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  1. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Sorry, this just doesn't make sense to me. The BPD may have been shorthanded, but they had several detectives and police officers who were there and then left Arndt. I find that extremely odd. They had somewhere more important to be? Who leaves one detective at a scene with a group of civilians expecting a call from terrorists who have kidnapped a child? If they didn't believe the child was kidnapped but had fallen victim to someone within the home, even worse. Then she is unable to get backup when she saw she needed it? Like nobody in the BPD thought it might be important that she could get in touch quickly? Completely unbelievable to me.

    I"m not buying it.
    According to Thomas, once 10am came and no call had been received, the detectives were called back to headquarters for a strategy session.

    Why didn't the law-abiding friends of the Ramseys just do what they were told and stay in one place? Even with all these pillars of the community roaming around like a bunch of four-year-olds, everything might have been more or less OK from a forensic point of view if Arndt hadn't asked Ramsey to search the house. That gave him the opportunity to further contaminate the crime scene. It's hard to see how the bosses downtown could have anticipated Arndt giving that instruction.

    Again according to Thomas, Arndt paged Mason around noon to get more cops to the house, but he didn't answer her pages.

  2. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    According to Thomas, once 10am came and no call had been received, the detectives were called back to headquarters for a strategy session.

    Why didn't the law-abiding friends of the Ramseys just do what they were told and stay in one place? Even with all these pillars of the community roaming around like a bunch of four-year-olds, everything might have been more or less OK from a forensic point of view if Arndt hadn't asked Ramsey to search the house. That gave him the opportunity to further contaminate the crime scene. It's hard to see how the bosses downtown could have anticipated Arndt giving that instruction.

    Again according to Thomas, Arndt paged Mason around noon to get more cops to the house, but he didn't answer her pages.
    No, sorry, still not buying it. What if the kidnappers had called at 10:30? Or 11:30? I mean, when kidnappers have a child, you're not going to walk out when the call doesn't come on schedule like it's a business deal aborted.

    At least, that's how I see it.

    Even so, you've got a missing child. How did that change at 10 am? Arndt was alone in the house with a group of 8 or 9 adults who could have been, any one of them, in on this. How could the BPD possibly know what was going to happen with that note and a child missing? What excuse did they have to say, oh, we'll leave Det. Arndt at the house by herself; the call didn't come, so it's all fine now.

    Nope, can't see it. Something was not right in that police dept., IMO. Not just incompetence. Even cops who do traffic stops back each other up. It didn't take a law enforcement genius to know that there was some serious issue going on in that house.

    Then Arndt discovered she was so abandoned by her own department, she couldn't get anyone to even answer her calls for help. No, the BPD couldn't have predicted she would make such a blunder, but they could have predicted that something could go very wrong. To leave her there without even a means of calling for backup, at a kidnapping crime scene full of civilians?

    How could anyone in LE ever defend that? What if the kidnappers actually did show up? What if one of those civilians turned out to be involved and pulled a gun or panicked or something? How could the BPD predict that wouldn't happen when a child was missing and a ransom note was all they had to indicate what happened to her?

    Agent Walker already told the BPD they'd find a body. Red flag, anyone?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  3. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    No, sorry, still not buying it. What if the kidnappers had called at 10:30? Or 11:30? I mean, when kidnappers have a child, you're not going to walk out when the call doesn't come on schedule like it's a business deal aborted.

    At least, that's how I see it.

    Even so, you've got a missing child. How did that change at 10 am? Arndt was alone in the house with a group of 8 or 9 adults who could have been, any one of them, in on this. How could the BPD possibly know what was going to happen with that note and a child missing? What excuse did they have to say, oh, we'll leave Det. Arndt at the house by herself; the call didn't come, so it's all fine now.

    Nope, can't see it. Something was not right in that police dept., IMO. Not just incompetence. Even cops who do traffic stops back each other up. It didn't take a law enforcement genius to know that there was some serious issue going on in that house.

    Then Arndt discovered she was so abandoned by her own department, she couldn't get anyone to even answer her calls for help. No, the BPD couldn't have predicted she would make such a blunder, but they could have predicted that something could go very wrong. To leave her there without even a means of calling for backup, at a kidnapping crime scene full of civilians?

    How could anyone in LE ever defend that? What if the kidnappers actually did show up? What if one of those civilians turned out to be involved and pulled a gun or panicked or something? How could the BPD predict that wouldn't happen when a child was missing and a ransom note was all they had to indicate what happened to her?

    Agent Walker already told the BPD they'd find a body. Red flag, anyone?
    I don't know if I'm following you or not, kk. Surely, Thomas, Eller, Trujillo, etc. was not in on a coverup. French, according to Thomas, was suspicioning the parents from the git go. Any coverup, in the BPD, would have been coming from Koby, Mason, no?

    I think leaving Arndt by herself was a mistake but I think, by 10 a.m., the FBI agent, and the few BPD detectives on duty, knew this was not a kidnapping and that a body would be found outside the home. French, the first officer on the scene, after being there only a few minutes before Sgt. Reichenbach arrived, knew something was screwy as hell. when Reichenbach arrived, French met him at the door and said it looks ike a kidnapping but, "something is not right". I WOULD SURE LOVE TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT FRENCH OBSERVED THAT TOLD HIM THIS SCENE WAS A BUNCH OF BALONEY....

    Anyway, because of the screwy ransom note, and the behavior of the parents, I think LE ( with the prodding of the FBI agent) heavily suspicioned the parents were involved. Thus, a regrouping back at headquarters to go over the game plan, etc.

    But, I'm interested in who you think, in the BPD, would have given the order to abandon the crime scene to Arndt and the neighborhood?

  4. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    I don't know if I'm following you or not, kk. Surely, Thomas, Eller, Trujillo, etc. was not in on a coverup. French, according to Thomas, was suspicioning the parents from the git go. Any coverup, in the BPD, would have been coming from Koby, Mason, no?

    I think leaving Arndt by herself was a mistake but I think, by 10 a.m., the FBI agent, and the few BPD detectives on duty, knew this was not a kidnapping and that a body would be found outside the home. French, the first officer on the scene, after being there only a few minutes before Sgt. Reichenbach arrived, knew something was screwy as hell. when Reichenbach arrived, French met him at the door and said it looks ike a kidnapping but, "something is not right". I WOULD SURE LOVE TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT FRENCH OBSERVED THAT TOLD HIM THIS SCENE WAS A BUNCH OF BALONEY....

    Anyway, because of the screwy ransom note, and the behavior of the parents, I think LE ( with the prodding of the FBI agent) heavily suspicioned the parents were involved. Thus, a regrouping back at headquarters to go over the game plan, etc.

    But, I'm interested in who you think, in the BPD, would have given the order to abandon the crime scene to Arndt and the neighborhood?
    I don't think the lower ranked detectives and police officers would have been "in" on any cover up from the beginning, no. Later, maybe they suspected things. Linda Arndt did sue the BPD, claiming she was used as a scapegoat, so maybe she has some ideas. I believe the reason Thomas quit and wrote his book is because he clearly suspected Team Ramsey was running things from higher up. Thomas seemed to me to believe the case was being obstructed through Hunter as soon as he could get back from his vacation.

    As for who in the BPD might have been actually working to disable the investigation as early as 10 am? I have no specific guess. Who was Eller's boss? Who might have been powerful enough to quietly tell the FBI to step down when it clearly had jurisdiction?

    I don't know. Maybe it's too much of a conspiracy theory. But when you have such an egregious screw up at a crime scene involving a missing child and a ransom note written as a terrorist group after a company owned by a defense contractor like LM...and a DA who inhibited the investigation at every turn for 3 years, from preventing the collection of elementary evidence, to handing the lawyers of the prime suspects the evidence results, to leaking to tabloids, to refusing to call a grand jury until the governor of the state forced him to hire an outside prosecutor to do so, and more, it makes one wonder.

    One thing to consider: if the Ramseys made calls of their own for help in the early morning, the wheels could have been in motion for many hours before 911 was even called. But we'll never know who could have made that call. Ramsey "friend," the Colorado State Attorney General, maybe? Her husband called John several times shortly after the murder "to offer condolences," Thomas wrote. Could Lockheed, which to this day has various plants and operations in Colorado, have called in a few favors PDQ? Did Bynum have that kind of insider power as a lawyer for AG/LM, or did he already have Hadden working before dawn?

    Did it go higher up? Spade did one time imply the blocking of the collection of the phone records went all the way to the White House. He was very vague, of course. We never get sources for the big claims. And we did discuss that LM, being a defense contractor, owned AG so maybe that was the "excuse" used for that, if it were true--which we don't know. But SOMEBODY managed to alter and bury those phone records, didn't they?

    Anyhow...just speculation. I'm probably being silly. I didn't used to care much for conspiracy theories except in the movies until this case. I just can't explain all the amazing "luck" the Ramseys had any other way. I have never heard of anyone having a murder victim found in their home and the phone records were blocked from being collected with a subpoena IMMEDIATELY. Even with a confession the crime has to be investigated, as the DA has to still make the charges and back them up in court. So this is going to boggle my mind the rest of my life.

    Did I mention (about a thousand times) that LE and TEAM RAMSEY should have been ALL OVER THOSE RECORDS as a possible intruder paper trail? How many crimes have had phone records break the case? This is hardly ground-breaking investigative technique, is it? Team Ramsey should have gone straight for those records as a possible connection to the intruder, since Patsy's story about that lost cell phone left a VERY LOOSE END that could have led to "the killer." I mean, they were constantly begging for ANY CLUE, weren't they? Except that OBVIOUS ones: that ONE LINK could have been right there in those phone records, which SURELY they'd be THRILLED to help LE find that intruder by providing the records SINCE THE PHONE WAS LOST? They DID call and have the cell phone service cut off for that phone WHEN THEY LOST IT...right? So what did they have to hide?.... Pffft!
    Last edited by koldkase; October 17, 2010, 2:54 am at Sun Oct 17 2:54:04 UTC 2010.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  5. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    No, sorry, still not buying it. What if the kidnappers had called at 10:30? Or 11:30? I mean, when kidnappers have a child, you're not going to walk out when the call doesn't come on schedule like it's a business deal aborted.

    At least, that's how I see it.

    Even so, you've got a missing child. How did that change at 10 am? Arndt was alone in the house with a group of 8 or 9 adults who could have been, any one of them, in on this. How could the BPD possibly know what was going to happen with that note and a child missing? What excuse did they have to say, oh, we'll leave Det. Arndt at the house by herself; the call didn't come, so it's all fine now.

    Nope, can't see it. Something was not right in that police dept., IMO. Not just incompetence. Even cops who do traffic stops back each other up. It didn't take a law enforcement genius to know that there was some serious issue going on in that house.

    Then Arndt discovered she was so abandoned by her own department, she couldn't get anyone to even answer her calls for help. No, the BPD couldn't have predicted she would make such a blunder, but they could have predicted that something could go very wrong. To leave her there without even a means of calling for backup, at a kidnapping crime scene full of civilians?

    How could anyone in LE ever defend that? What if the kidnappers actually did show up? What if one of those civilians turned out to be involved and pulled a gun or panicked or something? How could the BPD predict that wouldn't happen when a child was missing and a ransom note was all they had to indicate what happened to her?

    Agent Walker already told the BPD they'd find a body. Red flag, anyone?
    What good does it do to be in the house when the phone call comes? They need to know where the phone call is coming from and go there.

    Kidnappers are not going to come back to the house. Did they leave a Day Planner there or something?

    I fail to follow your reasoning here.

  6. #54
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    The end results are the Ramseys got away with it, and you can all talk 'til the cows come home about the 911 call, the contamination party by the Ramsey friends, Burke's voice on the 911 call etc. etc. etc. We're all still sitting in the first square of the game called "WHODUNNIT" ...although we all feel we know the Ramseys were involved.

    Having said the above, I feel Patsy is already paying for her crime, so I'm slipping off my soapbox and thank y'all for still trying so hard to find out more about this tragic case.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  7. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I don't think the lower ranked detectives and police officers would have been "in" on any cover up from the beginning, no. Later, maybe they suspected things. Linda Arndt did sue the BPD, claiming she was used as a scapegoat, so maybe she has some ideas. I believe the reason Thomas quit and wrote his book is because he clearly suspected Team Ramsey was running things from higher up. Thomas seemed to me to believe the case was being obstructed through Hunter as soon as he could get back from his vacation.

    As for who in the BPD might have been actually working to disable the investigation as early as 10 am? I have no specific guess. Who was Eller's boss? Who might have been powerful enough to quietly tell the FBI to step down when it clearly had jurisdiction?

    I don't know. Maybe it's too much of a conspiracy theory. But when you have such an egregious screw up at a crime scene involving a missing child and a ransom note written as a terrorist group after a company owned by a defense contractor like LM...and a DA who inhibited the investigation at every turn for 3 years, from preventing the collection of elementary evidence, to handing the lawyers of the prime suspects the evidence results, to leaking to tabloids, to refusing to call a grand jury until the governor of the state forced him to hire an outside prosecutor to do so, and more, it makes one wonder.

    One thing to consider: if the Ramseys made calls of their own for help in the early morning, the wheels could have been in motion for many hours before 911 was even called. But we'll never know who could have made that call. Ramsey "friend," the Colorado State Attorney General, maybe? Her husband called John several times shortly after the murder "to offer condolences," Thomas wrote. Could Lockheed, which to this day has various plants and operations in Colorado, have called in a few favors PDQ? Did Bynum have that kind of insider power as a lawyer for AG/LM, or did he already have Hadden working before dawn?

    Did it go higher up? Spade did one time imply the blocking of the collection of the phone records went all the way to the White House. He was very vague, of course. We never get sources for the big claims. And we did discuss that LM, being a defense contractor, owned AG so maybe that was the "excuse" used for that, if it were true--which we don't know. But SOMEBODY managed to alter and bury those phone records, didn't they?

    Anyhow...just speculation. I'm probably being silly. I didn't used to care much for conspiracy theories except in the movies until this case. I just can't explain all the amazing "luck" the Ramseys had any other way. I have never heard of anyone having a murder victim found in their home and the phone records were blocked from being collected with a subpoena IMMEDIATELY. Even with a confession the crime has to be investigated, as the DA has to still make the charges and back them up in court. So this is going to boggle my mind the rest of my life.

    Did I mention (about a thousand times) that LE and TEAM RAMSEY should have been ALL OVER THOSE RECORDS as a possible intruder paper trail? How many crimes have had phone records break the case? This is hardly ground-breaking investigative technique, is it? Team Ramsey should have gone straight for those records as a possible connection to the intruder, since Patsy's story about that lost cell phone left a VERY LOOSE END that could have led to "the killer." I mean, they were constantly begging for ANY CLUE, weren't they? Except that OBVIOUS ones: that ONE LINK could have been right there in those phone records, which SURELY they'd be THRILLED to help LE find that intruder by providing the records SINCE THE PHONE WAS LOST? They DID call and have the cell phone service cut off for that phone WHEN THEY LOST IT...right? So what did they have to hide?.... Pffft!

    I'm not much in blaming every bad thing that happens on conspiracy theories, either, kk, but, like you, I believe conspiracy was involved in this cover up. The only question is how high up did it go.

    I tend to believe it wasn't any where in the BPD but we had Koby at the helm and he wasn't about to make too many waves...."can't we all get along here?" I believe the DA's office had the right person to push around in the BPD. I really believe Koby thought his detectives were on the right path but didn't want to cause too many waves.

    I tend to believe that, if the Rams were actually the ones who actually struck the blow, the explanation given their legal expert was embarassing accident, unfortunate sibling fight, etc. and the decision was made to not bring bad light upon this successful family who donates a lot of money to the political machine.

    Now, if it was business related, then, the possibility of a larger cover up becomes more possible.

  8. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    What good does it do to be in the house when the phone call comes? They need to know where the phone call is coming from and go there.

    Kidnappers are not going to come back to the house. Did they leave a Day Planner there or something?

    I fail to follow your reasoning here.
    Well, I've explained it as best as I can. That's all I can do. These are just my ponderings and opinions, thoughts based on what I have seen and read on this case, nothing more. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    The end results are the Ramseys got away with it, and you can all talk 'til the cows come home about the 911 call, the contamination party by the Ramsey friends, Burke's voice on the 911 call etc. etc. etc. We're all still sitting in the first square of the game called "WHODUNNIT" ...although we all feel we know the Ramseys were involved.

    Having said the above, I feel Patsy is already paying for her crime, so I'm slipping off my soapbox and thank y'all for still trying so hard to find out more about this tragic case.
    I guess all we're doing is trying to come to terms with the corruption at this point. I've long accepted that the killer of JonBenet, the molester, and those involved in the cover up, one and all, got that "VICTORY!"

    Whatever other forces might come to bear, it's certainly not in our hands. But I would point to the terrible fate of Alex Hunter and say to those who have worked to promote deceit and obstruction of justice for a murdered child, Beware.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    I'm not much in blaming every bad thing that happens on conspiracy theories, either, kk, but, like you, I believe conspiracy was involved in this cover up. The only question is how high up did it go.

    I tend to believe it wasn't any where in the BPD but we had Koby at the helm and he wasn't about to make too many waves...."can't we all get along here?" I believe the DA's office had the right person to push around in the BPD. I really believe Koby thought his detectives were on the right path but didn't want to cause too many waves.

    I tend to believe that, if the Rams were actually the ones who actually struck the blow, the explanation given their legal expert was embarassing accident, unfortunate sibling fight, etc. and the decision was made to not bring bad light upon this successful family who donates a lot of money to the political machine.

    Now, if it was business related, then, the possibility of a larger cover up becomes more possible.
    I still believe that the case files, the forensic evidence, and all that we haven't seen, tells the tale of what happened to JonBenet that night and probably who did what. We'll never see it, though. Remember the case of the Black Dahlia? The corruption in the police dept. then will forever blacken the truth in her murder. That's probably how this case will go, as well, IMO. Evidence will disappear, if it hasn't already. Decades later, the powers that be will still be hiding the killer's identity in order to keep their own secrets.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I still believe that the case files, the forensic evidence, and all that we haven't seen, tells the tale of what happened to JonBenet that night and probably who did what. We'll never see it, though. Remember the case of the Black Dahlia? The corruption in the police dept. then will forever blacken the truth in her murder. That's probably how this case will go, as well, IMO. Evidence will disappear, if it hasn't already. Decades later, the powers that be will still be hiding the killer's identity in order to keep their own secrets.
    I agree KK. It's not that we see a conspiracy eveywhere we look, it's just that the evidence and known facts in this case (JonBenet's) points to the very center of the case and those who occupy & occupied that space. It's not difficult to believe that there were those who didn't even realize the part they played in the cover up until it was too late. What seemed like an innocent request may not have been so innocent.
    No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -Heraclitus Fragments c. 500 BC

  12. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    This excellent analysis was done by a brilliant linguist who used to go by the hat of "Twilight" at Websleuths many years ago. I don't know if she still posts at WS now or not. She and I agreed about the linguistic composition of the Ransom Note publicly (when I still posted at WS) and discussed linguistic theory behind the scenes.
    Thanks. I'll check out her posts.

    I wonder if she says anything about "deviation of my instructions"? That strikes me as the oddest thing about the ransom note.



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