors except the people who are behind them.

    I was thinking the other day about John's LE interview in '98, when he was talking about Patsy's cancer and surgery and how that had affected their sex life--it obviously changed; he said it was difficult for her after that. She went through immediate hormonal changes, of course. He mentioned taking a fan to her hospital room because of her hot flashes after the surgery when they removed her reproductive organs, that kind of thing. I could really get a sense of how hard it had been on them all.

    Then when Patsy talked in her interview that June as well, about being so sick and taking her temp every 15 min's. or so, it sounded simply unbearable. I thought, she really went through hell.

    And I wondered how that had affected her coming out the other side.

    Her family and friends all painted her like a saint every time they spoke. Even those who became disparaging never said anything about her behavior or moods being extreme in an unpredictable way. I find it very hard to believe them; she said in her own book she was terrified and had moods and depression. Who wouldn't, particularly after what she went through?

    So if she had mental problems, as your mother did, her family kept them hidden. Who knows, maybe she kept them from her family herself. In either case, her cracking that night would be more plausible.

    There are so many sexual components in this case that were not natural, in that family's history--yeah, THERE it is, coming from John himself regarding his and Patsy's lack of intimacy during her cancer treatments and recovery. IOW, it was unavoidable, but it was not business as usual between spouses. Then there were JonBenet's vaginal injuries from some previous events; sadly, they may not be uncommon, considering the stats that one out of three females are sexually abused as children, but they're still not acceptable as "normal."

    It just gives me the creeps thinking about who was molesting JonBenet. I can't imagine this wasn't a serious part of what led to her death. So for what it's worth--not much--I believe this is all connected. If Patsy found herself in some mental state which led to the death of JonBenet, I think the sexual abuse was an intense motivation or catalyst. When I read Pam Archuleta's words that Patsy told her she was worried about JonBenet flirting too much and being too friendly, I knew then that Patsy knew very well JonBenet was being molested, and she put at least some of the blame on JonBenet. Well, that's my opinion.
    It was a lot of things.

    I don't want to go too far down the road of rank speculation, but I'll just note that Melissa Huckaby, the Sunday school teacher, who molested and killed a young girl was schizophrenic and a Xanax addict.

    It's not impossible that Patsy had something like that going on. Thomas thought that Patsy was responsible for JonBenet's chronic vaginal injuries.

    Patsy seems to have been better adjusted than my mother, but then my mother never took Xanax.

  4. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    I've started thinking about whether Patsy might have been more mentally ill than we have supposed. This might have been something that was only known to John, Burke and JonBenet.

    My mother was schizophrenic and to this day her sister doesn't know this. If I told her, she'd tell me I'm crazy. During her many hallucinatory rampages my mother talked to imaginary people--when we were lucky. When we were unlucky, she'd rant at us and her preoccupations were of a sexual and/or violent nature. Even the dog was a sinner because he didn't wear pants, you see, so he was flaunting his junk in her face. Nobody outside of the people in our house knew anything about it. (Well, maybe the neighbors on one side were aware.) My mother was able to hold it together, more or less, in the outside world. And it was a big, big secret.

    Is there any indication that Patsy was schizophrenic? Not much that I know of, but there is a strong co-occurrence of panic attacks and schizophrenia.

    So it occurs to me that John might have been familiar with some fairly bizarre behavior on Patsy's part. He may have known immediately that she wrote the note without realizing the implications.
    So sorry to read this about your mother fb. ThIs had to be a very difficult time for you and your family.

    Patsy Ramsey being schizophrenic would fit this crime perfectly. I do remember looking at some paintings Patsy Ramsey painted, and I found most of them very depressing. Who knows, maybe the drugs she was taking for her cancer caused depression (?).
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  5. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    I've started thinking about whether Patsy might have been more mentally ill than we have supposed. This might have been something that was only known to John, Burke and JonBenet.

    My mother was schizophrenic and to this day her sister doesn't know this. If I told her, she'd tell me I'm crazy. During her many hallucinatory rampages my mother talked to imaginary people--when we were lucky. When we were unlucky, she'd rant at us and her preoccupations were of a sexual and/or violent nature. Even the dog was a sinner because he didn't wear pants, you see, so he was flaunting his junk in her face. Nobody outside of the people in our house knew anything about it. (Well, maybe the neighbors on one side were aware.) My mother was able to hold it together, more or less, in the outside world. And it was a big, big secret.
    I, too, am sorry you had to deal with this growing up. You're last line ("... it was a big, big secret") rings true for a lot of people and many on this forum. One of the things that really upsets me about the Ramsey case is the IDIs always try to paint the Ramseys as perfect and saintly, and that there could not possibly be any hint of mental illness, drug dependency or other stressors in the family. Even IF I believed the Ramseys were innocent, I could never believe in the white-washed, sinless Ramseys as projected by their supporters. Anyone, with even a small amount of psychological insight, can see the Ramsey family was dysfunctional at best and hid some very bad secrets at worst.

    Some of the long-time posters of this forum will remember me talking about a family member who was much like your mother. Her psychological diagnosis may have been different, but the horrible rants (and beatings) directed to her children were the same in that no one outside the family knew of them. To everyone else, this person could be sweet as pie, and she was known for her hard work and faithful church attendance. The explosions of anger always occured at home, behind closed doors where no one could see the demon. It became worse when the father went off to war, and there was no one to come home from work and protect the children.

    People who have not lived in this type of family do not understand how there can be such a divided reality: the one that is public, and the one that is private. The outsiders think they would surely catch a glimpse of such anger and terrible behavior, but the perpetrator (and the family) are very careful to make sure that never happens.

    I know of another person who used to pray for the phone to ring when her mother was in one of her lashing tirades. If it did, the mother's tone of voice immediately changed from one of screaming anger to a very gracious, "hello," and the ensuing phone call created a break in the trauma whereby the child might be able to escape outside. The person at the other end of the line NEVER KNEW what had been happening just before their call was answered, and would not have believed it if you told them. Just as with Patsy, the mother could not have her friends and neighbors see her when she was out of control.

    Patsy had a lot of stressors, the first of which was trying to keep up the illusion of perfection in herself and in her life. When cancer came, it spoiled the perfection until Patsy became convinced that God had selected her for a special miracle (as opposed to all the others He just let die of cancer). Patsy's surgeries and chemo caused great upset in her physical, emotional and mental equilibrium, and for her, an intake of anti-depressants and tranquilizers became necessary. There were other stressors as well.

    Xanax is a tranquilizer that is frequently given to people who experience panic attacks, such as the ones Patsy relates. Xanax can be a temporary relief from the terrors of these attacks if used within the context of psychological therapy and in conjunction with carefully controlled dosages of anti-depressants. Unfortunately, Xanax is not always used in this way, and because it is a benzodiazepene, it can become very addictive if used longer than a period of a few weeks. At that point, if a person is not weaned from the use of Xanax, they will start having periods of anxiousness and panic attacks that can only be calmed by either increased dosage or more frequent use of Xanax. This anxiousness can be expressed in the form of extreme anger, or rage, as the chemical receptors in the brain cry out for more Xanax. It is considered dangerous to combine alcohol with Xanax, or with any other neuro-depressive medicine for many reasons.

    All was not well at the Ramsey household on Christmas Day 1996. There were things going on in private that could not be told. There were family pressures, and relationships, and illness, and all the other stuff that can make life messy at times. Underneath it all was a thread; an unhealthy preoccupation with perfection and making a very young child the epitome of mature sexual beauty. JonBenet was Patsy's alter ego; Patsy as Miss America, Patsy as perfect.

    Something in all that perfection, in that perfect family, cracked, and JonBenet's death was the result. And whatever it was ... it became "a big, big secret" when the Ramseys decided to cover-up what really happened behind closed doors.

  6. #138
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    This certainly is a very believable account of what took place in Patsy Ramsey's life, Cherokee. I can agree with all you have stated above, and I do believe the drug Xanax could have taken its toll on Patsy Ramsey on Christmas night 26th December, 1996, ending in JonBenét's death.

    Yes! This is defnitely a very believable account.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  7. #139

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    We all have a little Jekyl and Hyde in us. This is what makes you sick when the IDI just can't believe the saintly Ramsey family could never be involved in something like this.

    With everything that had happened to Patsy (cancer, treatment, depression, drugs for depression), I've been wondering more lately about the following scenario. Let's say JR, BR or JAR had been the source of JBR's vag. injury. Let's say Patsy found out her daughter had been violated. In her mental state, would that have pushed her over the boundary; could it have caused her to sacrifice her daughter because her daughter was no longer pure, no longer the perfect little girl who was destined for Miss America? And would this be the reason that JR could not finger his wife? If you can believe PMPT, I always thought it very telling about the reported conversation Shapiro had with JR on the phone. In this supposed conversation, Shapiro tells John he thinks he's innocent but he suspects his wife. Supposedly, JR remained quiet and didn't speak.

  8. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    We all have a little Jekyl and Hyde in us. This is what makes you sick when the IDI just can't believe the saintly Ramsey family could never be involved in something like this.

    With everything that had happened to Patsy (cancer, treatment, depression, drugs for depression), I've been wondering more lately about the following scenario. Let's say JR, BR or JAR had been the source of JBR's vag. injury. Let's say Patsy found out her daughter had been violated. In her mental state, would that have pushed her over the boundary; could it have caused her to sacrifice her daughter because her daughter was no longer pure, no longer the perfect little girl who was destined for Miss America? And would this be the reason that JR could not finger his wife? If you can believe PMPT, I always thought it very telling about the reported conversation Shapiro had with JR on the phone. In this supposed conversation, Shapiro tells John he thinks he's innocent but he suspects his wife. Supposedly, JR remained quiet and didn't speak.
    I think Patsy Ramsey would have been pushed over the boundary long before Christmas of 1996 arrived, Learnin, if this had been the reason. Patsy was also a very organized type of person, I feel she would have sacrificed JonBenét at another time, not when she had to prepare to fly to Charlevoix. This was not a good time for something like this to take place.

    I can very easily understand why you could arrive at a plan like this with all Patsy had been through with her illness.

    I can't recall this supposed conversation you mention above between Shapiro and John Ramsey. I will need to check it out. Thank you for bringing it up.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  9. #141
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    Learnin,

    I think this may be the phone conversation you're talking about.

    http://www.acandyrose.com/07281999shapirotapes.htm


    Shapiro tells Mullins that he called John Ramsey the first night, on a Sunday night, eleven o'clock his (Ramseys) time on May 30th. Shapiro told John Ramsey he didn't think it was him regarding the murder and then Shapiro tells John who he is, tells him his name and John Ramsey admits that he knew who he was. Shapiro expected John Ramsey to hang up on him but he didn't. John Ramsey asked him (Jeff) what he thought of the woman who was attacked on Baseline. Shapiro called John Ramsey back again a week later and this time he left message with Patsy Ramsey and within 30 seconds Shapiro's phone rings and it's John Ramsey calling him back. This was around 7:30pm John's time. Shapiro said he was careful not to mentioned the word Globe so there would be no liability in his relations to the that.

    Shapiro says he told John he wanted to extend an offer and be his source in a way and let you know what's going on. Shapiro says he told John that no matter what he did to search for an intruder that it keeps coming back to Patsy and then there was just silence on the line and he changed the subject to keep the conversation going. (Parts here are bleeped out on some names being talked about regarding intruder theories) Shapiro mentions John Andrew Ramsey and asks John if his son still hates him (apparently regarding an incident between Shapiro and John Andrew) and Ramsey tells him no. Jeff said John Ramsey said he didn't see the nightgown when he first found JonBenet. Jeff said he told John Ramsey that one day he would like to write about John. John Ramsey told Shapiro the most important thing is to find out who killed JonBenet.

    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  10. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Learnin,

    I think this may be the phone conversation you're talking about.
    Yea, always found that interesting, Elle. You would have thought John, when he heard Jeff accuse his wife, would have cussed him good and slammed the phone down.



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