Broken paintbrush

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Karen, Apr 17, 2010.

  1. Karen

    Karen Member

    Has there ever been an exclusive thread on how Patsy might have managed to break the paintbrush? I have an idea but if there's a thread to read I'll do that first. Thanks!
     
  2. Little

    Little Member

    I'm not aware of any Karen, but I would be interested in your theory.

    Little
     
  3. Elle

    Elle Member

    No special threads, Karen, there are several ways the shaft of an art brush could be broken. I have painted for years and have many different sized brushes. The photo here looks like it may be a #14 or higher (?). I'm unsure! One way would be to put it in a corner of a desk drawer, and holding the drawer handle tight with one hand, close the drawer as tightly as you can manage and holding the shaft with your other hand, snap it down sharply. This should give it a clean break.

    Depending on the length and diamater of the brush, one could also hold the two ends of the brush with both hands clenched and break it over a sharp edge one finds on a kitchen counter.

    The left side in this photo almost looks like the shaft was cut on a slant with a sharp knife/fine saw (?).

    Wish we could find out more.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Karen

    Karen Member

    Thnx to all who replied just wanted to say I'm having a family problem today and will be looging off right now. Will post later.
     
  5. Karen

    Karen Member

    I have always had trouble trying to figure out how Patsy broke that paintbrush. I mean, that thing looks thick to me! I had the idea that maybe John did it since he was stronger but i'm still on the fence about where his involvement comes in. Anyway I was reading a book about a man who had only one arm and wanted to break a broom. Can't really do that with one hand. So he leaned it up at an angle against the wall and stomped on it with his foot real hard. The bristle part snapped off. The book doesn't say what happened to he other end but I would imagine it would at least splinter? This is the only way I could imagine Patsy breaking the paintbrush. But now the question remains, why break it in the first place? ( I wonder if greater minds than mine (Steve Thomas for instance) thought of this and checked the hallway wall or wherever for a fresh impact scratch or something of that nature? Seriously, this has been a big hang up for me.
     
  6. Elle

    Elle Member

    Hypothetically, the more one can create a puzzling scenario when someone has been killed, all the better to lead the police astray. I think Patsy Ramsey managed to do this. Why bother taking time to create a garrote? The victim here was just a little six year old girl not an adult. A straight piece of rope would have been simple enough, but to me this was an accidental death not a planned murder.

    I think it's possible John Ramsey didn't twig it was Patsy Ramsey herself who had caused the death
    of his young daughter until he went on his first search through the house early morning. I think Patsy was capable of putting JonBenét in the windowless room, and crafty enough to know John would have no reason to open the latched door. One of the policemen didn't!

    Patsy's ransom note was over dramatic it kept flowing like a river because Patsy Ramsey got carried away with herself as she did with every project she tackled. I also think the giveaway was calling friends to come over. It was essential they had other people around to contaminate the evidence.
     
  7. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    A while ago, I did experiments with some old paintbrushes - breaking them was fairly easy. I put the paintbrush on the floor, stepped on one end, took the free end with my hand, and as I lifted it up while holding the other end down by my foot, the brush cracked and broke.
    I believe this is what Patsy did when breaking the brush: holding one end down on the floor with one foot and then snapped the brush by lifting the other end up.
    For shards from the paintbrush were found on the carpet where Patsy's paint tote stood (which contained the bristle end of the broken brush).
    As to why the stager of the scene broke the painbrush at all: imo it was to make it look it more like a "brutal torturing/ killing tool with its jagged ends.
    So true, Elle. Nothing in this crime indicates pre-planning; it all speaks of panicked action after the fact to direct LE's attention away from the family's involvement in JonBenet's violent death.
    As to what degree John was involved - imo his shirt fibers found in the crotch area of the size 12 underwear point to him being involved to some extent in the staging (if not in more).
    At the time S. Thomas wrote his book, he did not know yet about those fibers; additional test done later on the clothing revelad this incriminating fiber evidence.
    Well put, Elle. Patsy got carried away - that's exactly how the RN reads.
    Also, they provided a buffer between the Ramseys and the police.
     
  8. Elle

    Elle Member


    Yes, rashomon, there are several ways to have broken those art brushes. The bigger the diameter of the brush, the harder it would be to break, because these brush shafts are heavily lacquered, and I agree the jagged edges were required to confirm the hand which held this torture tool was one sick pedophile and hopefully detract from the fact it could have been the "mother" Patsy Ramsey.
     
  9. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Elle,

    Also the calling of friends to come over and contaminate the scene is in direct contradiction to the ransom note's telling them "not to even tell a dog". Now why on earth would parents of a "kidnapped" child go against the demands of the kidnappers? And so glaringly? There is only one answer here. They wrote the note! The FBI were there early on but left. That tells us something too. OOOOHHHH (groan) how crystal clear it all seems now eh!
     
  10. heymom

    heymom Member

    What seems odd to me, is how one of JonBenet's parents could penetrate her with this paintbrush, when they couldn't take her body outside the house and leave it...

    It's awful to consider that either John or Patsy took the paintbrush handle and put it inside JonBenet, to cover up the previous sexual contact.
     
  11. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    We aren't 100% sure they did. The autopsy report does say that cellulose was found inside her vagina. But this could mean splinters carried in on a finger. I have to say that it is ominous that there is a missing piece to the paintbrush, and the most logical answer is that it WAS left inside her and this was not made public because this is something LE wants to keep secret because it is something that would be known only to the killer.
    Something made JB bleed from the vagina that night. Her own blood was found under fluoroscopic testing, having been wiped from her thighs and pubic area. There are a few possibilities as to what caused it.

    It could have been too-forceful douching by Patsy because JB may have soiled herself that night.
    It could have been a forceful sexual assault.
    It could have been an assault actually with the paintbrush (this is least likely to me).
    Or, as you said, it could have been an assault designed to cover up previous sexual abuse.
    As to how a parent could use a broken paintbrush handle to do this- well I suppose inserting a paintbrush (or other object) would be easier than inserting a finger in your dying/dead daughter.
     
  12. Elle

    Elle Member

    Because they had to have the contamination to throw the cops into a chaotic investigation ZM. They succeeded! The first thing Patsy Ramsey did was throw herself upon JonBenét's body when Det. Linda Arndt placed JonBenét's body close to the Christmas tree. Being a pro, Patsy knew what to do. Her DNA was then present. John Ramsey's DNA was already present on JonBenét's body. He found the body and carried her up. DNA from both the Ramsey parents was already present on their young daughter's dead body.

    I agree with you, they went against all the rules to suit themselves and they got away with it, and money talks!
     
  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    I think JonBenét Ramsey was dead when the brush shaft was inserted in her vagina, DeeDee, and I can only come to the conclusion this was definitely done to try and cover up the previous sexual intrusion by whomever (?). I do have trouble accepting John Ramsey was the culprit here, because of his previous history of having a mistress while he was married to his first wife, Lucinda. I see this CEO more interested in sex with full grown women, although I have read he did have a few younger women, but this is still far removed from sexually playing around with his six year old daughter. I have trouble accepting this.

    I can accept more readily her older brother Burke and his friends experimenting much quicker than I can accept it was John Ramsey, her father. JonBenét was in the habit of crawling into Burke's bed on many occasions when she wet her own, by Patsy herself.
     
  14. Karen

    Karen Member

    I always wondered why most of the opinions I've read about who did the molestation was that it was eithor JR or Burke or JAR. JB was around many other people who would have had access to her. IMO I don't think any family member did that to her, even playing doctor. However I DO think Patsy knew something wasn't right with JB in that area. Just MO for whatever it's worth. (And no I'm not going to name anybody who I think may have done it. I don't think that would be right now or even in the early days of this case without proof.)
     
  15. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    blood

    If the damage to JBR's vagina had happened after she died there would be no blood there and also no bruise on her labia. She may have been unconscious though - I really hope she was unconscious.
    As distasteful as it is, someone abused her that night/morning and the odds are it was someone in the family. No one likes to think of a loving mom or dad or even brother doing something like that but the fact is that it happens. The people that do that kind of abuse very often look like normal, every day people. It wasn't just part of the staging because there is evidence of prior abuse. (chronic inflammation)
    If it wasn't a family member then there was someone else at the Ramsey house that night - how did they get in, why were they there, why did they leave a RN in Patsy's handwriting (or handwriting that looks ridiculously like hers), why weren't their fingerprints on the bowl of pineapple or flashlight, why didn't they take her away immediately instead of spending time in the Ramsey home which was very dangerous for them?
    Of all the arguments on whether it was an intruder or not, the fact that JBR was still in the home is the main reason I have to believe it was an inside job. The natural instinct of someone breaking into a home and grabbing a child for any reason is to get out of there as quickly and quietly as possible.
     
  16. Elle

    Elle Member

    Is it possible the bleeding could have been caused at the White's party, Texan? Thank you for reminding me about his part. With your medical background I know you will know a lot more than many of us. I do think the abuse to her vagina was to cover up previous abuse not part of the staging. Would Burke Ramsey be young enough to know this and do this? I'm doubtful about this! (?). I could see Patsy Ramsey covering up for her son.

    With all the Ramseys had to do before leaving real early for their visit to Charlevoix wasn't this risky if it was John Ramsey Sr.? If it was him (?), he had access to JonBenét any time. Surely by this time Patsy Ramsey would know her young six year old was being molested through taking care of her young six year old daughter (?).

    I think Patsy Ramsey was up the whole night and wrote the note. Yes, it is one big puzzle, too much time was spent over everything, but I still think Patsy Ramsey is at the crux of it all, but you sure put up a good argument, Texan.
     
  17. Elle

    Elle Member

    Surely a mother would know if her six year old daughter was being tampered with, and if so, do something about it!(?). The culprit went to great lengths to cover up the original crime. What criminal has time to hang around tying knots and writing the War and Peace ransom note with people sleeping upstairs in a house who could waken up at any time for any reason?
     
  18. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Not necessarily. Some mothers do not know. And some who think it don't really want to know.
    I know as a mom myself, any mother would think "well I would KNOW if someone was abusing my daughter".
    But the fact is that some abusers are so good at keeping their cover that unless there is some physical issue with the child (like a sexually transmitted disease or bleeding or infection _ hello!) the mother doesn't know, especially of the child knows/loves/trusts the abuser. Kids keep secrets. Just look at what BR said when he was asked about "secrets". He refused to tell his secret because he said "then it wouldn't be a secret".
     
  19. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    well

    Unless JBR wore the huge panties to the Whites, the damage to her vagina happened after she came home because the blood drops are on those huge panties.

    She could have been wearing them under her pants while she was at the Whites but I think they would have slid down under her clothes and bunched up-it would be good if someone could do an experiment and see what would happen if a child tried to wear a pair of panties that size under their pants.
    The experiment Jayelles did by showing how huge those panties really were is awesome.
     
  20. Elle

    Elle Member

    Yes, that was an excellent experiment Jayelles did, Texan.

    There are so many ridiculous incidents attached to this case. I'm thinking it will discussed in many criminal classes all over for many years.I feel Patsy was thinking of the Foreign Faction when JonBenét was redressed in oversized panties.

    The whole Shebang was overdone from start to finish, like entering a Maze with nothing but confusion being presented at every turn.

    Yes, Patsy was a master of her craft "confusion." She succeeded and didn't die in jail.
     
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