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    Default John Ramsey BDA interview - June 23, 1998

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    1 _________________________________________________
    2
    3 IN THE MATTER OF:
    4
    5
    6 INTERVIEW WITH JOHN RAMSEY
    7
    8 _________________________________________________
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    11 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW
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    13 VOLUME 1 OF 4
    14 PAGES 1 - 246
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    19 JUNE 23RD, 1998
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    0002
    1 FOR JOHN RAMSEY'S INTERVIEW,
    2 THE FOLLOWING WERE PRESENT
    3
    4 LOU SMIT
    5 MIKE KANE
    6 BRYAN MORGAN
    7 DAVID WILLIAMS
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    0003
    1 LOU SMIT: Today's date is Tuesday the
    2 23rd of June 1998. The time is right at 9 o'clock.
    3 What I'd like to have done, and there's a lot of
    4 people that aren't on the camera, and for voice
    5 identification and everything, I'd like everyone
    6 to identify themselves and I'll start with myself
    7 and we'll just go clockwise. I'm Lou Smit. I'm an
    8 investigator for the Boulder County District
    9 Attorney's office. I've been working on this case
    10 since March of 1996 -- 1997, I'm Sorry. So John?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: John Ramsey.
    12 BRYAN MORGAN: I'm Bryan Morgan, and I'm
    13 John's Lawyer.
    14 DAVID WILLIAMS: David Williams, and I'm
    15 an investigator for Bryan Morgan.
    16 MIKE KANE: Michael Kane, and I'm Deputy
    17 District Attorney in Boulder County.
    18 LOU SMIT: Okay. First of all, as you all
    19 know, this is being audio and video recorded. And
    20 that's a -- I think a real good thing to do. The
    21 video is in black and white and we do have real
    22 good facilities for audio recording.
    23 I'd like to just start out and ask, first of all,
    24 I'm so used to calling you Mr. Ramsey. Is it okay
    25 to call you John?
    0004
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.
    2 LOU SMIT: John, at this particular time,
    3 do you have any medical problems at all that you
    4 know of?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Are you under, taking any
    7 medication?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Taking Prozac.
    9 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Twenty milligrams in the
    11 morning, ten milligrams at night.
    12 LOU SMIT: Okay. And who is the doctor?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, Dr. Sheevy, Catherine
    14 Sheevy, is who I saw in Boulder. Well I haven't
    15 seen her in a while. Steven Jaffee, Dr. Steven
    16 Jaffee in Atlanta, prescribed the Prozac for me.
    17 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: He's actually Burke's
    19 psychiatrist.
    20 LOU SMIT: When was the last time you took
    21 a pill?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: This morning.
    23 LOU SMIT: This morning. About what time?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably about 7:30.
    25 LOU SMIT: And what is the dosage of that?
    0005
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: 20 milligrams.
    2 LOU SMIT: And how do you actually feel,
    3 mentally, right now?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I woke up on Eastern
    5 Time, so I feel like I've been up for a while. But
    6 I'm fine.
    7 LOU SMIT: Do you have any problem with
    8 this interview continuing?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    10 LOU SMIT: Is there anything that may be
    11 influencing your thoughts or your ability to think
    12 clearly at this time?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    14 LOU SMIT: In the first letter I wrote to
    15 you, in passing, when we were first getting
    16 involved in this, I did tell you that you and your
    17 family would be treated with respect, and we'd do
    18 anything in our power to find the killer of your
    19 daughter and bring him or her to justice. Do you
    20 remember that letter?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I do.
    22 LOU SMIT: We still intend to do this. And
    23 we need your help. And we do need to work
    24 together.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes. Well, you folks have
    0006
    1 always treated us with respect. And I think it's
    2 important for you to know from our perspective on
    3 this. We've been looking forward to this when you
    4 called, and we've been anxious to have an open
    5 dialog with the people that are trying to solve
    6 this crime. And, from the beginning, we felt that
    7 the, rightly or wrongly, that the Boulder police
    8 were not of that frame of mind. That they were,
    9 frankly, out to lynch us and that dialog was never
    10 able to be established. So our intent is to just
    11 be open and ongoing, and there's no higher
    12 priority in our lives priority in our lives than
    13 to find out who did this. If we can help do that,
    14 we'll spend 24 hours a day, if we need to. So,
    15 that's how Patsy and I look at this. So, we're
    16 here to help.
    17 LOU SMIT: All right. What I'm going to do
    18 -- you sent a letter in April of 1998. And it
    19 looked like a personal letter from you sent to
    20 Bryan Morgan, I believe, and we got a copy. If you
    21 don't mind, what I'd like to do is read that into
    22 the record? Can I do that? Do you have any problem
    23 with that?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No problem.
    25 LOU SMIT: This is -- first of all, the
    0007
    1 letter that we have from Bryan Morgan is dated
    2 April 15th, 1998, and it's a hand-delivery letter,
    3 and it's addressed to Alex Hunter. And Bryan
    4 Morgan writes in his own handwriting,
    5 (Dear Alex, as you know, we proposed last week
    6 that the Ramsey's meet with Detective Smit with a
    7 Boulder police officer present. The Ramseys regret
    8 that this proposal was not accepted and won't --
    9 and want to renew their offer to meet with
    10 Detective Smit. I have been instructed to deliver
    11 this letter from John Ramsey to you so that you
    12 may know his feelings in his words.̃
    13 And it's signed John Ramsey. Mr. Ramsey, I don't
    14 know if I can read your writing very well, and I
    15 would like you to read it, if you will?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: (Dear Mr. Hunter, I'm writing
    17 this letter because it seems difficult at times to
    18 communicate through attorneys who are focused on
    19 protecting my rights as a citizen. I want to be
    20 very clear on our family's position. We have no
    21 trust or confidence in the Boulder police. They
    22 have tried, from moment they walked into our home
    23 on December 26th, 1996, to convince others that
    24 Patsy or I or Burke killed JonBenet. I will hold
    25 them accountable forever for one thing: not
    0008
    1 accepting help from people who offered it in the
    2 beginning and could have brought a wealth of
    3 experience to bear on the crime. We, myself and
    4 Patsy and Burke, John Andrew and Melinda will meet
    5 any time, anywhere, for as long as you want with
    6 investigators from your office.
    7 If the purpose of a grand jury is to be
    8 able to talk to us, that is not necessary. We want
    9 to find the killer of our daughter and sister and
    10 work with you 24 hours a day to find it.̃
    11 I can't refer to this thing as a person
    12 frankly.
    13 (If we are subpoenaed by a grand jury, we will
    14 testify regardless of any previous meeting with
    15 your investigators. I'm living my life for two
    16 purposes now: to find the killer of JonBenet and
    17 bring it to the maximum justice our society can
    18 impose. While there is a rage within me that says,
    19 give me a few minutes alone with this creature and
    20 there won't be a need for a trial, I would then
    21 have succumb to the behavior which the killer did.
    22 Secondly, my living children must not have to live
    23 under the legacy that our entertainment industry
    24 has given them based on false information and a
    25 frenzy created on our family's misery to achieve
    0009
    1 substantial profit.
    2 It's time rise above all this pettiness
    3 and politics and get down to the most difficult
    4 mission: finding JonBenet's killer. That's wall we
    5 care about. The police cannot do it. I hope it is
    6 not too late to investigate this crime properly at
    7 last.
    8 Finally, I am willing and able to put up
    9 a substantial reward, one million dollars, through
    10 the help of friends if this will help derive
    11 information. I know this would be used against us
    12 by the media dimwits. But I don't care. Please,
    13 let's all do what is right to get this worst of
    14 all killer in our midst. Sincerely, John Ramsey.̃
    15 LOU SMIT: Thank you, John. I would just
    16 like to ask you a couple things about that letter.
    17 First of all, where did you write this letter at?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I was in David Williams'
    19 kitchen.
    20 At his counter.
    21 LOU SMIT: And is that here in --
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Here in Denver. Yeah.
    23 LOU SMIT: And what prompted you to write
    24 that letter? I mean you hadn't written a letter
    25 before like that.
    0010
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: We just finally came to the
    2 end of our rope in terms of frustration with what
    3 we viewed as silliness. We, frankly, tried to
    4 communicate through -- actually it was Pat Burke,
    5 Patsy's attorney who was visiting with us and we
    6 said, look, this is ridiculous --
    7 BRYAN MORGAN: Excuse me. I really can't
    8 get into, and let John get into conversations that
    9 happened with the lawyers. That's a problem that I
    10 just have to protect. Some the privileges have
    11 waived for all purposes. I'm perfectly (INAUDIBLE)
    12 for this conversation to be put on the record if
    13 there's an understanding that this is not a
    14 waiver. But the attorney/client privilege in
    15 general. I understand, but I do have to watch out
    16 for this. If that's okay with Mr. Kane, and it's
    17 not a full-scale waiver, then go ahead and you may
    18 talk about that conversation.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. Well, we were, I guess
    20 very frustrated that we couldn't seem to get off
    21 the dime with a serious investigation with good
    22 communication. There seemed to be just a lot of
    23 frivolous motives floating around that were
    24 preventing a serious investigation from taking
    25 place. And we asked Pat to communicate with the
    0011
    1 district attorney's office, that we were here, we
    2 would meet with them right now if they wanted to.
    3 But let's get this thing figured out. And,
    4 frankly, in listening to Pat say what I wanted to
    5 say over the phone, I could see that there was a
    6 filtering going on, not intentionally, but a
    7 filtering of my emotions. And so I sat down and
    8 wrote the letter and I said to Brian, I said,
    9 (Here, you either deliver this or tear it up, but
    10 don't change it.̃ And he called me about a week
    11 later and said, (Well, I just delivered it.̃ And
    12 that's how the letter came about.
    13 LOU SMIT: Okay. I would like to ask you
    14 just a little bit. It seems to me like the letter
    15 indicates that this is a 100 percent commitment on
    16 your part?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    18 LOU SMIT: What limitations do you have on
    19 that? Are there any limitations that you're
    20 putting on this?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: None. We want -- as long as
    22 we are working with an objective investigation,
    23 there are no limitations.
    24
    25 LOU SMIT: So we can contact you at any time?
    0012
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely, as far as I'm
    2 concerned.
    3 LOU SMIT: Have you talked to Bryan
    4 about this? I'm mean this has always been a
    5 problem. What's been happening is that, we want to
    6 conduct an investigation. We go through the
    7 lawyers at the District Attorney's office. We're
    8 obligated to always go through an attorney if a
    9 person is represented by an attorney.
    10 We cannot even contact John or Patsy
    11 in person without going through attorneys. And by
    12 the time it gets from two of our attorneys to four
    13 of your attorneys, and a decision is made and
    14 comes back, a great deal of time is expended. And
    15 I'm not saying that it has to be that way. I'm
    16 just saying, is there a way that we can streamline
    17 this process. Because there's going to times,
    18 especially if we're working in the intruder
    19 theory, that we're going to want to just make a
    20 telephone call. I know, because of this and the
    21 focus of that's on this case, that's a very
    22 difficult thing to do. And I know that lawyers
    23 want to protect their client.
    24 A lot of times I may come up with a name or one of
    25 the investigators may come up with a name. We just
    0013
    1 want to say, (John, do you know who this is?̃
    2 (No.̃ I don't know what can be arranged. That's up
    3 to the lawyers and people to do. But, John, I
    4 don't know how you feel. But then --
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I --
    6 LOU SMIT: -- I'm not going to advise you
    7 on that. But I'm just letting you know.
    8 BRYAN MORGAN: Let me say this much. And I,
    9 I want to spare everybody a long speech. But, I
    10 take it that at least you, Detective Smit,
    11 understand why we truly do not believe that we
    12 have any confidence in the Boulder Police
    13 Department. When we have given leads to the
    14 Boulder Police Department, those leads have been
    15 turned around and used to poison the well against
    16 us. With the people that we have good faith said,
    17 (You at least should consider looking into . . .̃
    18 and I (INAUDIBLE) but I won't.
    19 So, what I would do, and John follows his
    20 own lead. It was John who wrote that letter; it
    21 was not with my prompting. And he did it because
    22 of the frustration he felt at not being able to
    23 communicate. The background of that was, we had
    24 made an offer to Commander Becker to sit and talk,
    25 and the offer was essentially rejected unless it
    0014
    1 could be this, that and the other. And that was
    2 not what John had in mind.
    3 I will put it this way. Let us see how long
    4 we go this week. Let us see and make our own
    5 judgment at the end of it (INAUDIBLE). What was
    6 happening and what sort of investigation is being
    7 run. And then I will talk with John, and John, as
    8 always, will do what he sees fit. We do not want
    9 to put impediments in the course of any sort of
    10 conversation of the type you described: (John, do
    11 you know this person? Can you tell us anything
    12 about this subject, this object?̃
    13 We don't want to put blockages there, but,
    14 because half of everything we talk about winds up
    15 being printed in the press and turned against us
    16 in half-truths. We have a long history of being
    17 very skeptical; not at you and not at the district
    18 attorney's office. Let's see if we can get over
    19 it. I say let's go through the next several days
    20 and we'll see where we are.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, you know, we would
    22 -- the last thing in our mind on December 26th,
    23 was that we would be considered suspects. It was
    24 hard for us to believe that we were considered
    25 suspects. We accepted that and there's been a
    0015
    1 countless number of instances where believe not
    2 only were we suspects, but we were hunted
    3 suspects. And these fellows, frankly, in my mind
    4 were there to protect us as citizens and protect
    5 our rights.
    6 I would love not to have attorneys and
    7 let's get on with this and figure out who did
    8 this. And I'm encouraged that the investigation
    9 that has started now, started with the meeting
    10 with Burke and Dan Schuler and Pete Hofstrom is
    11 the start of what should have happened 18 months
    12 ago. And so I'm very encouraged and look at this
    13 as a fresh start, I guess. It should have happened
    14 18 months ago.
    15 Frankly, if we're wrong, we owe a lot of
    16 people an apology. But our view is that the
    17 cruelty that was willfully imposed on us and our
    18 family by Boulder police was only exceeded by what
    19 the killer did to us. And that's our perspective.
    20 and so that's behind us, let's move forward and,
    21 you know, we've said it, we said it for 18 months
    22 that, you know, we'll be here 24 hours a day if we
    23 need, if that's helpful. So, I mean that's how I
    24 feel.
    25 LOU SMIT: Well, you know, it just seems
    0016
    1 what the public perception of it is: is that you
    2 offered to do this in the past, to come in and to
    3 talk. And then all of a sudden you don't talk. For
    4 instance, like that CNN interview, for instance
    5 where you said you'd be in --
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: And we came back to Boulder
    7 and it was extremely difficult. Patsy, as we came
    8 over that hill coming down the valley, Patsy broke
    9 down in tears. We almost turned around and went
    10 back to stay in Denver. But we were coming back to
    11 help with how, you know, what we could help with.
    12 And we sat down with Mike Bynum the next morning
    13 and he said, (Look, there's something you aught to
    14 know. Here's what the police are doing. And they
    15 refuse to release your daughter's body for burial
    16 until you came in for an interrogation.̃ And he
    17 was in tears.
    18 LOU SMIT: Now this was after June?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: This was after June. He said,
    20 (I took care of it.̃ He said, (We had a lot of
    21 shouting matches and it was taken care of. But you
    22 need to understand these people are not your
    23 friends.̃ So we kind of sat back and said, (whoa.̃
    24 And that set the or reset our perception against,
    25 I guess, of what was really going on. And so, then
    0017
    1 we offered -- I remember once offered -- we were
    2 in very bad shape. We were in shock, we were on
    3 medication. We went to bed at 6 o'clock at night.
    4 And we offered -- until we finally worked out
    5 we're okay. We're going to come in Wednesday
    6 morning when the police came back and said, (No,
    7 no, no. Six o'clock Friday night we want you to be
    8 here alone.̃ We're not even capable of holding a
    9 conversation that time of day. And it was, to us,
    10 very obvious what they're trying to do.
    11 And so this whole arena of trust just went
    12 from, frankly, total trust on the morning of the
    13 26th to zero trust by two weeks later. And it
    14 never has gotten any better. And so it's been very
    15 frustrating for us as we look at our daughter and
    16 the life of the precious child that was lost and
    17 we're dealing with all this pettiness. And then
    18 one detective said, (Well, you know, there's a lot
    19 of careers on the line here.̃ And my answer was,
    20 (Careers? I don't even care about careers. And
    21 that's the problem. Your motive is wrong.̃
    22 But, you know, we've been hurt as much as
    23 we can be hurt. Nobody can hurt us anymore. And
    24 we've been hurt. Let's sit down and figure out who
    25 the heck did this. But we never could seem to get
    0018
    1 to that point where there was an honest effort on
    2 both parties' parts.
    3 LOU SMIT: You know, gentlemen, I know this
    4 is going to be a tough question. I'm kind of
    5 winging it here. But some people even say that no
    6 matter what, a parent would come in. even if you
    7 were feeling bad. How do you answer that?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: We've made lot's of offers to
    9 come in. the day after the 27th they came over the
    10 Fernie's where we were staying, in horribly bad
    11 shape. I slept on the floor that night and then we
    12 did well to get up the next day.
    13 The police came in and we sat and talked with
    14 them. They said, (Well, you know, we really want
    15 you to come down to the station for an interview.̃
    16 We said, (Look, we will talk to you the following
    17 morning. But we can't leave this sanctuary, this
    18 home.̃ It was just beyond our mental capacity to
    19 get up, get dressed, go out into the media frenzy,
    20 which was starting to develop.
    21 And there's always been that offer on our part.
    22 And it was always rejected in the condition, in
    23 such a manner that we said, look, these people are
    24 up to no good as far as we're concerned.
    25 So, yeah, if could have called out the National
    0019
    1 Guard, I would have, if it had been in power. That
    2 was my first reaction that morning. Let's close
    3 the airport, let's put up roadblocks. What we got
    4 to do here? But I finally just lost total
    5 confidence in the Boulder Police. There's no
    6 sense. We stared our own investigation last summer
    7 because we, we didn't think anybody else was
    8 investigating the crime.
    9 MIKE KANE: John's attorney said there were
    10 certain conditions and they were put on. What
    11 conditions are you talking about specifically so
    12 we can --
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: By the police?
    14 MIKE KANE: Yeah.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, on the 27th, they said,
    16 (Well, we want you to come to the police station.̃
    17 We said, (We're mentally not capable.̃ Our family
    18 doctor was there. He said Patsy was in no
    19 condition to leave this house. They said, (Well,
    20 we've got to have you come to the police station.̃
    21 I said why, he said, (Well we have records there
    22 we want to pull out and look at.̃
    23 And we said, (We can't. If you come here we'll
    24 spend as much time as you want. But we physically
    25 cannot be there.̃ And that's when Mike Bynum
    0020
    1 stepped in and said, wait a minute, time out. And
    2 he was there delivering food; he's a friend of
    3 mine and he happened to be an attorney and he
    4 smelled a rat, frankly.
    5 LOU SMIT: Now this was while you were at
    6 Fernie's?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    8 LOU SMIT: Is that the first time that you
    9 contacted the lawyer, that they contacted you?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: He was there. He was bringing
    11 food over from Pasta Jay's, and just happened to
    12 be there when the police were trying to haul us
    13 down to the police station, and he said time out.
    14 He took me inside and he said, (John, there's some
    15 things going here. Would you allow me to do what I
    16 think is necessary?̃ and I said, (Of course.̃
    17 LOU SMIT: And what did he do, John?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember, but you'd
    19 have to ask him, I guess. But I suspect what he
    20 did is take the police aside and say, stop. You
    21 cannot do what you're doing to these people. And
    22 he arranged to bring Bryan in and Pat and were
    23 just kind of on autopilot there. And frankly,
    24 skeptical, why did we need to do this.
    25 But as time went on we became more and more
    0021
    1 confused of what the police trying to do. They
    2 were trying to put a square peg in a round hole,
    3 and we're the square peg. And, you know, it was an
    4 extremely frustrating time for us. It still is.
    5 Cause we know we didn't do it; there's a killer
    6 out there.
    7 LOU SMIT: Well, right now, John, it sounds
    8 a lot to me like you're kind of letting go of the
    9 lawyer and coming down. It's almost like starting
    10 over. It just seems to happen, just in your own
    11 words, how you explained that.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I would love not to have
    13 attorneys in the middle of this. In fact, as long
    14 as we are considered suspects in the murder case,
    15 I got to have an attorney. That's the way I look
    16 at it. That's always kind of been my guideline. If
    17 it was said to us in January, (Look we don't
    18 really think you are suspects,̃ I would have no
    19 need for an attorney. But that's, you know, the
    20 police said we're under an umbrella of suspicion.
    21 Frankly, I think if they were honest about it,
    22 they should say we're their number one suspect and
    23 there are no other.
    24 That's what we believe. Now, if we're wrong, we're
    25 horribly wrong. But given that, and that's our
    0022
    1 belief, you know, having guidance, I guess, in
    2 this whole area to protect us is important. You
    3 know, we've had detectives come in. They came in
    4 one morning into my son's apartment, college
    5 students, and barged in and, (we want to talk to
    6 you boys.̃ And they said, well one of the kids
    7 said, (Well, gee, I need to call my dad and maybe
    8 talk to his attorney.̃ The detective said, (Well,
    9 innocent people don't need attorneys.̃ And what a
    10 slam, you know.
    11 LOU SMIT: That is, you know, that's the
    12 perception that (INAUDIBLE) have.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's -- the law in the
    14 hands of bigots is a dangerous thing. And,
    15 frankly, that's what we have here.
    16 LOU SMIT: If I might just make a couple
    17 comments on that. You know, I've been here like
    18 for 16 (INAUDIBLE) and it appears as though the
    19 investigation focuses on two areas: the Ramseys
    20 and on an intruder.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    22 LOU SMIT: And I know that a lot of work
    23 has been done in regards to you. But see, John, I
    24 have to stick up for the Boulder Police Department
    25 a little bit. I don't know what all personally
    0023
    1 went with you. But they initially focused on you
    2 because of certain things that happened in the
    3 house and that they found. And you were in the
    4 house. So, as a detective, I myself would have
    5 probably have done that. I would have probably
    6 said, (Wait a minute, I got to put you on the
    7 front burner, John.̃ And I gotta do that.
    8 So, in fairness to them, I think that they
    9 started off doing what detectives do. They take
    10 the most logical thing that's happened. You were
    11 there; there were strange circumstances that
    12 occurred and we'll get into these here a little
    13 bit later. And so they would focus on you
    14 initially. And I would. I'd do the same thing. And
    15 I'd concentrate my investigation on you. And
    16 really, what detectives do, they aren't supposed
    17 to make judgments. What they are supposed to do is
    18 to focus on an area of the investigation and
    19 collect and record information. That's what
    20 detectives do. That's all we're supposed to do.
    21 Then we're supposed to take this information to a
    22 prosecutor or to other people that evaluate this
    23 information. And then they make a determination as
    24 to whether there will be charges filed.
    25 So really, as detectives, even on the Boulder
    0024
    1 Police Department, that's what they were doing
    2 initially, is gathering information. And, sure,
    3 they gathered a whole lot of it. And, John, on
    4 this area, there's going to be way more
    5 information gathered.
    6 But that's how I would look at it. It's
    7 information. I'm not going conclude that you're
    8 guilty because of this. And I'm not going to
    9 conclude that an intruder is guilty. I'm going to
    10 collect information and then let other people
    11 evaluate that. What do you say to that?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: We are comfortable with that.
    13 We never objected to being looked at. We
    14 understand that, logically, we were in the house.
    15 Okay. We accept that in an objective
    16 investigation. What became concerning to us is,
    17 our investigators, you know, had a tip line;
    18 they'd get calls, you know. I tried to call the
    19 Boulder police for five days for a month. They
    20 won't return my call. I have a lead, you know. I'm
    21 anxious to tell someone.
    22 I lost count of the number of times that happened.
    23 It started to occur to us that they're just
    24 blowing off the other inputs on this. You know,
    25 they're so focused on the Ramseys that nothing
    0025
    1 else is getting looked at. We said early on,
    2 (Look, you're spending too much time on us. Look
    3 elsewhere as well and we'll be fine.̃ But we never
    4 got comfortable that there was anything going on
    5 but a 100 percent focus on the Ramseys.
    6 LOU SMIT: No, John, just from looking at
    7 the case report, and again, in respect of the
    8 police department, they have looked into other
    9 areas. I know that there's been a lot of focus on
    10 you, but I looked at every one of those reports.
    11 There's been a lot of work done in other ways. And
    12 I know from your perception it seems like that --
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    14 LOU SMIT: -- but they have done a lot of
    15 work.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, and I say, we may be
    17 totally wrong and owe a lot of apologies, but what
    18 I want to do is just frame what our perception is
    19 so you understand.
    20 LOU SMIT: Well, when you're through being
    21 put under the microscope with inspection, it will
    22 point to what actually happened. The microscope
    23 can't lie. But the person that looks through it
    24 possible can interpret it different.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we know a lot of effort
    0026
    1 has been put into this and we're grateful for
    2 that. And, you know, I sometimes find myself
    3 thinking, (Gee, those guys are working their butts
    4 off and we're criticizing them.̃ But then
    5 something will come up which will just confirm our
    6 suspicions. And so we've never been able to get
    7 over that trust area.
    8 And I don't mind having -- we've got nothing to
    9 hide. They can look at anything and ask us
    10 anything and, that's always been our position. But
    11 I guess there's got to be a level of trust in the
    12 objectivity of the -- in the relationship, I
    13 guess, with the investigation. I've never done
    14 this before.
    15 It's very hurtful to have be what you thought was
    16 a very good parent and a loving parent, and then
    17 to have lost a child, and then to be accused of,
    18 at least, accused by inclusion in the suspect
    19 list, of hurting your child. It's beyond anything
    20 you can comprehend was possible.
    21 LOU SMIT: How is Patsy doing?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy is doing pretty good.
    23 She's, as she said, very well. She's been hurt as
    24 much as she could be hurt. So there's nothing else
    25 that anybody can do to her that would hurt her
    0027
    1 anymore than the loss of JonBenet. So we can take
    2 a lot of blows once you've taken a big one like
    3 that.
    4 LOU SMIT: Okay. If I can continue this a
    5 little bit here. Bryan, do you have any comments
    6 you would like to make in regards to that? I mean
    7 --
    8 BRYAN MORGAN: I have a lot of comments
    9 I'd
    10 like to make about how this attitude came about.
    11 But, frankly, I don't think that's productive.
    12 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    13 BRYAN MORGAN: I'm happy to document the
    14 reasons why we acted the way we did. I seriously
    15 doubt anybody running a professional investigation
    16 would have done the media lakes that still occur.
    17 And I'm not convinced people are just gathering
    18 information and trying to give it to the district
    19 attorney. I think they're still fighting a media
    20 war (INAUDIBLE) side just to try to get the
    21 district attorney's office to file charges.
    22 So, I'll leave it at that.
    23 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    24 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't think that's the way
    25 you operate. And we'll go forward.
    0028
    1 MIKE KANE: Yeah. And, for the record, the
    2 investigator is biting his tongue through all of
    3 this.
    4 BRYAN MORGAN: Never mind. Let's go, let's
    5 go. They need to talk to this man, not us.
    6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's -- if we catch the
    7 person that did this, if we catch the killer, and
    8 we've never lost confidence that we can, we're
    9 going to need to prosecute him or her. And we do
    10 want a conviction on this person. And we want him
    11 punished as payment for that horrible and brutal
    12 crime they committed. And do you agree with this?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: One hundred percent.
    14 LOU SMIT: First of all, the defense most
    15 likely would be that you and patsy are the, if we
    16 catch him, that you and Patsy are the ones
    17 involved in (INAUDIBLE). And I think that's
    18 probably going to be (INAUDIBLE) if we do catch
    19 this guy. And they may think that we can't
    20 eliminate you as a suspect. So, for that reason
    21 alone, we must take steps now to prove your
    22 innocence.
    23 And I know one thing about investigation: it
    24 shouldn't only be used to prove guilt, but
    25 innocence as well. And that's why we need all of
    0029
    1 the help that you can give us. Now, we cannot
    2 actively pursue and convict this individual if you
    3 and Patsy are in the way of the investigation.
    4 We've got to get past you, and the sooner the
    5 better.
    6 For the past year and a half, you and Patsy have
    7 been in the picture. In fact, you have been the
    8 picture. There's been very little room for anyone
    9 else. This procedure is not going to be easy. What
    10 we're going to be going through, even at the
    11 district attorney's office. In fact, you may
    12 perceive it, even though it seems like you have
    13 trust and confidence in us, that it's going to be
    14 harsh, cruel, insensitive, uncaring and demeaning.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I trust you objectivity and
    16 your experience.
    17 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: That's what I trust. And that's
    19 all we've ever asked for in the investigation.
    20 LOU SMIT: But you may feel this.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: That's fine. We put ourselves
    22 up for that.
    23 LOU SMIT: If you think you were under a
    24 magnifying glass with the police department, you
    25 better be aware that you'll be place under more
    0030
    1 scrutiny now. You'll be looked at under a
    2 microscope, like I mentioned before, by the
    3 prosecutors.
    4 My role, as I see it, is to work towards
    5 investigating the case and collecting and
    6 recording information. Mike Kane, even, was hired
    7 to look into the grand jury proceedings. He and
    8 others involved in the case will take a fair look
    9 at all of the information obtained, and will look
    10 very closely into all aspects of the case.
    11 We will both be asking questions in different ways
    12 in our own areas from now on. In our discussion,
    13 Mike emphasized that he will look, not only into
    14 family involvement, but he'll look into the
    15 intruder aspect of it also. In many instances it
    16 will seem that we're concentrating only on you and
    17 Patsy. And in some cases we will be. However, not
    18 necessarily to convict, but also to prove
    19 innocence. And that's what I mentioned before.
    20 When everything is completed, the truth should be
    21 evident and you should be able to go on with your
    22 lives in a fairly normal way.
    23 Now, Mike, do you have anything to day at this
    24 time?
    25 MICHALE KANE: I do. Mr. Ramsey, I'm somewhat
    0031
    1 new on the scene here. We've never been
    2 introduced. But I just wanted to say, I mean from
    3 a prosecutor's perspective, I come into this as a
    4 lawyer and probably not even just as a lawyer, as
    5 a prosecutor with a different mentality.
    6 Investigators go out and dig up leads and
    7 information.
    8 I always think in terms of down the road. I'm sure
    9 Bryan is the same way, when you're evaluating
    10 things, you're think: how is going to be in court;
    11 how is this going to play out. And so it gives me
    12 from a different perspective in some regards.
    13 The one thing that I wanted to emphasize, and with
    14 what Lou has been saying is that, let's
    15 (INAUDIBLE) down the road that someday there's
    16 evidence that develops against an individual in
    17 your home that night. And enough evidence develops
    18 that we can file charges against that individual.
    19 And, in short of some kind of confession or
    20 whatever, we have to go to trial and prove that
    21 person's guilt. There is no question, and you've
    22 seen it because you've lived with it for a year
    23 and a half, there is no question that the defense
    24 is going to be, (It wasn't my guy. It was the
    25 people living in the house.̃
    0032
    1 And, of course, as a prosecutor, our goal is to
    2 prove guilt of that individual beyond a reasonable
    3 doubt. And the flip side of that is, that the
    4 defense only has to suggest to create a reasonable
    5 doubt that maybe you were involved.
    6 And so from my perspective, and I think Lou and I
    7 talked about this since the day I came in, and
    8 everybody in the D.A.'s office, I think, looked at
    9 it the same way. In fact, as Lou said, we have to
    10 prove -- if we're going to prove it's an intruder,
    11 we have to prove your innocence.
    12 And what that means is, is that a defense attorney
    13 is going to go after you with a lot of very tough
    14 questions to suggest that reasonable doubt. That
    15 means I have to do the same thing. Because I have
    16 to know the answers before any defense attorney
    17 brings them up in the trial.
    18 So I just want you to understand that, if I ask a
    19 question, and I read your interviews with the
    20 police department before. I know how it can get
    21 uncomfortable if you get (INAUDIBLE). Would you
    22 please try to understand, I'm going to ask a
    23 question because I'm going to play the role that a
    24 defense attorney is going to play and I just have
    25 to hear what the answer will be.
    0033
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's an interesting
    2 perspective. It's one I hadn't even thought about
    3 is. I mean, my hope is that, you know, this person
    4 is caught and they confess, and that's it. And
    5 there's some --
    6 MIKE KANE: I mean --
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: -- some piece of evidence that
    8 confirms their confession and off we go. But I
    9 never thought of that scenario, frankly.
    10 MIKE KANE: Well, let me just add. So
    11 truthfully it becomes absolutely -- you were in
    12 the Navy. And there's a term -- I was never in the
    13 Navy, but I know that there's a term called
    14 (quibbling̃, and you know what quibbling is?
    15 Technically true, but misleading.
    16 So it's very important to not only give the truth,
    17 the technical truth, but there's no quibbling
    18 about it. But if something doesn't fit, but it's
    19 the truth, just tell us the truth and we'll deal
    20 with that.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.
    22 LOU SMIT: You know, Mike also has assured
    23 me in many discussions that we've talked about,
    24 that there will be a two-way investigation.
    25 Definitely. In other words, investigations that we
    0034
    1 can cover the aspects he just said and also into
    2 the intruder. So, he has assured me that, and
    3 thank God we can do more on that, maybe no. I
    4 don't know. I think we can. Part of the thing I
    5 want do with you while you're here is, I've got a
    6 tone of leads that I would like to discuss with
    7 you.
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Wonderful.
    9 LOU SMIT: And it won't be coming right away,
    10 but that's why I didn't know how much time you had
    11 to spend with us.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: We're here indefinitely as
    13 far as I'm concerned. So, you know.
    14 LOU SMIT: Would you like to take a little
    15 break or anything or are you just --?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I'm fine. If this would
    17 have been said to us 18 months ago, it would have
    18 been a whole different picture, frankly. So, I
    19 mean, I'm frankly, I would love to not have
    20 attorneys. I mean, first of all, they've depleted
    21 most of most of my life savings. But, to say
    22 regretfully, I concluded that they are necessary.
    23 LOU SMIT: We'll get on it (INAUDIBLE). We
    24 have to proceed, because it's just too important
    25 for us to --
    0035
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Well anyway. You know,
    2 I think about all the man-hours and the focus and
    3 the sacrifices I know you've made to find this
    4 killer. And, on behalf of JonBenet, thank you.
    5 LOU SMIT: I appreciate that. And there
    6 has been a lot of others that have done the same.
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I know. I know that.
    8 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) detectives in court
    9 themselves --
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I know they have. I know they
    11 have.
    12 LOU SMIT: Okay. We'll restart at 20 till
    13 10 and we'll just kind of continue on with this.
    14 But it's going a lot quicker than what I thought
    15 and that's real good.
    16 Now we have amassed pages and pages of questions
    17 and from all kinds of sources, and there's almost
    18 too many questions to handle, even at this time.
    19 It's just that people have come in, the Boulder
    20 Police Department has come in and they have
    21 experts that supplied us with questions. They knew
    22 were coming in today. And so we got questions from
    23 a lot of different areas. And some of them are
    24 hard questions; some of them are just normal
    25 questions. Some of them we're going to have to
    0036
    1 ask, the majority of them. There are certain
    2 questions that I'm sure that we won't be able to
    3 do that.
    4 That's part of this procedure. You're here and we
    5 can do this at this time. It seems like they need
    6 most of the information. So we'll just go from
    7 there. And I don't know if I said this before, but
    8 it's our job to prove innocence, not yours.
    9 You know, I was going to ask you if there was any
    10 place you would like to start this because I want
    11 you to feel comfortable in this interview.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I think I wanted you to
    13 know our perspective, which I think we talked
    14 about. So where (INAUDIBLE) start is fine.
    15 LOU SMIT: Okay. Did you have any specific
    16 questions about certain things in the case or
    17 evidence (INAUDIBLE). There's some things I give
    18 answers to and there's some things that I can't.
    19 But I'll try, within certain limits, to answer
    20 your questions too. But I'd appreciate if you
    21 would kind of hold them until a little bit later
    22 and we'll see what we can do about that.
    23 And we're just going to just start. This is right
    24 off the bat, John. Give us your thoughts and
    25 feelings as to what happened to your daughter that
    0037
    1 night? Personal. Any kind of thoughts.
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, you hope that she didn't
    3 suffer. And if I let myself think beyond that,
    4 it's too difficult. But my hope is that she didn't
    5 suffer. And, as far as (INAUDIBLE) this, I don't
    6 know. Like I have not let myself think about that
    7 too much, frankly.
    8 LOU SMIT: have you or your investigative
    9 team discussed different aspects of this as to
    10 what could have happened? Do you have any insight
    11 on that? You've been probably investigating this
    12 for, you know, the length of time that we have. I
    13 mean, if it's not you, obviously it has to be
    14 (INAUDIBLE).
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    16 LOU SMIT: What is your perspective on that?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think, obviously we
    18 know it was an intruder, first of all. We spend
    19 some time with John Douglas, who is a profiler for
    20 the FBI, and he basically said it's someone that
    21 you know. It's somebody that's been in the house
    22 and it's somebody that's angry with you or
    23 jealous. And, you know, we try to put that box
    24 around it. We come up and say that we don't know
    25 anybody that evil. And so it's very difficult for
    0038
    1 us to say, well you know it must have been
    2 so-and-so, because we don't know anybody that
    3 evil.
    4 We were getting to be a little more higher profile
    5 in the community than I was comfortable with. I
    6 thought about security, hadn't done really done
    7 anything about it. But there'd been an article in
    8 the paper a couple weeks before about our company
    9 had just past a billion dollars in sales. And I
    10 had this gut feeling when they wanted to do that
    11 publicity, that we shouldn't do it. But they had
    12 it already rolling and they'd contacted the
    13 camera. So I let them go ahead and do it.
    14 I don't know if that kind of publicity elevated
    15 this in somebody's mind. JonBenet was in a
    16 Christmas parade, the December Christmas Parade.
    17 In retrospect, after, you know, that was something
    18 which she shouldn't have done.
    19 One of the things I guess we realized about
    20 all this, there's some very nice people. There's
    21 some very good people in the world and there's
    22 some very bad people. They're around you and you
    23 just better be aware of them. And we were naive.
    24 We felt we were in a safe community. We thought
    25 all people were like us, basically pretty good
    0039
    1 people. And that's not true.
    2 So I wonder if those, either of those two events
    3 might have elevated us into the cross hairs of
    4 this maniac. And if they were angry at me, why
    5 didn't they take it out on me? If they were angry
    6 at me, why didn't they take it out on my son? Why
    7 JonBenet?
    8 LOU SMIT: Why do you say (theỹ John?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: (It.̃ I don't feel I have
    10 (INAUDIBLE). I mean, I don't know. I mean, I in my
    11 mind think that there's one person; one creature.
    12 LOU SMIT: Do you have a mental picture of
    13 this person?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. I thought about that.
    15 Again, that's too hard to think about.
    16 LOU SMIT: Okay. And I know, John, that it
    17 really hurts to talk about this guy, but that's
    18 probably all you've thought about since day one.
    19 You must have a mental picture of the type of
    20 person this is. I mean, in your mind. I know I
    21 have a mental picture of various people that I
    22 would look at. But I'm sure you think about this
    23 all the time.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, absolutely, everyday. You
    25 know. Of course, my first instinct is, it was a
    0040
    1 man. Because of some of the similarities,
    2 apparently in Patsy's handwriting, I wondered if
    3 it was a woman. The ransom note seemed childish,
    4 in terms of a young person. I think this person
    5 was very sick or trying to be very clever.
    6 You know, if they really wanted to do this, hurt
    7 us and walk away, why did they go to the trouble
    8 of leaving a ransom note? When Mike Bynum said,
    9 (Thank God they left a ransom note.̃ You know, why
    10 is that? And it finally dawned on me what he
    11 meant. They left us a piece of evidence. They were
    12 clever enough not to leave much else, apparently.
    13 I think it's say somebody that's very sick, thinks
    14 they're very clever, is playing games. You know,
    15 we heard about the two Bible verses, Psalms, that
    16 were circled in some book. I don't know, some
    17 book or not. I was not told that directly. We
    18 heard it through the backdoor.
    19 LOU SMIT: You didn't circle Bible passages?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). They were leaving
    21 little clues to analyze this. I think entry was
    22 gained through the basement window.
    23 LOU SMIT: Why do you think that?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Because the window was cracked
    25 open. There was this large suitcase under it, as
    0041
    1 if it was used to climb out. That suitcase didn't
    2 belong there. I think the person was in the house,
    3 if not when we got home, shortly after. I think
    4 she was killed that night, versus in the morning.
    5 LOU SMIT: What makes you think that?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the note talked about
    7 (I'm going to call you tomorrow.̃ And we debated,
    8 it was like tomorrow tomorrow, or tomorrow today.
    9 And, of course, we hoped it was today, you know,
    10 the 26th. When I found her, she was -- her body
    11 was cooled. Her arms were stiff. And that was it.
    12 (INAUDIBLE) that morning.
    13 Yet it was ironic that we were home that night. We
    14 were leaving the next day for a second Christmas
    15 with our older children and then we were coming
    16 back from there. And we had bought and paid for
    17 tickets on the (Big Red Boat.̃ It was to be our
    18 first family cruise, first time we'd ever taken a
    19 cruise. The kids were looking forward to that. And
    20 it was just our misfortune that we were home that
    21 night, or somebody knew our schedule. I don't
    22 know.
    23 LOU SMIT: See, John, we're going to get
    24 into a lot of that, in specifics. That's why I'm
    25 glad you're bringing it up a little bit now,
    0042
    1 because it's in your mind. And later on we'll take
    2 all of those specific items and we'll kind of go
    3 over it. And then we're going to look at what was
    4 said, and then we may go over them again, because
    5 I that may prompt more questions as we go.
    6 That's why I wanted to kind of just test you
    7 recall and just see how you felt about that.
    8 There's been a lot of speculation by a lot of
    9 people that maybe you didn't know anything about
    10 the murder, but maybe Patsy did. I know that's a
    11 hard question. It's one of the hard ones I have to
    12 ask you. But what do you fell about that?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Monstrous. I mean, Patsy loves
    14 both her children dearly. But frankly, she and
    15 JonBenet were extremely close and Patsy fought
    16 back from Stage Four ovarian cancer, which
    17 probably, she had it five years ago, would have
    18 been fatal in a few months. She fought back to
    19 live so she could be with the children. And I knew
    20 that. And she said that later, she said that she
    21 was too young to leave those children. That kept
    22 her going and it gave her the will to fight to
    23 beat it. And she beat it.
    24 Plus she's probably the kindest, least
    25 mean-spirited person I know. There's not a mean
    0043
    1 bone in Patsy's body against anyone, let alone her
    2 children. So, it's just, I mean it's absolutely
    3 out of the question.
    4 LOU SMIT: See, John, I know these are really
    5 tough. And that's why we have to go into them,
    6 because the defense attorney is going to do all of
    7 this in spades and, not only that, but we have to
    8 know the answers to questions which people
    9 perceive. They have their own perception on a
    10 question. And it's a lot better to have it come
    11 out of your mouth, and we'll bring up these things
    12 again.
    13 And that's why, you know, Patsy's demeanor,
    14 we're going to really go into that. We need to
    15 have answers to all of that so that people don't
    16 perceive it in a different way. And, again, all of
    17 this is information that we're collecting. What
    18 better place, than from you? That's what I said
    19 since the beginning. You are our best source of
    20 information. And here we haven't been able to
    21 contact you or do that.
    22 So, what do you want to happen to the person who
    23 did this?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought about that everyday.
    25 And there's certainly the Christian side of me
    0044
    1 that says, you know, forgive others' trespasses.
    2 But what I've concluded is, that, you know, that
    3 there is forgiveness, but there is accountability.
    4 And this person must be held accountable.
    5 Now, okay, what's accountability? I've gone from,
    6 you know, hang him by the neck until dead in the
    7 public square to put a tattoo on his forehead that
    8 said, (I killed JonBenet,̃ and let him go through
    9 life that way. But that's the rage within me.
    10 Sometimes it's just is there, frankly. But, you've
    11 got to try to put in the Christian perspective as
    12 to what -- how should I really feel.
    13 Fundamentally, I would want the harshest, cruelest
    14 treatment that our society can put on an
    15 individual for doing this.
    16 LOU SMIT: Including?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think, to me, the worst
    18 thing that you can do is put a tattoo on his
    19 forehead that said, (I'm a child killer,̃ and let
    20 him go out in the street. We've had to live with
    21 this for 18 months. We'll have to live with this
    22 for the rest of our lives.
    23 My family, my children, this has affected a lot of
    24 lives. Plus, JonBenet's life has been lost. She
    25 could have been a significant contributor to the
    0045
    1 world and that opportunity is gone. And whoever
    2 did this needs to suffer.
    3 LOU SMIT: You know, you mentioned religion
    4 before. I think even in our past, we briefly
    5 discussed that. Tell us a little bit about your
    6 religious beliefs? And I know this is a personal
    7 thing; I know it is personal to me. If you don't
    8 mind, just kind of --
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean, I as an occasional
    10 Sunday Christian, I guess, for years. My mother
    11 dragged me to church and I went regretfully and
    12 reluctantly. And what you find, I think, is that
    13 your spiritual foundation is that. It's a
    14 foundation that you fall upon periodically in your
    15 life. And it's there and it's helpful. And if it's
    16 not, you're lacking. Because you're not on all the
    17 time.
    18 So my spiritual foundation has really grown over
    19 the years. I think first, the first blocks were
    20 made by my mother who dragged me to church every
    21 Sunday. And then when I was divorced, I went back
    22 to church and that foundation was there. It was
    23 helpful.
    24 And then we lost Beth, my oldest daughter, in a
    25 car accident, my religious foundations were
    0046
    1 shaken, big time. You know, how could that happen?
    2 How could be allowed to happen? This wonderful
    3 child, this person who had so much to give; who
    4 was kind and loving. To be killed in a car
    5 accident, where is this God, this caring loving
    6 God?
    7 But I did a lot of reading, a lot of thinking and,
    8 frankly, my foundations were strengthened
    9 ultimately by that. And when we lost JonBenet, I
    10 think the foundation was there and helped
    11 immensely and was further strengthened for me.
    12 So it's been a spiritual growth. It's exactly
    13 that. It's a growing process. You're exposed to
    14 people that are ahead of you in that journey and
    15 you learn from them, and hopefully help people
    16 that are behind you on that journey. It's only on
    17 one path; I'm not there yet. But I'm glad to say
    18 that I've been growing and that's helped me deal
    19 with this a lot.
    20 LOU SMIT: You think your religious beliefs
    21 are stronger now than what they were before?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely. Yes, they are.
    23 LOU SMIT: what's in your prayers at night?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I pray that God will bring the
    25 killer to the attention of the police. That He
    0047
    1 will be remorseful and come forward and confess. I
    2 always try to be thankful for the blessings I
    3 have. I have three wonderful children that are
    4 still there and need me and support me. And try to
    5 keep that perspective. And praying about it helps.
    6 But I asked a good friend of mind, who's much
    7 further along in the spiritual journey than I am.
    8 I said, (Do I need to keep asking God to find this
    9 killer or is one request enough?̃ And he said keep
    10 knocking. So I keep knocking.
    11 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's pretty emotional.
    12 Have you put any thought into what our respective
    13 roles should be from this day forward? If you
    14 thought about that, what are your thoughts about
    15 that?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, what we want to participate
    17 in is an open, ongoing dialog with the sole
    18 objective of finding the killer. And if it means
    19 that Patsy and I come out here and rent an
    20 apartment so we're nearby, we'll do it. I mean,
    21 it's that complete of a focus on our part.
    22 What I'm anxious for is that this open dialog
    23 starts now as it should have 18 months ago. And
    24 that we work through the process that we have to
    25 work through to get where we all want to get to.
    0048
    1 I'm not particularly, even if these guys are great
    2 human beings, I'm not anxious to communicate
    3 through them or have to consult with them when I
    4 try to say something. But I guess I'd just been
    5 convinced by them that it was necessary early on.
    6 But I hope that's changed. I'm confident it has.
    7 So our role is to do whatever we can to assist you
    8 in what you're trying to do.
    9 LOU SMIT: Mike? I've been talking here,
    10 Mike (INAUDIBLE)?
    11 MIKE KANE: No. I don't have anything to
    12 add,
    13 I think, at this time. Down the road, like Lou
    14 said, we'll probably want to get into more
    15 specifics. But for right now, this is fine.
    16 LOU SMIT: You know what? Just a thought
    17 popped into my mind, I just wrote a little note.
    18 Can you talk about your daughter a bit? Near your
    19 nightstand on your bed there was a book on dying?
    20 How did that get there and did you read that a lot
    21 or what?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm not sure what book was
    23 there, but I did a lot of reading after she died.
    24 I did a lot of reading about, a lot of books on
    25 near death experiences and life after life and Dr.
    0049
    1 (INAUDIBLE). And, frankly, it was wonderfully
    2 helpful. In fact, (INAUDIBLE). At that point in my
    3 faith, I guess, I wasn't sure what the big picture
    4 was. And, see you try to really figure that out.
    5 And I read lots of books, and it was helpful to me
    6 to
    7 I mean the worst book I think I ever picked up was
    8 one that was entitled (When Good-bye is Forever.̃
    9 And that's contradictory to what you want to
    10 believe. Let's hope it's not forever.
    11 LOU SMIT: Is that your Christianity you're
    12 talking about?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    14 LOU SMIT: And what do you consider the big
    15 picture is?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: The picture is that, as a
    17 Christian, I believe that there is life in the
    18 flesh, there is life on earth and there is a life
    19 after death. And if all there was to life was what
    20 we got here on earth, what's the point? And the
    21 big picture is realizing that there is more of a
    22 point to life than being here and just trying to
    23 make some money and drive a nice car, and it's
    24 over.
    25 So I read a lot. And losing Beth was extremely for
    0050
    1 me. She was my oldest child. We were extremely
    2 close. She raised me, basically. And I mean I was
    3 just getting to the point where I didn't think
    4 about it a lot. I guess four, four and a half
    5 years later.
    6 LOU SMIT: John, I know that this part has
    7 been kind of you talking and everything and kind
    8 of expressing your thoughts and feelings. And I
    9 think that the next step that I might take is: I
    10 am going to go into certain areas of the
    11 investigation. And I'm going to go more
    12 specifically into those areas. Now, do you guys
    13 want to break or you fell like you might --
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I'm fine.
    15 BRYAN MORGAN: Let's get on.
    16 LOU SMIT: We're cranking here. Okay. The
    17 first thing I'd like talk to talk about, I'm not
    18 going to go way back into your past or anything at
    19 this time. And I kind of want to start -- this is
    20 shortly before the 26th. I think that the Camera
    21 article came out on the 21st. And that's just form
    22 recollection from me. And I'd like to ask you a
    23 little bit about certain specific things about
    24 that.
    25 First of all, what do you remember about the
    0051
    1 Camera article specifically?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I remember it talked
    3 about us crossing the billion dollar sales level.
    4 I talked to a reporter. I think they had some
    5 quotes in the article from me about (INAUDIBLE).
    6 We had a luncheon party at the Boulderado for all
    7 employees and that's about all I remember.
    8 LOU SMIT: Do you remember who the reporter
    9 was?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. But I've got the
    11 article so I can find out. But I don't who it was.
    12 I just talked to him on the phone.
    13 LOU SMIT: Okay. It wasn't an in-person
    14 interview?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    16 LOU SMIT: it was just over the phone?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    18 LOU SMIT: Did he contact you or did he --
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, our public relations
    20 girl/lady set up the interview and then handed the
    21 phone at the luncheon.
    22 LOU SMIT: And who was that?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Joanne Velva, now Joanne
    24 Andreason. I think she's still there.
    25 LOU SMIT: Another thing that I have written
    0052
    1 down here is: on the 21st and 22nd, actually it
    2 was on the 22nd, there was an Amerikids Pageant,
    3 and that's what I have listed in my time line. Do
    4 you remember JonBenet participating in the pageant
    5 just shortly before the Christmas?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, there was one down in
    7 Denver that she participated in. I don't remember
    8 that name. I think it's the one she got this medal
    9 at, this All Stars. But she was in that. Patsy
    10 would remember exactly. It was in December some
    11 time.
    12 LOU SMIT: Did you go to that pageant?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I went to the talent part
    14 which is always what I wanted to support JonBenet
    15 on, was the talent part of it. So I'd actually
    16 gone. Her talent performance was supposed to be at
    17 like 3 o'clock and I got there at three and it was
    18 actually ahead of scheduled because she had
    19 already done it and she had one off the whole
    20 thing for talent. And I walked in and she took
    21 this off her neck and put it on my neck. She knew
    22 that was important.
    23 I had always said, you know, you have fun, you
    24 know, don't worry about winning or losing but, you
    25 know, work on your talent. So that was always kind
    0053
    1 of like (INAUDIBLE).
    2 LOU SMIT: Did (INAUDIBLE) go to the
    3 pageants, John?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I would go to some of them,
    5 and I would go to the talent part when she was
    6 doing her performance. But I usually wouldn't go
    7 to the whole thing. That was a mother/daughter
    8 thing they just had. And that, of course, got
    9 blown way out of perspective, I believe. It was,
    10 what we thought was a private setting among
    11 parents and gave JonBenet a chance to develop some
    12 self-confidence and presence, and it was nothing
    13 more than something she and Patsy enjoyed doing
    14 together.
    15 LOU SMIT: Who normally went to her pageants?
    16 Was it just Patsy and JonBenet or --
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well sometimes her mother
    18 would go. Her sisters would go if they were here.
    19 Yeah, just usually Patsy and JonBenet. Because it
    20 was usually an all day deal. They'd go in the
    21 morning and come back in the afternoon.
    22 LOU SMIT: Well, I planned on going a little
    23 bit further on in the interview, and that's when
    24 we get into the itemized things. Let's kind of go
    25 over the pageants a little bit and maybe you can't
    0054
    1 answer all my questions.
    2 But you know there's a lot of times I'm sure
    3 JonBenet had certain training and certain people
    4 like coached her and certain people that knew her.
    5 Photographers that were involved with her. Things
    6 of that nature. And, as a detective, that's what I
    7 want to find out. And there's a lot of that in the
    8 report. Don't get me wrong. The Boulder Police
    9 Department really has done a lot of work on that.
    10 And I've got a lot of that information.
    11 But sometimes there's little pieces of that that
    12 you miss. And sometimes you may have some type of
    13 an idea or a little thought that maybe somebody
    14 was a little off on this. And I'll kind of go into
    15 that a little bit later. I'm just more or less
    16 trying to generally cover topics at this time.
    17 Okay. Now I want to go over -- the next thing I
    18 want to cover is: the Christmas party for the kids
    19 on the 23rd. now, if you could just in your own
    20 words recall what you remember about that first?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah. We had this
    22 Christmas party, usually a day or two before
    23 Christmas primarily for our family, friends and
    24 children. And we invite Santa Claus to come and
    25 we'd have presents for all the kids. And Santa
    0055
    1 would give them out and hors d'oeuvres and we'd
    2 start early and usually end early. And this year,
    3 we decided, or that year of '96, we decided, well
    4 we weren't going to do that because it was a lot
    5 of effort and Patsy just had her 40th birthday
    6 party and we were kind of partied out. We had a
    7 big birthday party for Patsy.
    8 LOU SMIT: When was her birthday?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had it, it was a
    10 surprise party, it was in early December. He
    11 birthday is not until the 29th of December, but we
    12 had a surprise birthday party in early December.
    13 So we kind of decided not to do the Christmas
    14 party. I think we were going to ask a friend or
    15 two over. (INAUDIBLE). The Santa Claus which
    16 normally came called us and said she had got
    17 Charles Kuralt here doing a documentary on me and
    18 he's been kind of following me around and I'd like
    19 him to come to your house, you know, for your
    20 Christmas party because I think it's a nice one
    21 and it's one of my favorites.
    22 And Patsy kind of threw together a Christmas party
    23 quickly because she thought that would be fun for
    24 the kids. And Patsy is a born publicist, I guess.
    25 She enjoys that kind of thing. And so we invited
    0056
    1 the regular crowd that always came and we put
    2 together the Christmas party.
    3 And Santa Claus came and passed out gifts and it
    4 was the standard party that we had every year. The
    5 kids decorated. I think they decorated a
    6 gingerbread house that night. Patsy went down and
    7 bought a bunch of these pre-made gingerbread
    8 houses and got big buckets of frosting and the
    9 kids were in the kitchen decorating them. One
    10 thing I always wondered was whether it was really
    11 Charles Kuralt.
    12 LOU SMIT: Who was the person that said that?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Bill Reynolds.
    14 LOU SMIT: I've got some pictures and these
    15 were taken. There's no numbers on these pictures,
    16 and they were taken, I believe right around that
    17 Christmas party. And they came out of a camera
    18 that was in the house. And you can kind of look at
    19 them and then may be point just --
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I can do that. You know,
    21 unfortunately, you tend to suspect everyone when
    22 something like this happens.
    23 LOU SMIT: What I'd like you to do, John,
    24 is just kind of look at the photograph and tell me
    25 who's in it. And if you can remember when this was
    0057
    1 taken and by who.
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Well, of course, that's
    3 myself and John Fernie. I don't know what he's got
    4 in his hand there. Must be some kind a bag. Could
    5 be that.
    6 LOU SMIT: Is that the one where he's also
    7 holding a scarf?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: He's holding a scarf. I guess
    9 it looks like -- Patsy gave all the men scarves.
    10 That might have been the scarf she gave him, in
    11 which case it would have been as Santa passed out
    12 the gifts. She had Santa Claus usually read
    13 something to the kids. That's probably what's
    14 going on there.
    15 LOU SMIT: Well the camera, John, is pointing
    16 to a picture of Santa Claus kind of in a pensive
    17 mood and Mrs. Claus is right behind him.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    19 LOU SMIT: We're going to go into Santa Claus
    20 a little bit later and all kinds of Santa Clauses.
    21 Because there was other Santa Clauses involved in
    22 these different parties. In fact, there's even
    23 indications that JonBenet may have had a secret
    24 Santa Claus. Have you heard that in the past?
    25 That's come up in our reports. And I'd like to
    0058
    1 talk a little bit about Santa Clauses and things
    2 of that nature.
    3 But what was McReyonlds' health about that time?
    4 What was your impression?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, he claimed to be very
    6 frail and the reason that Mrs. Claus came was
    7 because he was so frail. And she struck me as just
    8 kind of there. She wasn't really into it or
    9 particularly open. And I just accepted the fact
    10 that she probably didn't really want to be there,
    11 but was there because he was so frail that she had
    12 to be there to help him. I think that was the
    13 first year she ever came.
    14 LOU SMIT: Did you ever meet any of his
    15 family?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Patsy met him in the mall,
    17 quite frankly. He was walking down the mall in a
    18 Santa Claus outfit a few years ago. He was passing
    19 out candy to the kids. And Patsy's never met a
    20 stranger and struck up a conversation and said,
    21 (Will you come to our Christmas party.̃
    22 (INAUDIBLE) and got his phone number. That was, I
    23 think he'd done maybe three, maybe, parties. We
    24 had three years worth.
    25 LOU SMIT: Did you talk to him personally?
    0059
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Just at parties. Just in
    2 passing, you know. I didn't talk to him other than
    3 as Santa Claus.
    4 LOU SMIT: How did JonBenet react?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, she was fascinated with
    6 him. Cause she loved Christmas. Kids love
    7 Christmas. And Patsy was, Christmas was the
    8 holiday that Patsy always loved to decorate for.
    9 And, you know she had cancer. And I could tell
    10 that she was trying to do everything that she
    11 could for the kids while she was here. She didn't
    12 know -- she was in remission, but she didn't know.
    13 And we never talked about it. But she didn't know
    14 for sure that she'd be around when they got to be
    15 18.
    16 So every event like this was always a big deal and
    17 Patsy made the most of it. So Christmas
    18 particularly was always -- she really tried to
    19 make it a kids' thing. And Santa And JonBenet
    20 seemed to -- of course JonBenet was fascinated
    21 with Santa Claus, and I'm sure she thought it was
    22 the real Santa Claus. There was nothing fake about
    23 it.
    24 She apparently, the year before or two
    25 years before, been given a little bottle of angel
    0060
    1 dust which was from Walt Disney as a gift one
    2 night when he was there and I think it was the
    3 summer of '96 he sent us a letter saying that he
    4 was going in for, I think, it was open heart
    5 surgery and, you know, it's a serious operation,
    6 and he was taking this little bottle of angel dust
    7 that JonBenet gave to him.
    8 (UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER): (INAUDIBLE) special?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. Patsy might know.
    10 So, and we were touched by that. That that meant a
    11 lot to him.
    12 LOU SMIT: Do you know who took these pictures?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I would guess Fleet White,
    14 because he was taking pictures. But I don't know
    15 for sure.
    16 LOU SMIT: Just off the top of your head,
    17 do you remember who was there?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. The Fernies, John and
    19 Barbara Fernie. Priscilla and Fleet White. And, of
    20 course, their children; both the Fernie's children
    21 I think were there. Priscilla's sister and
    22 boyfriend who's this fellow. I don't remember what
    23 his name is, from California, was there.
    24 I can look at the picture and remember some people
    25 who were there. Say Don Paugh, Patsy's father. I
    0061
    1 think that's Glen Stine, Susan and Glen Stine.
    2 There's Priscilla there. I think that's
    3 Priscilla's mother. Her father, I think, was
    4 there. That's Betty Barnhill, I believe, from
    5 across the street.
    6 The Barnhills, somebody came looking for the
    7 Barnhills later in the evening, knocked on the
    8 door. I let him in, he said he was looking for Joe
    9 and Betty, eh was worried about them. I said, well
    10 they're in the next room and we invited him in and
    11 we made him feel at home. I think we learned later
    12 that he was a tenant they had living in the
    13 basement. But he was there for a while.
    14 LOU SMIT: What do you know about him?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Nothing. I had no idea they
    16 even had a tenant over there. That's the first
    17 time I had ever seen him. I thought he was just a
    18 guest from out of town.
    19 LOU SMIT: Do you know his name?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I did. After the facts.
    21 I don't know if I'd recognize it if you even told
    22 me.
    23 LOU SMIT: Glen Meyer?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Glen Meyer, yes. That's the
    25 only time I had ever seen him. At the time I
    0062
    1 didn't know who he was. I just thought he was a
    2 guest.
    3 LOU SMIT: But didn't you board your dog over
    4 at the Barnhill's?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: We did. They became attached
    6 to him. We had them keep him once or twice and
    7 they really loved him. They lost their dog and he
    8 died and so they really became attached to
    9 Jacques, and it was kind of a good setup because
    10 they took care of him and the kids could play with
    11 him. So it was, for us, it was, as parents, it was
    12 kind of neat.
    13 LOU SMIT: So did the kids go over there
    14 quite often?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was not uncommon for
    16 them to go over there or Jacques would come over.
    17 He'd stay with us sometimes and he became
    18 increasingly their dog because they were just so
    19 attached to it. And we thought it was kind of nice
    20 because they were older. It was nice companionship
    21 for them. It was kind of neat for us because the
    22 kids could still have a dog and we didn't have to
    23 deal with a dog 24 hours a day.
    24 So, more and more as time went on, he stayed more
    25 at the Barnhills than he did at our house.
    0063
    1 LOU SMIT: Were the kids developing a
    2 relationship with this fellow, Glen Meyers, do you
    3 think or has that ever been discussed?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: It's never been discussed.
    5 I don't know. To my knowledge anyway. As I say, I
    6 didn't even know he lived there. They had an
    7 apartment in the basement.
    8 LOU SMIT: Had you yourself ever been over
    9 to the Barnhill's?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. We went over for dinner
    11 once, I think. We'd stop in and check on them and
    12 take him things to eat sometimes. And I think
    13 Betty or Joe was sick for a while and Patsy would
    14 take them a thing of food and check on them. They
    15 were good neighbors.
    16 LOU SMIT: See, John, this is the kind of
    17 dialog I want. You learn things and quickly. And I
    18 don't have to guess. And this is a way that you
    19 can really (INAUDIBLE) a lot of information.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Great.
    21 LOU SMIT: And I don't know if he's involved
    22 in that. Who knows these things. But you gain an
    23 insight into relationships.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    25 LOU SMIT: And it's great.
    0064
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    2 LOU SMIT: You don't have to figure out all
    3 this stuff out here. You're giving us information
    4 that you know directly and that's what we wanted.
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely.
    6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Did you go to the
    7 Barnhills
    8 to pick up a bike?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, Christmas Eve. We'd
    10 given JonBenet a bike; we got Patsy a bike. We
    11 were giving Burke a bike but not that year.
    12 Anyway, there was a bike that we put in their
    13 basement, and I gone over after the kids went to
    14 bed to get it to put it under the tree. And Joe
    15 went down to the garage and went down to get it
    16 and brought it up. I offered to go get it and he
    17 said no, he'd go get it himself. I don't know
    18 where it specifically was, whether it was actually
    19 in his garage or his basement.
    20 LOU SMIT: You know, I've looked at a lot
    21 of pictures in regards to this particular case and
    22 I can't remember seeing any bikes. What happened
    23 to the bikes?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, they were in the garage,
    25 I guess. JonBenet rode her bike for a moment
    0065
    1 outside before we went to the White's; just round
    2 the patio. I'm sure that went back in the garage.
    3 Patsy's bike, I don't know, it could have gone in
    4 the garage. I don't remember.
    5 LOU SMIT: Have you seen it since, Patsy's
    6 bike?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. We have it.
    8 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) took it?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No. We gave, Jonbenet's bike
    10 we gave away. Patsy's bike we haven't (INAUDIBLE).
    11 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) Now you're looking
    12 at the bottom photograph, right under Santa on
    13 this?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Larry Barber. The Barbers
    15 are usually there every year. I don't see Pinky.
    16 She took pictures, she was (INAUDIBLE). The
    17 Stines, it's Barbara Fernie's mother. That's
    18 Priscilla's father. That's Benny Barnhill, that's
    19 Priscilla's mother. I don't know who those two
    20 people are. Oh, wait a minute.
    21 LOU SMIT: What we're looking at to on the
    22 photographs, just for the camera: that's a Santa
    23 Claus picture. That's the picture with Mr. Ramsey
    24 and John Fernie with the scarf. And he was just
    25 naming the people on this bottom photograph and so
    0066
    1 we correlate some way with the camera later, we
    2 can do that.
    3 It's just that there's no numbers on these
    4 pictures. They were in that folder and I didn't
    5 have a number associated with them. I pulled them
    6 --
    7 BRYAN MORGAN: What were the two that you
    8 did?
    9 LOU SMIT: Any time you have any questions
    10 to
    11 him, I have no objection if you interrupt because
    12 I know that you want to look into this stuff too.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that's Priscilla's
    14 -- yeah, one is Priscilla's relatives. The husband
    15 of Priscilla's -- I think it's Priscilla's sister,
    16 her sister's daughter. Patsy would remember the
    17 names probably.
    18 LOU SMIT: Were they just visiting at the
    19 time?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: They were there for Christmas.
    21 They stayed at the Whites. This is just kids doing
    22 their gingerbread house decorations.
    23 LOU SMIT: Just a quick question while you're
    24 on that photograph, and let's show it for the
    25 camera here. This shows Patsy and then the
    0067
    1 children making gingerbread houses. I notice in
    2 the report that for the past years you had always
    3 bought gingerbread houses. And it seems like they
    4 were always a part of your Christmas festivities?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had one or two
    6 made one year. She did an open house for the
    7 Historical Society. We were always part of the
    8 historical homes tour where they raise money for
    9 the Boulder Historical Society, and our house --
    10 we opened our house for that. And she had this
    11 really elaborate gingerbread house made by bob
    12 Wallace, who did some handy work for her. And that
    13 sat on our kitchen that year. I think we actually
    14 (INAUDIBLE) to use.
    15 But then we put it in a plastic bag, and it was
    16 real elaborate. And so I think it got reused a
    17 year or two before it finally gave up. But I think
    18 this is the first year she had had the kids
    19 decorate gingerbread houses. And so they were
    20 there, but I think it was.
    21 LOU SMIT: Sometimes I'm going to be very
    22 spontaneous. Bob Wallace, what kind of work did he
    23 do for you?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I think the first time he
    25 worked for us he cleaned all the windows. We had
    0068
    1 just finished our addition the third floor.
    2 LOU SMIT: When would that have been?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: '94 maybe; 1994 or '93,'94,
    4 somewhere in that timeframe. He was kind of our
    5 handyman. Patsy had him help her decorate for
    6 Christmas several years. I don't know if he made
    7 the gingerbread house or he had one of his friends
    8 make it. I assumed he had the house made.
    9 He did occasional handyman work, but mostly I
    10 think it was decorating around Christmas time.
    11 Because Patsy always decorated the house.
    12 LOU SMIT: In '96 did he do that?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember specifically
    14 if he did. Probably not. You see, we were leaving
    15 town the next morning after Christmas. So I don't
    16 recall. We weren't going to have a Christmas
    17 party, so I don't think Patsy did a whole lot of
    18 decorating. So I don't recall if he did.
    19 (INAUDIBLE)
    20 LOU SMIT: Did he have a friend that would
    21 come with him occasionally?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE)
    23 LOU SMIT: And I've never been able to
    24 locate
    25 that friend's name.
    0069
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that he was the guy
    2 that
    3 did the gingerbread house. I don't know his name.
    4 I don't think I ever did know his name.
    5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (INAUDIBLE). Robert
    6 or Rubio?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Doesn't ring a bell. I don't
    8 know if I ever knew his name. Or if I did, I don't
    9 quite remember.
    10 LOU SMIT: There's a chance that Patsy might.
    11 (INAUDIBLE). Maybe tomorrow or whenever we get
    12 together again, you can kind of learn that. It
    13 just seems to me and, again, I've read so much in
    14 this case that sometimes I'm full of information.
    15 But it seems to me like I don't know what his
    16 sexual proclivity was. But it seemed to me like he
    17 was --
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, they were both gay.
    19 LOU SMIT: That's what I was trying to get
    20 at.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    22 LOU SMIT: And that's why I was wondering
    23 if he had a gay friend.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: My impression was that they
    25 were both gay.
    0070
    1 LOU SMIT: Would he give, this fellow, Bob
    2 Wallace, give Patsy advice at certain advice at
    3 certain times, or did they did discuss things? Do
    4 you know that?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
    6 LOU SMIT: Do you know if he had a key to
    7 the house?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. I don't know
    9 if he did. I doubt he did. I don't think that he
    10 did. But Patsy, again, would know better than I
    11 would.
    12 LOU SMIT: Do you know where he came from?
    13 I mean, how did she meet this guy?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: That's a good question. I don't
    15 recall. I think he was from Denver. I don't know
    16 how she ran across him.
    17 LOU SMIT: Again, this is the kind of
    18 question that I like to sit down and ask you. I'm
    19 just a real brief thing. Sometimes we don't know
    20 the answer, but sometimes the answers come pretty
    21 flowing. And it does jiggle the thought process
    22 about it and start thinking. Again, pointing
    23 fingers at somebody, I don't do that. But it's
    24 nice to have a lead.
    25 And this is how you develop the lead; the thing
    0071
    1 has to be developed. And whether or not it's the
    2 right guy or not (INAUDIBLE).
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I know.
    4 LOU SMIT: Do you have anything on that,
    5 Mike? Again, Mike, if I'm going over things that
    6 you want to interject at all. Please do, because I
    7 know you have been just reading (INAUDIBLE)
    8 there than I am. So anyway I touched on that just
    9 because his name did come up.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    11 MIKE KANE: Would it be possible (INAUDIBLE)
    12 real quickly.
    13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: One more thing you
    14 might want to talk about -- David, why don't you
    15 ask the question because you're aware of this
    16 (INAUDIBLE). Cause he work on the windows. Was
    17 that your point?
    18 DAVID WILLIAMS: Well, yes. My point was: he
    19 cleaned all the windows back in '93, '94. There
    20 were screens on them at that time. See that's
    21 where we (INAUDIBLE) the screens were already off.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: We took the screens off when we
    23 painted the house and he would have cleaned the
    24 windows after the paint was done.
    25 LOU SMIT: When was the painting done?
    0072
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was finished just before
    2 that Boulder Home Tour, the Historic Home Tour,
    3 which I think was in '94. And the painting went on
    4 for years. Dominic thought the painter was -- well
    5 she thought he was --
    6 LOU SMIT: And who was the painter?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Jay Pedopiece. The reason
    8 I remember is, when it was over with, he went into
    9 the house just to finish up some last little
    10 touches. We were going to be out of town. Patsy
    11 told him please close the windows when you leave.
    12 And he left the windows open in my bedroom and
    13 bathroom. The wind blew hard, blew open the
    14 shutters which turned on the faucet and flooded
    15 the whole house. About two weeks before this home
    16 tour. (INAUDIBLE) coming out the garage doors and
    17 I said, (What in the world is that.̃ (INAUDIBLE).
    18 So Patsy went crazy trying to put that back
    19 together in two weeks.
    20 BRYAN MORGAN: Well take a break. It's about
    21 a quarter till eleven.
    22 (BREAK TAKEN)
    23 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) how JonBenet was exposed
    24 during that particular time of her exposure?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: The biggest exposure which, say
    0073
    1 in retrospect, would be how stupid could we have
    2 been. But when she was in a children's parade in
    3 Boulder, I think it was December 6th or early
    4 December. And the kids had done it before.
    5 Actually they did it the year before as well. It's
    6 a neat children's parade. All the kids, and kids
    7 love to be in parades, and it just seemed like a
    8 fun thing for the kids to do. There's people
    9 lining the streets up and down.
    10 LOU SMIT: Were you there for that?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: We were not; we were out of
    12 town. And Patsy's mother was there taking care of
    13 the kids, and they had prearranged for JonBenet to
    14 go with Pam Archuleta who was, I think at the
    15 time, (INAUDIBLE) United Way. So she drove her
    16 little red convertible and JonBenet and that other
    17 little girl sat up on the back.
    18 LOU SMIT: Who was the other girl?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Again, Patsy would know. I don't
    20 know her name. But she was one of the little
    21 pageant girls from Denver, I think. A dark haired
    22 girl. I have a picture of that.
    23 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Which I can get for you.
    25 LOU SMIT: I think I'd like a copy of that,
    0074
    1 if I could.
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. And the car might have
    3 had -- I think Patsy would normally put her name
    4 on the side of the car with a little magnetic-like
    5 pageant clothing. But basically I think it was
    6 like a red Christmassy velvet dress.
    7 LOU SMIT: And was that right downtown? Where
    8 was that at exactly?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it goes down, what is it
    10 Walnut, I think. It goes down to Walnut and then
    11 it kinds lines around and comes back. It's in the
    12 early evening.
    13 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) I've got my copy so,
    14 like I said --
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, what concerned me
    16 afterwards as we started looking into who could
    17 have possibly done this is a lot of, as I said
    18 earlier, there's a lot of good people and there's
    19 a lot freaks out there, and we were just kind of
    20 ignorant of that. And she was certainly exposed,
    21 occasionally exposed to the freaks.
    22 LOU SMIT: And I'm sure that still goes on
    23 today. (INAUDIBLE) so you never know (INAUDIBLE).
    24 Okay. Let's go back then to Christmas Eve. And you
    25 did mention then -- Oh, I want to ask one more
    0075
    1 thing.
    2 Pasta Jay's. You went there after what, after
    3 church?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: After church.
    5 LOU SMIT: And who went there?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy and I and Burke and
    7 JonBenet.
    8 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now you know Pasta Jay real
    9 well?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    11 LOU SMIT: Because you're business partners
    12 with him?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    14 LOU SMIT: Okay. A thought that crossed my
    15 mind, and I don't know if -- you used to go there
    16 quite a bit?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Lots, yeah.
    18 LOU SMIT: Okay. How often would you say you
    19 went there?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I'd go there at least twice
    21 a week, probably.
    22 LOU SMIT: And how often would your family go?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, at least once a week. At least.
    24 LOU SMIT: Just as an investigative thought, did
    25 Pasta Jay have anybody working for him that may
    0076
    1 trigger something in your mind? I know he has a
    2 lot of people working for him.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    4 LOU SMIT: And he would be the one probably
    5 to answer that.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I didn't really have any
    7 involvement in the day-to-day business. So I only
    8 knew the people that were out in front: the
    9 waitresses and so forth.
    10 LOU SMIT: You see, David, my thought process
    11 is maybe they met some kook cook or something or
    12 somebody that may have quite shortly after or
    13 exhibited a strange behavior. I don't know. I
    14 think some place where JonBenet would have been
    15 out with her family, sort of.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: She was there all the time.
    17 And really, she grew up at Pasta Jay's.
    18 (INAUDIBLE). The waitresses kind of adopted her as
    19 sort of a surrogate child.
    20 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) if Pasta Jay or anyone
    21 else that we would like to talk to if we have
    22 difficulties, please let us know.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.
    24 LOU SMIT: We can do everything we can to
    25 get anyone you want over. If we have any degree or
    0077
    1 sort of influence or friendship to talk to.
    2 Because a lot of times just going there,
    3 discussing the thing. Because I would like to talk
    4 to Pasta Jay. And we can do anything to facilitate
    5 that. I can do it, John can do it, we will do it.
    6 You see, this is one thing that's going to come up
    7 in this investigation too, is that somehow John
    8 Ramsey or someone else influences other people not
    9 to talk to the police. And what's your opinion on
    10 that?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know, we certainly
    12 influenced enough talking to the media. I don't
    13 know if we ever, I have never, I just don't
    14 recollect. I don't think I've ever said, (Don't
    15 talk to the police.̃
    16 LOU SMIT: I will absolutely guarantee that
    17 we have not, at all, and I know the people I'm
    18 working with. I know the investigators and
    19 lawyers, I've known them for 20 years, and I'll
    20 guarantee that we had discouraged no one. I do
    21 believe there are a lot of people who consider
    22 themselves of John Ramsey who then put off
    23 (INAUDIBLE) by the Boulder Police Department
    24 almost as we have and I'm quite sure, it would be
    25 my guess, that some may have been less than of
    0078
    1 forthcoming.
    2 I have asked Peter Hofstrom for months if he would
    3 give me a list of people that you all even talked
    4 to. That you, for some reason, have been unable
    5 to, if there was anything we can do with any of
    6 those, we would. And I don't understand this.
    7 Okay. Because that was one of the concerns with
    8 the grand jury is that people won't talk so. I'm
    9 sure that was a concern of Mike here. How do you
    10 get people to speak to you, to talk to you. You
    11 just can't go down there an say we want to talk to
    12 you and --
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we can. Because,
    14 as I said, we are coming into this as this is
    15 finally an objective investigation led by people
    16 who have a lot of experience in homicides. And if
    17 we could help, we will. I think Bryan said all
    18 right.
    19 LOU SMIT: Okay. I've covered those people.
    20 (INAUDIBLE)?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Just to backup one step with
    22 Pasta Jay. The only one thing I noticed that night
    23 that, when we were (INAUDIBLE) there was this very
    24 striking couple there with their daughter who just
    25 stood out in my mind. And I noticed her in church
    0079
    1 and he had very dark hair and she was very
    2 attractive. And I had never seen them in church.
    3 And they look kind of like they were from East.
    4 They were well cared for. They were dressed up.
    5 And they were in Pasta Jay's.
    6 LOU SMIT: Also.
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Also. And they kind of sat
    8 near us in the same room and then they moved to a
    9 table in the other room. And I thought, (Hmmmm.̃
    10 LOU SMIT: Is this the first time you thought
    11 of that?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I thought about it before.
    13 What was that, who was it? I mean it was kind of
    14 a, (Oh, I saw those people in church and it's a
    15 coincidence that they are in Pasta Jay's.̃ And
    16 later I thought, who were those people.
    17 LOU SMIT: Were they in a farther row or did
    18 anybody know them? Would that be in a signed
    19 register?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. (INAUDIBLE) it's just
    21 a piece of data.
    22 LOU SMIT: And you ever seen them since?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    24 LOU SMIT: So then Christmas Eve was at Pasta
    25 Jay's and then what happened? Just kind of take
    0080
    1 (INAUDIBLE)?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah. I remember dropping
    3 Patsy off; I couldn't find a parking place right
    4 away. So I parked and came around and they already
    5 had a table in the front room. I came in, we had
    6 dinner, the kids colored.
    7 I think we drove up to -- after we left there I
    8 think we drove to the Star, might have driven a
    9 little bit to look at the lights. JonBenet was
    10 miffed because we wouldn't let her walk up to the
    11 star because she had on her church dress and
    12 (INAUDIBLE) can't walk up there.
    13 LOU SMIT: Why did she have on her church
    14 dress (INAUDIBLE)?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: It was pretty good. She looked
    16 beautiful in church. It was a purple dress. And
    17 they wanted to get out of the car, I guess. After
    18 we looked at everything, we turned around and came
    19 home. The kids went to bed.
    20 LOU SMIT: At different times. Sometimes
    21 there are different times.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember exactly.
    23 But it was dark, I remember that. Because the
    24 lights were on and I remember the starlight. So if
    25 we went to five o'clock church, that would have
    0081
    1 been over at six or so. Then we went to dinner and
    2 (INAUDIBLE) somewhere around there.
    3 I don't specifically remember the kids going to
    4 bed, but I'm sure they went to bed fairly early
    5 because they wanted to get up at the crack of
    6 dawn. You know, the normal routine was (INAUDIBLE)
    7 was as soon as we thought the kids were asleep we
    8 got Christmas organized.
    9 LOU SMIT: And how would you do that? What
    10 would you do to organize Christmas?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we'd get up, haul the
    12 presents and put them under the tree. And a lot of
    13 the things were not wrapped so the kids had the
    14 surprise when they came down. And we put those out
    15 and we got the bike.
    16 LOU SMIT: Where would you keep these bikes?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: They were usually in the basement.
    18 That was Patsy's department. But I think she kept
    19 them in that cellar room. We usually kept all of
    20 Christmas stuff in there. Our Christmas trees and
    21 lights and that stuff, the trim.
    22 LOU SMIT: So you think that somebody would
    23 have gone down to get those? Did you go down
    24 there?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember specifically.
    0082
    1 I mean --
    2 LOU SMIT: Kind of think about that because
    3 that's kind of important. Who was in the basement
    4 close to the time of Christmas.
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well certainly we both would
    6 have been because Patsy did most of her wrapping
    7 down there. And that's where all the present stuff
    8 was stored. So in the process of getting ready for
    9 Christmas that would certainly have been down
    10 there and been in there.
    11 The only thing I remember is going over to Joe's
    12 and getting the bike out of his garage. And then
    13 after Patsy went upstairs, I had her bike in our
    14 garage and I got that out and put it by the tree.
    15 And then I went upstairs.
    16 LOU SMIT: So both bikes then were at the
    17 tree. You just took the one from Joe Barnhill and
    18 put it by the tree?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: And brought Patsy's in from
    20 the garage.
    21 LOU SMIT: This may not be exactly the
    22 time to interject, but did you get a painting for
    23 Christmas?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, that's right.
    25 LOU SMIT: Tell me about that.
    0083
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: It was a painting of some
    2 boats at anchor that Patsy had seen in, I think, a
    3 local art store. It was done by a local Boulder
    4 artist. And she had got me that for Christmas
    5 which were going to take it up to our cottage up
    6 in Michigan. It was behind the couch, I think.
    7 LOU SMIT: Yeah. I was just wondering
    8 where that would have been kept that evening.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That's where it was
    10 the next morning. I don't know how long it had
    11 been there.
    12 LOU SMIT: But it's small enough to hide
    13 behind the couch (INAUDIBLE)?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: It could have been behind --
    15 probably about that high and not quite as wide as
    16 that wall. So it was fairly large. And I recall
    17 that's where she had it; behind the couch. And
    18 then she got that out, that was when Christmas was
    19 all over.
    20 LOU SMIT: It was wrapped?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. The picture was wrapped.
    22 LOU SMIT: I was just wondering, like when you
    23 brought the bikes back in and Patsy was already in
    24 bed and then --
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    0084
    1 LOU SMIT: -- I don't know if you would
    2 have
    3 seen something like that?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't see it. So I knew
    5 it must have been there by the couch. That's my
    6 assumption.
    7 LOU SMIT: So you go to bed and you know
    8 the routine? (INAUDIBLE).
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. The kids, of course,
    10 were up early. I remember both of them running up
    11 to our bed early in the morning to get us up to go
    12 downstairs.
    13 LOU SMIT: Do you remember what time?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I'd be guessing. It could
    15 have been 5:30, it could have been 6:30. It was
    16 certainly early. Probably before daylight. I don't
    17 remember exactly, but they were always -- Burke
    18 came in one time at midnight to get us up one
    19 Christmas, it was time to get up and open
    20 presents. I looked at the clock, it was midnight.
    21 LOU SMIT: That was not this Christmas?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think it was, if I
    23 recall. And then I think I had them stay in the
    24 bedroom until I went downstairs and turned on the
    25 Christmas lights. It's always been kind of fun to
    0085
    1 make them wait a little bit.
    2 LOU SMIT: Real quickly, where did JonBenet
    3 sleep that previous night? And where did Burke
    4 sleep on Christmas eve?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think they slept in
    6 their own bedrooms. I don't specifically remember
    7 that. But. Anyway, they come down and we had
    8 Christmas and we usually have a breakfast, which
    9 we did I think that day afterwards.
    10 LOU SMIT: What did you have for breakfast?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: It might have been pancakes.
    12 Which is usually what we would eat. We would have
    13 a special breakfast, but I don't remember exactly.
    14 But we usually had a big breakfast.
    15 LOU SMIT: Anything else that goes along
    16 with the pancakes, or anything that you can think
    17 of? I know I'm trying to get specific.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember. I mean,
    19 it probably been like bacon and probably hash and
    20 that kind of things. But I don't remember for
    21 sure. But that's typically what we would have had
    22 for breakfast. Coffee, juice, orange juice. But
    23 that took up most of the morning, I guess. By the
    24 time we finished --
    25 LOU SMIT: How were you dressed when you
    0086
    1 were opening presents?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: The kids, JonBenet had on a
    3 little pink, like a long underwear bottoms and
    4 top. Burke, I don't remember, probably shirt
    5 pajamas. They didn't have time to get dressed.
    6 Probably Patsy and I had on pajamas and robe which
    7 we wore --
    8 LOU SMIT: So real casually dressed?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    10 LOU SMIT: Not like now or?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I'm sure we had on our
    12 pajamas and robes.
    13 LOU SMIT: Do you remember kind of what
    14 the kids got? What she got?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well JonBenet got a bike.
    16 I think Burke got a bike too. It seems like we had
    17 three bikes there. JonBenet, I think she got a
    18 little doll that was one of these look-a-like
    19 dolls that was supposed to look like her. I
    20 remember her looking at it and saying, this
    21 doesn't look like me.
    22 LOU SMIT: Was that made specially in
    23 a certain spot?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Supposedly, I guess. Yeah.
    25 That's a good question. Patsy would know. She got
    0087
    1 it. It's one of these -- it's supposed to be a
    2 doll that's made to look like the child.
    3 LOU SMIT: So it's a specially made item
    4 then from a certain kind of store.
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe so, yeah. Patsy,
    6 I'm sure, would know specifically where it came
    7 from, the details on that. But I seemed to
    8 remember her holding it up saying this doesn't
    9 look like me. And she didn't.
    10 LOU SMIT: And she held it up for you?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: She did.
    12 LOU SMIT: And can you think of anything else?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: They always get so much stuff. I
    14 guess I don't remember. It's always kind of a
    15 little bit overloaded with so many things. I
    16 remember she did a little (INAUDIBLE) that night
    17 and a little jewelry maker wrapped up in little
    18 strips of paper and little beads. I remember
    19 specifically playing that with her that evening,
    20 Christmas day evening.
    21 LOU SMIT: Now let's talk about Christmas day
    22 a little bit more. Now, you were going to be
    23 leaving for Charlevoix.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    25 LOU SMIT: And tell us a little bit about
    0088
    1 the arrangements you were making then?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the plan was to leave
    3 the morning of the 26th. I had an airplane at the
    4 time that was on charter through a charter company
    5 run by Mike Archuleta, who is also a friend;
    6 became a friend. Mike was going to fly us that
    7 morning of the 26th from Jeffco to Minneapolis. We
    8 were going to get into Minneapolis before 11 and
    9 my older kids were going to arrive from Atlanta.
    10 From Atlanta to Minneapolis we were going to pick
    11 them up and then go on to Charlevoix.
    12 And we did it that way because Charlevoix was a
    13 difficult place to get to with airlines. And we
    14 were flying from Jeffco to Charlevoix, you fly
    15 literally almost fly over Minneapolis. So that
    16 would be real easy for us to stop in Minneapolis
    17 and pick them up. And they had really inexpensive
    18 tickets to get there on the airlines. So that was
    19 the plan.
    20 They we were going to stay there for I think it
    21 was till Friday. I forget what day the 26th was.
    22 (INAUDIBLE) but we were going to stay for a couple
    23 days and come back to Boulder around Friday. Then
    24 I think the next morning on Saturday, we were
    25 going to leave for this Big Red Boat trip with
    0089
    1 just JonBenet, Burke and Patsy and me. And that
    2 was a package deal. We had tickets on TWA and that
    3 was all kind of pretty pre-laid out for us.
    4 So that was the plan. I had gone out to the
    5 airport Christmas day to kind of tinker with
    6 airplane and load some presents and kind of get it
    7 pre-loaded because we're going to leave early in
    8 the morning. We had to be there, I wanted to be
    9 there when the kids arrive in Minneapolis.
    10 LOU SMIT: What kinds of presents did you
    11 bring there (INAUDIBLE)?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we were going to have
    13 a kind of second Christmas up in Charlevoix for
    14 the big kids. And so we had their presents. We had
    15 a few little extra presents for Burke and JonBenet
    16 so they wouldn't feel left out.
    17 So I guess I kind of fussed around that for a few
    18 hours and then I came home.
    19 LOU SMIT: Where were those presents kept?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there were some presents
    21 in a little, what we call, the butler's kitchen,
    22 but it was a lower level kitchen. There were some
    23 presents some presents down there. In fact, I
    24 think I wrapped some Christmas day to take to the
    25 airplane to get ready for the next day. I think
    0090
    1 those were there.
    2 LOU SMIT: So when you wrapped them, the
    3 items, you wrapped them, where would you get the
    4 wrapping paper and all the things?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I could have either
    6 gotten it from there or down in the basement.
    7 Patsy had by the (INAUDIBLE) a bunch of wrapping
    8 paper and stuff, and I think there was some there
    9 in the butler's kitchen area as well. I might have
    10 even went downstairs to get the paper and stuff. I
    11 don't remember. That's where a lot of them would
    12 have been.
    13 LOU SMIT: I think what I'm trying to get
    14 at is, did you go into the wine cellar at that
    15 time in order to get any of these items?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. It wouldn't
    17 have been out of the question or impossible.
    18 LOU SMIT: Try to think about that a little
    19 bit. It's just one of those things that we're
    20 trying to determine who all would have gone in
    21 there into that room at a specific time. That's
    22 whey we have to find that out. That's why
    23 specifically if you can think about it. I know to
    24 sequence your memory is kind of hard. But it's one
    25 of those things that I figure you can think about
    0091
    1 a little bit.
    2 Just to back up just a little bit. After the
    3 children opened their gifts, do you know what they
    4 did that day, your children?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well they played around the
    6 house. There were some kids in and out, I think.
    7 Because I wasn't there for several hours.
    8 LOU SMIT: And where were these kids from?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Only, I think based -- well
    10 I'm pretty sure I saw Evan and Kile, I forget
    11 their last name.
    12 LOU SMIT: Coby?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Coby. They were there. I don't
    14 remember specifically knowing that. But I think
    15 Patsy, I heard her saying neighbors and girls from
    16 up the street.
    17 LOU SMIT: Do you know their names?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. I don't.
    19 LOU SMIT: We were trying to determine who
    20 all JonBenet or Burke had had any contact. And
    21 later on we'll kind of get into those reasons. But
    22 right now we have to find out any contact with the
    23 children.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I know. Well, there were
    25 a number of kids there that day. Our house was
    0092
    1 always kind of, kids were in and out of there all
    2 the time and it was usually the Coby boys. There
    3 was a family that lived not immediately next door,
    4 but the house over, that had moved in recently
    5 after the Whites had left the house. I didn't know
    6 them. I think there were a couple of girls in the
    7 house that had come down to play.
    8 LOU SMIT: How about the children like to
    9 the south of you?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Let's see, south. That's --
    11 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE).
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It's possible. But I don't
    13 remember seeing them there. But they were there
    14 occasionally. The boy, the son, this is on the
    15 house next to us, towards the baseline. Their son,
    16 who seemed like a very nice kid, was always
    17 attentive to JonBenet in a nice way; a brotherly
    18 way, I thought.
    19 LOU SMIT: Do you know his name?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't.
    21 LOU SMIT: Is it Luke?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Luke? That rings a bell, yeah.
    23 That's right.
    24 LOU SMIT: Do you know of anybody from the
    25 family who always lived next door to the north?
    0093
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Not a lot. They had a child and
    2 they were divorced after that. He had children
    3 from another marriage; two boys, I think. All nice
    4 kids.
    5 LOU SMIT: And were they around them that day?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember for sure. Patsy
    7 probably would remember that.
    8 LOU SMIT: See, we're trying to determine
    9 the gap of anybody who could have contact, and
    10 usually the neighbors and people close and we
    11 would just like to have their names.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Again, Patsy would have more
    13 information on that.
    14 LOU SMIT: Or maybe Burke would have some
    15 information on that, I'm not sure. (INAUDIBLE).
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a little girl, I
    17 think, that lived diagonally across the street
    18 that --
    19 LOU SMIT: Which way was that?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: This would have been south
    21 and east, next to the Barnhills, south of the
    22 Barnhills.
    23 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was a single mother
    25 that rented that house. And I think she had a
    0094
    1 daughter or a son, was that a son. Maybe it was a
    2 son. I don't remember. It might have been a boy.
    3 They moved. They would come over occasionally but
    4 not often.
    5 LOU SMIT: What I'm going to do, I'm going
    6 to show you a small diagram. I might have a bigger
    7 diagram which I'm going to bring in after a while
    8 when we get into the neighbors.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.
    10 LOU SMIT: This is a small diagram that we
    11 have and it just kind of shows the relationship of
    12 houses in the area. It's not to scale or anything.
    13 We'd like to just look at it. This is your home,
    14 755, and across the street is the Barnhills. And
    15 which address were you talking about about the
    16 other little girl.
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have been this one,
    18 738.
    19 LOU SMIT: 738?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I think it was a boy.
    21 They had a child. She had a child. I think it was
    22 a little boy. But that's the house I was talking
    23 about.
    24 LOU SMIT: Now you say he may have come over?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't know that he did
    0095
    1 that day. But I said he's come over once in a
    2 while.
    3 LOU SMIT: Okay, we're still talking
    4 Christmas day. And what time do you think you left
    5 for the airport?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was after breakfast. You
    7 know, 11, 12, probably somewhere there. I spent
    8 some time, it was in the Steven's Aviation hangar.
    9 There were a couple of mechanics there and running
    10 boys. But the place was pretty well closed down.
    11 But I spent some time cleaning it, having it
    12 ready.
    13 LOU SMIT: Anybody that you talked to or anything?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I spoke to one of the line guys.
    15 LOU SMIT: You know his name?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. He was just one of the
    17 guys that was there on Christmas day. But the
    18 airplane was in their hangar, in the maintenance
    19 hangar. Which is not normally where it's kept. But
    20 it was there that day. And I just puttered around
    21 for a few hours actually. Probably got home about
    22 threeish, probably.
    23 LOU SMIT: Did you have a run-in with somebody
    24 at the airport over the parking of the plane, that
    25 I remember reading someplace; some guy that you
    0096
    1 had a run-in with at the airport? Could you just
    2 think of that for a little bit?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) I don't remember
    4 that now.
    5 LOU SMIT: I remember something (INAUDIBLE).
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't specifically remember
    7 anything like that.
    8 LOU SMIT: So got home at about three?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    10 LOU SMIT: Now when you walk in right at
    11 about at that time, what do you remember when you
    12 come into the house? What do you remember in
    13 regards to the children and in regards to Patsy?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: It seems like I remember there
    15 were some kids around and kids were playing. We
    16 were going to get ready to go to the Whites.
    17 LOU SMIT: And the other kids?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember that, I think, yeah.
    19 It seems like there were some kids around. Kids
    20 were hanging around the house.
    21 LOU SMIT: And you said you were getting ready
    22 to go to the Whites?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    24 LOU SMIT: Now you'd been up all day and then
    25 towards noon. Now did anybody have anything to eat
    0097
    1 prior to going to the Whites?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think I did have any
    3 lunch. It would have been normal for the kids to
    4 have some lunch. But, again, Patsy would know
    5 that.
    6 LOU SMIT: How about before you went to Whites
    7 later that day?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge. Then again,
    9 they're always eating. But we didn't specifically
    10 sit down and have any kind of meal or a sandwich
    11 or anything before leaving.
    12 LOU SMIT: You don't remember that?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    14 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now, I'm sure you're getting
    15 ready to go and how did that normally work? Did
    16 you get ready to go out during that particular
    17 night specifically, if you can remember just how
    18 people had gotten ready and maybe how they were
    19 dressed? You might remember how you were dressed.
    20 But (INAUDIBLE)?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well usually Patsy gets the
    22 kids ready before we go out. I get ready and it's
    23 always an effort to get the kids ready because
    24 they wanted to get dressed up. I think it was she
    25 got them dressed up to go over for Christmas
    0098
    1 dinner. And I don't remember specifically that
    2 process, but that's what we normally or usually
    3 do.
    4 LOU SMIT: Do you normally take a shower
    5 when you're (INAUDIBLE)?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I always take a shower in
    7 the morning when I get up. (INAUDIBLE) I feel like
    8 a needed a shower, I'll take one in the afternoon.
    9 I don't remember taking a shower. Could be, but I
    10 remember doing that. We were just going to go have
    11 a nice family Christmas dinner.
    12 LOU SMIT: Now, when you go up to the Whites,
    13 what time do you think it was that you left your
    14 house?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it seemed like it was
    16 4:30, 5:00, somewhere in that range, as I recall.
    17 It was an early dinner. The kids wanted to play
    18 together.
    19 LOU SMIT: And when you say (together̃, who
    20 is that?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: With Fleet, Junior, Daphne White.
    22 And Fleet and Burke were buddies, and Daphne and
    23 JonBenet were buddies. That was a nice setup.
    24 LOU SMIT: Now later on the evening, I know
    25 you dropped some presents off at different places.
    0099
    1 And I want to go back to the presents a little bit
    2 again. Someone would have had to load them into
    3 the car. Do your remember anything about that?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't. I don't remember
    5 loading anything.
    6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Which car did you take?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: We took Patsy's white Jaguar.
    8 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now I noticed you had another
    9 vehicle in the garage. What was that?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: It should have been a black
    11 Grand Cherokee.
    12 LOU SMIT: And whose was that?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: That was mine.
    14 LOU SMIT: Did you normally use that for work?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I drove it -- unless the weather
    16 was bad, and then we swapped.
    17 LOU SMIT: Did you drive it to the airport
    18 that day?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I sure did. Yeah. I did.
    20 LOU SMIT: Okay. You're at the White's house.
    21 Remember what you did there, if you can.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we came in. They had a
    23 lot
    24 of their extended family there, and their parents,
    25 I think, Priscilla's parents were there. Her
    0100
    1 sister and brother-in-law. Her sister's daughter
    2 and her husband. I think there was a third sister
    3 there with a boyfriend. A collection.
    4 They had hors d'oeuvres and they made a special
    5 thing about cracked crab, that's some kind of
    6 family tradition that they always had cracked crab
    7 at their Christmas day dinner as an appetizer.
    8 They had that. They had some little gifts for us.
    9 They had given me some napkins for my boat that
    10 had the boat name on them. I think that's where
    11 JonBenet got that thing that makes the beads.
    12 Because we played with that that evening on the
    13 floor. I remember that. Pete and I were making
    14 these little beads. He was doing it with Daphne
    15 and I was doing it with JonBenet.
    16 Priscilla gave the kids that at that party. But
    17 then they had a typical, you know, in the kitchen
    18 cooking the dinner, snacking on hors d'oeuvres
    19 kind of evening. And then they had dinner. They
    20 had the table set up in the dining room and they
    21 had two tables down in the living room and
    22 everybody kind of sat down to eat.
    23 LOU SMIT: I want you to really specifically
    24 to think on what you ate and how things were laid
    25 out there.
    0101
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
    2 LOU SMIT: Very much so. I would like to
    3 just know, perhaps, what you ate or whether the
    4 children ate or if it was different or how things
    5 were set up.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, all I can specifically
    7 remember was the cracked crab. I think they had a
    8 turkey dinner. But I think she made, she always
    9 makes these little hot dogs with barbecue sauce
    10 that the kids love. I remember her specifically,
    11 Priscilla coming over this big plate of cracked
    12 plate making little plates, and I wanted to save
    13 these out for JonBenet and she took them out and
    14 put them in the plate.
    15 LOU SMIT: What were they?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was the cracked
    17 crab.
    18 MIKE KANE: What is cracked crab? I'm from
    19 the east. I don't know --
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: She doesn't take all of it.
    21 It's like pieces of crab that are cut up. They're
    22 cold.
    23 MIKE KANE: They're real crab?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. They're boiled like.
    25 They're already broken. They're like just chunks
    0102
    1 of, like somebody has already broken up the legs
    2 and I guess it was like king crab that was
    3 partially open.
    4 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: But she specifically, I
    6 just remember her making little plates going down
    7 the line. Which, in retrospect, seems a little
    8 strange.
    9 LOU SMIT: Did JonBenet like that?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember if she ate it,
    11 but, yeah, she would have liked it.
    12 LOU SMIT: Do you remember any fruit like
    13 apples, oranges or anything like tat?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not specifically. I know we've
    15 been asked indirectly a lot about pineapple
    16 rounds.
    17 LOU SMIT: I was going to get around to that.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It wouldn't have been
    19 unusual. That would have certainly fit in with the
    20 dinner, but I don't specifically remember being
    21 there. But I can tell you there was some finger
    22 foods. There were probably carrots and celery and
    23 stuff like that.
    24 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: They usually had peanuts around.
    0103
    1 I don't remember specifically having peanuts, but
    2 that would have been very normal.
    3 LOU SMIT: Do you know what Burke was
    4 doing at that time?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think the kids were just
    6 kind off playing. I think they were upstairs.
    7 Everybody just disappeared upstairs. (INAUDIBLE).
    8 After dinner I think that's when we sat down and
    9 played with the little beads, the bead machine.
    10 They were pretty much playing with their toys.
    11 LOU SMIT: What time did you get started
    12 dinner and what time did it end? I mean that's
    13 hard to say? Was it an early dinner?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I'd guess; it purely a guess,
    15 but it seemed like it was sevenish probably that
    16 we sat down to eat. Cause we were there for a
    17 little while before we were actually ate. Because
    18 they were preparing the dinner and we had a glass
    19 of wine and the hors d'oeuvres. So maybe probably
    20 sevenish, 7:30 in the evening we sat down to eat.
    21 LOU SMIT: You say you had a glass of wine.
    22 Is that normal for you when you went there? I
    23 don't mean (INAUDIBLE) alcohol or anything like
    24 that.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I'd have of wine and then
    0104
    1 dinner, two maybe. I usually don't drink beer
    2 unless it's just to be sociable. But wine
    3 occasionally.
    4 LOU SMIT: And how much would you say you
    5 had that night?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't remember, but
    7 certainly not more than two glasses, and only if
    8 like the glass is not very full. I like to sip on
    9 it. I might have two glasses.
    10 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: She wasn't -- she might have
    12 had a glass served to her. Whether she drank any
    13 at all of it. It would have been unusual for her
    14 to drink much alcohol.
    15 LOU SMIT: Why?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: She just got real focused
    17 on her health, frankly. You know, dying from
    18 cancer. And she wasn't into wine to start with.
    19 She never drank much.
    20 LOU SMIT: Anybody else at the party drank
    21 wine or more (INAUDIBLE)?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I remember. It was
    23 just a nice quiet family party.
    24 LOU SMIT: What time then did you leave the
    25 White's party?
    0105
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we left at about between
    2 8:30 and 9:00. Because I remember trying to get
    3 Burke into bed at a reasonable hour when we went
    4 home.
    5 LOU SMIT: How far is the Whites from where
    6 you live? I know that there is that little time
    7 period in there?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we went from the Whites
    9 to the Walkers to drop off a gift.
    10 LOU SMIT: Were they labeled in this diagram?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. (INAUDIBLE).
    12 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) would the drive have
    13 been from the Whites there?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, six minutes, five minutes.
    15 It's not really far.
    16 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably even less. I think
    18 the kids and I stayed in the car and Patsy went
    19 out to the door. It didn't take very long. Ten
    20 minutes maybe.
    21 LOU SMIT: Now this may not seem important
    22 or anything, the dynamics of things back at that
    23 time. You leave the Whites, the children are going
    24 to get in the car. Is JonBenet walking with
    25 anybody? I mean, describe like how they get in and
    0106
    1 where they go or whatever?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I don't remember
    3 specifically getting in. But I know she was, I
    4 mean, it's always a challenge to get them rounded
    5 up and with all her toys and get them detached
    6 from what they're doing and haul them away.
    7 Getting thing out to the car and off we went.
    8 LOU SMIT: Any particular seat arrangement?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well JonBenet sat behind me,
    10 as the driver. Burke sat to her on the other side
    11 of the backseat. Patsy was in the passenger seat
    12 in the front.
    13 LOU SMIT: Do you remember how JonBenet was
    14 dressed?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: She had on a little top with a
    16 silver star on it and a black pair of pants. I
    17 don't remember if she had color -- she probably
    18 did. I don't remember what color it was.
    19 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy? How was she
    20 dressed?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: You know I don't remember other
    22 than I've looked at pictures of their party and
    23 that's my memory. But I couldn't have told you
    24 without looking at the pictures.
    25 LOU SMIT: And what did the pictures show?
    0107
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think in the pictures she
    2 had
    3 like a red Christmas sweater on.
    4 LOU SMIT: These pictures that you have of
    5 the party, are these pictures that the police got
    6 or were these extra pictures?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I think they are the ones
    8 that the police got. I think they were taken at
    9 the White's. I don't think we took any pictures.
    10 LOU SMIT: Okay. Did anybody take any pictures
    11 that you know that were at the party?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I remember.
    13 LOU SMIT: Okay. So you drive to the Walkers,
    14 that's the first one. And you were driving, do you
    15 remember what the road or weather conditions were
    16 like that night?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe there was no weather
    18 because I would've have been concerned because I
    19 knew we were flying out the next morning. So I
    20 know I wasn't aware of any weather. It wasn't
    21 snowing. It was dry. I don't think the drive was
    22 bad.
    23 LOU SMIT: Did you file a flight plan?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Mike would have done it, yeah.
    25 LOU SMIT: did you talk about weather or
    0108
    1 anything?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I always watch the weather
    3 channels for the day before we go anywhere just to
    4 get a feel for the flow of things. I don't
    5 remember that I was particularly concerned about
    6 the weather.
    7 LOU SMIT: So where did you pull into then
    8 at the Walkers?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I pulled into the
    10 driveway. And it seems like that when Patsy, as I
    11 recall, she went in and she stayed a little while
    12 like five minutes.
    13 LOU SMIT: And she went in to do something?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Just to give the Walkers their
    15 gifts.
    16 LOU SMIT: Do you know what that gift was?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't at the time. I think
    18 it was perfume or something like that. I remember
    19 her saying, but I didn't at the time. I thought it
    20 was a food (INAUDIBLE) or something like that. And
    21 she came back out and we went to the Stines and
    22 she had a gift for them.
    23 LOU SMIT: Now did you and Burke and JonBenet
    24 stay in the car, do you remember?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.
    0109
    1 LOU SMIT: You stayed in the car at the Walkers?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, the Walkers, yeah. I think we
    3 all three stayed in the car.
    4 LOU SMIT: And then you go to the Stines?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    6 LOU SMIT: How far a drive is the Stines?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Two minutes, three minutes.
    8 Pulled up out the front of their house. Patsy
    9 certainly went in, I don't think I did. I don't
    10 remember if Burke did or not. I don't think
    11 JonBenet did. But I don't remember for sure.
    12 It wouldn't have been unusual for Burke to go in
    13 because that was his buddy, Doug.
    14 LOU SMIT: Did you have a gift for Doug?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I know Patsy
    16 probably, but I don't recall. And then we debated,
    17 we had a gift for the Fernies and we debated
    18 whether we should go over there. But that's
    19 probably 15 minutes away and we wanted to get home
    20 and to bed. And we didn't know what time we would
    21 get back. So we left the Stines and drove home.
    22 LOU SMIT: So your concern then was mainly you
    23 didn't want to spend that extra time (INAUDIBLE).
    24 Why?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was 15 minutes over
    0110
    1 there and both the kids might want to go in and it
    2 would have been half an hour, 45 minutes before we
    3 went home. And we had to get up early next
    4 morning. They were tired. They had been up all
    5 day. So we said, well, we'd do that when we got
    6 back.
    7 LOU SMIT: So when you leave the Steins,
    8 Patsy returns or whatever and that's just a short
    9 distance to your house, I imagine. What? Just a
    10 couple of minutes? And was Burke asleep at this
    11 time (INAUDIBLE)?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: JonBenet, when we pulled into
    13 the drive, she was sound asleep because I remember
    14 getting her out of the car and she was just out.
    15 LOU SMIT: Let's stop here.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.
    17 LOU SMIT: Because I don't want to get into
    18 another area before noon. And I'd like to go over
    19 these notes a little bit. There's a few think that
    20 I think and we can just start again.
    21 (BREAK TAKEN)
    22 LOU SMIT: Okay. The time now is approximately
    23 five minutes till one. Still on Tuesday the 23rd
    24 of June, 1998. And present in the room again is
    25 everybody that was here before. And we did break
    0111
    1 for lunch.
    2 I think when we left off, John, was when you were
    3 driving into the garage at home. This would have
    4 been during the evening of Christmas of 1996. so
    5 later on what I'm going to have you do is draw on
    6 the diagram where you went in the house and
    7 everything. But for now let's just talk about it,
    8 okay. And kind of walk through it. And I know this
    9 is going to probably get harder as it goes, but
    10 we'll get through this at some point.
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    12 LOU SMIT: Now you go home after leaving the
    13 Stines. To your knowledge JonBenet is asleep in
    14 the backseat and she's directly behind you?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    16 LOU SMIT: You pull into the garage. And just
    17 let me, we're kind of going slower through this.
    18 How do you get into the garage? I mean, does it --
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: We have a garage opener in the
    20 car and, as I recall, I think I parked on the
    21 right side of the garage. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it
    22 was the right side. And the kind of routine was
    23 that I took JonBenet out and Patsy took care of
    24 Burke. But JonBenet was sound asleep. In fact, I
    25 was surprised at how she was because I picked her
    0112
    1 up or tried to pick her up and she was just really
    2 out. Because I kind of struggled a little bit to
    3 get her in my arms.
    4 LOU SMIT: Is that a two-door or four-door
    5 car?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Four-door.
    7 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: And I just remember thinking,
    9 (Boy, she is really out.̃ Because I sort of
    10 struggled a little bit. It wasn't graceful getting
    11 her out, and yet she didn't wake up. And carrying
    12 her up stairs, up the back stairs and lay her on
    13 the bed. I don't remember --
    14 LOU SMIT: Well let's go through that slowly.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: All right.
    16 LOU SMIT: In other words, you had her in your
    17 arms? Now do you have a door between the kitchen
    18 and the garage there?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    20 LOU SMIT: Did you precede Patsy or did you --
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Gee, I don't remember. That door
    22 is normally unlocked because we lock the garage
    23 door and then we don't lock that door. And it's
    24 kind of, as I recall, it's kind of one of these
    25 latch handles so it's easy to open, I think. I
    0113
    1 don't remember who went in first.
    2 I had JonBenet in my arms. Her head was in this
    3 arm, and we went in the backdoor?
    4 LOU SMIT: In the (INAUDIBLE) room?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: To the (INAUDIBLE) and up the
    6 little spiral staircase.
    7 LOU SMIT: Where you carried her in your arms
    8 up the spiral staircase?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) and --
    10 LOU SMIT: Does the garage door close
    11 automatically?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    13 LOU SMIT: Or was it open for a little while?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it doesn't close automatically.
    15 There's a button by the door. Normal practice
    16 would have been to close it from the inside at
    17 some point.
    18 LOU SMIT: Think about this. You had her in
    19 your arms (INAUDIBLE)?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember closing the
    21 door myself. I only remember carrying her.
    22 LOU SMIT: Think about that at some point,
    23 okay? Now you do remember going up the spiral
    24 staircase?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.
    0114
    1 MIKE KANE: In terms of the button on the
    2 garage door, is it on the interior of the garage
    3 or the interior of the house?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it's on the interior
    5 of the house.
    6 MIKE KANE: So you can be fully in the house
    7 before you push that button?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe so, as I recall,
    9 yeah.
    10 So, anyway, I took her upstairs, laid her on the
    11 bed. Usually what I would do, and I remember
    12 either taking her shoes off or taking her coat
    13 off, kind of getting her sort of started and then
    14 Patsy took over getting her into bed. I went down
    15 stairs --
    16 LOU SMIT: How did you get downstairs?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably the back stairway,
    18 which is normally how I would have gone up and
    19 down. But I'm not really sure.
    20 LOU SMIT: But that's from --
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I started to get Burke
    22 into bed; get him ready. And he was sitting in the
    23 living room working on a toy, an assembly little
    24 toy he got for Christmas. And I could see that I
    25 was going to get him to go easy. So I sat down and
    0115
    1 helped him put it together to try to expedite the
    2 process. So we did that together and it took us
    3 ten or twenty minutes, I guess. And then he went
    4 up to bed. And then we went up to bed. And I think
    5 we used the front stairs (INAUDIBLE).
    6 LOU SMIT: And what time was it that you got
    7 (INAUDIBLE)?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: It was probably nineish, 9:15
    9 maybe. (INAUDIBLE).
    10 LOU SMIT: So you looked for Burke?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Then I got Burke on his
    12 way to bed. I guess I must have gotten him for
    13 bed, but I don't remember now for sure. But he got
    14 in bed, and by the time I got to bed I think Patsy
    15 had already been.
    16 LOU SMIT: You just go right directly from
    17 Burke and came upstairs? Is that what your saying?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I believe so.
    19 LOU SMIT: And what is your routine then?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I just got ready for bed:
    21 brushed my teeth probably. I did take a Melatonin
    22 that night.
    23 LOU SMIT: Where do you keep that?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Just in my medicine or in my
    25 sink or in the drawer because I wanted to get to
    0116
    1 sleep right away, to sleep well, because I knew I
    2 had to get up the next morning early. And I might
    3 have read for a few minutes; I think I did. It was
    4 probably tenish or something in that range.
    5 LOU SMIT: Okay. So now did Patsy precede you
    6 into bed or you did say that she went to bed. Do
    7 you remember saying anything important?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Important? I know that she might
    9 have been asleep. I don't remember saying
    10 anything. Patsy is called the sleep queen when she
    11 goes to sleep. When she goes to sleep, she gets in
    12 bed and she goes to sleep.
    13 LOU SMIT: When you normally go to bed, and
    14 especially that night, everybody has a way of
    15 getting rid of the (INAUDIBLE) they got on
    16 (INAUDIBLE). What is your habit of doing that? I
    17 mean, what do you remember doing that night?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Normally, and I don't mean
    19 specifically, normally I would have changed in the
    20 bathroom. Sometimes I would hang the clothes on
    21 the hook on the back of the door. We had the
    22 laundry chute. If the stuff was dirty I would
    23 typically take it to the laundry chute.
    24 LOU SMIT: Can you think of anything
    25 specifically (INAUDIBLE)?
    0117
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I really don't remember.
    2 LOU SMIT: No. Did either you or Patsy feed
    3 JonBenet anything before you went to bed?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    5 LOU SMIT: An you are positive?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I am positive. She was sound
    7 asleep. And I certainly didn't and just based on
    8 discussions afterward, and then Patsy said she did
    9 not.
    10 LOU SMIT: What does Patsy normally do with
    11 her clothing when she gets into bed?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Where it lands is where it
    13 stays.
    14 LOU SMIT: Oh, I see.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: She usually changes in the
    16 bathroom so it's usually draped over the tub and
    17 off to bed.
    18 LOU SMIT: Now do you put on pajamas (INAUDIBLE)?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually. Usually. I don't remember
    20 now what I had on, but yeah, usually I wear some
    21 kind of pajamas, yeah.
    22 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    24 LOU SMIT: She wears pajamas also?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    0118
    1 LOU SMIT: Normally all to bed?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: To bed.
    3 LOU SMIT: And you said the normal procedure
    4 is to brush your teeth and everything?
    5 (INAUDIBLE).
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't that night. No.
    7 LOU SMIT: Now let's think throughout the
    8 night. I know you probably thought that a 100
    9 times. Did you hear anything throughout the night?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not a thing.
    11 LOU SMIT: Let's talk about the sounds in your
    12 house. Have you ever been wakened by your children
    13 before at night?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall I ever have been.
    15 They would sometimes they would come in the bed
    16 with us. But I don't remember ever being awakened
    17 by a noise or (INAUDIBLE).
    18 LOU SMIT: Would either JonBenet or would
    19 Burke ever cry out in their sleep if they had bad
    20 dreams?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember Burke used to talk
    22 in his sleep. But crying out, no, I don't remember
    23 that.
    24 LOU SMIT: Could you ever hear Burke talk
    25 in
    0119
    1 his sleep?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember, no.
    3 LOU SMIT: In Burke's room, does he have an
    4 aquarium?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.
    6 LOU SMIT: Can you describe any noises that
    7 that makes?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: It just has a normal pump. It
    9 was (INAUDIBLE), it's not particularly noisy.
    10 LOU SMIT: How about, in almost every house,
    11 especially my house, did you ever hear noises
    12 associated with (INAUDIBLE) home noises? Can you
    13 remember anything, maybe not that particular night
    14 but any other night?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I really can't. I mean we hear
    16 noises from -- when we hear noises, it was
    17 typically from outdoors from students.
    18 LOU SMIT: You can hear that from your room?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: We always slept with the windows
    20 open.
    21 LOU SMIT: How did you sleep that night with
    22 your windows open?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably cracked. I always
    24 liked to have the window open. But it was winter
    25 night so we cracked it probably.
    0120
    1 LOU SMIT: Where are the windows located
    2 in your room?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: This is the window I usually
    4 open. This is the window to (INAUDIBLE). They're
    5 crank out windows. They were new windows. If I
    6 would have followed my normal procedure, I would
    7 have cracked that open a little bit. In the
    8 summertime, we would have them open.
    9 The only time remember being awakened is from
    10 student noises or something going on in the
    11 street.
    12 LOU SMIT: Your neighborhood itself, is it
    13 normally quiet?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: It's, except for the students,
    15 well I presume they're students, and you can hear
    16 some carrying on late at night from time to time,
    17 usually on the weekends.
    18 LOU SMIT: Now, you said you had taken that
    19 Melatonin, how many tablets did you take or do you
    20 remember that?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember exactly.
    22 Probably I think one. It's a guess.
    23 LOU SMIT: Were you under any other medication
    24 at that time at all that you can think of
    25 (INAUDIBLE)?
    0121
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: No. The only medication I took
    2 from time to time was for allergies. I don't
    3 recall. I don't think I was on any allergy
    4 medication.
    5 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy? Like Patsy, before
    6 she went to bed would she ever take any medicine?
    7 Would she have any medicine?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: She had some vitamins and things
    9 like that that she took. I don't think that she
    10 had any medical medicine.
    11 LOU SMIT: No prescription drugs?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't believe so.
    13 LOU SMIT: Not even for the cancer?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. I think she
    15 was pretty much off all medication once they got
    16 into the natural vitamins and things like that.
    17 She probably took those.
    18 LOU SMIT: How about in your medicine
    19 cabinets? Do you have any medicine in them?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yes. There were lots and
    21 lots of medicine.
    22 LOU SMIT: Can you name one of them?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, there was -- I would be
    24 guessing. I'm sure there were some antibiotics
    25 from just her dad. Linda, my daughter, whose a
    0122
    1 nurse came in once, actually before that, and she
    2 went through all our medicine cabinets and cleaned
    3 out all the old prescriptions and drugs that
    4 shouldn't be there. I know she through out a lot
    5 of stuff that just kind of accumulated.
    6 LOU SMIT: Do you remember what kind of shoes
    7 you were wearing that night especially?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't for sure. I looked at
    9 some of the pictures for them to show me shoes.
    10 But they probably would have been shoes
    11 (INAUDIBLE) pairs of shoes. But I've had these for
    12 a long time. If they were loafers, I'm sure.
    13 LOU SMIT: Is that the type you normally wear?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably would have worn those for
    15 that kind of occasion. I have some kind of like
    16 dress boots, but there wasn't any -- I don't
    17 recall.
    18 LOU SMIT: When you came into the garage that
    19 night, do you recall the conditions, the weather
    20 conditions and the road conditions that may --
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, the drive way was totally
    22 clear. I remember that because (INAUDIBLE). I mean
    23 there was nothing going on weather wise, because I
    24 would have noticed that because we were leaving in
    25 the morning. So there was nothing going on weather
    0123
    1 wise when we came in. It didn't give me any cause
    2 to worry what the weather was going to be like.
    3 LOU SMIT: Do you call that it snowed or
    4 rained?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: There was no snow at all when
    6 we came in. I got up the next morning and looked
    7 out. The sky was sort of breaking up. It look like
    8 some evidence of some snow in the trees, so it had
    9 snowed a little bit. But I remember thinking that
    10 it was no big deal.
    11 LOU SMIT: Where did you look out at that
    12 time?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm pretty sure it was out
    14 of my windows in the dressing area.
    15 LOU SMIT: If you could show us that in the
    16 diagram here?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Just study that. I remember
    18 thinking that there was no concern.
    19 LOU SMIT: Do you remember that there could
    20 have been a light sprinkling of snow?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a little snow in some
    22 trees (INAUDIBLE).
    23 LOU SMIT: Would that mean there was possible
    24 snow in the driveway area (INAUDIBLE).
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't look specifically.
    0124
    1 But I would have if it had been enough snow if I
    2 would have been concerned about the runway, for
    3 example, it would have caused me to think, (Oh
    4 oh.̃ All I remember thinking is (INAUDIBLE) it's
    5 not going to be a problem.
    6 LOU SMIT: And this here, what is your normal
    7 procedure for making your bed or for your bedding
    8 at night? What is your normal procedure?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually I'll get up. Eighty
    10 percent of the time I'll get up before Patsy does.
    11 Probably make my half of the whole thing most of
    12 the time.
    13 LOU SMIT: Is that the majority of the time?
    14 Do you remember what you did that 26th?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think we made the bed
    16 because I got up before Patsy. I woke up before
    17 the alarm went off and she got up after that.
    18 LOU SMIT: How (INAUDIBLE) or the previous day?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: We pretty likely did not make the
    20 bed.
    21 LOU SMIT: After Christmas?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I guess I didn't even have
    23 time.
    24 LOU SMIT: You mean it would have (INAUDIBLE)?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids were there. They
    0125
    1 wanted to go down and open presents.
    2 LOU SMIT: So the bed would have been unmade
    3 probably when you went to bed?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Quite possibly. I don't remember
    5 specifically.
    6 LOU SMIT: What part of the bed do you sleep on?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I slept on this side.
    8 LOU SMIT: Which is the north side of the bed?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    10 LOU SMIT: Okay. You wake up the next morning
    11 and you recall then what time it was? What time do
    12 you remember it being?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think we set the time
    14 for 5:30. I remember waking up before the alarm
    15 went off. So it would have been 5:25 or probably
    16 something like that.
    17 LOU SMIT: What time do you normally get up?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Normally I get up naturally. I
    19 don't set the alarm. I wake up 6:30.
    20 LOU SMIT: So you specifically set the alarm
    21 when you want to wake up at a certain time?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    23 LOU SMIT: You remember setting the alarm on
    24 Christmas night?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember specifically
    0126
    1 doing it. But I know I did because we had to -- we
    2 had wanted, because as I recall we wanted to take
    3 off at 7:00. It was a three-hour flight to
    4 Minneapolis. That would have gotten us there at
    5 11. The kids' flight got in at elevenish. I
    6 remember I wanted to leave, I didn't want to be
    7 late for the kids' plane.
    8 Typically with trips like that we're always
    9 late. We would need to be there at 7:00 and we'd
    10 get there at 7:30. I wanted to be sure that we
    11 were up at this time.
    12 LOU SMIT: How about packing at all? I mean,
    13 were you already packed?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm a light traveler when we
    15 go to the lake. I've got clothes up there. I don't
    16 remember packing anything. I probably would have
    17 taken, it seems like I had a heavy coat I wanted
    18 to take with me. But that was about it. Because I
    19 got everything I --
    20 LOU SMIT: What kind of a coat?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I would be guessing. I think
    22 I was going to take a coat. Because it was have
    23 been winter there.
    24 LOU SMIT: What kind of clothes do you have
    25 up there? You had that one that you were taking
    0127
    1 with you?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I've got one kind. (INAUDIBLE)
    3 It's like a fake nagahide kind of. I think that's
    4 the coat I wanted to take.
    5 LOU SMIT: So you're a light packer and you
    6 don't remember packing anything?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm sure I didn't pack anything.
    8 I just took the coat. Anything I was setting to
    9 take I would have done in the morning. But the
    10 only thing I remember is that I wanted to take
    11 this coat.
    12 LOU SMIT: Did you take a shaving kit?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no. I've got all that
    14 stuff up there.
    15 LOU SMIT: So you got up. What about Patsy
    16 and the kids? There were various things. What do
    17 you remember about that?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: About us packing?
    19 LOU SMIT: Um hmm.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I know we had some suitcases set by
    21 the back door to go.
    22 LOU SMIT: And the backdoor would have been?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: The garage door.
    24 LOU SMIT: The back garage door. What kind of
    25 suitcases would they have been?
    0128
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: They were, as I recall, there
    2 was a black carryon, one of those, I remember it
    3 was a pop out.
    4 LOU SMIT: You remember that specifically?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty specifically. I think
    6 I
    7 had my computer; I think I had my little lap top
    8 computer there ready to go.
    9 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that was set out the
    11 night before.
    12 LOU SMIT: When would you have done that?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't remember if that was
    14 before we went to the Whites or after. I think it
    15 was (INAUDIBLE).
    16 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.
    18 LOU SMIT: And you would have just left that
    19 by the door and then take it with you?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: As we left, yeah. I would take
    21 it out.
    22 LOU SMIT: It seemed like there was other
    23 suitcases in the process of being packed? What
    24 were the specific conditions of (INAUDIBLE)?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy had done some packing
    0129
    1 in anticipation of the Big Red Boat trip because
    2 we were going to come home Friday and I think she
    3 had pre-packed some things for the kids primarily.
    4 So when we returned we could just grab our
    5 suitcases and go.
    6 LOU SMIT: All right. Now let's talk about
    7 the morning. And when you wake up what do you
    8 notice? What is the first thing upon awaking do
    9 you --
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I went into the bathroom;
    11 probably went to the bathroom, took a shower. Just
    12 started to get dressed.
    13 LOU SMIT: Did you ever have trouble during
    14 the night going to the bathroom?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    16 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah, usually once a night
    18 I'll wake up and go to the bathroom and go back to
    19 bed. I don't recall doing it that night. But
    20 that's not unusual at all.
    21 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: But I remember I was standing
    23 at my sink and I was probably brushing my teeth or
    24 combing my hair or something and I heard Patsy
    25 scream.
    0130
    1 LOU SMIT: Had you showered yet at that time?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, usually I take a shower
    3 the first time.
    4 LOU SMIT: Before you brush your teeth?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    6 LOU SMIT: Which bathroom did you use (INAUDIBLE)
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: This one back here.
    8 LOU SMIT: And you just use the shower?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Yeah, normally (INAUDIBLE)
    10 the tub.
    11 LOU SMIT: You know about what time it
    12 was that you heard her scream?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have probably been
    14 between 5:30 and 6:00. Probably around that time
    15 period.
    16 LOU SMIT: Did you see your wife get up that
    17 morning?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    19 LOU SMIT: So you had already been in the bathroom
    20 when she got up?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    22 LOU SMIT: Describe that scream?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: It was just a -- she screamed
    24 my name and I knew, I could just tell that
    25 something was just terribly wrong. And I just went
    0131
    1 charging downstairs.
    2 LOU SMIT: Okay. Which stairs did you go down
    3 then?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: It was the spiral ones.
    5 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) Yeah.
    7 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I went to the spiral ones.
    9 It seems to me she was coming up at the same time.
    10 One of the things that these guys get nervous
    11 about is when we tried to recall facts.
    12 LOU SMIT: Right.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: But I'm telling you what I recall.
    14 LOU SMIT: And that's what I'm saying, the best
    15 you can recall. And sometimes to jiggle your
    16 memory just a little bit. And a lot of times you
    17 just kind of put yourself right back. I mean I
    18 know it's hard to do, and I know that. But,
    19 sometimes if you can do that a lot more details
    20 come to mind.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    22 LOU SMIT: You run down the stairs?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: You know, Patsy is hysterical.
    24 I don't remember exactly what she said. I believe
    25 that it was like, (They have JonBenet,̃ and she
    0132
    1 gave me this note?
    2 LOU SMIT: Where were you at that time?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I was either landing
    4 here or I had gone partially down the stairs. It
    5 was somewhere in this area.
    6 LOU SMIT: You would have been on the second
    7 floor then?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think. But it seems
    9 to me that somewhere here on the second floor,
    10 partially down the stairs.
    11 LOU SMIT: She had the note in her hand?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: As I recall, I remember I spread
    13 it out on the floor just kind to absorb everything
    14 quickly.
    15 LOU SMIT: Tell me how you spread that out.
    16 I mean, do you remember how the pages were like,
    17 three --
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there were three together and I
    19 just kind of spread them out. I think there were
    20 three pages. I spread them out next to each other
    21 so I could look at the whole thing instantly.
    22 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: And I remember just screaming.
    24 Just --
    25 LOU SMIT: What was the first thing then that
    0133
    1 struck you when you read the note? I mean your
    2 first impression after reading that?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well you first impression was
    4 that you can't believe it. And I can remember, we
    5 have your daughter. And it's the strangest feeling
    6 I could ever imagine.
    7 LOU SMIT: Are you standing reading the
    8 (INAUDIBLE)?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I kind of got on my knees,
    10 because I had them on the floor.
    11 LOU SMIT: How were you dressed?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I had underwear on; I
    13 had a shirt on. I don't think I had on my shirt
    14 shirt. It was just an underwear thing.
    15 LOU SMIT: How long did it take you?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Moments, I guess. I don't know.
    17 I think I ran upstairs to look at her room. I
    18 think Patsy said -- I don't know if she checked on
    19 Burke. I don't know if she checked on Burke. I
    20 remember running around a lot.
    21 LOU SMIT: Let's think back just a little bit,
    22 John, because sometimes that's important. The
    23 sequence of things.
    24 First of all, I notice that you need glasses
    25 read. How was it that you could read that note?
    0134
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: It was fairly large print,
    2 as I recall. But I can read, if I have to.
    3 LOU SMIT: What was the lighting like there?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Seems to me it was -- I don't
    5 remember it being dark out. But the light was
    6 good.
    7 LOU SMIT: Were any of the lights on in the
    8 hallway?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: They could have been. Probably
    10 were.
    11 LOU SMIT: Why?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Just because we would normally
    13 turn that hall light on.
    14 LOU SMIT: Where is the switch for that located
    15 for the hall light?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: There's one here in the kitchen.
    17 There's one here and one over here. There's
    18 (INAUDIBLE) three light switches were here; one
    19 here, over here and back here.
    20 LOU SMIT: Now, you were reading the note,
    21 and just try to think of -- first of all, where
    22 was Patsy at that time?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember us both being kind
    24 of in this area. She was in here, I was here on
    25 the floor. She was just hysterical.
    0135
    1 LOU SMIT: Was she asking you any questions?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: What should we do, what should
    3 we do. And if we should call the police. And there
    4 was a (INAUDIBLE) that says not to call the
    5 police, so I called the police anyway. But she
    6 did; she called 911. And then she also called the
    7 Whites and the Fernies.
    8 LOU SMIT: Why would she? Why did she do that?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: They were close friends. And
    10 I remember her just screaming, (Come over, come
    11 over.̃
    12 LOU SMIT: Did you do anything before the
    13 911 call that you can think of?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we both checked JonBenet's
    15 room and probably Burke's room before that.
    16 LOU SMIT: Describe to me how you checked
    17 their rooms?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think I ran upstairs
    19 up the spiral staircase to her room and went in
    20 and looked around and she wasn't there.
    21 LOU SMIT: Describe how you looked around?
    22 Did you look under the bed? What did you do?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. I tell you I
    24 looked more later in the morning.
    25 LOU SMIT: We'll get to that. Okay.
    0136
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: She wasn't in her bed.
    2 LOU SMIT: Patsy was with you at that time
    3 when you checked in JonBenet's room? You said we?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think she was. I think
    5 she checked, I don't know think she was with me,
    6 as I recall. She might have been right behind of
    7 me. There was just a lot of running around
    8 LOU SMIT: So that's before you called the
    9 police, is that right?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm pretty sure it was, yeah.
    11 LOU SMIT: Do you remember either of you going
    12 to Burke's room at that time?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we did. I think I did.
    14 I remember going to his room. I don't remember if
    15 it was directly from there to his room or if I
    16 went downstairs and back up. But we checked his
    17 room pretty shortly thereafter.
    18 LOU SMIT: Was this before the police were
    19 called or after?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I think before or at least
    21 -- I'm not sure.
    22 LOU SMIT: When you checked --
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Cause we called the police
    24 pretty quick.
    25 LOU SMIT: Okay. When you checked his room,
    0137
    1 what did you see and how did you --
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I just looked in and he was
    3 in bed and he was asleep. I mean I knew he was
    4 there and he was okay.
    5 LOU SMIT: Was the light on in his room?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't remember.
    7 LOU SMIT: Was the door closed or did he leave
    8 it open? Do you remember that?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not specifically, I don't.
    10 LOU SMIT: After that, then what do you do?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well sometime in that sequence,
    12 I mean, Patsy called 911. I might have looked
    13 around the house some more.
    14 LOU SMIT: You have to describe that just a
    15 little bit.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I know I looked in the refrigerator.
    17 We have this walk-in refrigerator. We always
    18 worried about the kids getting in there.
    19 LOU SMIT: Before or after the 911 call?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was after, probably.
    21 You see, as I recall, that was pretty quick.
    22 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now you've called the police.
    23 Patsy calls the police. Are you there with her
    24 when she calls the police?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm -- yeah.
    0138
    1 LOU SMIT: Where is she at?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: She's at the phone in the kitchen.
    3 It's here, yeah, right here. I think I stood kind
    4 of right here.
    5 LOU SMIT: All right. Do you remember what she
    6 said on that 911 call?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: She was screaming, as I recall.
    8 I remember her struggling to make the person
    9 understand what the emergency was (INAUDIBLE).
    10 LOU SMIT: So then the 911 call was made.
    11 Do you hear Patsy then call her friends, or were
    12 her friends called before?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they were called after. I
    14 remember hearing her scream, (Come over, come
    15 over.̃
    16 LOU SMIT: Where were you when you heard her
    17 scream?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I was still in the same
    19 general area. But I don't think -- somewhere here.
    20 I was on the first floor, I think.
    21 LOU SMIT: So then what? Then what do you do?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well before the first policeman
    23 arrived I went upstairs and put on some pants and
    24 a shirt and probably looked through the house some
    25 more. You know.
    0139
    1 LOU SMIT: Just think about that just for a
    2 little bit. I probably went down (INAUDIBLE) At
    3 various through the morning I was checking to see
    4 what was locked.
    5 LOU SMIT: Was that later or was that right
    6 after --
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it wasn't a thorough --
    8 once (INAUDIBLE) backdoor, it was right there.
    9 LOU SMIT: Here? That's the south door.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. But it was locked, I'm
    11 sure.
    12 LOU SMIT: Do you remember when you checked
    13 that?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not specifically. In your mind,
    15 first of all you felt like you've been hit with a
    16 baseball bat in your stomach and your mind is just
    17 going mad. So it was a crazy time.
    18 LOU SMIT: John, I just want to bring you
    19 back to your reading the note here, okay? You come
    20 down the spiral staircase, read the note?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    22 LOU SMIT: Okay. Do you remember what the
    23 temperature was at that time in the house, or do
    24 you remember anything unusual at that time?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. It was odd.
    0140
    1 LOU SMIT: Now before the police come, you
    2 say you go back upstairs and you put on a shirt
    3 and pair of pants. Do you remember how Patsy was
    4 dressed at that time? Or do you have any
    5 recollection at all of how she was dressed?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. No.
    7 LOU SMIT: What's your first recollection
    8 then just before the police come? And just before
    9 the police come what were you doing?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I'm sure I started to
    11 check some of the areas, like the refrigerator and
    12 just trying to check this area?
    13 LOU SMIT: Did you ever check this area,
    14 the butler's kitchen?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember
    16 specifically looking there, no. I might have, but
    17 I don't remember.
    18 LOU SMIT: How much of a time period
    19 that call was made and the police officer arrived?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: It wasn't very long. Five
    21 or ten minutes, maybe. Yeah. I remember I came in
    22 and I came back and let him in the hallway. I
    23 said, (My daughter's been kidnapped. Here's a
    24 note.̃ And he said, (Are you sure she just didn't
    25 run away?̃ and I said, (For God sake, she's only
    0141
    1 six years old.̃ And I sort of had to convince that
    2 we really had a problem here.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: But, he was good, he was pretty
    4 good on the uptake.
    5 LOU SMIT: Just try to take it in slow steps.
    6 You know what you did with the officer and how you
    7 proceeded then; (INAUDIBLE)?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: We were standing in the hallway.
    9 We were handing him the note trying to explain and
    10 convince him that we had a problem. And at some
    11 point he asked us all to go into this room here
    12 and stay there.
    13 LOU SMIT: That's the solarium?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. The Fernies and the
    15 Whites were arriving at sometime between - I think
    16 he got there first. But at some point he kind of
    17 shepherded us all in there and asked us all to
    18 stay there. (INAUDIBLE)
    19 LOU SMIT: What did you do with the not?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I gave it to him. I think at
    21 that point he kept it. I mean I don't remember him
    22 giving it back to me. I do remember later we had,
    23 I think they made copies but we had it spread out
    24 on the table back here just trying to figure out
    25 what we could figure out.
    0142
    1 LOU SMIT: Are you with the officer from
    2 when he comes in? What is your association with
    3 that officer? Is it constant; is it sporadic?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: It's fairly constant, as I
    5 recall.
    6 I mean, you know, it's help and what can we do and
    7 what have we got to do.
    8 LOU SMIT: Where do you go with him? With
    9 the officer?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think another fellow
    11 came fairly quickly after that and one of them
    12 went through the house. (INAUDIBLE) another and I
    13 think there were several that came very quickly;
    14 uniformed police. And I remember they moved their
    15 cars from in front of the house because they
    16 didn't want people that we had called the police.
    17 But at one point there were some five or six
    18 uniformed police in the house. And then a couple
    19 people from Victim's Advocacy came too.
    20 LOU SMIT: Did you look in JonBenet's room
    21 with the officer?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Possibly. I don't remember. I'm
    23 sure I remember trying to go through to the parts
    24 of the house.
    25 LOU SMIT: See, that would help us to find out.
    0143
    1 What floor would you have gone through, I mean how
    2 would that have been?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think the first thing
    4 that perplexed me, was how could they have got in
    5 and how could they have got in the house. And he
    6 was trying to look for a how come they got in. And
    7 then I thought about it later, I don't remember
    8 when, I started wondering was anybody watching the
    9 house, because the note said they would be
    10 watching.
    11 So I went up to my bedroom and looked out the
    12 window and then I went to Burke's room and looked
    13 out the windows with some binoculars and I was
    14 looking at cars that were driving by. There was a
    15 truck that was parked in the alley across the road
    16 that I had never noticed before and I was watching
    17 the truck to see if possibly somebody who was --
    18 What was going through my mind was, when we lost
    19 Beth I was in my office. I got a phone call from
    20 my brother and he said Beth is dead. There was
    21 nothing I could do about it. I couldn't go an
    22 visit her. It was over.
    23 With JonBenet, I felt we were going to get her
    24 back. And I remember mustering every ounce of
    25 mental capacity I had to get her back. And, so
    0144
    1 despite the fact that I was just going mad out of
    2 my mind and my daughter wasn't there, I was trying
    3 to muster logic and reason and, (Okay, settle
    4 down. Let's get her back.̃
    5 So after that first shock of, she's gone. I was
    6 like, okay, what are we going to do. Let's get her
    7 back. And so as the morning wore on that was what
    8 was driving me. So I was trying to figure out
    9 (INAUDIBLE) watching the house. What are we going
    10 to do and all those kind of thoughts. And is she
    11 in the closet or in the refrigerator or behind the
    12 curtain.
    13 Just kind of scatterbrain and just took that focus
    14 and so --
    15 LOU SMIT: You say you used binoculars.
    16 Where did you get them from?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: They were from my bedroom,
    18 I think. Probably (INAUDIBLE).
    19 LOU SMIT: Okay. Did you use a flashlight
    20 at that point?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    22 LOU SMIT: What kind of flashlight do you
    23 have?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we've got several, I guess.
    25 One that, I believe, came up as an item was this
    0145
    1 MAG light flashlight. If it's the one I think it
    2 is, my son gave me that for a Christmas present a
    3 year or two ago. And that was probably in the bar.
    4 The bar drawer was typically where it was kept.
    5 LOU SMIT: You don't remember getting that?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I know I did not get it.
    7 LOU SMIT: Anyone else get it?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall. I don't even
    9 know it worked. Typically our flashlights didn't
    10 work because we needed new batteries (INAUDIBLE).
    11 We might have a few blown flashlights around.
    12 LOU SMIT: Let's talk about the truck that
    13 you say you see. Which window were you at when you
    14 saw it?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I was in Burke's room.
    16 Because the window is here.
    17 LOU SMIT: Where was the truck parked?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was kind of behind the
    19 Barnhills. There's an alley behind the Barnhills
    20 and then almost like a house behind the Barnhills.
    21 And I watched it for a while and there wasn't any
    22 activity. I also saw a little white car that seem
    23 to drive by (INAUDIBLE).
    24 And I think it was early morning, the day after
    25 Christmas. There wasn't much going on.
    0146
    1 Specifically I do remember the truck; I remember
    2 seeing the white Ford Fiesta or something like
    3 that. It was a small white --
    4 LOU SMIT: And where was that at?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: It drove by --
    6 LOU SMIT: You got that picture of your house?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It drove on Cascade, drove
    8 down the street.
    9 LOU SMIT: Any other activity? When was this
    10 that you were doing this, John?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: This was probably early part
    12 in the morning as I was trying to grasp what was
    13 going on. Probably before, some time between six
    14 and ten. Because we started to wait for the call.
    15 We were ready for the call. I think he said he
    16 would call at ten or after ten. And so we were
    17 ready for that call. (INAUDIBLE) before that.
    18 LOU SMIT: So you were anticipating the call from
    19 the kidnapper? You made a series of calls that
    20 morning. Can you remember it just kind of in
    21 sequence how you did that?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I called -- I wanted to get
    23 hold of Mike Archuleta who was waiting for us at
    24 the airport by that time. I think they got a
    25 number which rings into the cell phones they carry
    0147
    1 with them: 877-4286, I think it is.
    2 I might have called that number. I don't remember
    3 if I got Mike or I got Rich, his partner. I got
    4 one of them. It seems like I got Rich.
    5 LOU SMIT: When was that call made?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well this would have been probably
    7 maybe 6:30, 7:00 I guess. Because I think he was
    8 waiting for us (INAUDIBLE). My older kids, at that
    9 time, had gotten on their plane to go to
    10 Minneapolis, so there was no way I could
    11 (INAUDIBLE). So I wanted to enlist Mike's help to
    12 get in touch with them.
    13 He volunteered to go to Minneapolis and pick them
    14 up. I didn't want him to do that. So I just asked
    15 him to get a hold of them when they got to
    16 Minneapolis. So he took care of that.
    17 And then I called Rod (INAUDIBLE) office, he's my
    18 stockbroker and friend, to get the money together.
    19 And that was probably fairly early, around 7:00,
    20 7:30, around there. Rod was, I think he was at
    21 home getting ready to go to his parent's place in
    22 Mississippi, or he was at his parents. I don't
    23 know which it was. But I was trying to get a hold
    24 of him.
    25 John Fernie, who was there, had a friend who was a
    0148
    1 head of a bank in Boulder, and so John kind of
    2 took over that role, getting the money together.
    3 Then Rod called and I basically told him what was
    4 going on. (INAUDIBLE) called back before he called
    5 back. Several times. And every time the phone rang
    6 my heart would stop. And they arranged to
    7 increase, just give me a credit line of $100,000
    8 or whatever it was, 120.
    9 And then John arranged with his bank to withdraw
    10 $118,000 against my visa card. And I remember
    11 John going bank to work on them so that. It seemed
    12 like later in the morning. It was probably later
    13 in the morning; nineish; eightish, nineish.
    14 Somewhere in that region.
    15 Those are the only calls I remember making. At
    16 some point the (INAUDIBLE) called. I don't
    17 remember if he was calling from our house or the
    18 Fernies called before they left. But he came later
    19 from homicide. And then people started to arrive.
    20 LOU SMIT: How many phones do you have in
    21 the house?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we had several. Some of
    23 them didn't work. We had one in the solarium, we
    24 had one in the kitchen, one back here.
    25 LOU SMIT: All extensions?
    0149
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. In terms of the number
    2 of phone lines, I think we had two. I had two. I
    3 think there was one that came out of here for the
    4 computer modem. It wasn't part of the rest of the
    5 house system. There is one here in the study.
    6 There's one in the basement
    7 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: There's one jack here but it
    9 didn't work. I think there was phone in Patsy's
    10 room. But that was it.
    11 LOU SMIT: But just two lines basically other
    12 than the modem line, or does that make it three?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Just a modem line and three
    14 phone lines.
    15 LOU SMIT: And what was your phone number at
    16 that time, if you remember?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I (INAUDIBLE).
    18 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) that's fine.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.
    20 LOU SMIT: Where did you wait for the call
    21 mainly?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I remember when Detective
    23 Arndt came in, the uniform guy was trying to keep
    24 everybody in the back room here and, then there
    25 were a lot of people in there. There were
    0150
    1 detectives there and they had their quarters set
    2 up. They had cell phones. We were back in here, I
    3 know, for a little while. And Arndt was down the
    4 hall (INAUDIBLE) in the study.
    5 So then she took me up to his bedroom and we sat
    6 in this room and talked about it.
    7 LOU SMIT: That's called the guest bedroom?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Well we call it John Henry's
    9 room.
    10 LOU SMIT: John Henry's room.
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. She had kind of methodically
    12 went through; look here's what we have to do: when
    13 this person calls you've got to insist that you
    14 talk to JonBenet and stall for time. And I said
    15 why, and (INAUDIBLE) got everything. Tell him it's
    16 a hard job to raise that much money and use the
    17 time. But you must talk to JonBenet.
    18 So she was just coaching me on what to say, and
    19 then we were just waiting for the phone to ring.
    20 Mostly, as I recalled, I kind of waited in this
    21 room, cause the phone was here. Which was the one
    22 that I think I answered. And it rang several times
    23 (INAUDIBLE) hang up. When I answered it, it was
    24 hung up. But most of the time it was --
    25 LOU SMIT: When was the hang up?
    0151
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that morning during that
    2 period of time, you got to hang up. But the other
    3 calls were either from Ron (INAUDIBLE), I think
    4 Shirley called, our old nanny. Who had
    5 coincidentally (INAUDIBLE).
    6 LOU SMIT: Shirley's?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I think Shirley called.
    8 LOU SMIT: Shirley Brady?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Shirley Brady. Because as I
    10 recall I think I was kind of short with here
    11 because I wanted to be off the phone.(INAUDIBLE)
    12 wait in here for the phone to ring. And we waited
    13 for the specific call. (INAUDIBLE) I mean we were
    14 standing in this area here and Linda said to me,
    15 (Why don't you take someone and go through every
    16 inch house and see if you see anything out of the
    17 ordinary. And so we were standing there.
    18 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's back up just a little
    19 bit?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.
    21 LOU SMIT: You said that you went through
    22 the house at another period of time?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    24 LOU SMIT: I remember in your report. Did you
    25 ever go down to the basement?
    0152
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. I went.
    2 LOU SMIT: Who was with you at that time?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I was by myself. I was. I had
    4 gone down the basement. I went in the --
    5 LOU SMIT: You're going to have to back up a
    6 little so that the camera (INAUDIBLE)?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went
    8 in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.
    9 We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a
    10 chair that was in front of the door. Some old
    11 things. I moved the chair, went into this room,
    12 went back in here. This window was open, maybe
    13 that far.
    14 LOU SMIT: Okay. You said -- or how far
    15 were
    16 you? An inch?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: An inch, maybe, or less. It
    18 was cracked open.
    19 LOU SMIT: Which window?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was the little one.
    21 There's three windows across here, as I recall. I
    22 think it was the middle one. It was that was
    23 broken. There was pane class broken out of it,
    24 which I attributed to breaking myself.
    25 LOU SMIT: People go into that basement?
    0153
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there
    2 was
    3 a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.
    4 LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was
    5 positioned?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think
    7 the handle was on top. It was directly under the
    8 window, as I recall. And I closed the window, I
    9 don't know why, but I closed it. And then --
    10 LOU SMIT: When you closed it, did you lock
    11 it or close it?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I latched it. There's a little
    13 latch on it.
    14 LOU SMIT: And you're sure of that?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, I am
    16 sure. I don't think I looked anywhere else. I
    17 think at that point I still was trying to figure
    18 out how they'd get in the house.
    19 LOU SMIT: Well wouldn't that trigger your
    20 (INAUDIBLE).
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.
    22 LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember. I mean,
    24 part of what is going on you're in such a state of
    25 disbelief this can even happen. And the, you know,
    0154
    1 the window had been broken out. And you say hah,
    2 that's it. But it was a window that I had used to
    3 get into the house before. It was cracked and open
    4 a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me.
    5 Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in
    6 because that basement could get real hot in
    7 winter. So it was like, you know, after I thought
    8 about it, I thought it was more of an alarming
    9 situation how it struck me at the time. It was
    10 still sort of explainable to me that it could have
    11 been left open.
    12 And the suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have
    13 been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I
    14 remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all
    15 the way back there and put it against the window.
    16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's talk about suitcases a
    17 little bit as long as your talking about it now.
    18 It was right up against the wall?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    20 LOU SMIT: And you said you had taken that
    21 down. When did you?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Months before, probably, months
    23 before, two months before. It was one of these big
    24 Samsonite suitcases that, I don't know, the kids
    25 used it to bring some clothes home, the older
    0155
    1 kids. Sometimes it ended up at our house. I don't
    2 think it was our suitcase. It seemed to belong to
    3 Cindy Johnson, my ex-wife.
    4 But it was here for a while. It was up in the
    5 laundry room. I remember taking it downstairs to
    6 clean up. And I think I just kind of sat it in
    7 this room here.
    8 LOU SMIT: That would be in that hall?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Just in the landing in the hall
    10 area.
    11 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: But I'm 99.9 percent taken I
    13 wouldn't have taken it all the way back and set it
    14 against that wall.
    15 LOU SMIT: When you noticed it, about what
    16 time was that? That's kind of important. In terms
    17 of time now.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it would have been probably
    19 before nine o'clock, I would say. It would have
    20 been that time period: seven to nine. Cause I was
    21 still, you know amidst all this other stuff,
    22 trying to figure out what's going on here? How did
    23 they get in the house? I know this is before Linda
    24 told us to go through the house. It was well
    25 before.
    0156
    1 LOU SMIT: And was there lighting down
    2 there
    3 or anything at that time?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't specifically, I don't
    5 remember that it was on. The lights were probably
    6 off, which would have been normal.
    7 LOU SMIT: How would you have been able to
    8 basement with the lights off, or was it --
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: With the lights off at night
    10 it would have been hazardous because there's a lot
    11 of junk piled in here. This door was kind of
    12 blocked with boxes and a little chair. And you
    13 could move the chair and then walk right in. But
    14 it would have been pitch black; it would have been
    15 tough.
    16 LOU SMIT: Did you say you had to move that
    17 chair to get in?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    19 LOU SMIT: Any other areas you looked at?
    20 You walked into that train room? Did you look in
    21 any of the closets or in any other area?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember doing that.
    23 I
    24 think my purpose in going down there was to see,
    25 to figure how they got in. But I don't remember
    0157
    1 looking anywhere else on that trip in the
    2 basement.
    3 LOU SMIT: You didn't got to the wine cellar
    4 at that time?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    6 LOU SMIT: How long would you say you were
    7 down there?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, a minute. Thirty seconds
    9 to a minute.
    10 MIKE KANE: When was this?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was, if you're trying
    12 to put in blocks of time, it was probably some
    13 time between seven and nine.
    14 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: That's probably as close as
    16 I can come. It was earlier in the day.
    17 LOU SMIT: Did you notice if any police
    18 officers had checked that before?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I didn't. I don't know.
    20 My impression was when they first came that
    21 morning that one of them looked around.
    22 LOU SMIT: Would that have been before you
    23 went down there?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah, it might.
    25 LOU SMIT: Do you remember the crime scene
    0158
    1 techs coming with their equipment?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    3 LOU SMIT: Would you know if he went down
    4 there before or after they were there?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Before, I would say.
    6 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I think before.
    8 LOU SMIT: So after you checked the basement,
    9 what did you do then? Do you remember?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Not specifically. I came back up.
    11 But I don't remember exactly what I after that
    12 point. At one point I did go out to check this
    13 door here because there was a bunch of boxes piled
    14 in front of it. It was locked. Then I came out
    15 here and went around and it was locked.
    16 LOU SMIT: So you came out the south door
    17 and checked the garage door and then you went back
    18 in the south door. How long would that have taken?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Twenty seconds. Not very long,
    20 thirty seconds, if that.
    21 LOU SMIT: Other than that, did you ever
    22 leave the house that morning?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    24 LOU SMIT: There have been some questions
    25 about your activities between let's say 10:30 and
    0159
    1 noon. Do you remember where you were between those
    2 two times?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I was either in this bedroom
    4 with Linda Arndt talking about procedure or what
    5 we're going to do, or I was waiting for the phone
    6 call. Because that was 10 to 12, as I recall, was
    7 when he would have called.
    8 LOU SMIT: Where was Fleet at this time
    9 or John Fernie? Did they ever talk to you?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh boy. I don't remember
    11 specifically. But I know there were some other
    12 people who were sitting back here and trying to
    13 figure out what was going on. At that a point
    14 there was a copy of the note on the table, and we
    15 were trying to, you know, in our minds analyze
    16 what it was were dealing with. And I think Fleet
    17 was back there for a while. Fernie might have
    18 been. I don't remember.
    19 Fleet at one point took Burke, and this was
    20 earlier in the morning, he took Burke over to his
    21 house to be with little Fleet. John Fernie had
    22 gone to the bank to work that issue. He came back
    23 without the money and I said, (Where is the
    24 money?̃ And he said, (The police didn't want me to
    25 bring it to the house.̃ They were supposedly
    0160
    1 copying bills frantically at a copying machine.
    2 That always struck me as funny. I expected him to
    3 come back with a bag of money. Somebody had
    4 instructed him not to bring the money back to the
    5 house.
    6 LOU SMIT: You say that Burke left. Do you
    7 recall the circumstances surrounding Burke leaving
    8 how he got involved in that?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Vaguely. I went into his room
    10 to wake him up. I told him that JonBenet was
    11 missing, gone. I remember him crying and just kind
    12 of hustling to get up. I remember him delaying to
    13 get a toy or Nintendo or something like that
    14 before he left to take with him. Fleet took him in
    15 his Suburban. They went out the front door.
    16 LOU SMIT: Did he stop and get anything
    17 to eat?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I doubt it. No. I mean, it
    19 was a panic. I mean, we were just -- I don't even
    20 remember that we got him dressed. I don't remember
    21 specifically getting Burke dressed. I remember
    22 discussing where should we take him; he needs to
    23 get out of here; he needs to be safe.
    24 LOU SMIT: Do you remember specifically ever
    25 going out this door, the butler door?
    0161
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: That morning?
    2 LOU SMIT: Yes.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I did not. I know I did
    4 not.
    5 LOU SMIT: Do you remember anyone going out that
    6 door?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. That door, from time
    8 to time, I'd find wide open because if one of the
    9 kids would go out they'd leave it open. But in the
    10 normal course of activity, I remember going down
    11 there. And I think on a couple of occasions I went
    12 door and the door was just wide open or unlocked.
    13 LOU SMIT: Is it problem with the door or
    14 is it a --
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I think it's just in
    16 our house kids would come and go out of every
    17 orifice and place and that was one of them.
    18 LOU SMIT: I know we're going to get more
    19 questions in regards to this. But I think this is
    20 enough for now. But what I'd like you to them is,
    21 just from the time that Linda Arndt told you
    22 (INAUDIBLE) progress right in that time.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean, she said go
    24 through every part of the house to see if you see
    25 anything that's unusual. So I so Fleet, because
    0162
    1 she wanted me to take someone with me. So Fleet
    2 was right there, so he went with me.
    3 LOU SMIT: What made you decide to go
    4 downstairs?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I just wanted to start
    6 logically from the bottom up, I guess, as I was
    7 looking at it. And I could have just as easily
    8 gone upstairs, but I went down. Probably just
    9 logically going through every inch of the house.
    10 So I went down to the basement. I went into this
    11 room with Fleet. I explained to him that this
    12 window had been cracked open and I closed it. That
    13 the window was broken, but I think it was broken
    14 by me once before. We got down on our hands and
    15 knees looking for some glass just to see.
    16 LOU SMIT: What did you find?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we found a few fragments
    18 of glass not enough to indicate that it was a
    19 fresh break.
    20 LOU SMIT: What did you do with those fragments?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: We might have put them on the
    22 ledge, if I remember. It really wasn't much. We
    23 had only found one or two. We might have put them
    24 up here on the ledge.
    25 LOU SMIT: Could you have put them on the
    0163
    1 suitcase?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Ahhhh, it's possible but I
    3 don't remember doing that.
    4 LOU SMIT: Was the suitcase, when you came
    5 back, in the same spot it was when you had been?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I moved it to see or
    7 to look for glass then. But I think it was where I
    8 left it, where it was when I was down there
    9 before.
    10 LOU SMIT: Did you look inside the suitcase?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    12 LOU SMIT: You knew what was inside of the
    13 suitcase?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I presumed it was empty. It
    15 should have been empty. I thought it was empty.
    16 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: So we did that. I came back
    18 out here and went right to this room.
    19 LOU SMIT: So you left the train room?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I came right in here.
    21 LOU SMIT: That's in the boiler, where the
    22 boiler is?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I remember grabbing
    24 the handle because the door was latched because I
    25 expected it not to be latched. I reached out,
    0164
    1 flipped the latch and opened the door and
    2 immediately looked down.
    3 LOU SMIT: And you say immediately?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a white blanket.
    5 And I just knew that I had found her.
    6 LOU SMIT: How were you standing in the
    7 doorway when you observed that?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: I was probably right there.
    9 The door pulled open. The handle was on the left
    10 side of the door and it opened this way, as I
    11 recall.
    12 LOU SMIT: So now, I just want to get that
    13 right because when you opened the door, you could
    14 look inside the room. Is the light on or off at
    15 the time you open the door?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was off. I don't
    17 remember it being on. It was off.
    18 LOU SMIT: Would you be able to see into
    19 that
    20 room if the light was off?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I saw clearly, instantly.
    22 Yeah.
    23 LOU SMIT: Do you remember turning the light
    24 on?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think I did. I remember
    0165
    1 just this rush that I had found her and there was
    2 tape on her mouth. I took the tape off.
    3 LOU SMIT: We're going to get to that. I know
    4 that's hard, but we're going to get to that.
    5 You look inside there and you see that. Where is
    6 Fleet at this time?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I assume he's behind me, but
    8 I don't have any recollection (INAUDIBLE).
    9 LOU SMIT: Okay. What do you actually see
    10 now,
    11 I mean see in this room?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I see a white blanket
    13 that's folded across her body neatly.
    14 LOU SMIT: It was neatly folded across the
    15 body?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    17 LOU SMIT: Now describe that just a little
    18 bit? Was it --
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: She was laying on the blanket.
    20 LOU SMIT: Was it laying on the back?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. On the back. The blanket
    22 was caught up around and crossed in front of her
    23 as if somebody was tucking her in.
    24 LOU SMIT: Talk about the tape?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a piece of fairly
    0166
    1 wide black tape, which I immediately took off. Her
    2 lips were blue.
    3 LOU SMIT: Where were you standing when
    4 you
    5 did that, John?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I was, she was like right
    7 there and I was right here.
    8 LOU SMIT: So you hadn't gone into the wine
    9 cellar, you were still on the north side of her at
    10 that point?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Um hmm.
    12 LOU SMIT: And the duct tape, do you remember
    13 if it was adhered all the way to her mouth?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It wasn't really duct
    15 tape, it was -- well I'm sure you've seen it. But
    16 it was like black. It wasn't electrical tape. It
    17 was kind of white, black, unusual tape, I thought.
    18 LOU SMIT: What did you do with the tape?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I took it off with my
    20 right hand and just dropped it. I didn't do
    21 anything specific with it.
    22 LOU SMIT: What else do you remember right
    23 at that time?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I just remember just talking
    25 and, (Come on baby.̃ And I tried to untie her
    0167
    1 arms; they were tied up behind her head.
    2 LOU SMIT: Were they tied tight?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, very tight.
    4 LOU SMIT: They were very tight?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I noticed a spot in her coat,
    6 below the surface.
    7 LOU SMIT: How do you know they were tied
    8 tight?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Because they were -- you know,
    10 her skin was swollen around. And they were not
    11 easy to get off. I tried to untie them quickly and
    12 I just picked her up carried her upstairs. I was
    13 screaming. In fact, I couldn't even scream.
    14 And then I brought her upstairs into the
    15 living room and later there, at one point, tried
    16 to untie the not further, and Linda Arndt stopped
    17 me from doing it.
    18 LOU SMIT: The knot?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    20 LOU SMIT: Where?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Up on her arms. And I didn't
    22 notice the -- as I noticed the blood below the
    23 surface, but I didn't notice this core around the
    24 neck.
    25 LOU SMIT: Now when you brought her up, did
    0168
    1 you bring her from the basement, and did you meet
    2 anybody up on the first floor?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember anybody. I
    4 just remember bringing her in and laying her -- I
    5 mean there were people in the dining and living
    6 room. But I remember Linda Arndt kneeling down
    7 beside her. I was there and Linda said she's dead.
    8 And I didn't want -- Patsy hadn't come in the --
    9 LOU SMIT: When was Patsy --
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: But I didn't know at the time,
    11 but later, she was back in the study with Barbara
    12 Fernie and I don't know who else. My emotion was
    13 that I had found her, which was good. But she was
    14 dead, which was horrible. But it was almost better
    15 than not knowing. Cause not knowing where your
    16 child is the most horrible feeling, I think, a
    17 parent can experience. And that was (INAUDIBLE)
    18 what had been going through our mind all that
    19 morning.
    20 So when I first found her I was like,
    21 (Thank God, I found her.̃ I didn't want Patsy to
    22 see her that way, and I ran upstairs and got a
    23 blanket off one of the chairs, I think, it's got
    24 a little shape like.
    25 LOU SMIT: Upstairs?
    0169
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably up in the TV room.
    2 I just ran up these stairs and went back down and
    3 put the blanket over her.
    4 LOU SMIT: At that time, what was Patsy
    5 doing?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think she'd come in
    7 the room yet. I think, what I remember later, was
    8 they wouldn't let her go into that room right
    9 then.
    10 LOU SMIT: And when you say (theỹ, who?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Barbara Fernie and whoever
    12 else was with her. I mean, she told me this later,
    13 Patsy did.
    14 BRYAN MORGAN: We've been doing this a lot
    15 of time. I want to finish this part so we don't
    16 have to go through this again.
    17 LOU SMIT: I understand.
    18 BRYAN MORGAN: Would you please do that and
    19 give us some idea of how long, and then we can
    20 take a break.
    21 LOU SMIT: I think ten minutes and then
    22 we'll probably --
    23 MIKE KANE: I'm going to have some questions
    24 about this too. I know we were going to come back.
    25 I mean, we've been kind of doing this in a general
    0170
    1 way and then I just wanted to stay out of it for
    2 now.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm okay.
    4 LOU SMIT: I know it's very tough.
    5 MIKE KANE: And I'm sensitive to that too.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I appreciate it.
    7 BRYAN MORGAN: You all understand how many
    8 times I've seen this gone on.
    9 LOU SMIT: I see that; I believe that.
    10 BRYAN MORGAN: Please.
    11 LOU SMIT: Do you want to continue?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.
    13 LOU SMIT: Just go ahead. And Mike I want
    14 you to jump right in.
    15 MIKE KANE: I'm trying to get the sequence
    16 here. I don't know if it's clear. When, the first
    17 thing in the morning, you had the note. You said
    18 you got dressed and you were looking for her. Was
    19 that before the police arrived?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I put on pants and a shirt
    21 before the police arrived.
    22 MIKE KANE: Yeah. But then you were doing
    23 something to look for her at that point. And where
    24 did you go first?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't remember
    0171
    1 specifically. I remember, because the first thing
    2 that goes through your mind is: she's missing,
    3 where is she. And I remember opening the
    4 refrigerator; it's a walk-in refrigerator. I think
    5 I looked under the bed. There was nothing
    6 methodical about it. (INAUDIBLE).
    7 MIKE KANE: Did you go to the basement?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't go to the
    9 basement till later.
    10 MIKE KANE: Was there a reason?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I mean, the first thing
    12 that came to my mind was the refrigerator. I don't
    13 know why. I had to look in there and she wasn't
    14 there. I mean it was a combination of trying to
    15 see if she was in the house, to see how they got
    16 in, and there's all this going through your mind.
    17 Just what's going on.
    18 MIKE KANE: Okay. And then I think you
    19 said you did go in the basement to see how
    20 (INAUDIBLE) Could you like just picture that scene
    21 again and walk me through it?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, when I came down, I
    23 mean, one of the things I noticed, okay, that door
    24 is still blocked?
    25 MIKE KANE: What do you mean it was
    0172
    1 blocked?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, there were some boxes
    3 and there was like a barstool kind of thing
    4 sitting there. It wasn't obvious to me that
    5 anybody had gone through because I had to move the
    6 chair to get in, which I did. And then I came back
    7 in here and I noticed the window was broken, which
    8 fits from when I did it. But the window was open
    9 slightly.
    10 MIKE KANE: It might have had a little
    11 latch or something?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Just this little latch. But
    13 what I did specifically notice was the suitcase
    14 sitting under the window. That was not -- that
    15 didn't fit. I could explain why the window was
    16 broken or why it might have been partly open, but
    17 the suitcase just kind of jumped out at me.
    18 MIKE KANE: And you said that you had
    19 previously taken that down? I think you said you
    20 took it down to the laundry room. Are you talking
    21 about the second floor laundry room?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I think it had been up
    23 here for a while. The kids had gone in; they
    24 unpacked or whatever. Maybe it was in this room.
    25 It was somewhere up in this area.
    0173
    1 MIKE KANE: Okay. I thought you meant the
    2 laundry area?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no, the second floor.
    4 Because I took it down to the basement, but I just
    5 kind of sat it in this room. We weren't terribly
    6 neat, so putting stuff away was kind of a
    7 progression. So it got that far. But I absolutely
    8 did not move that.
    9 MIKE KANE: Now you said that that window
    10 was open a bit, but that sometimes that had been
    11 open before to let air --
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: It was open for ventilation.
    13 It was wide open, because with the heat all
    14 winter, that room would really get hot. So if the
    15 kids were down there and playing, you had to open
    16 the window.
    17 MIKE KANE: And that was a room where the kids
    18 played in a lot with the train?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: The train was there. Burke
    20 used to play with that. They didn't play there a
    21 lot. Burke did, from time to time. But not so
    22 much JonBenet. That was Burke's train room.
    23 MIKE KANE: And so this was before or do
    24 you remember if this was before or after the
    25 Whites and Fernies (INAUDIBLE)?
    0174
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was after,
    2 because they came fairly early.
    3 MIKE KANE: Was it long after?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I really don't remember
    5 specifically. The best I can do is, it was, I
    6 believe, after the police came. Because they had
    7 gone through the house before I figured out what
    8 I'm going to do. It was before ten o'clock. They
    9 had already done some preparation before that. So
    10 it would have been before. Probably before nine.
    11 So then somewhere between seven and nine.
    12 MIKE KANE: Okay. I think it's, and this
    13 may put things into perspective. I think you were
    14 saying that you were expecting a phone call
    15 between ten and 12. The note said between eight
    16 and ten.
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, really?
    18 MIKE KANE: So does that note, does
    19 that put into context, between eight and ten,
    20 where were you?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) yeah. Really it
    22 does. When we were ready for the phone call and I
    23 was prepped about what I was going to say and I
    24 was getting the family ready. And so between that
    25 period of time we were just waiting for the phone
    0175
    1 call and I was near the phone. And I was either in
    2 the study or on the first floor. I just waiting
    3 for it.
    4 MIKE KANE: So it would have been before
    5 that?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have been before
    7 that time period.
    8 MIKE KANE: But would if have been before
    9 the time that you said Linda prepped you? I
    10 believe she arrived later on; she arrived around
    11 eight o'clock or so?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was before that.
    13 MIKE KANE: It was before that?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) my time --
    15 MIKE KANE: No, I understand. That's why
    16 trying to (INAUDIBLE).
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: But if the note said, eight
    18 to ten, which I don't remember.
    19 MIKE KANE: Yes, it said that, eight.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: We were well prepared. There
    21 was recorders set up; there was wire taps in
    22 place; Linda had briefed me on what to say. So she
    23 would have gotten there, gosh, quarter to seven,
    24 seven. I'm sure --
    25 MIKE KANE: Yeah. No, I'm just trying to
    0176
    1 put the time --
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. But she was there for
    3 a while. She was there a good while before we were
    4 ready for the call.
    5 MIKE KANE: Okay. And now, there was another
    6 time that you went down, and that's when you went
    7 down with Fleet?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. That was after we waited
    9 and waited and it didn't appear we were going to
    10 get a call.
    11 MIKE KANE: So after that ten o'clock time
    12 period was up, was there a discussion about, maybe
    13 he'll call later or something (INAUDIBLE)?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I mean, first of all the
    15 note said, we were going to call you tomorrow. We
    16 didn't know if tomorrow was the 26th or the 27th.
    17 We weren't sure. But it did say get a lot of rest
    18 because you're going to have to travel a long way.
    19 So it wasn't clear, totally clear, that it was
    20 going be in the morning. But obviously we hoped it
    21 would be. So I'm sure that was going through our
    22 minds. That if he means tomorrow (INAUDIBLE).
    23 But I remember we were standing out in this area
    24 and Linda said, (Why don't you go through every
    25 inch of the house and see if you see anything out
    0177
    1 of the ordinary.̃ And it just seemed like the
    2 appropriate thing to do.
    3 MIKE KANE: So, from ten o'clock on after
    4 that time had passed, what do you recall even
    5 during that time? Were you still waiting for a
    6 call?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I think beyond ten, I don't
    8 remember how long.
    9 MIKE KANE: At some point you thought --
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: At some point we sort of
    11 figured, okay, maybe we weren't going to get a
    12 call.
    13 MIKE KANE: And what did you do at that
    14 point? How did you occupy your time between that
    15 and when you went downstairs?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't that I did much of
    17 anything other than I was just waiting for that
    18 call. And the phone rang maybe four, five, six
    19 times during that period.
    20 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: And I always jumped up and
    22 answered it and the police got their recorders on.
    23 It was always a false alarm.
    24 MIKE KANE: Where was Fleet White during
    25 that time after the phone call (INAUDIBLE)?
    0178
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember specifically.
    2 I mean, I remember by that time it was just kind
    3 of, people were all over. I remember Father Rol
    4 sitting on the couch praying in the living room. I
    5 don't have any specific --
    6 MIKE KANE: And where were you most of the
    7 time?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Me?
    9 MIKE KANE: Yeah, you.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think a lot of the
    11 time I was back here.
    12 MIKE KANE: After that ten o'clock deadline.
    13 Do you remember?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I think for the most part I
    15 was on the first floor. I don't remember
    16 specifically. But there was people in the living
    17 room, so I was probably kind of back and forth.
    18 And the police were in the kitchen.
    19 MIKE KANE: Was Fleet talking to you at
    20 all during that?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Fleet was taking frantic
    22 notes, I remember that. I noticed that it was a
    23 yellow note pad, and he was just writing; writing,
    24 writing, writing.
    25 MIKE KANE: Do you know what he was writing?
    0179
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. No. No. I mean it
    2 was like every little thing I had to do or should
    3 do --
    4 MIKE KANE: Did you find that odd?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess at the time I thought
    6 he was just trying to do whatever he could to
    7 help, was my impression. And at the time, I didn't
    8 find it odd.
    9 MIKE KANE: Was he talking to you and
    10 comforting you?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that he
    12 was. Comforting that I remember was coming from
    13 Father Rol. That's all I really remember
    14 specifically.
    15 MIKE KANE: And at that point, I knew
    16 that one time you said that everyone was in the
    17 solarium, and then you said Patsy and a couple of
    18 others maybe went back to the study. Were they
    19 still back in the study right after that ten
    20 o'clock or do you know if they were back in the
    21 solarium?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. Cause the
    23 two ladies from the Advocacy were in the solarium.
    24 A lot of them were sitting on the floor. I
    25 remember sitting on the floor with a pail beside
    0180
    1 her because she was afraid she was going to throw
    2 up.
    3 I guess I remember her more in this room a lot
    4 than I do back there. I think they tended to stay
    5 in this room. We went back into this room.
    6 MIKE KANE: Bryan, I'm not sure, you said
    7 you don't want to go over it and I'm not sure
    8 exactly from what point to what point. Like, I do
    9 have questions about the night before.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: That's fine.
    11 MIKE KANE: Questions about -- I don't know
    12 whether you want to do this now or?
    13 BRYAN MORGAN: John is anxious to get this
    14 over with. The (INAUDIBLE) Q & A about what'd you
    15 do next and what'd you do next. If he's up for it,
    16 I'm up for it. I'm hoping that there will come a
    17 time when we are finished with this. That's all
    18 I'm trying to say.
    19 MIKE KANE: That's fine. I understand. Okay.
    20 You said that when you went down in the basement
    21 that second time with Fleet, and you were back in
    22 that room, you were looking for glass on the
    23 floor. Why were you?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I was just trying to verify
    25 in my own mind that I had in fact broken the
    0181
    1 window last summer and it was cleaned up and this
    2 wasn't the break I was looking for. If there was a
    3 lot of glass there.
    4 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Because I wasn't sure that
    6 that window -- well I did know it hadn't been
    7 fixed. But it didn't totally surprise me that it
    8 hadn't been.
    9 MIKE KANE: Okay. Now when you went around
    10 to the wine cellar door, you said you pulled at it
    11 and, I think you said, that you were surprised
    12 that it was latched?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I just said I remember pulling
    14 on it almost popping out of hand because it's
    15 always been open. And I don't think the latch was
    16 latched.
    17 MIKE KANE: I think you said, (I didn't expect
    18 it to be latched.̃ Was it normally not?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I'd say, I mean, the door was
    20 kind of stuck anyway, so it wasn't common to latch
    21 it.
    22 MIKE KANE: Did that latch, and I've seen
    23 pictures of it, it was on like a pivot?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: It was on a block of wood.
    25 MIKE KANE: A block of wood, but it was
    0182
    1 pivoted?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    3 MIKE KANE: Was it enough that it would fall
    4 down on its own or did you have to physically turn
    5 it?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I think you had to physically
    7 turn it.
    8 MIKE KANE: All right. Okay. Now, when you
    9 went inside to that room, you described the
    10 blanket. And you said it was folded like -- I'm
    11 just trying to get a mental picture of it. Was it
    12 like --
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: It was like an Indian papoose.
    14 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: You know, the blanket was under
    16 her completely. It was brought up and folded over
    17 like
    18 that.
    19 MIKE KANE: Folded over, okay.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: It looked like, at that time
    21 I didn't know the extent of the injuries, but it
    22 looked like somebody had just put her there
    23 comfortably, but tied up with her mouth gagged.
    24 MIKE KANE: And John, I really understand
    25 how difficult this is. Do you remember, was her
    0183
    1 head exposed? Were her feet exposed?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Possibly.
    3 MIKE KANE: But not the rest of her?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, yeah, I think her
    5 feet were exposed. But her head was. Her head was
    6 tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head.
    7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)
    8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her
    9 hands tied closely together or were they wide
    10 apart?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.
    12 MIKE KANE: There were crossed like that.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands
    14 were close together.
    15 MIKE KANE: And you tried to untie one of
    16 them? Were you successful?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Partly. I mean, I sort of
    18 started to get them untied, but I guess I was
    19 starting to realize that that would do any good.
    20 MIKE KANE: And so at that point then, was
    21 it then you just took her right upstairs?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I just picked her up and ran
    23 screaming upstairs.
    24 MIKE KANE: Okay. And was the blanket still
    25 there?
    0184
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    2 MIKE KANE: Cause you took her out of the
    3 blanket and picked her up?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    5 MIKE KANE: Okay. Anyone else there with
    6 there? Was there anyone wait (INAUDIBLE), that
    7 door right there? Did you come up?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I came up and came
    9 around this part right over here.
    10 MIKE KANE: Okay. And you said you yelled
    11 and I guess people in the house heard that.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    13 MIKE KANE: And they came running?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    15 MIKE KANE: Did you see everybody?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. All I
    17 remember is Linda Arndt was there and Father Rol
    18 was at her head.
    19 MIKE KANE: Is there anybody that you
    20 (INAUDBILE)?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. I mean
    22 I've been thinking back, I don't remember Fleet
    23 White saying anything when I was in that room. I
    24 mean I felt like I was by myself. But that might
    25 have been mistaken because I was. But from the
    0185
    1 point I found her to the time I got her into the
    2 living room, I felt like I was by myself, that
    3 there was nobody around in that little room.
    4 After we laid and I put the blanket
    5 over JonBenet and Patsy came in, I said to the
    6 people with her, both Fleet and Priscilla
    7 individually kneeled over her, just for a minute
    8 or two. And then at that point --
    9 MIKE KANE: This is really important.
    10 That blanket, I mean, was it like there was care
    11 taken? It was neatly folded?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought so, yeah.
    13 MIKE KANE: It wasn't like it was just
    14 barely thrown over her?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it looked like somebody
    16 was trying to make her comfortable, because it was
    17 under her, completely under her head and brought
    18 up around her, as if you would wrap a --
    19 MIKE KANE: Papoose?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: -- a papoose.
    21 MIKE KANE: I don't have anything else.
    22 LOU SMIT: Okay. I think that we should
    23 (INAUDIBLE)?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it's frankly easier
    25 now than it was.
    0186
    1 LOU SMIT: Do you want to take a break?
    2 BRYAN MORGAN: Yeah.
    3 (BREAK TAKEN)
    4 LOU SMIT: Okay. You stayed in the house
    5 until -- do you remember what time that you left
    6 the house (INAUDIBLE)?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I'm always been messed
    8 up on my times, but we were leaving the house at a
    9 time when my older kids pulled up in a taxicab.
    10 And they would have, my recollection is it was
    11 around one o'clock. Mike Archuleta had contacted
    12 them in Minneapolis. They were able to get on a
    13 flight in Denver fairly quickly and then get a cab
    14 from (INAUDIBLE) to our house. I mean they were
    15 literally pulling in the cabs when were about to
    16 get in the house to go to the Fernies.
    17 LOU SMIT: Before you left, what did the
    18 police tell you? I mean, normally they have
    19 certain things that they tell someone. What did
    20 they tell you prior to leaving?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: All I remember was they said,
    22 yeah, we can leave the house. The coroner, I think
    23 it was the coroner, came up with a form she wanted
    24 to sign, because they had to do an autopsy and
    25 they wanted me to sign it.
    0187
    1 LOU SMIT: Were you given any instructions
    2 to call the police or what to do or anything like
    3 that?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that we were.
    5 I remember at some point I mentioned to Larry
    6 Mason that we go to in Atlanta, I remember
    7 thinking that I would just -- when Beth died we
    8 went to Atlanta, cause that's our home. That was
    9 kind of my instinct, just to go to Atlanta,
    10 because that's home (INAUDIBLE). And he said,
    11 (Well, you need to stick around for a couple
    12 days.̃ (I said okay.̃
    13 LOU SMIT: He said to stick around?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: For two or three days. And
    15 so we went --
    16 LOU SMIT: Did he say when he would contact
    17 you or anything like that?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: He might have, but I don't
    19 remember. All I specifically remember was the
    20 coroner giving me this form to sign and I signed
    21 it.
    22 LOU SMIT: Now when you were in the house
    23 just prior to leaving, were you or -- did you take
    24 any medicine or Patsy take any medicine?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember anything
    0188
    1 about that.
    2 LOU SMIT: You know, to calm her down or
    3 anything like that?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, we didn't have anything
    5 like that.
    6 LOU SMIT: So then you go to the Fernies.
    7 Can you just kind of remember? This would have
    8 been during the afternoon. Can you just remember
    9 basically what you did as a family, Patsy and
    10 yourself?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember much. I mean,
    12 we went to the Fernie's house, we were in the
    13 living room. The police might have been there. I
    14 know we had a police officer 24 hours a day, which
    15 we felt made us feel secure. We were very afraid.
    16 LOU SMIT: Of?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Of the killer or who was
    18 after us, who was trying to harm us. Were they
    19 going to harm Burke. We were frightened. And
    20 having the policeman there was very comforting. I
    21 remember that. (INAUDIBLE) you leave, I don't
    22 know.
    23 But we pretty much just stayed in the
    24 living room. People came in, or people were
    25 coming. Dr. Bob came at some point that day. I
    0189
    1 don't remember when. I mean, there was just --
    2 from that point for several days it's kind of just
    3 a blur. We were in the Fernie's house. There were
    4 lots of people. (INAUDIBLE).
    5 LOU SMIT: At that point did you get any
    6 medications for yourself or for Patsy?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: You know I think we did, yeah.
    8 But I don't remember specifically. At that time we
    9 didn't take any medication. It just didn't occur
    10 to us that there was that option. But I think
    11 fairly early on we got some kind of prescription.
    12 Whatever it was, I don't remember. But I'm sure I
    13 had a drink or two or three.
    14 LOU SMIT: What did you drink?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. But it would
    16 have been a hard drink.
    17 LOU SMIT: Did you take any medications
    18 yourself?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. If they
    20 were available, I'm sure I did. But I don't
    21 remember at what point I started taking it.
    22 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I think they got her on
    24 medication fairly quickly.
    25 LOU SMIT: Do you know what it was? Do
    0190
    1 you have any idea at all?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) well it was
    3 probably Dr. Bob, who's the physician there for
    4 the family; a pediatrician. A friend of ours.
    5 Cause I remember she came there and she was with
    6 her. I'm sure she (INAUDIBLE).
    7 But there were people, some very good
    8 charity (INAUDIBLE) who was with us and helped a
    9 lot.
    10 LOU SMIT: Do you remember the first night?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember trying to sleep on
    12 the floor. (INAUDIBLE). I think she was sleeping
    13 on the (INAUDIBLE) in agony.
    14 LOU SMIT: What was your interaction with
    15 your wife at that time, or even earlier? Did you
    16 have much interaction?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think so. I mean, she was
    18 in shock, I'm sure. I mean, I really don't
    19 remember much that day. I remember sitting there
    20 talking to Linda Arndt and Larry Mason. I don't
    21 remember if it was that afternoon or the next day.
    22 But it was within the time period.
    23 I stayed on the couch. I knew they came and they
    24 took us down to her bedroom and the basement to
    25 talk to us privately because there were a lot of
    0191
    1 people around.
    2 LOU SMIT: Do you remember what you
    3 discussed down there at that time?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't.
    5 LOU SMIT: Whether to contact the police
    6 or whether they would contact you or whether to
    7 come in for an interview?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No. The only time I remember
    9 them asking us to come in for an interview, I
    10 think it was the next day Linda Arndt and Larry
    11 Mason had come and they were sitting on the couch
    12 and we talked for while. And they said, (Can you
    13 come to the police station.̃ And I said, (I don't
    14 think I can do that physically. Can you just come
    15 here?̃ and they said no, you need to go to the
    16 police station. I remember that.
    17 I remember Dr. Bob saying that Patsy was in no
    18 condition to go out of this house. (INAUDIBLE)
    19 talking, come here talk to (INAUDIBLE) I just
    20 can't leave.
    21 LOU SMIT: Was anything said about that
    22 at this time? Did they try to talk you through --
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: We said, (Why do we have
    24 to go there? Why can't you come here.̃ And they
    25 said, (Oh, we have records and we might have to
    0192
    1 pull the file out and look at it.̃
    2 All we knew is that we couldn't physically get up
    3 and go downtown to the police station.
    4 LOU SMIT: Did you actually wear the same
    5 clothing you had on that day? Or did you take
    6 clothing with you?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't take any clothes
    8 with me. I just left. I don't know how long I wore
    9 those clothes. People took care of us. That's all
    10 I remember.
    11 LOU SMIT: I know that relatives started
    12 coming at that particular time too. How were they
    13 notified?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. I know my
    15 brother came; Rod (INAUDIBLE), a good friend from
    16 Atlanta.
    17 LOU SMIT: Your brother is Jeff?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. I don't remember
    19 calling him. I probably did. But I don't remember.
    20 I'm sure I probably called him that morning; the
    21 morning of the 26th. But I don't specifically
    22 remember doing it. But I'm sure I did.
    23 LOU SMIT: Was someone in charge of, more
    24 or less, the arrangements to bring JonBenet to
    25 Atlanta?
    0193
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we got in touch with
    2 the funeral home here, that was wonderful. I went
    3 out -- it might have been my brother and took care
    4 of everything. You know, there were people doing
    5 things for us. Our minister from Atlanta called
    6 and said he would be available at any time
    7 whenever we needed him. So we just kind of knew
    8 that was taken care of.
    9 When Beth died we got a cemetery plot.
    10 (INAUDIBLE).
    11 LOU SMIT: What kind of arrangements were
    12 made with the airlines to go down there? Do you
    13 remember that or was it just --
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: For us to go?
    15 LOU SMIT: Right.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember (INAUDIBLE) who
    17 I worked for, was great. They called; and my boss
    18 called and said they would do anything, anything I
    19 needed. I remember they called and said they were
    20 going to send -- I don't know, it just happened
    21 that they called and said they were going to send
    22 an airplane to pick us up; which I was really
    23 touched by.
    24 LOU SMIT: Had you been in contact with
    25 Lockheed or anything? Was there any protocol or
    0194
    1 procedure? You were an executive.
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't even remember
    3 how they became aware of it. I'm sure somebody
    4 told them.
    5 LOU SMIT: Is there a protocol for
    6 (INAUDIBLE)?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Lockheed is surprisingly
    8 not very security conscious. I mean, I kind of
    9 noticed this afterwards. You have to be a higher
    10 level and I was a group president, and at that
    11 level doesn't pay for a security alarm in your
    12 home; three (INAUDIBLE) bucks, great. At that
    13 level (INAUDIBLE) paid for a full-time guard,
    14 frankly.
    15 For some reason it didn't seem, looking back on it
    16 now, my God that's (INAUDIBLE) more as a big
    17 industrial defense contractor why would they want
    18 they be more security conscious. But they were
    19 wonderful to us. But they arranged for us to get
    20 back to Atlanta.
    21 These guys just set it up. The group president
    22 told me, he said, you do whatever you need to do.
    23 And so they called up the aviation department and
    24 said, (INAUDIBLE) type of plane you got out in
    25 Colorado. Can you get that approved. (INAUDIBLE)?
    0195
    1 He didn't specifically approve that, but that's
    2 what they sent.
    3 So they sent out the (INAUDIBLE) That was just a
    4 really nice gesture because we didn't know how we
    5 were going to get back to Atlanta. We just knew we
    6 had to get back and that just kind of popped up.
    7 Whew.
    8 LOU SMIT: When you get back to Atlanta,
    9 and I have a few more questions, so just hold on.
    10 When you get to Atlanta, and then you (INAUDIBLE)
    11 for some time in Atlanta you have that conflict
    12 between White. And I know you were probably good
    13 friends --
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    15 LOU SMIT: -- at some particular point.
    16 Just what caused this? Do you know Fleet that
    17 well?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I thought I did. We knew
    19 him for three years, or two years; two or three
    20 years. We sailed together under some fairly
    21 adverse circumstances. Fleet was always -- got to
    22 know each other. We talked a lot, but it was
    23 always about sailing. He kind of got me on that.
    24 (INAUDIBLE).
    25 But Fleet was, and some of this is in retrospect,
    0196
    1 but apparently John Fernie wouldn't let him get on
    2 the plane. He was going to (INAUDIBLE) while he
    3 was flying back to Atlanta and John Fernie
    4 wouldn't let him get on the airplane. We were told
    5 because he was just crazy.
    6 LOU SMIT: I thought you said you were
    7 driven out there? What condition was this?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: He would tend to panic a bit.
    9 Not be controlled in a stressful situation. One
    10 time we were sailing, we had come in, we just
    11 crossed Lake Michigan and we had (INAUDIBLE) big
    12 time and it was like 30, 40 knots and we were hold
    13 in this harbor and dropped our sails and had our
    14 engine on and we floated right in. And don't think
    15 there were any waves because the wind was blowing
    16 across the (INAUDIBLE) and the engine stopped.
    17 So here we are about 40 knots from land and no
    18 power. And I was steering and (INAUDIBLE) like,
    19 what are you doing, there's this big break wall
    20 coming at you. And so Fleet started screaming at
    21 these boats passing us, (Throw us a line, throw us
    22 a line.̃ And so they tried.
    23 But if we had just thought a little bit together,
    24 there's a lot of things we could have done. We
    25 could have put the sail back up. We could have
    0197
    1 thrown out an anchor. We could have tried to get
    2 the line undone. But Fleet just immediately
    3 started screaming for help and I was just there
    4 trying to keep the boat from pointing in the wind.
    5 And then the Coast Guard came, fortunately, and
    6 they were incredibly professional as they pulled
    7 up along side of us. They were there with these
    8 lines. And they said -- and Fleet was standing
    9 with the lines, (Do not throw that line. Do not
    10 throw that line. We will throw that line. Do not
    11 throw that line.̃ Whew, over go the line.
    12 But there have been cases like that. There were a
    13 couple of other similar type of circumstances he
    14 just seemed to kind of go --
    15 LOU SMIT: Why did he go up to Atlanta?
    16 What was his reason?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: His biggest issue was that we
    18 retained attorneys. And he hated that. I don't
    19 know why.
    20 LOU SMIT: What was his big beef with that?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I remember
    22 Priscilla saying, (You don't need attorneys. We're
    23 next (INAUDIBLE), we're not going to get
    24 attorneys.̃ I think he wanted to speak up. Because
    25 by that time the media circus was rolling full
    0198
    1 speed ahead. He wanted us to speak out. He wanted
    2 us to -- and he was the one that advocated a
    3 (INAUDIBLE) our interview (INAUDIBLE).
    4 LOU SMIT: Tell me how that kind of came
    5 about. Because that's been something that's been
    6 brought up a few times.
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: You know, I don't remember
    8 exactly. But I remember he was just rabid about
    9 what the media was saying about us and we needed
    10 to defend ourselves. And we needed to go on
    11 television and --
    12 LOU SMIT: Who actually made the arrangements
    13 for that?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think I decided to
    15 do it. And Bob Westmoreland, who is a friend of
    16 the president of CNN, he was around us all that
    17 time too, Bob was. And he said well I can call
    18 whoever it was, and that was a logical place for
    19 us to do it.
    20 And so he called the president of CNN. I remember
    21 at that time, which was only days after that, that
    22 the president of CNN (INAUDIBLE) these people
    23 (INAUDIBLE). Do you know this guy, and Rod said,
    24 I'd stake my life on it. There's no way he could
    25 have done this.
    0199
    1 And so the president of CNN kind of set up the
    2 interview. But it was at Fleets insistence. I
    3 remember he was (INAUDIBLE). Once before we really
    4 felt like we were making our own decisions for any
    5 kind of sanity.
    6 But you feel this (INAUDIBLE) kind of coming at
    7 you. And were weren't really aware of it other
    8 than they were at the church. They were literally
    9 at the gravesite, all these guys with big cameras
    10 and telephoto lenses. And you start to realize
    11 that there's this frenzy going on around you.
    12 LOU SMIT: So then what was the purpose
    13 of the interview?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think in my mind we
    15 had gotten a lot of letters and sympathy cards and
    16 just wonderful outpouring of support and I wanted
    17 to thank people. There had been a wonderful
    18 article in the Atlanta Constitution that said,
    19 (Georgia bids goodbye to JonBenet̃ and I was very
    20 touched by that.
    21 I started to realize that this was touching a lot
    22 of people, and I just wanted to thank them. And
    23 this pressure that we were getting from Fleet and
    24 Priscilla just to speak up for ourselves and
    25 defend ourselves. And that, as I remember, it was
    0200
    1 Fleet's pounding on that. (INAUDIBLE) very happy.
    2 I mean there was that much pressure on us to do
    3 it.
    4 LOU SMIT: Why did you actually (INAUDIBLE)?
    5 What was it like to have your personal
    6 (INAUDIBLE)? Because I knew initially it said you
    7 were real upset or something about the way things
    8 were going. But what actually prompted you to
    9 (INAUDIBLE)?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, as I said, we came
    11 back
    12 from Boulder, back from Atlanta to Boulder, with
    13 the expressed purpose to coming to help with the
    14 investigation. I know it was very upsetting Patsy
    15 to come back. (INAUDIBLE) Things are not as you
    16 would think they are; you need to be aware of what
    17 was going on.
    18 Like in April, I think the objective was that it
    19 was being used so much against us: that we weren't
    20 cooperating with the police; we weren't helping
    21 with the investigation; that it was in our minds
    22 not all what our intentions were. That we finally,
    23 we wanted to do it.
    24 And then we came back and I can remember sitting
    25 around the table in Bynum's office and people
    0201
    1 explaining how it worked. But I was convinced I'd
    2 better listen to people and (INAUDIBLE). But I
    3 didn't. I was growing more and more convinced that
    4 were in, as I say, not only a focus of the
    5 investigation, but the only focus of the
    6 investigation.
    7 So we, frankly, just said, okay, we'll do whatever
    8 you guys tell us to do. (INAUDIBLE). And I think
    9 we were always very clear to them and we were
    10 clear what our intentions were. And I think our
    11 only position was: we would talk to the police as
    12 long as there's a representative (INAUDIBLE)
    13 there.
    14 And that was always a sticking point. I don't
    15 remember exactly why, but we developed a very
    16 strong distrust of their motives and objectives
    17 earlier on. And I remember that was one of the
    18 conditions.
    19 And then (INAUDIBLE) we agreed on to do it and we
    20 said, okay, let's do it at ten in the morning or
    21 whatever time it was. And they said, no, we want
    22 you to come in at Friday night at six p.m. I said
    23 whew.
    24 So these attempts to do it, in our perspective we
    25 were met with our good faith effort in return. And
    0202
    1 the April thing (INAUDIBLE) we had been so
    2 criticized with this, which is unfair. But let's
    3 get it over with. We're not going to speak out
    4 until. (INAUDIBLE) because we didn't feel that was
    5 right for us to (INAUDIBLE) and talk to the press
    6 or anyone else before we talked to the police.
    7 And so, in our minds, we wanted to help, to do
    8 what we could to help, despite what the risks were
    9 that these guys were telling us about. But all I
    10 remember (INAUDIBLE) today, the years go forth. I
    11 think we (INAUDIBLE) the district attorney
    12 representative. And Patsy spent six hours and I
    13 spent three hours or whatever it was.
    14 And our plan, and we did, is when it came out, we
    15 said, okay, we talked to the police. I don't know
    16 how much else we said, but that was the first time
    17 we could publicly represent ourselves against this
    18 basic avalanche of (INAUDIBLE) to crucify us.
    19 MIKE KANE: Let me just verify that.
    20 Because I think there was something that I saw in
    21 my file, that you had a real hang up with the DA.
    22 What was it you were worrying about having the DA?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it wasn't my mind, it
    24 was basically what was being recommended. But it
    25 did make sense. And that was, that they felt the
    0203
    1 police were so biased against us that they wanted
    2 an independent, objective listener in the room so
    3 any information that came out of that room to you
    4 was not presented by a biased speaker.
    5 And all he did was sit there. I don't think he
    6 asked one question.
    7 BRYAN MORGAN: He didn't.
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: They felt that was very
    9 important. That was the only requirement that we
    10 had. And the police wouldn't agree to it. I mean
    11 there's a sequence of suspicious behavior on
    12 (INAUDIBLE) that made us extremely cautious, even
    13 though we wanted desperately to find out who
    14 killed our daughter and (INAUDIBLE).
    15 MIKE KANE: Did you ever feel like you were
    16 playing right into that? In other words, just kind
    17 of catch 22?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Sure. All we were doing was
    19 being pressured. There were media leaks --
    20 MIKE KANE: No, I mean it's a catch 22 if
    21 you wanted to dispel suspicion and then you do
    22 something that just creates more suspicion, like
    23 not talk.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: We didn't not talk. We talked for
    25 hours on the 26th, we talked for hours on the
    0204
    1 27th. We said we'll answer question (INAUDIBLE)
    2 properly. And we made offers to come in as long as
    3 the district attorney was present (INAUDIBLE).
    4 And it sure was frustrating to us. Because we knew
    5 we were getting --
    6 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't know the purpose of
    7 this frankly, but there is a lengthy record of
    8 requests of everything from blood samples to
    9 interviews with privileged personnel like doctors
    10 and nurses to a half dozen handwriting samples to
    11 (INAUDIBLE). Every single one was granted in that
    12 period of time.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably.
    14 BRYAN MORGAN: I repeat, I don't understand
    15 the point of this questioning, and I'm not trying
    16 to act the lawyers argument. But there is some
    17 flesh on bones kind of statement that we would
    18 cooperate to the extent we could.
    19 MIKE KANE: My purpose is that, as I said,
    20 in opening to you, these are questions that
    21 somebody might ask down the road if we have an
    22 intruder sitting in the defense chair.
    23 BRYAN MORGAN: Well, I object.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we as the parents of
    25 the murdered child wanted to be there and help
    0205
    1 them solve the crime. People that we respected
    2 were advising us. And evidence began to grow that
    3 they were right. And we saw no evidence that they
    4 were wrong.
    5 We invited Commander Becker to come to our home.
    6 It was like, okay, let's start this thing fresh.
    7 You come to our home. Let's sit down and have a
    8 cup of coffee, get to know each other. And you
    9 know what the police response back we got was? I'm
    10 not going to their home, that would be to their
    11 advantage.
    12 Well what does that tell you? That would be to
    13 their advantage. I mean we're, what are we
    14 fighting here or are we trying to solve a crime.
    15 So there was just no, not one demonstrable
    16 instance of anything that we could put confidence
    17 in that we were inviting anything but a lynch mob.
    18 MIKE KANE: I just want to clarify that.
    19 LOU SMIT: Do you have anything else?
    20 MIKE KANE: No, not (INAUDIBLE).
    21 LOU SMIT: No, go ahead.
    22 MIKE KANE: No, no. Not in this case.
    23 LOU SMIT: Okay. I think that's kind of a
    24 chronological that kind of gets up to the hearing.
    25 Now I would like to go over the specifics. And
    0206
    1 this here is academic questions about heating. And
    2 you brought up this that you heard something about
    3 pineapple. Now what have you heard about
    4 pineapple?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we were asked if JonBenet
    6 had eaten any pineapple, because apparently it was
    7 found in her system. I don't know if the police
    8 asked us that or we saw it on television or the
    9 question came up. I don't remember her eating
    10 pineapple, I don't remember pineapple at Fleet's
    11 or the White's house. It sort of been a very
    12 logical hors d'oeuvres. I don't' remember
    13 specifically if it was there.
    14 I think part of the question was what did she eat
    15 when she got home, and I'm sure she didn't because
    16 she was absolutely sound asleep. So I don't know
    17 nothing about the basis of the question.
    18 LOU SMIT: That's why I wanted to show you
    19 the picture. I just didn't know what you had heard
    20 of this thing. I'm going to show you what's called
    21 a picture of 414.
    22 This is a photograph that's taken of the dining
    23 room table. And it shows various things on the
    24 dining room table. Do you see the gingerbread
    25 houses? And then you see a bowl on that
    0207
    1 (INAUDIBLE)?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    3 LOU SMIT: What else do you see on there?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I see a glass with what looks
    5 like (INAUDIBLE). Tissues on the glass. A couple
    6 knives.
    7 LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how that got
    8 on that table?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: It might have been (INAUDIBLE)
    10 that's a big bowl.
    11 LOU SMIT: I'm going to straighten out the
    12 picture so we'll want a close up of everything.
    13 This is a photograph of 417. what does that
    14 represent there?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a large spoon, not
    16 a teaspoon. It looks like Patsy's good silver. I
    17 guess that could be pineapple, I can't tell. But
    18 it could be. Some people (INAUDIBLE) pineapple to
    19 make it old and there's this teabag in an empty
    20 glass. I can't tell, but it looks like there is
    21 some milk or something.
    22 LOU SMIT: Who do you know would eat
    23 pineapple like that? Do you have any idea?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids like pineapple,
    25 but that's a big bowl and this is a big spoon and
    0208
    1 I can't imagine that the kids would have something
    2 like that at any time. Certainly not with iced
    3 tea, I don't think. They don't even drink iced
    4 tea. I think they do not. (INAUDIBLE) yeah.
    5 LOU SMIT: John, I just wanted to kind
    6 of check back with you. Now these obviously are
    7 crime scene photographs.
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    9 LOU SMIT: And this is the condition that
    10 things are found when pictures are taken. We're
    11 trying to explain that, even in correlating it
    12 with your daughter (INAUDIBLE)?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Could that have been
    14 gotten out by someone who was in there that
    15 morning, I wonder?
    16 LOU SMIT: I don't know. That's a thought.
    17 What do you think?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I mean I don't --
    19 that's just a huge --
    20 LOU SMIT: You mean somebody who had been
    21 (INAUDIBLE)?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, the Fernies or the
    23 Whites or, there were a lot of people in the house
    24 that were -- that would not be like us to leave
    25 that. Certainly not leaving the next morning on a
    0209
    1 trip, to leave it like that, out.
    2 That's a big bowl, whatever it is, if it's
    3 pineapple.
    4 MIKE KANE: Do you recognize the bowl?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. I recognize
    6 the spoon, because it's a big serving spoon. It's
    7 not like a teaspoon. And that could be one of our
    8 bowls. We had white bowls like that. Patsy would
    9 recognize it for sure. It looks like our glass.
    10 LOU SMIT: Who would drink tea with a teabag
    11 in the glass?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Somebody who would drink tea,
    13 I guess. I don't know. I don't drink tea. Burke
    14 will drink sweet ice tea. I don't remember if
    15 JonBenet did, if she did.
    16 I mean, even for someone who's there and to get
    17 out that big of a bowl and put that much pineapple
    18 in it and just leave it. That doesn't make sense.
    19 MIKE KANE: That was a serving spoon?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: It's a big serving spoon. I
    21 mean don't even have an answer.
    22 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) taken out and put
    23 back in the refrigerator. Could that have
    24 (INAUDIBLE) where it had been?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible.
    0210
    1 MIKE KANE: Any other tea drinkers in the
    2 house?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy drank tea. She likes
    4 sweet ice tea.
    5 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe, not much, once
    7 in a while.
    8 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) sweet ice tea, you
    9 can put a tea bag (INAUDIBLE)?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, no. With sweet ice tea
    11 you have to make the tea. And I don't know how you
    12 do it, but she puts sugar in it or something. It's
    13 a southern drink. But, no.
    14 I mean, first of all, it was hot tea. You
    15 wouldn't it in that kind of a glass, it was weird.
    16 That doesn't make sense.
    17 LOU SMIT: You see, this is the trouble.
    18 That we don't know. We don't know the answer. We
    19 just didn't know whether it was like that or
    20 (INAUDIBLE) around it.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I would almost think that
    22 (INAUDIBLE) that's Patsy's too. But that would not
    23 have been left out by us where it would be for any
    24 extended period of time. And that is a huge bowl
    25 of pineapple or whatever it is and a big spoon.
    0211
    1 LOU SMIT: On the 26th, that was the
    2 morning of the 26th, John, do you remember eating
    3 at that time?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't, but -- No, I don't.
    5 I think there was -- I don't know, I don't
    6 remember. There might have been some coffee made
    7 or something like that. I don't think anybody was
    8 feeling to eat.
    9 LOU SMIT: Where would you keep pineapple?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: If it were opened, it would
    11 have been kept in the refrigerator.
    12 LOU SMIT: And that's the walk-in one?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. If it were not open,
    14 it would be in the pantry. This little (INAUDIBLE)
    15 was here with the cans. (INAUDIBLE) next to the
    16 cans. I mean it doesn't look like -- the kids
    17 wouldn't have gotten that thing and the spoon
    18 down. I mean, that's huge for a child's mouth.
    19 They would have gotten a little spoon or a fork.
    20 They wouldn't have fixed themselves that big a
    21 bowl.
    22 LOU SMIT: Is this the first time that
    23 you knew about this?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: It's the first time I've
    25 seen it, yeah.
    0212
    1 DAVID WILLIAMS: Can we take a look at the
    2 photographs?
    3 MIKE KANE: While your doing that, could
    4 I ask, you said you had cans of pineapple normally
    5 would be kept in that pantry that's open. Do you
    6 ever by fresh pineapple (INAUDIBLE)?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: We did not, not that I remember.
    8 No. I mean, we had --
    9 LOU SMIT: What other kind of fruit did you
    10 have around?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we had apples around;
    12 bananas, a lot of bananas. The kids loved
    13 bananas. Grapes, green grapes.
    14 LOU SMIT: Where would (INAUDIBLE)
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: The bananas would be hanging
    16 from a little stand that was kept in the kitchen
    17 over in this area. The grapes tended to be in the
    18 refrigerator. I don't remember specifically.
    19 LOU SMIT: Do you know if JonBenet would
    20 ever get up in the middle of the night to eat
    21 these things?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. Not -- no.
    23 DAVID WILLIAMS: Was that fresh? pineapple?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. But, no, that would be,
    25 certainly not a glass that with a teabag in it. It
    0213
    1 absolutely doesn't make any sense for the kids to
    2 have left that there.
    3 LOU SMIT: Well we can come back to that later. I
    4 do want to talk about that a little bit later. You
    5 got any more questions?
    6 MIKE KANE: No.
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: But, I mean, it's strange.
    8 It doesn't (INAUDIBLE).
    9 LOU SMIT: This is also another picture,
    10 picture 416, which also shows the same bowl, only
    11 it shows the gingerbread house, and there's some
    12 Kleenex on there and things of that nature. So I
    13 don't know. Is that the gingerbread house that the
    14 children were making?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It looks like it. This
    16 was like in -- Patsy would know. I'm not sure why
    17 a Kleenex box is there either. That's not normal
    18 for a Kleenex box.
    19 LOU SMIT: What do you say about that?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I guess it doesn't
    21 belong on the kitchen table. I don't know where it
    22 came from, but that's now it aught to be.
    23 LOU SMIT: Well, I'm sure that Patsy is
    24 going to be asked the same question. Maybe she
    25 remembers more on this or not. Is it possible that
    0214
    1 that could have been left out, maybe because to be
    2 (INAUDIBLE)?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I doubt it very much.
    4 LOU SMIT: Whey do you say that?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we were leaving town
    6 the next morning. We would be gone nearly for a
    7 week and a half. I've never seen a teabag left in
    8 a glass like that in our house. I know we're not
    9 the neatest people in the world, but I don't think
    10 we'd have left an open bowl of fruit sitting on
    11 the kitchen table.
    12 LOU SMIT: All right. I'll get back to this
    13 just a little bit later.
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Can I see the (INAUDIBLE).
    15 LOU SMIT: Sure. I'd like to talk about
    16 the window rail and the broken window that's at
    17 the scene. Do you have any other areas you'd like
    18 to (INAUDIBLE)? The reason that I want to talk
    19 about that is, in your mind there could be a
    20 potential point that (INAUDIBLE)? You're not sure
    21 that we ran across that with you. Now let's just
    22 talk about that a little bit.
    23 You say that earlier you had gone in that same
    24 window. Now, can you remember when this was or the
    25 circumstances surrounding doing that?
    0215
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I can't remember
    2 exactly when it was. I've done it maybe twice,
    3 maybe three times during the period of time we
    4 owned the house. It was a way that I could get in
    5 the house if we didn't have a key that was least
    6 expensive to repair. It was one single pane of
    7 non-insulated glass and.
    8 I think that was done one summer I came back late
    9 in the evening. Patsy and the kids were delayed,
    10 and for some reason I didn't have a key. I don't
    11 know why. But usually if I don't drive my car I
    12 take a cab or something to the airport and back,
    13 and I don't have a key and the house keys are on
    14 the key ring.
    15 But that was the time, it was in the summer I had
    16 come back from a business trip. I think I had a
    17 suit on. It was late. It was like about 11:30 at
    18 night. It was dark. It was (INAUDIBLE) Amazingly I
    19 took the grill off. I think I probably kicked the
    20 window with my foot and then reached in and
    21 unlatched the window.
    22 LOU SMIT: Were you alone at that time?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    24 LOU SMIT: First of all, now when you
    25 drove home, did you drive home when you got in
    0216
    1 that late that night?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall specifically.
    3 But I think I took (INAUDIBLE) and it dropped me
    4 off.
    5 LOU SMIT: And then they dropped you off
    6 there at the house.
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    8 LOU SMIT: So you don't have a garage
    9 door opener at that time, is that what you're
    10 saying?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    12 LOU SMIT: Do you normally have a garage
    13 opener?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: In my car. See I have a
    15 garage opener I can get in the house because we
    16 never lock the door in the garage that goes in the
    17 house. And that was 98 percent of the time how I
    18 got in the house.
    19 LOU SMIT: Where would (INAUDIBLE)?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably the garage, in the
    21 garage through that door. And I think I had given
    22 my key to John Andrew or somebody. I didn't have
    23 it. Very rarely that I use the key to unlock the
    24 door into my house because I've always had a
    25 garage --
    0217
    1 LOU SMIT: You mean it's normal in the car?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    3 LOU SMIT: Okay. And at that time of night I
    4 assume you didn't want to call a locksmith for
    5 that?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I didn't have any way
    7 to call. (INAUDIBLE) I remember it was late. I
    8 could go to my neighbors.
    9 LOU SMIT: And you say the family was gone?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    11 LOU SMIT: And did you ever keys like to the
    12 neighbors or anything?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well The Barnhills had a key.
    14 I don't know if know if I remember that at the
    15 time. It was late. I'm sure I wouldn't have gone
    16 over anyway. But I always wished I would have done
    17 is bury one somewhere under a rock or something.
    18 One time we had one under a statute. But could
    19 also be used by somebody (INAUDIBLE) So we moved
    20 it.
    21 LOU SMIT: Now, I'm going to show you some
    22 photographs, if I can? These photographs I'm
    23 showing you here right now -- initially when the
    24 police were there during the kidnapping time
    25 period, some kind of crime scene techs did come in
    0218
    1 and they took pictures and they did some work
    2 inside the house.
    3 But picture number 92 was taken fairly early on.
    4 Can you tell me what area that is of the house?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's the back patio,
    6 looking at the house from the south side. This is
    7 the door into the dining room. This is the door
    8 into the hallway, the back hallway. And this was
    9 early that morning?
    10 LOU SMIT: Do you notice anything unusual
    11 there or anything out of place?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: There's not a (INAUDIBLE)
    13 for one thing. That window looks (INAUDIBLE) maybe
    14 it's just a shadow.
    15 LOU SMIT: I'm going to show you some
    16 more of those photos that (INAUDIBLE) kidnapping
    17 period.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: This is one of the kid's
    19 toys. (INAUDIBLE).
    20 LOU SMIT: Well, I know (INAUDIBLE) I'll
    21 show it to you now and then I'll tell you what it
    22 is. This here photograph is also of that window
    23 area. But these were taken somewhat later. And
    24 these are just crime scene photographs also.
    25 Now these are photographs 418, 419, 420, 421,
    0219
    1 422,423, 424 and 425. I'm going to show you these
    2 and see if, first of all, can you explain to me
    3 how you got into that window, while I'm showing
    4 (INAUDIBLE)?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well you can just lift the
    6 grate out and slide it out, lay it on the ground
    7 and then jump down into the well.
    8 LOU SMIT: And when you slide it out, what
    9 do you mean by sliding it out?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think there was a
    11 couple of supports on the side (INAUDIBLE) went
    12 here and just lift that up. I didn't lift it up.
    13 LOU SMIT: Right, and then straight down.
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I probably lifted it
    15 up and just pulled it away from the hole.
    16 LOU SMIT: And then did you have any trouble
    17 getting in?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    19 LOU SMIT: And how much do you weigh? Right
    20 about then?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably about what I do now:
    22 195.
    23 LOU SMIT: And you're how tall?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Five ten, nine and a half.
    25 LOU SMIT: And you say that you went down
    0220
    1 in there and you had taken your clothing off?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I had my suit on, so I took
    3 my suit coat off and my pants off so I wouldn't
    4 (INAUDIBLE). I might have taken my shirt off. But
    5 it's not difficult to get in. it would be
    6 difficult to get out; you needed something to step
    7 on. But basically you just open the window and
    8 just let yourself drop down on the ground.
    9 LOU SMIT: Have you ever gotten out that
    10 way?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I've (INAUDIBLE) the house.
    12 LOU SMIT: Do you know anyone that has?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.
    14 LOU SMIT: So you say you just went down into
    15 the window well where you kicked out the window.
    16 Then what did you have to do? What's your next
    17 step?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Then you had reach in to
    19 unlatch the window, and if it's stuck, you just
    20 pop it open. I mean, I don't remember if I slid in
    21 face forward or a turned around. Probably turned
    22 around, turn around backwards and put your needs
    23 on the ledge here and let your feet in and then
    24 just drop down. That's probably how I would have
    25 done it?
    0221
    1 LOU SMIT: Now you say that the time that
    2 you went into this window, that was nighttime?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    4 LOU SMIT: And you say it was about 11:30 at
    5 night? Obviously it would be dark at that time?
    6 What's your recollection of the difficulty of
    7 getting into the house then?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I guess I remember the
    9 unknown harm is when you drop the last foot or two
    10 in the basement. Because that basement room is
    11 always kind of a mess. You're not quite sure what
    12 you're going to land in.
    13 Once I was in the basement I could find my way to
    14 the door. The light switch is over by the door. So
    15 you got to be careful because there's a lot of
    16 junk in there.
    17 LOU SMIT: But you could make your way
    18 around? Would you be able to even see?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I remember being able
    20 to see real well, I think. Cause there's not
    21 (INAUDIBLE) light in that basement room. So unless
    22 there was light left on or something in one of the
    23 rooms you wouldn't have been --
    24 LOU SMIT: So even if (INAUDIBLE) you know
    25 where it was? Where's the light switch at if you
    0222
    1 look at the diagram?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right here.
    3 LOU SMIT: So you're pointing just to the
    4 end of the train room table there?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. The thing that always
    6 puzzled me was, when we had the house living room
    7 was all done and we were trying to get it back
    8 together, we kept talking about that we needed to
    9 replace the closet doors that's damaged in the
    10 basement. Couldn't fix it. I can remember what
    11 closet door was damaged.
    12 Apparently I finally found it; Ellis had cut in
    13 half. But I think it was either this door or this
    14 door. It was a heavy door. Because we had an
    15 elevator here and we took it out.
    16 LOU SMIT: Right. Right.
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: And it was one of those
    18 heavy doors. And I was very curious as to what
    19 were they talking about the door was damaged, they
    20 had to replace it. And I looked at that door in
    21 Ellis's office and it was slit. But it didn't look
    22 like it was -- I mean my suspicion was, that it
    23 was an elevator door that you can open from the
    24 outside but I don't think you can open it from the
    25 inside. So I was just wondering that if something
    0223
    1 got in there and couldn't get out, did they --
    2 LOU SMIT: Push it.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: -- push and break it open.
    4 It didn't look like that to me. But paneling was
    5 split. But I couldn't tell what was going on
    6 around the latch. But that was very perplexing to
    7 me. Whey was that door damaged? Because it was not
    8 damaged, to my knowledge.
    9 LOU SMIT: Have you run any tests on that
    10 to see if it was from the inside or outside or
    11 anything?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Ellis has it. Now it's in
    13 storage. But that's an item of curiosity.
    14 LOU SMIT: And, like anything else, those
    15 items can be attached. You know, they got great
    16 labs and the labs are free, and all of that stuff
    17 can be done. And it would be interesting to see if
    18 it was from the inside or the outside.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Because if it was that
    20 door, and it was from the inside --
    21 LOU SMIT: It may or may not show you
    22 something.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    24 LOU SMIT: But at least it would be
    25 something that you should look at.
    0224
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    2 LOU SMIT: And has the door fingerprinted
    3 anyway?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.
    5 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't believe we have. I
    6 think when we discovered it, it was something was
    7 unfamiliar with. We gave Ellis instructions to get
    8 it and preserve it in whatever state it was that
    9 he found it. I don't know exactly when detectives
    10 (INAUDIBLE) but that was some time after the house
    11 was released to us.
    12 LOU SMIT: Right.
    13 BRYAN MORGAN: We would be happy to turn
    14 over the door who wants to do any kind tests.
    15 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE). In fact, that's
    16 something that laboratories could do and they got
    17 the equipment to do all the fingerprinting stuff
    18 on three. Again, if we can speak with him.
    19 BRYAN MORGAN: When he got it, then how
    20 he tried to preserve it. Sure. But we are happy to
    21 make that available.
    22 LOU SMIT: Great. Great. But again, that
    23 is the window well. And I'm going to show you some
    24 photographs of the window well. And again those
    25 are photographs number 418 through 425.
    0225
    1 MIKE KANE: Can I ask a quick question of
    2 John?
    3 LOU SMIT: Sure, go ahead.
    4 MIKE KANE: You said that this was in the
    5 summer. Can you be more specific (INAUDIBLE). You
    6 said that Patsy probably got delayed?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't remember exactly.
    8 I'm just guessing.
    9 MIKE KANE: When did she usually go up to --
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: They went up usually in the
    11 first week of June then came back in the last week
    12 of August. So it would have been in that
    13 timeframe.
    14 MIKE KANE: And she always (INAUDIBLE)?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    16 LOU SMIT: I'll start off first with these.
    17 These are photographs that were taken on the 30th
    18 of December. And this is a series of photographs,
    19 like I mentioned 418 through 425.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I was really (INAUDIBLE) the
    21 ivy is under the grate.
    22 LOU SMIT: And what does that signify to
    23 you?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: That it had been moved fairly
    25 recently. I would have expected that the ivy to be
    0226
    1 dead. It was (INAUDIBLE) like that
    2 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) because we had seen
    3 that also. And I don't want to mislead you.
    4 Because, obviously all of us have seen that. And
    5 at first we didn't know exactly why that was. But
    6 we think a perhaps an officer may have moved that
    7 grate. So I just wanted you to know that. Because
    8 it's very easy to make the conclusion that it was
    9 done.
    10 But we have had some real discussion on this and
    11 did find out that an officer had moved that grate.
    12 I usually don't tell you whether we know about
    13 that. But otherwise that's misleading.
    14 But that's the same grate in the same area then?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    16 LOU SMIT: Now you replaced that grate
    17 completely with a new grate, is that correct?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think it was replaced,
    19 yeah.
    20 LOU SMIT: A question I'm dying to ask, does
    21 anybody have any photos before the officer thinks
    22 he moved the grate?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    24 DAVID WILLIAMS: We can put an end to this
    25 if the officer had any recollection.
    0227
    1 LOU SMIT: That's something that we're still
    2 looking into.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Can we find out what it is that
    4 (INAUDIBLE) that the dirt and dust had been
    5 disturbed?
    6 LOU SMIT: If that's your observation, then
    7 it's good.
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: When I was there it was July,
    9 that was six months earlier.
    10 LOU SMIT: I would like to just add something
    11 though before we move too much further. I would
    12 like to do that. (INAUDIBLE) the wind was very
    13 strong in that area. Is It possible that the wind
    14 could have done this? That it could have blown
    15 into the --
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Disturb the --
    17 LOU SMIT: Right.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have blown a lot of
    19 dust in there. (INAUDIBLE) to clean it off. I
    20 mean, there was a nasty window well with spider
    21 wells. It was just dirty.
    22 LOU SMIT: And for your information also,
    23 there is some spider webs also. I just want to
    24 make sure that you're not misled.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I appreciate it. I mean these
    0228
    1 spots look clean; cleaner than the rest. That's
    2 glass there. A piece of glass there. I don't know
    3 why -- I mean if there's enough wind, it kinds of
    4 kicks things up. I don't know why this would have
    5 been cleaner than the next two. I wouldn't have
    6 been down there for six months. I would have
    7 expected a more uniform (INAUDIBLE).
    8 That's kind of an odd state to be in too.
    9 LOU SMIT: Do you remember anything
    10 (INAUDIBLE)?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, maybe the top corner
    12 where that little circle thing is.
    13 LOU SMIT: And you're sure the last time
    14 that you were in there was in the summer?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I'm sure.
    16 LOU SMIT: Any questions you'd like to?
    17 MIKE KANE: Well I have a lot of questions
    18 about the things that we've covered. But I just
    19 didn't want interrupt you.
    20 LOU SMIT: Go ahead.
    21 MIKE KANE: I apologize if I ask any
    22 questions that have already been asked. I wanted
    23 to ask you about Mike Bynum and the television
    24 with Diane Sawyer. Did you have any discussions
    25 with him before? Did you know he was going to
    0229
    1 come?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I knew he was going
    3 to do it. I think what he was trying -- they were
    4 after, of course, was to have us talk to him. And
    5 I think Mike felt compelled to make it very clear
    6 that he was the one basically who took control of
    7 the situation earlier on and that he had brought
    8 the attorneys in, and it wasn't the Ramseys, as we
    9 had so widely accused of. I think he wanted to
    10 make that clear. And that was our venue to do
    11 that.
    12 MIKE KANE: So then he talked to you before
    13 he went?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I knew this was going
    15 to happen. But I never saw the program, so I don't
    16 know what was said. I don't know if it was good or
    17 bad. I heard it that it was good.
    18 MIKE KANE: You never saw the program, but
    19 did you see a transcript of it?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. It's too hard to look at
    21 that stuff.
    22 MIKE KANE: All right. Okay, this has been
    23 kind of been covered it but I'm going to go into
    24 it some more. Plane trips, you said that you had
    25 headed to the plane that day, that you were going
    0230
    1 to fly it out. Did you own it and lease it?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I owned it and leased it to
    3 Mountain Aviation Charter to kind of make it pay
    4 for itself.
    5 MIKE KANE: Like a lease?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    7 MIKE KANE: And was that a King Air?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: A King Air; C90 King Air.
    9 MIKE KANE: And that's a twin-engine turbo?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    11 MIKE: How many seats?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: It will seat,
    13 uncomfortably, counting the pilot and six
    14 comfortably.
    15 MIKE KANE: And were there any other
    16 planes that you owned at that time?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I owned a Bonanza. I still do,
    18 which is a small single engine.
    19 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) or a --
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Straight tail.
    21 MIKE KANE: Straight tail?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I bought it, maybe a
    23 year before. (INAUDIBLE) who is another friend of
    24 mine said, this is a great deal; buy it for the
    25 summer and then sell it and not lose a dime.
    0231
    1 MIKE KANE: Was it here in Boulder?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was in Jeffco that I
    3 bought it.
    4 MIKE KANE: Who's the salesman?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Scott Westfall.
    6 MIKE KANE: Do you know a Grady Parsons?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I know the name, but I don't
    8 know why?
    9 MIKE KANE: He's your predecessor.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I think I do. He looked
    11 older.
    12 MIKE KANE: He had (INAUDIBLE)?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, gosh. I didn't know that.
    14 MIKE KANE: Did anybody else fly your
    15 aircraft?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Other than the pilots at
    17 Mountain Aviation, no.
    18 MIKE KANE: And how many pilots flew that
    19 King Air?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably four; maybe four or
    21 five.
    22 MIKE KANE: And your Bonanza? Anybody else
    23 fly it?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Just my brother occasionally.
    25 I know he has recently, but I'm not sure of the
    0232
    1 time.
    2 MIKE KANE: When you flew, did you fly as
    3 pilot command or (INAUDIBLE)?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I flew as pilot command and
    5 he was copilot.
    6 MIKE KANE: So you logged in this and
    7 (INAUDIBLE)?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Yeah.
    9 MIKE KANE: And how often did you fly
    10 (INAUDIBLE)?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I used it may be 60 to
    12 80 hours a year.
    13 MIKE KANE: And was that mostly for business
    14 trips?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was mostly for pleasure.
    16 Once in a while I'd use it for business, but not
    17 very often.
    18 MIKE KANE: When you went on business trips,
    19 did you generally fly commercial?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    21 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    23 MIKE KANE: I noticed there was some
    24 reference about that. That it was a citation or a
    25 Lear, I don't know which one. Did Lockheed know?
    0233
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Lockheed has citations on
    2 the jet, the Centennial, which technically we can
    3 use if we pay for it. (INAUDIBLE) company, but we
    4 can get it.
    5 MIKE KANE: Okay. So those times when you
    6 were in the King Air, it was with your family?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    8 MIKE KANE: You said that you went down
    9 the say before, I guess it was Christmas day, you
    10 went down to prepare. What was your reasons to
    11 cleaning?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean I spend more time on
    13 the airplane on the ground than I do in the air. I
    14 like to keep it clean and polished. And part of it
    15 is just I like airplanes. It's fun to be around
    16 them. And part of it is, if it's clean then you
    17 know if there's a problem, because you can see it
    18 right away. If there's an oil leak or a fuel leak.
    19 I just like it to look -- if it looks right, it is
    20 right. Plus Melinda's, who is my (INAUDIBLE)
    21 fiancTe, who's going to be with us, and I wanted
    22 the airplane to look nice. Make her feel
    23 comfortable. I just like it to be clean.
    24 So I spent some time cleaning. I cleaned the
    25 wheels; I remember that being dirty. Just getting
    0234
    1 ready for a big trip.
    2 MIKE KANE: And what was your family while
    3 you were doing this?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy was home. I guess
    5 the kids were playing. They were basically at
    6 home.
    7 MIKE KANE: Other than going to the Whites,
    8 did you have any plans for Christmas day?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    10 MIKE KANE: When you went to the airport,
    11 Jeffco, did you usually drive?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    13 MIKE KANE: You have a place to park there?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I park near Steven's
    15 Aviation, yeah.
    16 MIKE KANE: How about when you flew
    17 commercially?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I would quite often take a
    19 limo. Because it was no more expensive than a
    20 taxicab and a lot more comfortable. It was just a
    21 long drive out there and it was just easier than
    22 driving and parking.
    23 MIKE KANE: When you say a limo, when I
    24 think of limo I think of (INAUDIBLE) pile in.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No, this was like a --
    0235
    1 MIKE KANE: Limousine.
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Sometimes they would
    3 pull up in these big.
    4 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean it was a
    6 limousine service and we use to use it like if we
    7 had customers that came in town we'd have them
    8 sometimes.
    9 MIKE KANE: A Boulder service or a Denver --
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was placed in
    11 Denver. Admiral Limousine.
    12 MIKE KANE: Admiral?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    14 MIKE KANE: On the trip to Charlevoix --
    15 is that how you pronounce it? Charlevoix?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    17 MIKE KANE: So you find the Kind Air. Did
    18 you normally have a copilot?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I normally took a pilot with
    20 me.
    21 MIKE KANE: And was there any reason than
    22 obviously you're (INAUDIBLE)?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) safety. I wasn't
    24 terribly (INAUDIBLE) I didn't fly every week. I
    25 just felt safer, and it wasn't a big expense to
    0236
    1 take a pilot. Mark Archuleta normally flew with
    2 me. He was a friend. He was nice to have around.
    3 We took him to Charlevoix I always took some work
    4 up there, so it was --
    5 MIKE KANE: That's what I want to ask you?
    6 What would he do when you --
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: He stayed with us in the house.
    8 If we had work to do, he'd pitch in. If we wanted
    9 a babysitter, he'd watch the kids. He was great.
    10 MIKE KANE: And how long were you intending
    11 to stay in Charlevoix?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: When it comes to the days, I
    13 don't remember. I believe we were leaving for this
    14 Big Red Boat thing on Saturday morning, and we
    15 were planning to come back on Friday from
    16 Charlevoix.
    17 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: and I think the 26th was
    19 Tuesday or Wednesday. I don't remember.
    20 LOU SMIT: Maybe we should look at a
    21 calendar.
    22 MIKE KANE: Yeah.
    23 BRYAN MORGAN: There are records of the
    24 Big Red Boat reservations.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: We had bought and paid for
    0237
    1 the tickets.
    2 LOU SMIT: We'll nail it down.
    3 BRYAN MORGAN: The 26th was a Thursday.
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Thursday.
    5 MIKE KANE: So Wednesday was Christmas.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well that doesn't make sense,
    7 then. Let's see. So the 26th was Thursday, so we
    8 would have gone on Thursday morning. I don't think
    9 we were going to stay one night. I'd have to look
    10 and say when the Big Red Boat --
    11 MIKE KANE: I guess Patsy's birthday was on
    12 the --
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Her birthday was on the 29th.
    14 I thought we were going to be there already. I
    15 don't remember. But we can figure it out.
    16 MIKE KANE: So you were going to fly back
    17 to Jeffco?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    19 MIKE KANE: The day before you went to --
    20 I guess you had to go to Florida to get there?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, we had to go to Orlando
    22 to take a bus, from Orlando to Cape Canaveral and
    23 take a bus.
    24 MIKE KANE: So you would fly back in the
    25 day before, fly out, I think you said TWA?
    0238
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    2 MIKE KANE: And you're leaving on the boat
    3 that day or did you fly down and then you would
    4 leave the next day?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I think we were doing
    6 this boom, boom, boom. Then we were going to be on
    7 the boat that night.
    8 MIKE KANE: And how long a trip was that
    9 going to be?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: It was maybe four days. It
    11 was over through New Year's Eve. I don't know if
    12 we were came back New Year's day or the next day,
    13 but it was a four-day trip.
    14 MIKE KANE: And then would you come straight
    15 back here?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. (INAUDIBLE).
    17 MIKE KANE: That's all I have.
    18 LOU SMIT: I just have one more window.
    19 MIKE KANE: I mean, I have other areas.
    20 LOU SMIT: What I'm going to show is
    21 photograph number 252. In fact, I'll maybe hold it
    22 up for the camera, and I'll ask Mr. Ramsey, what
    23 does that show?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it shows the window
    25 open and the suitcase. But the suitcase, when I
    0239
    1 first saw it, the suitcase was flat up against the
    2 wall and for some reason I felt like that window
    3 opened to the other side.
    4 LOU SMIT: Any other observations that you
    5 (INAUDIBLE)?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I realize it
    7 looks like just kind of marks on the wall, but I
    8 can't --
    9 LOU SMIT: On the diagram, John, can you
    10 show us where that is?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: We're here.
    12 LOU SMIT: Now is that the area that you
    13 observed earlier on the 26th and then a little bit
    14 later with Fleet White?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    16 LOU SMIT: Does that look similar to that?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Except for when I was there
    18 the suitcase was flat up against the wall.
    19 MIKE KANE: When you say flat up against the
    20 wall, how do you mean?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: It was standing up like this,
    22 only it the light surface was against the wall.
    23 LOU SMIT: You said you moved it? Did you
    24 mention that?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I moved it a bit just to see
    0240
    1 if there was glass. It's funny how you remember
    2 things. I swear that window opened from the other
    3 side. I guess other than that, I can't see
    4 anything.
    5 LOU SMIT: Now is this the suitcase you
    6 described as John Andrew's suitcase?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it was -- I mean, it
    8 looks like it. It looks a little darker but I
    9 think it's cause the room is darker. It was like a
    10 hard case, a Samsonite suitcase that I think, I
    11 think, John Andrew when he came to college, he
    12 brought all his stuff out and left it at our
    13 house.
    14 LOU SMIT: Now you said that you picked up
    15 pieces of glass.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    17 LOU SMIT: A few little pieces.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    19 LOU SMIT: And did you say you put them on
    20 the window well or on the suitcase or do you
    21 remember?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember for sure.
    23 There wasn't enough there for me to be convinced
    24 that the window was broken that morning. I was
    25 assuming that it had been broken by me and it
    0241
    1 hadn't really been fixed.
    2 LOU SMIT: And I'm just going to show you
    3 another photograph here. I want to talk to you
    4 again a little bit, if I can, about the
    5 flashlight. Okay?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    7 LOU SMIT: You said you kept in a drawer
    8 where? Can you point out to that?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, normally it was just
    10 in a drawer in this little bar area in the
    11 hallway.
    12 LOU SMIT: On another interview, were you
    13 shown a picture of a flashlight?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I was shown a picture of a
    15 scarf and a picture in which there was a
    16 flashlight in the background, and not just of a
    17 flashlight.
    18 LOU SMIT: Okay. I'm going to show you a
    19 photograph that I've got out of labeled Book Four.
    20 And I'll show it to the camera. And I'd like it,
    21 if you can, to tell me what you see there?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it looks like a MAG
    23 like kind of flashlight there. But that looks like
    24 maybe a plane or (INAUDIBLE) or something.
    25 LOU SMIT: Does that look like flashlight
    0242
    1 that you have or does --
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it could be. It
    3 looks a little bigger than the one I had. But it
    4 could have been the same one.
    5 LOU SMIT: Were you ever shown the
    6 flashlight?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    8 LOU SMIT: Where does that flashlight
    9 appear to be here?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's on the kitchen
    11 counter.
    12 LOU SMIT: Can you point on the diagram
    13 where that is?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: It's right here. (INAUDIBLE)
    15 is right there.
    16 LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how it got
    17 there?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    19 LOU SMIT: Did you put it there?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I recall.
    21 LOU SMIT: Did you use a flashlight at all
    22 that morning to look for JonBenet?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. There was
    24 no reason to turn the lights on. I wouldn't even
    25 bet that our flashlight worked. If I were to bet,
    0243
    1 I'll bet it wouldn't work. We just didn't keep up
    2 with that.
    3 LOU SMIT: When you had that flashlight,
    4 did you ever put batteries in it? Do you remember?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I might have once. Certainly
    6 probably initially. We have a flashlight in the
    7 car also, but it's a smaller thing.
    8 LOU SMIT: Was that a MAG light?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was a smaller one.
    10 You've got to show this to John Andrew. He might
    11 remember because he bought it for me.
    12 LOU SMIT: Do you know when he got it for
    13 you?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: No. It was like a father's
    15 day or birthday or Christmas present. It may have
    16 been a year or two before. And it looks kind of
    17 big. But it could have been the same one.
    18 LOU SMIT: I'm going to show you another
    19 photograph now. And this here is, it came off the
    20 video camera. And I do have a larger picture of
    21 this. And perhaps you can answer the question and
    22 perhaps and perhaps you can't.
    23 I would like you to take a look at this
    24 photograph. And, again, this one is not numbered.
    25 It's just a Sony video print. And I would like to
    0244
    1 ask you what that appears to you? And, again, if
    2 you don't know what it is, that's fine. And if you
    3 do, that's fine. It's not a very good picture.
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like a bag with a
    5 plastic container or something in it with a point
    6 or two.
    7 LOU SMIT: I just don't recall if you had
    8 ever seen that item before.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't even tell where it's
    10 at for sure. It's a Tupperware cup, but I don't
    11 know what it is.
    12 LOU SMIT: I'll hold that up to the camera.
    13 Okay. This here that I'm going to show you now,
    14 John, during the kidnap phase of this there was
    15 some photographs taken, and I'm sure this is
    16 probably the very first time you've been shown
    17 many photographs (INAUDIBLE).
    18 And we're doing this for a couple of reasons. And
    19 the police are right, you shouldn't show the
    20 photographs in an ongoing investigation. But you
    21 can show photographs, and I feel that they should
    22 be shown because I would like to know. You know
    23 your house better than anyone. These are
    24 photographs that were taken at a time you hadn't
    25 even found JonBenet's body yet.
    0245
    1 We can't spend a whole great length of time on
    2 this, but I would like to spend some time. And I'd
    3 like you to just look at the photographs and see
    4 if you can see anything that's out of place that
    5 don't belong there. Something that may have been
    6 taken that's missing. Or something that the killer
    7 may have left in the house.
    8 A lot of time they'll take things out, but you
    9 just don't remember what it is because you haven't
    10 taken the photographs, you don't know that.
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    12 LOU SMIT: And that's why, I know my others
    13 have discussed this, we decided to show
    14 photographs of the scene at this time. And I've
    15 got too let you know that the police department
    16 did go along with this. So they're not -- I know
    17 that there's hard feelings on this. I just want to
    18 let you know that.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, as I said earlier, if
    20 we're wrong, we owe a lot of apologies.
    21 LOU SMIT: I know. I know. Well, I'm just
    22 going to -- Mr. Morgan, you can look at it as
    23 well. If you see something that you don't
    24 understand or something that looks out of place,
    25 we'll take notes of this.
    0246
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: That is.
    2 LOU SMIT: He's pointing to photograph two
    3 (INAUDIBLE).
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: This photograph two, is
    5 (INAUDIBLE) her bed. I don't know where her pillow
    6 is. I mean the pillow on her bed.
    7 MIKE KANE: Excuse me. I think we were
    8 just wondering if were going to five? Is that the
    9 plan.
    10 LOU SMIT: Why don't we just stop for
    11 tonight if that's a --
    12 MIKE KANE: Because we're done.
    13 LOU SMIT: Why don't we just stop right
    14 here and we'll show these in the morning. We'll go
    15 over these tomorrow.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess the one thing is,
    17 where's the pillow.
    18 DAVID WILLIAMS: What time tomorrow?
    19 LOU SMIT: Does nine o'clock tomorrow
    20 sound okay?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.
    22
    23
    24
    25
    0259

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  2. #2

    Default

    0259
    1 _________________________________________________
    2
    3 IN THE MATTER OF:
    4
    5
    6 INTERVIEW WITH JOHN RAMSEY
    7
    8 _________________________________________________
    9
    10
    11 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW
    12
    13 VOLUME 2 OF 4
    14 PAGES 259 - 432
    15
    16
    17
    18
    19 JUNE 24, 1998
    20
    21
    22
    23
    24
    25
    0260
    1
    2 FOR JOHN RAMSEY'S INTERVIEW,
    3 THE FOLLOWING ARE PRESENT
    4
    5
    6
    7 LOU SMIT
    8 MIKE KANE
    9 BRYAN MORGAN
    10 DAVID WILLIAMS
    11
    12
    13
    14
    15
    16
    17
    18
    19
    20
    21
    22
    23
    24
    25
    0261
    1 LOU SMIT: Okay. For the purposes of the tape,
    2 today is Wednesday the 24th of June, 1998, and
    3 it's just about a minute after nine in the
    4 morning. Present in the room, and we'll just do
    5 it by voice again. I'm Lou Smit, John Ramsey,
    6 Bryan Morgan, David Williams and Mike Kane.
    7 We left off yesterday and we were looking at
    8 some photos. And I'm just going to change things
    9 a little bit. We're still going to look at the
    10 photos. And I'd just like to ask you John, do you
    11 the (INAUDIBLE) Entrepreneurial magazine that they
    12 have? You were both, I guess, (INAUDIBLE) of the
    13 years?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes. It wasn't quite that
    15 good.
    16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Tell me a little bit
    17 about that?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's free, right?
    19 LOU SMIT: Yes.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, it was free. It's a
    21 offshoot of the Boulder Chamber of Commerce that
    22 focuses on entrepreneurs in business and privately
    23 owned businesses and (INAUDIBLE). And one year I
    24 was, I think, was going to be awarded Entrepreneur
    25 of the station or something like that.
    0262
    1 And as part of that, we gave tours of our business
    2 to anybody who wanted to come in. And we spoke to
    3 a group. We told them about the business, what
    4 made us successful, what were the issues and just
    5 kind of a --
    6 I think that the program is to encourage
    7 entrepreneurs in business development. And so we
    8 did that. I think it was in '95. I don't remember.
    9 But we had there was a day when Axis (INAUDIBLE)
    10 was open to the public and we had that in the
    11 conference room and people came in and we talked
    12 to them for an hour.
    13 We got the award and it was real quick. Twenty
    14 seconds, thank you.
    15 LOU SMIT: Do you remember who would have
    16 been present at during that time. If it wasn't a
    17 large group of people?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: In the room? In the conference?
    19 LOU SMIT: Yeah.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: You know what, I don't.
    21 Because
    22 most of them I didn't know. There was one lady who
    23 approached me afterwards who was in the public
    24 relations business or advertising business, and
    25 she acted like, I really wanted to come and learn
    0263
    1 about the business.
    2 So she gave me her business card. (INAUDIBLE)
    3 doing a job interview; solicitation. And she
    4 popped up again later. She was a little bit of
    5 an odd duck, I thought. I really couldn't tell
    6 you who she was.
    7 And other than that, nobody really stood out in
    8 my mind.
    9 LOU SMIT: Were you competing with
    10 anybody (INAUDIBLE)?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: For that? No, it was given
    12 to three, four or five people. And there wasn't
    13 any competition.
    14 LOU SMIT: What I have here is a photograph
    15 here that's labeled 23-12, and this for the
    16 camera. It's a photograph of an entrepreneurial
    17 magazine, and it was found at the scene. And it's
    18 something that kind of caught our attention from
    19 the standpoint that there is writing on this. Now
    20 take a look at that.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: (WHISTLE). That's weird.
    22 LOU SMIT: Why do you say that?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's got Ray. It's
    24 got "no, no, no" written on the three faces, one
    25 of whom is the guy from Corporate Express, I
    0264
    1 think. What does it say? "Heart" "Two Hearts."
    2 Where was this found?
    3 LOU SMIT: It was found in the house. I'm
    4 not sure of the exact location. It's a piece of
    5 evidence that was taken that morning.
    6 DAVID WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
    7 Did you say it was found in the house?
    8 LOU SMIT: In the Ramsey's house.
    9 DAVID WILLIAMS: Okay.
    10 LOU SMIT: What do you see in that picture,
    11 John, that seems like it -- have you ever seen
    12 that article before?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't think I ever had.
    14 LOU SMIT: Can you describe the writing on it?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like --
    16 LOU SMIT: I can get a bigger copy of that.
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: It's weird.
    18 LOU SMIT: It was in a folder of some kind.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know. I mean,
    20 I didn't, I'm not. This was a very nice event and
    21 a nice award. But it wasn't a big deal for me. And
    22 I don't even know if we saved any of this stuff.
    23 It was a nice thing. But that is bizarre.
    24 It shows a heart and I can't quite figure out what
    25 that is across the face.
    0265
    1 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) identify any
    2 one of those as your picture.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think that's my picture,
    4 but I can't --
    5 LOU SMIT: But it's written on your picture,
    6 is that correct?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah, it looks like
    8 it's my picture.
    9 LOU SMIT: Could Patsy or would JonBenet
    10 would have written that?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    12 LOU SMIT: Are you sure?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely. That is very
    14 strange.
    15 LOU SMIT: Well the reason why it has come
    16 to our attention, JonBenet, did you ever read or
    17 hear anything about her in the autopsy report?
    18 That she had a heart on her hand?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I heard that just recently.
    20 LOU SMIT: And the heart was in red ink? I
    21 don't know what that means. You got any thoughts
    22 on that?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: My thoughts, after I thought
    24 about it was, she wouldn't have drawn on herself
    25 like that.
    0266
    1 LOU SMIT: Have you ever seen her draw
    2 on herself?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, they get stuff on their
    4 hands. But I don't ever remember her drawing on
    5 herself. I mean, certainly, it was Christmas, she
    6 was dressed up. She was clean, she was getting at
    7 the age where she started to notice what she wore,
    8 and she wanted to look real nice.
    9 Anyway, after I heard that I thought about that,
    10 and she wouldn't have written on her hand like
    11 that.
    12 LOU SMIT: You say that you played with
    13 her at the Whites.
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    15 LOU SMIT: And that you made these little
    16 jewelry things. Do you think you were in close
    17 proximity with her where you would have noticed
    18 that?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely. I mean we sat on
    20 the floor and made these little -- we took little
    21 strips of paper and we rolled them up on a little
    22 axle, (INAUDIBLE) beads, paper that you glue, and
    23 they had a holder, and the idea was you make a
    24 bunch of them and put them on a string and you got
    25 a necklace. And we sat and made, I don't know,
    0267
    1 half a dozen. And she would cut them out and then
    2 I would roll them up for her.
    3 If that ties, somehow that ties to that, I don't
    4 know. I don't believe it, no. I do not believe
    5 that she would draw a little heart on her hand
    6 in the same kind of ink.
    7 LOU SMIT: And we don't know that, and they
    8 don't know that.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: That has got to be weird.
    10 LOU SMIT: Well it's just evidence that
    11 was
    12 taken right off the bat. It's just that it's out
    13 of place and this article and the thought little
    14 girl having a heart on her hand.
    15 Now what we have to try to figure out is, first of
    16 all, where did that come from?
    17 MIKE KANE: Excuse me. Was it in a newspaper?
    18 LOU SMIT: An article in the newspaper. And
    19 we wondered who wrote that article. First of all,
    20 they're going to ask if you know the existence of
    21 it. Then if you knew who may have written.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recognize this article.
    23 All I remember was they had me put out a glossy
    24 brochure that advertise the whole event. And the
    25 picture was in it. I guess that only (INAUDIBLE).
    0268
    1 LOU SMIT: And then again, if we wanted
    2 to talk about the heart on JonBenet's hand. People
    3 that may have been there that night at the Whites
    4 may have seen that heart.
    5 Did she say anything about a heart? There as some
    6 mention, I think, of a secret Santa Claus. We
    7 don't know that. It's just that that's why it's
    8 good for us to sit down with you, because you know
    9 your daughter better than -- and so does your
    10 wife.
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    12 LOU SMIT: And if we can sit down and
    13 talk about these things, how are we going to know
    14 the answers. So it's a question we have all
    15 because that exists.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Do you know where that was
    17 found in the house?
    18 LOU SMIT: I will find that out specifically.
    19 This was the piece of evidence was found in --
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that is very bizarre.
    21 LOU SMIT: Also, another question. Have
    22 you ever seen pictures of your daughter in the
    23 basement of your residence?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: At any time, you mean?
    25 LOU SMIT: At any point.
    0269
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Of our house?
    2 LOU SMIT: Is it possible they could be
    3 down there?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, pictures of her?
    5 LOU SMIT: Yeah, pictures of her.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: It's unlikely. We tend to
    7 keep
    8 all our photographs in a drawer in a particular
    9 study. What we call the study. There were some
    10 small pictures that were down there that we just
    11 didn't have a place for, but (INAUDIBLE).
    12 LOU SMIT: Would they have been pictures
    13 of her
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not of her, I wouldn't think.
    15 I only think there were a couple pictures down
    16 there of a flower pot or something that we didn't
    17 want in the house, so they just ended up in the
    18 basement. But I don't know of any pictures of her
    19 in the basement.
    20 LOU SMIT: I'll try to sign specifically
    21 today where that was found. I had an idea where it
    22 was found, but I don't want to say it because I'm
    23 not sure and I'd rather (INAUDIBLE).
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Could you tell us, when
    25 you've
    0270
    1 seen the larger photograph, could you see what
    2 this scrawling is?
    3 LOU SMIT: I haven't been able to make
    4 that out as yet. It's kind of a scrawl.
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: And I see it's inside like
    6 a magazine?
    7 LOU SMIT: Right. Well, it's in a folder
    8 of some kind. You know like a folder that would
    9 include (INAUDIBLE) books. It was just a curious
    10 thing with us.
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I'm extremely --
    12 LOU SMIT: But you said that JonBenet
    13 didn't
    14 write on her hands?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember her doing
    16 that.
    17 LOU SMIT: Do you remember washing her
    18 hands or cleaning up her -- as the Whites are
    19 cleaning up before or anything of that nature?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: She was pretty good about
    21 cleanliness. She always took a bath (INAUDIBLE)
    22 daily, I think. I think she was getting to paying
    23 attention to her grooming. I don't specifically
    24 remember her washing her hands.
    25 LOU SMIT: But could you specifically
    0271
    1 tell
    2 us of a time --
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Where she washed her hands?
    4 In fact, Patsy was always after the kids to wash
    5 their hands before dinner when they came in from
    6 playing. So she would know.
    7 LOU SMIT: Okay. Because that is important
    8 that we know that.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: But I don't think she would
    10 have drawn a heart on her hand. The trouble with
    11 that piece of information, which is very bizarre.
    12 Something is amiss there.
    13 LOU SMIT: Okay. So we can investigate
    14 that
    15 there.
    16 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: The person who did this
    18 obviously (INAUDIBLE) clues to tantalize us. And
    19 that's just another one (INAUDIBLE).
    20 LOU SMIT: Do you have any red paint in
    21 the house or would there be a marker like that?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, we probably do. We had
    23 pencils and magic markers all over the place.
    24 LOU SMIT: Okay. we'll get off that subject
    25 for just a little while, may be I'll come back to
    0272
    1 it later. I'm going to just touch a little bit on
    2 presents, okay?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    4 LOU SMIT: And I wanted to do that and
    5 kind
    6 of lead into various photographs, okay? I've got
    7 photographs of the wine cellar. And these were
    8 taken during the course of the crime scene
    9 investigation. And it shows various presents in
    10 the wine cellar. And I just had a couple questions
    11 on that.
    12 It's 263, 264, 265, 266, 267 -- I'm sorry. We'll
    13 eliminate those 266, 267 and 268. we'll just
    14 concentrate on the first three. And we'll just
    15 show that to the camera and that will make up
    16 somewhat of an image. Do you have any comments
    17 about that, or does anything that looks out of
    18 place? Because you're the one that knows basically
    19 your house.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch
    21 of gifts at FAO Swartz up in New York in early
    22 December, some of which were for them were for
    23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't
    24 know they were in the closet exactly,
    25 But the cigar box -- I had some cigars that I kept
    0273
    1 in the basement because it was kind of humid. And
    2 that looks like (INAUDIBLE) like they where the
    3 tobacco (INAUDIBLE).
    4 LOU SMIT: And you (INAUDIBLE)?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, at least Monte Christo's
    6 were there.
    7 LOU SMIT: Can you remember if it was a full
    8 box (INAUDIBLE) cigars?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: I had taken two out, so
    10 it should have been reasonably full. I can't quite
    11 tell. It's like it's upside down, maybe. Or dumped
    12 over.
    13 LOU SMIT: You notice how the packages seem
    14 to be partially opened. Can you explain this?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I can't.
    16 LOU SMIT: So Patsy had gone there and
    17 just kind looked to see what was (INAUDBILE)?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. (INAUDIBLE) I mean,
    19 you can figure out what's in them. The cigar box
    20 was sitting on a paint can, or something like
    21 that. And I believe it shouldn't have.
    22 LOU SMIT: So it wasn't in the place
    23 where it had been. It's not on the floor?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: And if I interpret the picture,
    25 it's looks like it's kind of almost upside down on
    0274
    1 the floor.
    2 LOU SMIT: And that's not where you remember
    3 it being?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't notice any of the
    5 stuff that was in the room. I was surprised I
    6 didn't. all I saw was JonBenet.
    7 When I put the cigar box in that room, the reason
    8 that I set it down here, over here on a paint can
    9 or something, and I just stuck it down there
    10 because it was humid.
    11 LOU SMIT: So it was on a paint can?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: It was, yeah.
    13 LOU SMIT: If you want to look at these,
    14 just the photographs on this side.
    15 MIKE KANE: How often did you smoke a cigar?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I couldn't smoke in the house.
    17 And JonBenet would actually get after me if I
    18 smoked or drank a beer. So the only time I would
    19 smoke a cigar is if I drove to the airport or
    20 something like that. So, once or twice a week,
    21 maybe.
    22 MIKE KANE: Those cigars I see are to be
    23 Cuban, you must have gotten them out of the
    24 country?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    0275
    1 MIKE: Where did you get them from?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I used to go to Europe two
    3 or three times a year.
    4 MIKE KANE: So you sneaked them back through
    5 Customs?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    7 MIKE KANE: I'm a former Fed.
    8 LOU SMIT: Okay. This here is a photograph.
    9 (INAUDIBLE) you golf clubs, okay? Now, you're a
    10 golfer, I assume?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I can claim that.
    12 LOU SMIT: Now this is a -- just take a
    13 look at this. This is actually a photograph of
    14 golf clubs. It's located down near the wine cellar
    15 in the basement. And I just wanted you to take a
    16 look and see if you see anything in regards to
    17 that that seems out of place, or maybe if any
    18 clothes are missing there?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't see anything that
    20 looks odd. Looks like there's two woods in the
    21 bag. I think I have three and I can't really tell
    22 if there's three or not. There's a putter, eight
    23 irons, seven or eight. (INAUDIBLE) I don't see,
    24 no.
    25 LOU SMIT: By the way, that's photograph
    0276
    1 number 374. And that photograph was taken during
    2 the crime scene investigation after the search
    3 warrant was obtained. So that was after.
    4 Now I have photographs 72 and 71. And these are
    5 photographs taken during what we can describe as
    6 the kidnapping phase, when the crime scene techs
    7 were there. And that's before the body was found.
    8 And I wanted to show you this. This was taken
    9 earlier that morning. And I want you to take a
    10 look at these photos and do you see anything out
    11 of place and anything which would draw your
    12 attention, or if anything is missing that you can
    13 remember?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's obviously been
    15 moved around some. This bag has been moved, looks
    16 like.
    17 MIKE KANE: Which one are you referring to?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: A purple bag with my name on
    19 it.
    20 MIKE KANE: From where to where?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks like it's been
    22 moved down off the pile, because it's usually
    23 here. This laundry basket doesn't show in here.
    24 LOU SMIT: So it looks like something has
    25 been moved between the time this picture was taken
    0277
    1 and this picture was taken?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like this cane
    3 has been moved. It's hard to tell from the
    4 picture.
    5 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like those little
    7 marks
    8 are right on the heel in the back hallway.
    9 LOU SMIT: I wanted to direct your attention,
    10 if you could, John. This photograph 71, and
    11 especially in the entryways there and into the
    12 various rooms. Now this must have been taken
    13 fairly early on the morning of the 26th.
    14 Can you describe what you see there? Is there
    15 anything out of place or is there anything
    16 different from the way you remember it. Because
    17 you said you went down into that area.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: What is difference is, I
    19 think that the door is blocked by this drum table.
    20 Here's the chair I said was brought to the door.
    21 And it's not. I moved the chair to get into the
    22 door.
    23 If this was taken before I was down there -- well
    24 I put it back. When I went down there, that chair
    25 was kind of blocking that entrance right there.
    0278
    1 And there was something else on the other side,
    2 whatever it was. But all I had to do was move that
    3 chair, then I walked into the room.
    4 LOU SMIT: That's the first time down?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. In this picture here,
    6 I would have had to move that drum table and the
    7 Easter basket in that room. So that's different.
    8 LOU SMIT: So you say that that's been moved.
    9 Which way would you say that's been moved?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember the Easter
    11 baskets there at all. But it would have had to
    12 have been moved. The drum table was over, and the
    13 chair was also blocking the door.
    14 LOU SMIT: So do you think that the chair
    15 would block the door and nobody would have gotten
    16 in there without moving it?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Correct.
    18 LOU SMIT: In other words, let's say
    19 that the intruder goes into the training room,
    20 gets out, let's say, that window?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    22 LOU SMIT: How in effect would he get
    23 that chair to block that door, if that is the
    24 case, is what I'm saying?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. All I'm saying
    0279
    1 is, that is different than when I went down there.
    2 LOU SMIT: Okay, let's say that you go down
    3 there?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. All I want to show
    5 is that that chair was kind of sitting right in
    6 here, and there was something else here. I don't
    7 know what it was. It could have been that
    8 (INAUDIBLE).
    9 LOU SMIT: You go down, that's what you see?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I go down, I say, ooh, that door
    11 is blocked. I move the chair and went in the room.
    12 LOU SMIT: So you couldn't have gotten in
    13 without moving the chair?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Correct.
    15 LOU SMIT: And the door was opened or closed?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was opened.
    17 LOU SMIT: The door was opened?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: correct.
    19 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: In that picture, it looks like
    21 -- I came in on this side of the door (INAUDIBLE)
    22 and would have had to remove that drum table and
    23 the Easter basket.
    24 MIKE KANE: Which side are you talking about?
    25 The inner side or the lock side?
    0280
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: If I had the door open it
    2 must be the lock side. That chair was right there
    3 when I went down there, on the lock sided of the
    4 door.
    5 MIKE KANE: On the opposite the hinges.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. And I moved it and
    7 entered the room. And in that picture --
    8 LOU SMIT: And you don't know if you were
    9 the first one down there?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought I -- Well the police,
    11 they probably went through the house a bit. I
    12 don't know where they went. I heard later that
    13 Fleet White claimed he went through the basement
    14 alone. I don't know if that was before or after I
    15 did alone.
    16 LOU SMIT: That's why we're trying to
    17 determine your time. If you can get that down.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I wish I can tell
    19 you precisely, but it had to be -- you see I think
    20 when the first uniformed officer came, French, he
    21 very quickly said, I want all you people in the
    22 room, and then people started showing in this
    23 room, which was the solarium where he talked, is
    24 the solarium.
    25 And then some other officers came and I my
    0281
    1 impression at that time was that they did a
    2 cursory check of the house. One of the uniformed
    3 house went through the house. That had been fairly
    4 early.
    5 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: We don't. I think it's between
    7 6:00 and 6:30. So that person should have been the
    8 first one to go through the house.
    9 I went in the basement, certainly before we were
    10 getting ready for the call. (INAUDIBLE) until
    11 eight, so that would have been eight o'clock. So
    12 we were preparing for that. By 7:30, let's say,
    13 and Fleet and I were talking about what we were
    14 going to say.
    15 LOU SMIT: Would that have been before
    16 then or after?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have been before
    18 then I believe.
    19 LOU SMIT: So it was before eight o'clock?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: That's right. (INAUDIBLE) I'm
    21 trying to reconstruct in it my mind.
    22 LOU SMIT: But when you went to the train
    23 room, you had move these things in order to get
    24 into the train room?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I had to move the chair.
    0282
    1 LOU SMIT: The thing I'm trying to figure
    2 out in my mind then is, if an intruder went
    3 through the door, he'd almost have to pull the
    4 chair behind him.
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That's correct.
    6
    7 LOU SMIT: Because that would have been
    8 his exit?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    10 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was blocked. He'd
    12 have to move something to get into the room.
    13 LOU SMIT: And he would have had to move
    14 it back, if he was in there trying to get out, is
    15 that correct?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    17 LOU SMIT: So that's not very logical as
    18 far as --
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it is. I mean if this
    20 person is that bizarrely clever to have not left
    21 any good evidence, but left all these little funny
    22 little clues around, they certain are clever
    23 enough to pull the chair back when they left.
    24 LOU SMIT: But it was your impression that
    25 that chair was blocking that door?
    0283
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. The chair and something
    2 else. But it certainly wasn't the Easter baskets.
    3 They were sitting there on the drum table. So I
    4 never touched them. I just moved the chair and
    5 went in.
    6 LOU SMIT: And that's one of the things
    7 that we have to really get clear, because the
    8 photographs were taken fairly early that morning.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: But I think the question is,
    10 would a police officer have done that? Probably
    11 not. Would Fleet White have done that? I don't
    12 know. Just looking at this picture, it doesn't
    13 appear to me that that chair had anything to do
    14 with the door. But, you know, geez, I wish I could
    15 remember. But I don't remember moving that. I
    16 really don't. all I remember is kind of moving the
    17 chair and walking in.
    18 LOU SMIT: And sometimes the photograph
    19 perspective is a little bit different. You don't
    20 really have the perspective on the photograph. But
    21 that's why we just wanted to clarify that. In
    22 effect, it's just a question that I had.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: So this was taken -- okay.
    24 No, I don't see anything else. I was looking at
    25 the latch on the door.
    0284
    1 LOU SMIT: What's you --
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they look like they were
    3 in the same position. Well I can't see them in
    4 both pictures. They were taken at the same time?
    5 LOU SMIT: That's 71 and 72 could have been.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't see anything else.
    7 LOU SMIT: Okay. I'm going to hit one more
    8 area, and then Mike I wondered if you had some
    9 areas that you wanted to get into?
    10 MIKE KANE: Um hmm.
    11 LOU SMIT: So just one more area. Everybody
    12 has heard about -- I can't say that. What have you
    13 heard about a paint tray?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Just what I read, or tried
    15 not to read. But can't help but hear the media
    16 that tell us a broken paintbrush that was used as
    17 part of the -- you see, I found JonBenet. I never
    18 saw a cord or that sort of thing. I thought I saw
    19 a cord, but I didn't focus on it or realize there
    20 was anything in the way of a twister, which
    21 apparently it was.
    22 It apparently was a paintbrush. And that's based
    23 on what I heard in the media. That's my
    24 impression. That's all I really heard.
    25 LOU SMIT: Your impression then of that
    0285
    1 literature then, what did you picture that to be
    2 in your mind? I mean, you hadn't seen it?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I did remember -- I mean,
    4 the cord on her arms was kind of an unusual cord.
    5 It wasn't a piece of twine or heavy string or
    6 anything like that. It was like a drawstring out
    7 of a coat or something. It was woven kind of cord.
    8 (INAUDIBLE) apparently around the neck, I guess
    9 the same stuff. That's all I really noticed.
    10 LOU SMIT: I'd like to show you a series
    11 photographs. It starts at photograph 175, 178, 181
    12 -- excuse me, 179, 180 and 181. and I'd just like
    13 to show these photographs to you. Mr. Ramsey, I'll
    14 just show them briefly for the camera. I know it's
    15 hard to pick up completely but I'll show you
    16 anyway, the front and back.
    17 If you'll take a look at those and let me know,
    18 first of all, what in fact is that? It's a tray
    19 but --
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a tray of artist's
    21 brushes; it looks like, which I presume was Patsy
    22 and JonBenet's. They liked to paint together.
    23 Looks like some paints. Can't tell what that is on
    24 that side.
    25 LOU SMIT: And you're pointing to --
    0286
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: To these (INAUDIBLE)
    2 LOU SMIT: To the right side as you're
    3 looking at it?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    5 LOU SMIT: And that's photograph 178, by
    6 the way.
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like it's sitting
    8 outside the door of the wine cellar. Were these
    9 pictures (INAUDIBLE)?
    10 LOU SMIT: I can't say, but I don't believe
    11 that you can see it in the others.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    13 LOU SMIT: But their perspective may
    14 different.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember seeing
    16 those in those other pictures, or this for that
    17 matter. But I'd have to look at them again to see
    18 if that was from a different perspective.
    19 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) those two on the
    20 top here. I can show you where they have the
    21 handwriting.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I can't even tell.
    23 I'd say it looks like art supplies and then some
    24 paint. That's painting Patsy had painted.
    25 LOU SMIT: That's on photograph 178?
    0287
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Looks like stuff I
    2 couldn't recognize as some paper towel in this
    3 picture. I don't know what this is.
    4 LOU SMIT: That's 182. That's just a
    5 photograph of a -- What is that photograph of?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like the blanket
    7 on the concrete floor. And that's quite possible.
    8 It could have been the white blanket she was
    9 wrapped in.
    10 LOU SMIT: Where was that blanket on her
    11 kept?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. Patsy said
    13 that it came off her bed.
    14 LOU SMIT: Is it something that was on
    15 JonBenet's bed?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, according to Patsy,
    17 yeah. That was the blanket that was on her bed.
    18 No, I just can't tell what that is. I don't know.
    19 LOU SMIT: That's on photograph 182?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    21 LOU SMIT: And you're pointing to a little
    22 shiny object?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it looks like -- yeah.
    24 These other pictures could have been pictures that
    25 Patsy used for examples of things to paint of. She
    0288
    1 could answer that. Yeah.
    2 LOU SMIT: Sorry to be getting a little bit
    3 into these other kinds of areas I want to cover
    4 but --
    5 MIKE KANE: I'm not asking very much here
    6 but, I do have a whole series. As long as we can.
    7 I may cover some stuff that (INAUDIBLE), but I
    8 have no problem with that. It's okay.
    9 LOU SMIT: There's also photographs 183
    10 and 184 that are taken in conjunction with that.
    11 Photographs of the wine cellar floor. And I want
    12 to show this to Mr. Ramsey. These, again, were
    13 crime scene photographs after the search warrant
    14 was obtained. If you have --
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it looks like it could
    16 be a Christmas ornament. It looks a little bit
    17 (INAUDIBLE) like the hook of the top of a
    18 Christmas ornament. It wouldn't be unusual to find
    19 one broken in that room.
    20 LOU SMIT: It would not?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    22 LOU SMIT: Okay, good.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: That's where we stored the
    24 Christmas trees and stuff.
    25 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    0289
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Looks like it's little
    2 fragments of the artificial tree over here. That
    3 would be my guess is what that is.
    4 LOU SMIT: I think I'm going to just
    5 switch gears right now, unless you have any other
    6 questions. One thing I did want to show you on
    7 picture 147 here; this again is photographs of the
    8 wine cellar. There's a series of them: 146, 147,
    9 148 and 149. Again, photographs of the wine cellar
    10 after the search warrant was obtained.
    11 And I'd like to just show them to you, Mr. Ramsey,
    12 and see what you observe on these photographs,
    13 whether they're in place or out of place or if
    14 there's anything that seems to be different? And
    15 what you remember?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, in terms of the pictures,
    17 this cigar box is different, certainly.
    18 LOU SMIT: And what do you mean by that?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, in terms of versus the other
    20 picture, it's kind of resting on its bottom here,
    21 more or less. Here it's a different box.
    22 LOU SMIT: So you had more than one box
    23 of cigars?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that box,
    25 Romeo and Juliets. I remember this. The Cubans.
    0290
    1 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) the same box?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember that box.
    3 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's it?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't. I don't. This --
    5 LOU SMIT: Photograph number --
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: -- 149, that was like
    7 (INAUDIBLE) what looks like a big piece of duct
    8 tape. That doesn't look like that tape I took off
    9 JonBenet's mouth.
    10 LOU SMIT: Okay. And why do you say that?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, because as I recall,
    12 it was black. It was like a little larger than
    13 electrical tape in width. And it struck me, and as
    14 I thought about it later, as the kind of tape you
    15 might use in sailing to wrap around the stanchion
    16 or something.
    17 LOU SMIT: The black tape?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    19 LOU SMIT: Have you used that type of
    20 tape on (INAUDIBLE)?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't recognize it.
    22 But in this picture, it looks like a piece of duct
    23 tape. A big piece of duct tape. And that's not
    24 what I remember.
    25 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's on photograph number --
    0291
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: 149. Cause it was like stuck
    2 to the blanket almost in this picture.
    3 LOU SMIT: What are you thinking?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: It's just hard to look at these,
    5 that's all. Basically JonBenet was right here.
    6 LOU SMIT: If you want to get off this,
    7 we can?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No, that's okay. Sorry.
    9 LOU SMIT: You touched on something, you know,
    10 and I was going to ask you about that tape later
    11 on and the cord. But you mentioned that the tape
    12 that you took off JonBenet, we're trying to
    13 determine if in fact you could have been in
    14 contact with that type of tape. And you mentioned
    15 something about that's the type you seen on a
    16 stanchion.
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it's just it wasn't
    18 a tape that looked familiar to me, or it looked
    19 like it wasn't torn, it was cut perfectly,
    20 literally, that it fit her mouth. It was black, it
    21 wider than electrical tape, but not as wide as
    22 duct tape. I mean I know what duct tape is; it
    23 wasn't duct tape.
    24 Just thinking about it later, where do you get
    25 this kind of tape? It's a little wider, and I've
    0292
    1 seen it in white before. It's kind of a utility
    2 tape that you can use on a sailboat in boating.
    3 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: And we had some, and
    5 there's white. Somebody had (INAUDIBILE) that they
    6 wrapped around rough edges, the stanchion, so that
    7 the sail didn't catch it and tear. It was just
    8 kind of a wider utility tape. I don't remember if
    9 we had any black or not. But certainly white.
    10 LOU SMIT: And this would have been where?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Up at Michigan.
    12 LOU SMIT: Michigan, okay.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: It wasn't a big piece of
    14 duct tape like that.
    15 LOU SMIT: Okay. And we're going to get
    16 into to that. I've got some I'm going to show you
    17 also later. It's just that we divided that up
    18 between the other room and this one. And so, when
    19 we get it I'll show you a little more on that
    20 later. And we will come back to some areas again.
    21 I want to just let Mike -- I know he's had
    22 questions. He's kind of written down questions in
    23 an order that he's used. So let's just kind of
    24 shift gears just a little bit. Then we can come
    25 back.
    0293
    1 MIKE KANE: Mr. Ramsey, as I ask these
    2 questions, if there any that you don't want to
    3 answer, just let me know.
    4 I want to talk a little bit about the Christmas
    5 Eve period to Thanksgiving. Did you guys do
    6 anything for Thanksgiving?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, gosh. I don't remember.
    8 I'm sure we had.
    9 MIKE KANE: I mean, were you at home or
    10 did you go some place?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I remember. We were
    12 at my brother's.
    13 MIKE KANE: In Atlanta?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: That's up in Atlanta.
    15 Because we had a family picture that was sent out
    16 with our Christmas card. That was at my brother's
    17 at Thanksgiving.
    18 MIKE KANE: Okay. Now I think yesterday
    19 that you mentioned when one of the parades on
    20 December the 6th, that you were away then. Do you
    21 recall where you were then?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: We had gone to New York
    23 that weekend with Susan and Glen Stine. They
    24 invited us to go. I forget when Glen came back, it
    25 was like a Friday and they came back on the Sunday
    0294
    1 or something like that.
    2 MIKE KANE: Where did you stay then?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I can see the place; I
    4 can't tell you the name. Patsy might remember.
    5 MIKE KANE: In Manhattan?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it was downtown. It
    7 was near the theatre district. The Marriott or
    8 something like that.
    9 MIKE KANE: And you went there to go
    10 to a dance -- The thought in the back of my mind
    11 was that (INAUDIBLE) took JonBenet to New York. Is
    12 that the same trip?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, that was a different trip.
    14 Some friends of her in Charlevoix had a
    15 mother/daughter trip to New York that they invited
    16 her to go on. And that was, I think that was after
    17 that. It was the Christmas season, as I recall.
    18 And so she and JonBenet went. Patsy's mother and
    19 sister went also. It was, as I recall, two or
    20 three mother/daughter couples. And they went to
    21 shows and the Center.
    22 MIKE KANE: Rockefeller Center, you said?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    24 MIKE KANE: And how long of a trip was that?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was on a long weekend.
    0295
    1 I don't remember.
    2 MIKE KANE: During this period of time,
    3 and I'm going to get into this in more detail down
    4 the road. During this period of time between
    5 Christmas and Thanksgiving, did Patsy have any
    6 cancer treatments or follow-ups or trips to
    7 (INAUDIBLE)?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall that she did.
    9 But it's (INAUDIBLE) day. She would know if it
    10 was. She knows exactly when she needs to go again.
    11 MIKE KANE: Okay. The party when that
    12 Santa Claus contacted you, that party was on the
    13 23rd. Now in the past you've had those parties
    14 were the same with (INAUDIBLE)?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.
    16 MIKE KANE: And this year, in 1996, you
    17 said you weren't going to have it. Was there a
    18 discussion about having it and you decided --
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, we talked about, you
    20 know, should we have a Christmas party or should
    21 we just have this big birthday party; and we were
    22 going to leave town the next day; and the boat
    23 trip. And we said, we won't really do that. I
    24 think we were going to invite one or two couples
    25 over with their kids and just have kind of a real
    0296
    1 small family thing. That was the extent of it.
    2 MIKE KANE: And then Mr. McReynolds called
    3 and you spoke about him saying Charles Kuralt?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: We normally would have
    5 called him well before that to arrange for him to
    6 come. Of course, we didn't that year. But he
    7 called and said, you know, Charles Kuralt is here
    8 in town and he's doing a documentary on me and I'd
    9 love to bring him to your Christmas party. He's
    10 come, because that's one of my favorites.
    11 So Patsy got excited, so a party sounds like fun.
    12 So we put it together.
    13 MIKE KANE: How long before the 23rd was that?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: It wasn't very long before.
    15 MIKE KANE: So, pretty short notice?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    17 MIKE KANE: What kinds of things did you
    18 do to get ready for this?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I mean the house was
    20 pretty well decorated. She just invited a lot more
    21 people than we had planned to have over. And she
    22 got those gingerbread things, I think, especially
    23 for that.
    24 MIKE KANE: What about food? Did she prepare
    25 it or have it catered or what?
    0297
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually she has it catered.
    2 I think that's what we did that night as well. I'm
    3 sure we did.
    4 MIKE KANE: Were there any other preparations
    5 for it, do you remember? You know, people that you
    6 might have contacted?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: No, besides the caterer.
    8 Then we have the other people we invited. I don't
    9 think so.
    10 MIKE KANE: Did you have any workmen do
    11 anything in the house in preparation for that?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall. We did have
    13 -- the only work that was done in that period was:
    14 Patsy's shower faucet had broken, the water. And
    15 so we had a plumber come in. they tore out the
    16 wall, you know, to get the valve out and replaced
    17 out. And that was done, maybe Novemberish.
    18 So now we had the shower wall with a big hole in
    19 it and this Mervin Pew over Thanksgiving to repair
    20 that tile work. But that's all work we had done in
    21 the house around that period of time.
    22 MIKE KANE: And while this Marvin Pew
    23 was making that repair, did you contact him to do
    24 that?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't. Patsy arranged
    0298
    1 for them to do some work. I remember she came to
    2 her and said, "We'd like some work." And she gave
    3 them a list of things to do. I think that's how.
    4 MIKE KANE: You said that the house was
    5 already decorated and the person who had done it
    6 in the past was Bill Wallace?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: He had helped in the past.
    8 I don't recall him being there this year. I know
    9 Patsy knew specifically what she did. You know, I
    10 don't remember, but it wouldn't have surprised me
    11 a bit if she threw up some extra decorations. They
    12 were pretty excited that we were having an extra
    13 party and so forth. But I don't remember her
    14 specifically doing it. But she'd remember.
    15 MIKE KANE: Mostly from what I can see from
    16 photographs there are garland and things like that
    17 look to me to be artificial. Is any of it real?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: The Christmas tree was real.
    19 That's about it.
    20 MIKE KANE: Do you know if any of the
    21 greenery from your yard (INAUDIBLE)?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Sometimes she'd cut
    23 (INAUDIBLE) in my yard, brought in ferns and stuff
    24 for her room from the fir family, evergreen. But
    25 I'm not sure.
    0299
    1 MIKE KANE: You don't know?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) we got some
    3 holly in the room.
    4 MIKE KANE: You don't (INAUDIBLE)?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    6 MIKE KANE: You don't know whether Wallace
    7 took part in that?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't, but Patsy would
    9 know for sure.
    10 MIKE KANE: When he assisted in doing
    11 that, is that what he was? He assisted her?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    13 MIKE KANE: Or did he kind of do it
    14 and she assisted? Which was it?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I knew he was
    16 there, I guess, when (INAUDIBLE). I think he was
    17 artsy, so I'm sure he had opinions and stuff on
    18 what should go where. But I suspect it was
    19 probably a joint effort.
    20 MIKE KANE: Yesterday in the room we had
    21 some confusion about when you were leaving. Well
    22 we know it was the 26th that you were leaving for
    23 Charlevoix. And we found out, I guess, that was a
    24 Thursday, when you were going on the Big Red Boat.
    25 Did you have an opportunity to talk about that?
    0300
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we talked a little bit
    2 about it last night, because I was amazed of how
    3 poorly our memory of things like that. Patsy
    4 didn't remember it either, but it's easy to figure
    5 out, because we lot purchased the tickets through
    6 our travel agent and so forth.
    7 BRYAN MORGAN: I may be able to shorten
    8 that because I know that I have seen the
    9 reservations. So I would be glad to send you
    10 copies.
    11 MIKE KANE: Okay. That would clear that
    12 right up. Great. Where did the idea of going on
    13 the Big Red Boat, how did that come about?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we actually that was
    15 fairly well in advance. We had never been on a
    16 cruise. Christmas is a tough time for us because I
    17 think we lost Beth in January, and we liked to
    18 kind of have things to do and planned.
    19 So we thought, that would be fun thing to do, a
    20 family thing. And we had never been on a cruise,
    21 and going to the Big Red Boat and have fun with
    22 the kids. So we just planned it and it was kind of
    23 a first. Because I'd never done something like
    24 that. And it was planned well in advance and we
    25 got a package deal and it was TWA that was going
    0301
    1 through St. Louis, or something like that. Which I
    2 was kind of nervous about, because I could see us
    3 changing planes and missing planes. But it was a
    4 cheap airfare.
    5 MIKE KANE: You would rather have flown
    6 yourself?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Or rather flown nonstop to
    8 Orlando or something from Denver. I just get very
    9 nervous changing planes. But yeah, it was a trip
    10 together. We had a very full, a very fun season
    11 planned out.
    12 MIKE KANE: Who made those arrangements?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy made the reservations?
    14 MIKE KANE: Was it through the travel agent?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: The travel agent. Actually
    16 I think I remember calling Walt Disney directly. I
    17 think I might have gotten the number out of a
    18 magazine or something. Because I think I remember
    19 joining the Disney or somebody like that directly.
    20 Because we had the option of going to Disney World
    21 for a day or two, and we no, because Patsy didn't
    22 want to. I Remember.
    23 MIKE KANE: And then the trip to Charlevoix,
    24 was that planned a lot in advance?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, fairly. Not months
    0302
    1 in advance, at least a month in advance. We had to
    2 get tickets for the kids and figure out their
    3 schedule and get Mike Archuleta lined up. So it
    4 was planned. For sure three or four weeks in
    5 advance.
    6 MIKE KANE: Why Charlevoix?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we have a summer
    8 cottage up there and I love it up there and the
    9 kids like it, and I just thought it would be fun
    10 to have a Christmas up there just to see what it
    11 was like.
    12 MIKE KANE: Had you ever been up there
    13 before?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: For Christmas?
    15 MIKE KANE: Yes
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    17 MIKE KANE: Was the house, the cottage,
    18 decorated?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy had a way of doing
    20 things, had a local florist go out and drape
    21 garland on the fence and lights, and I think they
    22 decorated the mantle. We weren't going to have a
    23 Christmas tree because we were only going for a
    24 short stay. It didn't make any sense. But she had
    25 it decorated. We never saw it. But it supposedly
    0303
    1 decorated. Because we wanted it to be nice for
    2 Melinda and (INAUDIBLE) and the other kids.
    3 MIKE KANE: How often did you go to Charlevoix?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy would normally go
    5 up with the kids, because we've only had it for
    6 three or four five years, something like that. But
    7 she would go up in June and stay through August.
    8 MIKE KANE: And go out every year?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, every year that we've
    10 had it, we just may have been two or three
    11 summers.
    12 MIKE KANE: So you had never been out there
    13 for Christmas before?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    15 MIKE KANE: Did you take the trips there
    16 during the winter --
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, once a year, maybe. We
    18 didn't go till much later.
    19 MIKE KANE: And is there like an airport
    20 where
    21 you can land?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Within a mile of the house.
    23 MIKE KANE: And you had a car up there?
    24 I mean, from the airport you'd just leave it at
    25 the airport?
    0304
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: We've done both. I don't
    2 remember then what whether it was at the airport
    3 or in the garage. I think that it was in the
    4 garage. And then we'd call neighbors and they
    5 would come pick us up. I think that's probably
    6 what we would have done.
    7 MIKE KANE: You said you had clothes up
    8 there?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    10 MIKE KANE: How much in the way of winter
    11 clothes did you have?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: We had jeans and sweatshirts,
    13 which is really all we need. I hate to haul a lot
    14 of stuff when we're traveling. I just travel so
    15 much, I guess. That's one of the attractions of
    16 having a place like that is, when you go there you
    17 shouldn't have to carry everything with you.
    18 So I consciously don't do that, and make it a
    19 point to try to have the stuff there:
    20 toothbrushes, extra electric shaver, (INAUDIBLE)
    21 so I don't have to take things back to Boulder. As
    22 I recall, the only thing I wanted to take with me
    23 was a winter coat.
    24 MIKE KANE: Yeah. You had mentioned that
    25 about some luggage, the pull-behind type. Were you
    0305
    1 have taking that to Charlevoix?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if we were
    3 taking it to Charlevoix or not. I think we had
    4 something packed for the boat trip. A lot of times
    5 we would just -- because the kids always had stuff
    6 they had to take, because they always are growing
    7 out of clothes, so you can leave the right stuff
    8 there. But when you came back it was too small.
    9 But we try to pack like in soft bags or plastic
    10 bags. Because it's just easier to cram that in the
    11 plane.
    12 MIKE KANE: Does the King Air have a
    13 separate cargo hold?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it's like just in
    15 the back of the cabin. So if you pack in a soft
    16 thing, you can really fill up that little space.
    17 (INAUDIBLE).
    18 MIKE KANE: And that was pretty big capacity,
    19 though, weight wise?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah. You can --
    21 MIKE KANE: What was that? Four thousand
    22 pounds or something like that?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, empty. But you put
    24 fuel on board. Yeah.
    25 MIKE KANE: Yeah.
    0306
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    2 MIKE KANE: Did you have any problem with
    3 that?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember any.
    5 MIKE KANE: I'm going to get into another
    6 area here. Like I said yesterday, they'll try to
    7 put anything into (INAUDIBLE).
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.
    9 MIKE KANE: Okay. You hired media consultants.
    10 (INAUDIBLE) you hear about. But whenever you hear
    11 about the Ramseys, you always hear they hired
    12 media consultants. Tell me about that?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: As far as I'm concerned,
    14 (INAUDIBLE), it's the biggest mistake he ever
    15 made. These guys came to us and said, well we got
    16 to get --
    17 BRYAN MORGAN: Wait a minute, wait, wait.
    18 You're getting into attorney/client conversation.
    19 MIKE KANE: Don't tell anything that is --
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: We didn't hire --
    21 BRYAN MORGAN: I am entirely willing to explain
    22 it, but this is not a general area. (INAUDIBLE)
    23 talk about this particular back and forth between
    24 us.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: They said we have to be
    0307
    1 isolated from these piranhas so we can do our job.
    2 But we needed somebody that could respond to them
    3 with accurate information, but keep us from having
    4 to deal with these people. And, you know, we were
    5 total on autopilot, because we were in shock. We
    6 had lost our daughter.
    7 This guy, I forget his name now, was brought in.
    8 And the objective was to try to give the sharks
    9 what they wanted so they'd go away. And these guys
    10 came in and they did what needed to be done. I
    11 mean, we were trying to figure out, let's find out
    12 who did this. (INAUDIBLE) here, how to get away
    13 from here. And that was the objective.
    14 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah. And it was a
    16 total weight of money.
    17 MIKE KANE: How is that?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: He was a blow bag. He was
    19 worthless. What we should have done is put a phone
    20 number in and hired somebody that knew how to not
    21 say anything, to be polite.
    22 MIKE KANE: What was it that he didn't do?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the one thing that he
    24 did, and had backfired in our face was, he said I
    25 worked out a deal with the media that, if you will
    0308
    1 give them some footage, they'll go away. I'd like
    2 it that when you come out of the church. He set it
    3 up so they would be there and he said if you could
    4 do this one thing they'd get their meat and then
    5 they'll leave. (INAUDIBLE)
    6 And we said, okay. We'll do that. Because
    7 that's the video they used a lot, when we were
    8 walking out of the church. And we had set it up
    9 with Father Rol, that this would happen, and sorry
    10 that these guys were hanging outside the church
    11 anyway.
    12 And so Father Rol agreed and he said
    13 we'll walk over to the sanctuary where the
    14 community center was. At the sermon he said,
    15 "Okay, I'm going to do something that I said I
    16 wouldn't do, but I'm going to do it anyway." He
    17 said, "Here's what's going to happen. I would like
    18 all of you to line up along the sidewalk and
    19 protect the Ramseys from these people and show
    20 your support." He said, "You don't have to do it.
    21 But if you'd like to, that's what I'd like to do."
    22 And sure enough, everybody wanted to
    23 line up along the sidewalk. Well the media said
    24 the Ramseys set this up and media consultant
    25 arranged this and what a sham. And that was the
    0309
    1 start of our disgust with the media.
    2 BRYAN MORGAN: And the same thing again,
    3 pursuant to my limit on this particular issue. I
    4 think my office got 400 phone calls in the first
    5 week or seven or eight business days after somehow
    6 word got out that we were involved. That was the
    7 driving factor in trying to get something to be
    8 done (INAUDIBLE).
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) between them,
    10 us, the police and these animals. And that's why
    11 we tried to put that in place.
    12 BRYAN MORGAN: And I agree with John,
    13 when he said it was a mistake we made, we're
    14 responsible for it. We needed lawyers, we
    15 (INAUDIBLE). We didn't have any idea how it was
    16 going to happen. And that was a mistake;
    17 completely misinterpreted. And we hired
    18 (INAUDIBLE) for that.
    19 MIKE KANE: Now you talked about the
    20 incoming stuff, what about the outgoing stuff? Did
    21 the media, either him or his firm or anybody else,
    22 have a role in formulating any of these strategies
    23 with either CNN or the people? Did any of them
    24 have any discussions with them?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I remember.
    0310
    1 BRYAN MORGAN: Nothing with CNN. I don't
    2 quite understand it. They had nothing to do with
    3 anything legal in a strategy for us.
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Are you talking about
    5 Kourten, or are you talking about --
    6 MIKE KANE: No, I'm not talking about
    7 you guys, I'm talking about Kourten.
    8 BRYAN MORGAN: The answer is, no.
    9 MIKE KANE: Well, may I direct it to your
    10 client?
    11 BRYAN MORGAN: You answer.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember saying
    13 that. I thought he was a total jerk, frankly. I
    14 talked to him probably three times, I suppose.
    15 MIKE KANE: And what (INAUDIBLE)?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE)
    17 BRYAN MORGAN: I want to make sure that
    18 we're not now getting into that gentlemen, who was
    19 hired through my firm to protect a privilege. So
    20 if this is not some open-ended labor so that
    21 everybody can run and talk to Pat Kourten.
    22 If we have that understanding, I will
    23 let John talk about it.
    24 MIKE KANE: Well, I mean, I don't know
    25 if that would be determined attorney/client
    0311
    1 privilege.
    2 BRYAN MORGAN: That's what it is. He was
    3 hired as our agent.
    4 MIKE KANE: Well, I don't know that --
    5 I don't want to get into any area if you can't --
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: If you're going start
    7 asking questions about stuff your read in the
    8 media, we're going to be here a long time and I'm
    9 going to be angry, because all of that was
    10 bullshit. How more pointed can I put that.
    11 MIKE KANE: Like I said, if I have a
    12 question and you don't want to answer it, just
    13 don't answer it.
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I want to stuff that's
    15 constructive. And if you start pulling stuff that
    16 you read in the media out and ask me about it,
    17 Whew. That's not constructive. That's not good
    18 information.
    19 MIKE KANE: I need to find out if it's
    20 true or not.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Why?
    22 MIKE KANE: Well, like I said, if you start
    23 second-guessing my motives, can't do that.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, all I can say is, Pat
    25 Kourten was brought in to keep these animals from
    0312
    1 people who were trying to do their work. That
    2 included the police, that included the city, that
    3 included my attorneys, that included our privacy.
    4 He had failed miserably. It backfired on us by the
    5 creatures that we tried to protect ourselves from.
    6 I tell you, we spend a lot of money on it, you
    7 know, painfully. So I don't know what else I can
    8 say about it.
    9 There was no strategy to try to influence
    10 anybody. We were in mourning, in deep shock. We
    11 didn't care about living. We'd lost the most
    12 precious thing in our life. We were trying to
    13 survive from hour to hour.
    14 MIKE KANE: As time went on, how about in
    15 the May first interview with the local media here,
    16 was there any discussions about how that would be
    17 setup?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Which was that? Was that the
    19 one in the hotel room?
    20 LOU SMIT: He's referring to the interview
    21 immediately after the (INAUDIBLE) interrogation by
    22 the Boulder Police Department.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: No, we just said, look we've
    24 been so criticized for not cooperating, which was
    25 ridiculous, because we'd happily agreed to do
    0313
    1 anything that we were asked. The only one thing we
    2 asked was, that if we're going to sit down in an
    3 interview, we wanted a representative for the
    4 district attorney, and that these fellows'
    5 recommendations.
    6 And we were just roundly criticized.
    7 False information was out there about what we had
    8 or hadn't done. And we said, well we'd do this. We
    9 want to say we've done it. For the reputation of
    10 our family for our reputation. And try to correct
    11 the record.
    12 So they set up that little meeting.
    13 MIKE KANE: Who set that up?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Charlie Russell, I think.
    15 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't really know.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that.
    17 MIKE KANE: Charlie Russell?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: He's the guy that was brought
    19 in as a buffer after we got rid of Kourten to try
    20 to -- and he put in girl that answered the media
    21 line, Rachel Zimmer. So now these guys had a
    22 number they could call.
    23 Of course, as far as I remember, wasn't
    24 telling them very much. But at least if their boss
    25 said go check with the Ramsey camp, they could
    0314
    1 call this number and Rachel would tell them one
    2 thing, well they'll call you. And of course, she
    3 never would. And he put that in place.
    4 He, again, tried to put a wall up. So
    5 they (INAUDIBLE). I don't remember if it was
    6 Rachel or Charlie or who, I don't know. But as a
    7 legitimate of the media people that we could find
    8 in the local area.
    9 MIKE KANE: Who hired Charlie Russell?
    10 BRYAN MORGAN: We did. My law firm.
    11 MIKE KANE: Okay. Did any media people play
    12 a role in formulating the flyers or the
    13 advertisements you put out?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall.
    15 BRYAN MORGAN: I was involved in that again.
    16 Subject to my understanding, our understanding.
    17 This is not a waiver of anything else. But I can
    18 answer that question if you want an answer.
    19 MIKE KANE: I want to hear Mr. Ramsey's
    20 answers.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know. I --
    22 MIKE KANE: Okay. Well if that's the answer,
    23 then that's the answer.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    25 MIKE KANE: Okay. That's all I need to know.
    0315
    1 Yesterday you spoke about when Commander Becker, I
    2 guess soon-to-be Chief Becker, came into the
    3 picture, that he would have, I don't know if you
    4 contacted him directly or he had an invitation of
    5 some sort?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, actually through our
    7 minister, Steve Thomas is one of the detectives.
    8 Gee, it would be nice if we could just talk and
    9 not give it second hand, because (INAUDIBLE)
    10 conversation. We just kind of like laughed. We sat
    11 down to coffee and said let's see if we can break
    12 the ice here.
    13 And we thought it was a genuine offer and a
    14 genuine attempt to establish some trust and
    15 communication. And we told Rol, we said, "Hey,
    16 great." We want to do that. He's a new guy. We
    17 certainly had no use for Eller. They said let us
    18 see if we can (INAUDIBLE) this crime.
    19 That's all we cared about. We didn't care
    20 about people's jobs or careers, how it looked in
    21 public. It was extremely frustrating for us that
    22 we can't sit down and have that kind of
    23 conversation.
    24 What we basically offered through Rol was,
    25 yes, we'd love to have you come to Atlanta, come
    0316
    1 to our home, let's sit down and talk. Let's get to
    2 know each other as human beings and let's go
    3 forward.
    4 And the response that we got back was,
    5 well that would be to their advantage. I want to
    6 meet them in a neutral place, not in their home.
    7 And I said, God, what are we dealing with? What
    8 kind of mentality are we dealing with here.
    9 We are the parents of a murdered child
    10 who was murdered in this man's jurisdiction. He's
    11 in charge of the investigation; he won't come to
    12 our home to call on us to tell us what's going on,
    13 to introduce himself. We give up.
    14 MIKE KANE: Where did he offer to meet you?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: He never did.
    16 MIKE KANE: He said a neutral spot.
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well that's all we heard. He
    18 never said what that was.
    19 MIKE KANE: How did you hear that? Was that
    20 from him directly or was that from --
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: From Father Rol. Oh, he would
    22 never talk to us. It was either Father Rol or
    23 maybe Bryan. (INAUDIBLE).
    24 MIKE KANE: What was your understanding
    25 about -- would be a mutual spot be in Georgia or
    0317
    1 Colorado?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: My impression was, it was
    3 the police station.
    4 MIKE KANE: Why that impression if it was
    5 neutral?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: You have a good point. (INAUDIBLE).
    7 But that was the impression we got. I don't know
    8 if we know anymore than that.
    9 BRYAN MORGAN: I do. But I'm not answering
    10 the question.
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: All right. I don't know.
    12 MIKE KANE: So was it your decision not to
    13 do anything? You were just (INAUDIBLE)?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I said, look it. Again,
    15 that is the mentality that's trying to help us. We
    16 don't need that kind of help.
    17 MIKE KANE: I think it was on the CNN January
    18 first interview, you said that at that point you
    19 wanted to hire -- do your investigation to make
    20 sure that there was an investigation. And I think
    21 you used the term "best minds in the country".
    22 What have you done to follow up on that?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we brought in John Douglas
    24 earlier on. Patsy and I have met with him
    25 individually, no bias. In fact, I think he told
    0318
    1 the news guys. He said, "I'm going to talk to
    2 them." And I think I know what the answer is going
    3 to be, because I'd been reading the paper.
    4 So we sat, each of us sat with him for probably
    5 an hour as an investigator. He came away --
    6 BRYAN MORGAN: Hold it, hold it.
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.
    8 BRYAN MORGAN: That's a waiver problem.
    9 We hired Douglas just like we hired this guy. And
    10 if you want to hear what John has to say, I'll let
    11 him give it to you, but I don't want to waive the
    12 privilege, and I consider it privileged.
    13 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    14 BRYAN MORGAN: If you want to hear an answer
    15 with that understanding?
    16 MIKE KANE: Sure.
    17 BRYAN MORGAN: Okay.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: He said, the report we got
    19 back was that the police these people are wrong;
    20 they're barking up the wrong tree. And then we
    21 took him to the house. We told him everything we
    22 knew. He spent several days there. He came back
    23 and said, I think it's somebody you know. I think
    24 it's somebody that is angry with you or jealous. I
    25 think it's somebody who has been in the house
    0319
    1 before.
    2 And that became kind of the foundation
    3 for who it could have been. We have had some
    4 follow-up with him. I know Ellis went back with
    5 him later; many months later. He was still very
    6 solid on that. And we offered his services to the
    7 police. I think he met with them for an hour or
    8 two. Our investigators have followed up leads that
    9 we've gotten. I think they've given most, if not
    10 all, to the police. I'm sure probably all.
    11 We ran those ads. One of the things that Douglas
    12 said right off, he said publish the ransom note.
    13 Put it on a billboard outside of town. Somebody
    14 will recognize that handwriting or the wording or
    15 the language. And we tried for months to get that
    16 to happen and we finally got the permission to
    17 print the letters or something (INAUDIBLE) and we
    18 had some full-page ads.
    19 We still have a tip line that we monitor everyday.
    20 I don't know what else to do. In fact, I would
    21 love to offer -- I was very impressed with
    22 Douglas.
    23 MIKE KANE: Would you have probably talked
    24 to them.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely not. I wouldn't.
    0320
    1 BRYAN MORGAN: Well I wouldn't. I'm not
    2 getting into a general waiver about this, and
    3 that's the reason I've protected it the way I did.
    4 John's giving you an accurate summary of the
    5 information John Douglas told us. And if there is
    6 to be a further discussion with Douglas, I need to
    7 be involved in that.
    8 MIKE KANE: I would think so. I will have
    9 to do a formal letter.
    10 BRYAN MORGAN: Okay.
    11 MIKE KANE: Anybody else that you brought
    12 in on a national level or who you got involved?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we brought in handwriting
    14 experts. Geez, I don't know. I had lots of people.
    15 I mean, what frustrated us so much in the
    16 beginning was we didn't think we -- Okay, we
    17 accept the fact that you look at us, but, God
    18 sakes, look elsewhere as well just as hard as
    19 you're looking at us.
    20 And we were never convinced that was going on. So
    21 we thought if anybody's going to do it, we've got
    22 to it.
    23 MIKE KANE: You mean like just what I'm
    24 doing now?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Now I feel -- Cause I
    0321
    1 wouldn't be here if we didn't feel this was an
    2 objective investigation run by people who really
    3 knew what they were doing. And let the chips fall
    4 where they may.
    5 MIKE KANE: And so it's Douglas and the
    6 handwriting people out there (INAUDIBLE).
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    8 MIKE KANE: Anybody else?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) I think. I don't
    10 remember.
    11 BRYAN MORGAN: We've submitted the essential
    12 reports that we have put together on account of
    13 our experts, and you've seen those. We're happy to
    14 participate further (INAUDIBLE). We're starting to
    15 see something very encouraging.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Because, very frankly, I'd
    17 rather spend money, and I know this isn't going to
    18 impact on Boulder County and budgets and all that,
    19 and for which we're very grateful, but if I'm
    20 going to be spending money, I'd rather spend it on
    21 a guy like Douglas that can work for you guys than
    22 my good friend Bryan here; for example.
    23 So consider that an offer on the table.
    24 I told these guys, I'll spend every dime I got to
    25 find out who did this. I've spent a lot, a good
    0322
    1 portion of what I had.
    2 MIKE KANE: How much?
    3 BRYAN MORGAN: No, no, no. That is, in my
    4 view, an improper question.
    5 MIKE KANE: Why is it improper? Because he
    6 said he would spend everything, and he's spent a
    7 lot and he's saying how much.
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know that I added it
    9 up, but I can tell you that we're virtually out of
    10 money.
    11 BRYAN MORGAN: I can give you the numbers
    12 if somebody can convince me that it is: a)
    13 relevant; and b) not privileged. I got the
    14 numbers. I had a large part. I don't mean to be
    15 antagonistic about this.
    16 DAVID WILLIAMS: I'm curious the line of
    17 question, Mike?
    18 MIKE KANE: Like I said, if you don't want
    19 to answer it, don't answer it. I'm not going to
    20 sit here and give a reason for every question that
    21 I offer. If you don't want to answer it, don't
    22 answer it.
    23 BRYAN MORGAN: We never had this problem
    24 in all day yesterday and all day today about any
    25 number of questions. It seems to me only fair if
    0323
    1 we are trying to cooperate under a poisoned
    2 atmosphere, because this man is at great risk,
    3 that we be given some sense of understanding about
    4 the purpose of questions which are not obvious
    5 (INAUDIBLE). That's all I'm trying to stay.
    6 MIKE KANE: I think generally, I told you
    7 yesterday, obviously somebody sitting there, if
    8 there's an intruder sitting there, these questions
    9 are going to be asked.
    10 BRYAN MORGAN: Okay. I accept that. I
    11 accept that as the purpose. And I think that what
    12 we will do is respond to that by letter. Because I
    13 want to be accurate about that.
    14 MIKE KANE: That's fine.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm sure I think I've spent
    16 a lot more than I have. But it's been very --
    17 MIKE KANE: And once again, if there's question
    18 that I ask, if you don't want to answer it, you're
    19 here voluntarily. You can walk out the door. Okay?
    20 All right.
    21 MIKE KANE: What steps have -- I mean that
    22 there's a handwriting, I know that John Douglas
    23 helped you. What affirmative steps, in your mind,
    24 just tell me have you taken to find that intruder?
    25 I mean what is the sum total of that in your mind?
    0324
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I feel like we've exhausted
    2 almost everything that we can do. I have racked my
    3 brain everyday as to who could have possibly have
    4 done this. What does the note mean, what does SBTC
    5 mean. All these little clues that were left for
    6 us.
    7 I think there is a -- I don't want to comment on
    8 that. I don't know how that is, because I don't
    9 know. But we do live here. I look at the Susan
    10 Chase thing. She's two days before Christmas
    11 bludgeoned in the head. No great clues. It's the
    12 same guy.
    13 A month ago there was a woman, probably not
    14 murdered because somebody interrupted him. Again
    15 I read it in the paper, blocks from my house. Same
    16 guy. It's got to be.
    17 MIKE KANE: Why is that?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Head injuries. Strong, you know,
    19 physical abuse to the woman; huge physical abuse.
    20 Susan Chase was a beautiful blond child, just like
    21 JonBenet. Somebody said these serial killers start
    22 out with children and get more aggressive. You
    23 guys would know that better than I do.
    24 MIKE KANE: Who told you that?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Just a friend. Everybody
    0325
    1 has tried to solve this; tried to help. And,
    2 frankly, my hope was that it was the same guy that
    3 did this attack a month ago and they got a
    4 profile image of him now.
    5 MIKE KANE: Um hmm.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: And that's the killer of JonBenet.
    7 Let's just hope he doesn't get killed or disappear
    8 before we can find out. I hope there is enough
    9 evidence that could tie him to the crime scene.
    10 MIKE KANE: At some point, and I can't
    11 remember, there was a reward that was posted. When
    12 was that?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: We offered a reward literally
    14 immediately. Nobody would publicize it. The police
    15 didn't seem interested in publicizing it. I think
    16 they were afraid they were going to get too many
    17 calls or something.
    18 We set up a deal with crime stoppers where we paid
    19 for that service. I think we announced the reward.
    20 And one of the reason we did this (INAUDIBLE)
    21 press conference was to publicize the reward?
    22 MIKE KANE: Were they --
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. There's
    24 (INAUDIBLE) but that was one of our objectives.
    25 And I was very disappointed that when the camera
    0326
    1 showed a picture of the reward poster, they cut it
    2 off at just about the dollar amount. So we didn't
    3 achieve what we wanted to achieve.
    4 I asked early on, I said look, "Does it need to be
    5 a million dollars?" (INAUDIBLE).
    6 MIKE KANE: Who said that?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: We just got it back from
    8 the police and we couldn't get anybody --
    9 MIKE KANE: Did you talk to the police
    10 about the amount?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.
    12 MIKE KANE: When was it that you said the
    13 people that they don't need it?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: You know, I'm sorry, I can't
    15 do this because I don't remember.
    16 MIKE KANE: So what was the figure that
    17 was settled?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: A hundred thousand. But
    19 we couldn't get anybody to publicize it or
    20 whatever. The police weren't interested in talking
    21 about it. It was very frustrating for us.
    22 MIKE KANE: Did you take other steps to
    23 publicize it, or what steps did you take?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we announced it.
    25 That's one reason why we did that press
    0327
    1 conference. Patsy had the poster and she held it
    2 up to the cameras and said, "We are offering a
    3 reward of $100,000."
    4 MIKE KANE: Prior to May, was there one?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It had been announced.
    6 We didn't get it. Nobody wanted to do it. We did
    7 it. We worked out a deal with Crime Stoppers. It
    8 cost us about five grand.
    9 BRYAN MORGAN: There's a written record
    10 about when we finally came to an agreement with
    11 Crime Stoppers. It was very difficult to conclude,
    12 which surprised me greatly. And we'd be happy to
    13 provide that to you.
    14 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) I guess I'm not
    15 familiar with how Crime Stoppers works out here.
    16 What was those discussions?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't have them directly.
    18 I don't know. But I remember it was a bit
    19 bureaucratic. You couldn't say this in the ad. And
    20 I said, "Come on, we're trying to find a killer
    21 here."
    22 They had sponsored a golf tournament.
    23 MIKE KANE: Was the initial award immediately --
    24 you offered a reward, was that through Crime
    25 Stoppers?
    0328
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember the sequence.
    2 But I remember the issue was that the police
    3 weren't interested in talking about it. The
    4 feedback I got was that they weren't prepared to
    5 handle all the calls that they would get from a
    6 nationally publicized number on the reward.
    7 So we went to Crime Stoppers and who were
    8 supposedly set up for that. Got that set up. I
    9 think that people we were immediately assigned. We
    10 paid the phone expense every month, maybe still
    11 are. And we tried to get the reward published. And
    12 then we ran some pictures of JonBenet with that in
    13 the Boulder paper. I don't remember when it was.
    14 What we were trying, the best we can do to
    15 (INAUDIBLE) this person, and we still look at this
    16 way. There's a perverse of me doesn't want to see
    17 it ever go off the front pages, even though it's
    18 very harmful to Patsy and I. But I don't want
    19 people to forget about it. I want to find this
    20 person.
    21 If this whole thing just dies and it loses public
    22 interest, and so I'm helpful even though we're
    23 awful tired of people sitting outside our home
    24 with binoculars and cameras, and following the
    25 children around with lights of in the back of the
    0329
    1 car, and those type of things.
    2 MIKE KANE: In arriving at the figure of
    3 a hundred thousand, did you talk to professionals
    4 or your friends?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we might have talked
    6 -- I don't remember. It may have been. I wanted to
    7 make it $118,000. but that seemed a little -- but,
    8 basically what I was told is $100,000 is a lot of
    9 money. And if somebody has something to say
    10 they're going to say it for a hundred grand.
    11 MIKE KANE: I just ask one final question.
    12 LOU SMIT: And we'll take a break.
    13 MIKE KANE: Did that produce anything?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: We got flurries of calls.
    15 Obviously it hasn't produced what I had hoped.
    16 MIKE KANE: Um hmm.
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess my impression is that.
    18 if there was something, we would have heard by
    19 now. So if we put a bigger reward on it, all it
    20 would do is put more pressure on the person. It's
    21 probably going to produce a phone call, or I don't
    22 know.
    23 MIKE KANE: Okay. That's it. It was quite
    24 a lot.
    25 BRYAN MORGAN: That's okay. There are
    0330
    1 things to, if you want to go off the record on
    2 this. There are people we can tell you to talk to,
    3 in charge of this, who really know the details
    4 that John does not. We, frankly, should have
    5 thought of that. I can give you those names, if
    6 you want that we've been corresponding with, and
    7 the (INAUDIBLE) to prove which were absolutely
    8 savaged by the Mayor of this city, saying it was a
    9 phony and fraudulent deal --
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: That's right. To divert
    11 attention from themselves and part of our
    12 strategy.
    13 BRYAN MORGAN: -- to divert attention from
    14 (INAUDIBLE) obtain as a result of conversation
    15 (INAUDIBLE) and it was horribly embarrassing to
    16 have to say what we did. But we got ripped in
    17 half. When we were running the ad, it was the
    18 language he suggested in it.
    19 Our experience in this whole matter has been
    20 frustrating beyond words to describe. We can fill
    21 it out anyway you want, Mike. I'm just asking. He
    22 doesn't have to defend himself.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: We're sorry to be a little
    24 feisty, but the media has earned a place in our
    25 (INAUDIBLE). It is never going to go away. They're
    0331
    1 like animals.
    2 LOU SMIT: And if I can say something too.
    3 (INAUDIBLE) Mike is just trying to really get the
    4 information that we're going to need.
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I know.
    6 LOU SMIT: And I know I have the contacts
    7 to do it.
    8 BRYAN MORGAN: And we will provide it.
    9 (BREAK TAKEN)
    10 LOU SMIT: Okay. For the camera, we took
    11 a break at about quarter till 11. Now it's just
    12 about three or four minutes after 11. We will
    13 continue. And, Mike, would you like to ask some
    14 more questions?
    15 MIKE KANE: Mr. Ramsey back to that Spree
    16 article, Spree Entrepreneurial. Had you ever seen
    17 that article? Do you remember the first time?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: When you showed this morning.
    19 MIKE KANE: So you don't know when the exact
    20 publication or that issue of that organization?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. I mean, it looked
    22 like it was a publication that they put out that I
    23 saw.
    24 MIKE KANE: The Spree?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: The Spree, right.
    0332
    1 MIKE KANE: Okay. And Spree, you say, is
    2 part of the Chamber of the Commerce?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: That's my understanding, yeah.
    4 MIKE KANE: Okay. Do you recall when they
    5 first contacted you about that?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: It seems to me it was months
    7 before the event because we had to hand in some
    8 background of the company. We had to agree to
    9 participate and we had to put together the
    10 collateral returns.
    11 It seems to me it was a summer event, but I don't
    12 remember that, no. It was months before. I think
    13 as much as six months before.
    14 MIKE KANE: They ran a photograph of --
    15 Lou asked you if that could have been JonBenet's
    16 handwriting and you said absolutely not. What is
    17 it about that that makes you so sure?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean I don't remember
    19 actually saying that. But she was a child. She was
    20 six years old. She didn't have particular good
    21 letter formation or anything yet. And the o's here
    22 and the n's are uniform n's. and the letters are
    23 the same size. That's not a six year old's
    24 handwriting.
    25 MIKE KANE: Could (INAUDIBLE)?
    0333
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there's a cursive "a",
    2 a cursive "a" maybe. She doesn't write cursive.
    3 This is bizarre. This is somebody who is sick who
    4 did this.
    5 MIKE KANE: What about Burke? Could he have
    6 written it?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's just the fact that
    8 that is not something that Burke would do. For
    9 starters, his handwriting is not very good either.
    10 Those notes look to me like they're written by
    11 somebody who has quite good handwriting, who can
    12 consistently write. And Burke certainly, two years
    13 ago wasn't -- I mean, he's gotten (INAUDIBLE) in
    14 school for not having good handwriting. It
    15 something he needs to work on.
    16 MIKE KANE: I think you said that when
    17 Lou asked you about the art on her hand, you said
    18 that you were aware of that but you had just
    19 recently heard about that. Where did you hear
    20 that?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I think I heard about
    22 it through the media, somehow.
    23 MIKE KANE: And what did you think about
    24 it then?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess it kind of stunned
    0334
    1 me. I mean it sounded bizarre. I think we were
    2 asked that question, I can't remember now. But it
    3 just seemed unusual. It didn't seem right.
    4 MIKE KANE: Did you do anything at all?
    5 Talk to anybody about it?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I mentioned to our (INAUDIBLE)
    7 That it seemed strange.
    8 MIKE KANE: Did you talk to Mrs. Ramsey?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we had a conversation
    10 about it, yeah. I think you guys may have asked us
    11 about it, actually.
    12 MIKE KANE: And what did Mrs. Ramsey (INAUDIBLE)?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think she was as -- we
    14 hadn't seen it, obviously. I think she wasn't as
    15 adamant as I am now that wasn't possible at the
    16 time. The first impression was, yeah, it is. We
    17 (INAUDIBLE) occasionally.
    18 LOU SMIT: One quick question. Could that
    19 have been Patsy's handwriting?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: She has very good handwriting.
    21 That just looks sick to me. It's the only
    22 impression I had.
    23 MIKE KANE: The note, do you have a copy of
    24 this?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. But I've seen it, yeah.
    0335
    1 MIKE KANE: It's been released to you. What
    2 was your first reaction?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Obviously my first reaction
    4 was horrifying. I screamed. Just went through this
    5 moment of panic, I guess.
    6 MIKE KANE: Did you believe it at first or
    7 did you disbelieve it?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: It took seconds to sink in,
    9 you know. (INAUDIBLE) you don't know what to
    10 believe. What is this, you know. Again,
    11 (INAUDIBLE) believe it pretty quick.
    12 MIKE KANE: What made you believe?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Because she was not there;
    14 she was gone.
    15 MIKE KANE: And did you look in her room
    16 by the time you read this?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I (INAUDIBLE).
    18 MIKE KANE: What did you do to determine
    19 that she was gone?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy and I went to the room,
    21 I think I ran up and looked again. That was it.
    22 MIKE KANE: Did you look any place else?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: At that time?
    24 MIKE KANE: Yes.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think so.
    0336
    1 MIKE KANE: I think you touched on this,
    2 and I want to go into it a little bit more than
    3 this. You were pretty adamant about calling the
    4 police and the FBI obviously and all these
    5 references to knowledge of police tactics and
    6 stuff like that.
    7 Was there any discussion about not calling the
    8 police?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, for a moment. I mean,
    10 Patsy said, it says not to call the police. I
    11 said, call them anyway. We called them. I mean,
    12 there's no question in my mind that that was the
    13 right answer.
    14 MIKE KANE: Did you have any concern
    15 about doing that? Even when you had made that
    16 decision, did you have any concerns?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No. Because we couldn't
    18 just sit there. We would have gone mad.
    19 (INAUDIBLE). We didn't. No.
    20 MIKE KANE: Did you have concerns cars
    21 pulling up when they said --
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: We were just anxious for
    23 them to get there. They actually took care of that
    24 themselves as soon as they found out what's going
    25 on. They moved their cars and anybody else that
    0337
    1 came had parked away.
    2 MIKE KANE: You didn't even think about
    3 before, that they got you under surveillance or
    4 anything?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    6 MIKE KANE: It said, "You will withdraw
    7 $118,000 dollars from your account." What did you
    8 think about when you saw this?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: It was just a strange amount.
    10 And I was thankful I could do it. Because it
    11 wasn't a hundred million. So I could deal with
    12 that.
    13 MIKE KANE: Um hmm.
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought it was obviously
    15 strange. I thought it was strange that they wanted
    16 $20 bills and $100 bills. $100 bills. Because
    17 those were -- I don't even like to carry $100
    18 bills. (INAUDIBLE). So that's all I can say, that
    19 that was odd. It seemed amateurish, you know, the
    20 whole thing.
    21 MIKE KANE: Yeah. Yesterday you said the
    22 word childish.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    24 MIKE KANE: What do you mean? What was it
    25 about this that --
    0338
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: well (INAUDIBLE) and you
    2 know that just some of the language in this, it
    3 sounded like some radical young person or people.
    4 MIKE KANE: What's in the language, do you
    5 feel, go into that type of mind?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean, it's just a really
    7 sick note; kind of calculated kind of pressure
    8 through measures and tactics. It sounded militant.
    9 It started and used my name a lot. It started out
    10 "Dear Mr. Ramsey" and then it went into "John",
    11 "John", "John".
    12 That, to me, is unusual for people to use your
    13 name a lot. The only person -- at some point, I
    14 thought that, gee, that sounds like so and so
    15 talking, because they use my name a lot.
    16 MIKE KANE: When did you have that thought?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.
    18 MIKE KANE: Was it that day?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I doubt it. At least,
    20 I don't remember. Fleet uses your name a lot. John
    21 this, John this. And that's unusual. And that was
    22 my only impression. I didn't think a whole lot.
    23 Fleet and Priscilla, we thought were our closest
    24 friends. So that's a bizarre thought. But it was a
    25 thought.
    0339
    1 MIKE KANE: You said that with the $118,000,
    2 one of the first thoughts that you had, was that
    3 it could be doable?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    5 MIKE KANE: When you say it was doable,
    6 did you have like liquid assets?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: No. On one hand, it struck
    8 me as (INAUDIBLE) to come up with. And then I
    9 thought, why isn't it 100. I would have wanted a
    10 million. Why not two million. It's just a very
    11 strange number. And I then I thought maybe --
    12 I mean, we sat and analyzed this thing that
    13 morning and tried to figure out who the hell this
    14 could have been. And my thoughts was maybe it was
    15 somebody who needed $100,000 and hired a hit man
    16 for $18,000. I mean, there are always some kind of
    17 logical explanation there.
    18 MIKKE: And now it's been 18 months that
    19 you been thinking about that. Do you have any
    20 other thoughts on it? I mean, I know this has been
    21 -- you see, it has to have a correlation with you
    22 (INAUDIBLE).
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I think that was just
    24 a bit coincidence. That was my net bonus after
    25 tax. And it wasn't exactly 118; it was 118 and
    0340
    1 something.
    2 MIKE KANE: Do you think this was a random
    3 figure as opposed to a purposeful figure?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: A purposeful. I think there
    5 were a lot of things left around that were
    6 purposeful.
    7 MIKE KANE: But you haven't been able to --
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, the closest that
    9 I've come to have some believability is this
    10 theory that Father Rol came up with. There were
    11 psalms, which were circled in the Bible, which
    12 apparently were fairly vengeful psalms. 118 Psalms
    13 was a vengeful psalm in the King James Bible. It
    14 talked about victory (INAUDIBLE). I think I've
    15 read it a hundred times, I guess, (INAUDIBLE).
    16 I guess I would accept that kind of a tie more
    17 than I would the bonus amount.
    18 MIKE KANE: Would that figure that you
    19 said you had, was it assets?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE), for lack of
    21 a better word.
    22 MIKE KANE: So it wasn't something that
    23 you were trying to approximate what they thought
    24 would hurt?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    0341
    1 MIKE KANE: You also said yesterday that,
    2 when you were asked, when Lou asked you about just
    3 in mulling this over, over the last 18 months,
    4 that it might be someone who knew your schedule.
    5 What schedule are we talking about, that day or in
    6 general?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had a fairly busy
    8 week and a half planned and we had talked about, I
    9 talked about going up to the lake that day. You
    10 know, briefly, we said before we left, do you want
    11 to just go Christmas day. And I said, well, you
    12 know, the kids had all their toys, and they need
    13 to stay with their toys. And we had Christmas
    14 dinner with the Whites there that night.
    15 So we knew there was going to be some volatility
    16 about them being there that day, that night. And
    17 certainly we were going to be there until the
    18 night before the boat trip, and then just for the
    19 evening. And then we were leaving early the next
    20 morning.
    21 MIKE KANE: So somebody would know that
    22 you were there Christmas night?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. It was just blind
    24 luck. I mean, most people are at home on Christmas
    25 night. It was unfortunate for us a coincidence
    0342
    1 that we were.
    2 MIKE KANE: There are these phrases in
    3 here that seem to have some kind of Hollywood
    4 connection? What did you think about that?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: It didn't dawn on me at
    6 the time, because we (INAUDIBLE) so much. But that
    7 came out later. There was a couple of phrases that
    8 came out later: "you must grow a brain"; and we
    9 can talk about the of the fat cat; and other fat
    10 cats here, or something like that.
    11 MIKE KANE: You're not the only fat cat
    12 around.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Those are the phrases
    14 that we, you know, later we thought we had heard
    15 from people around us who have tried to
    16 reconstruct who, where.
    17 MIKE KANE: When you say we thought?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy and I.
    19 MIKE KANE: Okay. And how was it that you
    20 heard?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, grow a brain, fat
    22 cats. We'd heard those before.
    23 MIKE KANE: Were you ever able to --
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had some names
    25 we came up with. We passed on (INAUDIBLE) our
    0343
    1 friends in Atlanta, "Atlanta fat cats" later in
    2 that week.
    3 MIKE KANE: When was that specifically?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: That was when she was back;
    5 when we were back for the funeral.
    6 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) friends saying that
    7 about?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, when we went back, Ron
    9 Westmoreland had like a little reception after the
    10 funeral, and some of my friends were there, and he
    11 has a beautiful home in Atlanta. He makes a lot of
    12 money. It's not a stretch for him to have it. It's
    13 very nice.
    14 My friends were around me, consoling me and trying
    15 to give me advice. And to be a part of that group
    16 it's the Atlanta fat cats.
    17 MIKE KANE: And grow a brain. Does that
    18 ascribe to anybody?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember now. I'm
    20 trying to remember that confrontation, but I don't
    21 know. But I kind of forget who we came up with on
    22 that. Do want me to give any number --
    23 BRYAN MORGAN: I do.
    24 MIKE KANE: No.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: One of the names that came
    0344
    1 up was Jim Reno because Don Paugh, I remember him
    2 saying that in the mall once. "Grow a brain," to
    3 one of the media indigents. And that was one of
    4 the recollections that came up.
    5 MIKE KANE: How about that "listen carefully"?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it didn't really mean much
    7 to me.
    8 MIKE KANE: What about the reference to "the
    9 delivery will be exhausting, so I advise you to be
    10 rested"?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, that concerned me because
    12 I didn't know whether that meant it was going to
    13 be the next day that we'd get a call, and I'd be
    14 out of mind by then. Certainly couldn't rest.
    15 MIKE KANE: What about connections about
    16 having something along that line before?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't have anything
    18 (INAUDIBLE).
    19 MIKE KANE: And likewise, the "talking to the
    20 stray dog"?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    22 MIKE KANE: Look at the second page --
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It didn't mean anything
    24 to me. It doesn't ring a bell. It didn't then.
    25 MIKE KANE: Subsequently, now that we've had
    0345
    1 discussions, do you know where that might have
    2 come from or an association?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: No, we hadn't really focused
    4 on that.
    5 MIKE KANE: In the ads and the flyers
    6 you put out, did you make references to movies
    7 like "Dirty Harry"; because that was an original
    8 line in "Dirty Harry."
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Is that right?
    10 MIKE KANE: You didn't know that until today?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) said that, no.
    12 MIKE KANE: Okay. And any discussions about
    13 that and going through all of this --
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not the "stray dog" line.
    15 We talked about some of the other lines that came
    16 out. One of them came out as apparently as this
    17 "Ransom" movie, which I never saw. There was
    18 similarities, we were told. Some people told us if
    19 that it was or if we read the newspaper or what,
    20 but apparently there's some very strange
    21 similarities to some of these phrases, none of
    22 which I don't believe, we had seen or have seen.
    23 MIKE KANE: Have you ever seen "Dirty Harry?"
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Seems like I have. That's an
    25 old movie, right?
    0346
    1 MIKE KANE: Um hmm.
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) that it's Clint
    3 Eastwood, but I don't remember what it's about or
    4 (INAUDIBLE).
    5 MIKE KANE: Did you see it before, or had
    6 you seen it since?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I haven't seen it since.
    8 If I saw it, it was well before.
    9 MIKE KANE: Did you see that in a theatre or
    10 rented it?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember seeing it.
    12 I just remember I know the name and it's Clint
    13 Eastwood. Usually what we did was we rented. If we
    14 watched a movie we rented them. We watched them at
    15 home. We very rarely went to the theater. I'm not
    16 sure that I did go to the theater and see "Dirty
    17 Harry."
    18 MIKE KANE: How often did you rent?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Actually not that often.
    20 We had a projection, video thing in our bedroom
    21 which would probably used it more frequently when
    22 we first got it. But the kids watched, they liked
    23 their kinds of movies.
    24 The thought was when we rented a movie, we put it
    25 in the bedroom so we could all pile in the bed and
    0347
    1 watch a movie together. But (INAUDIBLE), the kids
    2 liked and I liked the ninja movies and Patsy liked
    3 something else, so. It was always difficult to
    4 rent a movie that appealed to the whole audience.
    5 MIKE KANE: What was it, kind of action
    6 movies?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I liked Harrison Ford
    8 movies, "Indiana Jones", things that have
    9 airplanes and boats and stuff going on. It's
    10 entertainment but not -- I liked old movies, you
    11 know, the old, old classics.
    12 MIKE KANE: What's your favorite movie
    13 of all?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: "African Queen".
    15 MIKE KANE: what others?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: "Animal House" is one of
    17 favorites. I've watched that one probably five
    18 times or more. I mean, "African Queen", if I could
    19 watch that kind of movie every week, I'd do it.
    20 They just don't exist. That's a great movie.
    21 MIKEE: Were you with a fraternity?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    23 MIKE KANE: And was it (INAUDIBLE) "Animal
    24 House"?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). Not quite as bad.
    0348
    1 MIKE KANE: Anyone break a guitar over
    2 your head?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: No, we just rode our
    4 motorcycles and (INAUDIBLE).
    5 MIKE KANE: That movie system that was
    6 up in the bedroom, was that already added when you
    7 had the remodeling done?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    9 MIKE KANE: And do you know how that
    10 came about? I mean, was that -- I mean, was it
    11 your idea or was it Patsy's?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: That was mine. We had
    13 wanted a basement home, which we enjoyed back in
    14 Atlanta. Be we never went down in the basement. So
    15 it was silly to have that in the basement. Just
    16 put in our bedroom where we live, you know, when
    17 we're home most of the time.
    18 MIKE KANE: Did it have a screen that
    19 came down from the ceiling?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. And the room was
    21 long so it was kind of a perfect set up to do it.
    22 MIKE KANE: So that you never saw the
    23 (INAUDIBLE) either before or after? How about some
    24 of the other ones that your ad talked about the
    25 "Speed"?
    0349
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I watched "Speed" on an
    2 airplane, and airliner without headphones. And if
    3 you ever watch that movie without the sound, it's
    4 the stupidest movie you can imagine. (INAUDIBLE)
    5 throughout the whole movie. And it didn't have
    6 sound. So I've seen it, but without the sound.
    7 MIKE KANE: Before or since?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Before. When it was out,
    9 it was on one of the airlines.
    10 MIKE KANE: When you looked at this and
    11 you said that you laid it on the floor and studied
    12 it, what did you make of it?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I was panicked. Patsy was
    14 by the phone and what should I do, what should I
    15 do. And I don't like to use the phone. (INAUDIBLE)
    16 cause if there are reservations to be made or this
    17 or that I always to get Patsy to do it. That's
    18 just the way our family works.
    19 MIKE KANE: Even under the circumstances.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Even then.
    21 MIKE KANE: Patsy, how was she acting?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: She was hysterical.
    23 MIKE KANE: Didn't that concern you, that
    24 she would make the call being hysterical?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no. She was said, "what
    0350
    1 can I do?" and I said, "Call the police." And she
    2 was standing by the phone. And it was how it
    3 happened. (INAUDIBLE) could talk better. I mean,
    4 she was hysterical at that time. I was just trying
    5 to sort things out and can you call the police.
    6 MIKE KANE: And you had discussed about,
    7 just a little bit about, calling (INAUDIBLE)?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Very briefly. (INAUDIBLE).
    9 MIKE KANE: Okay. Do you remember it
    10 specifically saying that?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: It says not to call the police.
    12 MIKE KANE: Okay. And you said you said
    13 something about, I guess when you were asked about
    14 what are your impressions about (INAUDIBLE) how
    15 you said something about the possibility of it
    16 being a woman? Maybe you could tell me about that
    17 a little bit.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, there were apparently some
    19 similarities of Patsy's handwriting the notes. All
    20 the experts we had looking at it says it's almost
    21 at the point of being excluded. But they couldn't
    22 quite exclude it because there were just basic
    23 things that we all learn to do in handwriting.
    24 But I had said (INAUDIBLE) if it's a woman, and he
    25 said, no, you can't tell. You can't tell gender by
    0351
    1 handwriting. That's just my amateur suspicion. The
    2 fact that apparently there was no (INAUDIBLE).
    3 There were another few reasons.
    4 MIKE KANE: Last July, I think it was, that
    5 you (INAUDIBLE) and I think at that point you said
    6 that you had been thinking about it about, once
    7 again, the possibility of a woman, and you had
    8 thought Priscilla White. (INAUDIBLE), the fat cat
    9 thing.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. We went back to Douglas's
    11 analysis that it's somebody you know; it's
    12 somebody that's been in the house; it's somebody
    13 that's hanging with you who's jealous. And if I
    14 put that box around it, and what was subsequently
    15 extremely bizarre behavior on both their parts.
    16 MIKE KANE: What kind of behavior?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: A lot of it I didn't see,
    18 but just heard about it. But when John Fernie
    19 wouldn't let Fleet on the airplane because he
    20 thought he was too out of control. My brother
    21 called, they were supposed to stay at the
    22 Westmoreland's and they nearly got cross-wise, and
    23 they're two of the nicest people you'll ever meet.
    24 They wouldn't stay there.
    25 They went and stayed at my brother's and my
    0352
    1 brother called me and said that he had a gun in
    2 the house. I was, apparently lost. And he said,
    3 Fleet White just left here and he's on his way
    4 over. I think he's extremely dangerous. I got him
    5 out of the house. Apparently he had those -- and
    6 my brother is as calm and as level headed as any
    7 person I know who is right to the core. Whatever
    8 happened there.
    9 MIKE KANE: What about Priscilla? I think
    10 you said (INAUDIBLE)?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Always when there was tending
    12 to the children, he was the mom. I mean, he took
    13 care of the kids. He was a stay home dad. He
    14 wanted to have more kids and Priscilla didn't want
    15 to have anything to do with it. He just seemed
    16 very attentive to the kids.
    17 (INAUDIBLE) if I narrowed that box down any
    18 further to, I would pick Priscilla.
    19 MIKE KANE: You think she was less (INAUDIBLE)?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Only because it would be
    21 very hard for me to believe that Fleet would do
    22 such a thing.
    23 MIKE KANE: You're saying that it wouldn't
    24 be hard that Priscilla would though?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Less hard. And there's a lot
    0353
    1 of data that flowed in afterwards to us from
    2 friends that said, you know, Priscilla was very
    3 jealous of Patsy. And they made a comment that
    4 they'd rather eat glass than live in a house like
    5 Rod Westmoreland's. It was hatred for wealth. It
    6 was like strange stuff that was coming out, coming
    7 back.
    8 MIKE KANE: Is Fleet wealthy?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Fleet? I don't have a clue.
    10 MIKE KANE: He was always described (INAUDIBLE).
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. (INAUDIBILE). He bought a
    12 house; he was apparently to get a mortgage. He
    13 kept commenting about his mortgage rate. He didn't
    14 have a job and he was pretty open about that .
    15 I just assumed that he must had some money stashed
    16 away.
    17 MIKE KANE: Did Priscilla work?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Well she use to say things
    19 were tight and they had to -- cause she was going
    20 to go on this trip to New York and Patsy wanted
    21 her to go with Kathy and she wouldn't go because
    22 they couldn't afford it. So it's hard to tell.
    23 MIKE KANE: You also mentioned Jeff Merrick's
    24 wife. What was it about that?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Merrick was a guy that
    0354
    1 I worked with at AT&T when we first got out of the
    2 Navy. And we went through the management
    3 indoctrination class together and just kind of
    4 became friends and stayed in touch more by
    5 telephone over the next 20 years.
    6 He was good about calling once a year just to stay
    7 hello and he was a real talker, and we always talk
    8 for half an hour. So if felt like I knew him well,
    9 but I didn't.
    10 Then he called me, I don't know when it was
    11 exactly, but he said that he had just been fired
    12 from his job at Snap-On Tools where he had been
    13 for 18 years and he needed a job, did we have
    14 anything. And I knew he was a distribution guy and
    15 we were in the distribution business.
    16 So I got kind of excited about it and had him come
    17 in for an interview. And we used to use a
    18 psychologist to get a profile on the people who
    19 we're going to hire. I mean, that's an
    20 organization who determines whether people are
    21 good or not to do what we're going to hiring them
    22 to do.
    23 And he got interviewed for them and he was going
    24 to work for Don Paugh, my father-in-law. And the
    25 psychologist came back and said, no, that's not
    0355
    1 the one. He's too big picture. He's not a detail
    2 guy; he's not a hands on guy. Don didn't want to
    3 hire him.
    4 And then Jeff was just insistent and call me at
    5 home, "Hi. Did you guys make a decision yet." And
    6 he'd helped out once. So I kind of forced the
    7 decision, let's hire the guy. It was against
    8 everybody's good judgment. It didn't work out.
    9 Three or four years later, Don finally did what
    10 everybody knew pretty much should have been done,
    11 was terminate his employment and did it. I did it
    12 in as amicable a way as we could so we had time to
    13 get back on his feet and (INAUDIBLE). But he just
    14 flew off the handle. He said, "Does John know
    15 about this?" He said, "I'm going to talk to him."
    16 And then I was out of town at the time or
    17 something. And I guess he became very verbally
    18 violent. And he sat in my office and said, "I'm
    19 going to bring you to your knees." And I said,
    20 "Jeff, you wouldn't be in here if we weren't
    21 friends." And I said, "I'm not going to override
    22 something that somebody in this organization has
    23 done. I still consider you a friend."
    24 It was just a very -- and he filed a grievance
    25 with Lockheed ethics group and Lockheed is very
    0356
    1 sensitive about ethics in government contracting
    2 businesses. And he wrote this big, long letter
    3 about Don and I and the company and how we
    4 (INAUDIBLE).
    5 Lockheed brought in people and we were
    6 investigated for weeks. But we cleared up
    7 everything. But he was a very hostile (INAUDIBLE)
    8 so when the people asked if there was anybody at
    9 work (INAUDIBLE).
    10 MIKE KANE: What about his wife?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I always thought his wife
    12 was kind of strange. Jeff was married to, what I
    13 always thought was a nice lady. They had a couple
    14 of kids. They got divorced. It was a pretty
    15 hostile divorce. He was always hauling him into
    16 court. (INAUDIBLE) precipitated in divorce, this
    17 woman he worked with.
    18 Her kids didn't live with her, which is strange.
    19 She was divorced; the kids lived with their dad. I
    20 (INAUDIBLE) thought it was kind of odd. So she was
    21 as angry as Jeff.
    22 MIKE KANE: Was he married to that second
    23 wife when this all happened?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    25 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) she was his angry
    0357
    1 wife behind her husband who as mad as the devil at
    2 anything. I could see, perhaps, that she wasn't
    3 the sweet loving mother.
    4 MIKE KANE: Go on, go ahead.
    5 LOU SMIT: I just have another question
    6 on Jeff Merrick. I have something in the report,
    7 and I'm going to have to do just a little research
    8 on it, but I think that there was something about
    9 a $100,000 figure (INAUDIBLE) was what his payoff
    10 was. And I kind of compare that with a $118,000
    11 just to see if there was any correlation there?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: See, when he first demanded
    13 what he wanted, to leave without making a fuss, I
    14 think it was $250,000. And I forget the logic, but
    15 if you took that number and subtracted what he
    16 actually got left, a hundrerdish thousand about.
    17 LOU SMIT: That's what I was wondering about,
    18 because it could have been 118 that you owed him
    19 or something. And he just figured that.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember exactly.
    21 I remember coming up with around a hundred.
    22 (INAUDIBLE) but I don't remember any kind of 118.
    23 We gave him the severance. We paid for outsource
    24 or outplacement counseling. There were a number of
    25 things that we did in that up to the $250,000.
    0358
    1 LOU SMIT: Is there a way of determining that?
    2 I mean, I'm thinking he told me 118 thousand.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I think Gary Yearman, he was HR
    4 director, and still is. He would have remembered
    5 it very well, because he handled it.
    6 MIKE KANE: Access is still (INAUDIBLE) is
    7 still (INAUDIBLE)?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I guess he was (INAUDIBLE)
    9 the whole episode. Don Paugh also because he was
    10 the supervisor.
    11 MIKE KANE: You said that you don't actually
    12 look at that and some similarities. What
    13 similarities do you no in Patsy's handwriting.
    14 (INAUDIBLE)?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't see any. I mean,
    16 it was sloppy; Patsy has very nice handwriting.
    17 MIKE KANE: Um hmm. If someone were
    18 attempting to disguise their handwriting though,
    19 is there any lettering?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I mean, it was almost
    21 like child writing when I first looked at it. It
    22 certainly doesn't look like anybody's writing.
    23 MIKE KANE: Any of the letters as opposed
    24 to just the whole thing?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I really don't.
    0359
    1 MIKE KANE: You don't see any similarities?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: You said that you didn't notice
    3 anything; it got better on the third page.
    4 (INAUDIBLE)?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I looked at them side by
    6 side. There's was quite a dramatic difference.
    7 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: I was looking at the content,
    9 I wasn't looking at that kind of stuff.
    10 MIKE KANE: Do you remember discussing
    11 this with any of the anybody and pointing out this
    12 is very scratchy and this is much more
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    14 (BREAK TAKEN)
    15 LOU SMIT: We are on and I should note that
    16 it's right at one o'clock, and it's still on
    17 Wednesday the 24th of June. Everybody is present
    18 that was present before and we're ready to
    19 continue. And Mike Kane will start out with the
    20 questioning.
    21 MIKE KANE: Okay. We were talking about
    22 the ransom note and the handwriting on that. I
    23 believe when we broke. Once again you know your
    24 wife's handwriting better than anybody. Is there
    25 anything in here that you've see would rule her
    0360
    1 out?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it's a bizarre note.
    3 It's a bizarre thought process. That would rule
    4 her out, number one. Patsy just doesn't have that
    5 capacity to think that way. I don't know. That's
    6 out of the question. That's absolutely out of the
    7 question.
    8 MIKE KANE: Are there any particular words
    9 and phrases that you think would, I mean, out of
    10 that whole context of it, any particular words or
    11 phrases that you think is --
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, having a mother talk
    13 about beheading your child is just nonsense. This
    14 is written by a very sick person, in my opinion.
    15 MIKE KANE: Do you get, in reading that,
    16 if the person that wrote is trying to frame you or
    17 frame her?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I don't because,
    19 frankly, I thought this myself. If somebody really
    20 wanted to frame us, they wouldn't have left a
    21 note.
    22 MIKE KANE: Why do you think that?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well that's evidence that I
    24 didn't write it; Patsy didn't write it. The
    25 handwriting experts have said Patsy or I didn't
    0361
    1 write it. Our guys have said on a scale of one to
    2 five, Patsy is 4.5 five against not writing it.
    3 I think that whoever did this is very, very insane
    4 and clever. Because it looks different as well as
    5 some other stuff we've seen. So I think they were
    6 teasing us.
    7 MIKE KANE: By leaving the (INAUDIBLE)?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Just like these all these
    9 other little clues you see being left around?
    10 MIKE KANE: Teasing you or teasing the police?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Teasing all of us.
    12 MIKE KANE: What I'm thinking about teasing,
    13 do you think that there's anything in there that's
    14 trying purposely (INAUDIBLE) say a diversion to
    15 fool the police or to fool you?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it certainly bought
    17 some time. I think everybody assumed JonBenet was
    18 not in the house. Maybe it was an attempt to get
    19 money. I don't know. I could have been attempt to
    20 get money. I don't know. I could have been a
    21 legitimate attempt to get money. But maybe because
    22 of the police activity or whatever, they didn't
    23 follow through at that end. I don't know.
    24 MIKE KANE: Do you have anything about the
    25 note?
    0362
    1 LOU SMIT: No.
    2 MIKE KANE: The autopsy report, have you
    3 seen it?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    5 MIKE KANE: You haven't seen it?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I have not. I can't look at
    7 that.
    8 MIKE KANE: Okay. Have you discussed in general
    9 what's in there, in general?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Very little. It's hard to discuss
    11 with her accidentally (INAUDIBLE).
    12 MIKE KANE: What would that be?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: That there was her skull
    14 fracture; that there were abrasions in her pubic
    15 area; two of her organs were swollen which
    16 indicated a slow death.
    17 MIKE KANE: Did you do your own investigation
    18 into this? Did you have any experts look into
    19 those -- like you said there were bruises in the
    20 pubic area?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if we did.
    22 MIKE KANE: I mean here, now?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I know. No, not to my knowledge.
    24 MIKE KANE: I'll bring another aspect about
    25 the (INAUDIBLE) fragments.
    0363
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think we've had
    2 pathologists look into the report, but I don't
    3 know where or what they said.
    4 MIKE KANE: You never received the report
    5 then?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    7 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    9 MIKE KANE: How about Mrs. Ramsey?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    11 MIKE KANE: What do you understand about
    12 that trauma, vaginal trauma?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: It's something I don't like
    14 to think about. I don't understand or read
    15 anything about it, because there are certain facts
    16 that I just can't bear to know.
    17 MIKE KANE: There has been some discussions
    18 that I've heard since I've gotten involved in the
    19 case that perhaps that it was prior vaginal
    20 trauma. Now, I'm not talking sex assault or sex
    21 abuse or some indications at least, that there may
    22 have been something prior.
    23 Is there anything that you can think of that would
    24 account for that? Any opportunities she would have
    25 had to be alone with somebody or even something
    0364
    1 innocently that might account for that?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, certainly not that
    3 we're aware of. I mean the kids stay with
    4 babysitters from time to time. Susan Savage was a
    5 babysitter, a family babysitter that the kids
    6 would stay with. They stayed with her for a few
    7 other.
    8 Patsy's mother did a lot. She would come out and
    9 stay with the kids if were going to be gone for a
    10 while. There was a young college, well she's in
    11 college, but she's college-aged girl who sat for
    12 us several years before that if we needed her to.
    13 (INAUDIBLE) watch the kids.
    14 I remember Patsy when she went down to the
    15 (INAUDIBLE). But it had been regular at that time.
    16 I don't think I can remember.
    17 MIKE KANE: Were there any short-term
    18 babysitters like if you go out for the evening?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well even Susan used to
    20 do that a lot.
    21 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: This other girl did before
    23 that. Susan pretty much lived for us when Patsy
    24 had cancer that year. She did live with us. She
    25 was there from dawn till dusk for literally for
    0365
    1 the whole year. (INAUDIBLE).
    2 MIKE KANE: Any other family members sit
    3 with than your mother-in-law?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Don Paugh stayed for
    5 a few times, cause he was their grandfather. Or
    6 even they would go to his place. He had an
    7 apartment over on Pearl Street. Not often or for
    8 very long. You know, for an hour or two here.
    9 MIKE KANE: And overnights?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, there might have been
    11 one or two. If we were going to be out late and we
    12 didn't' want to wake the kids up when they come
    13 home.
    14 MIKE KANE: What do they think about them?
    15 You know there are certain babysitters you say,
    16 (INAUDIBLE) you can't wait, and another on they
    17 say they don't want hear about. Are they any?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I can recall.
    19 MIKE KANE: Did they enjoy staying with their
    20 grandfather?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    22 MIKE KANE: And with Susan.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. As I recall, I think
    24 probably the babysitter they weren't going to get
    25 to go (INAUDIBLE). They only like to go and sleep.
    0366
    1 So babysitters in general might (INAUDIBLE) a
    2 particularly welcome sight.
    3 LOU SMIT: How about neighbors, John? Any
    4 of your neighbors (INAUDIBLE)?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: That babysat?
    6 LOU SMIT: I don't think so. I don't think
    7 anyone?
    8 MIKE KANE: Was there ever, I've never
    9 seen her medical records but I heard that you
    10 talked about comments about I noticed she had
    11 (INAUDIBLE) at certain times. Was there ever
    12 treatment that you or Mrs. Ramsey had to do at
    13 home for that?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I did. I don't know.
    15 MIKE KANE: Any antibiotic treatment or anything?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: If there was, that was kind of
    17 between Patsy and her, you know.
    18 MIKE KANE: Any other questions?
    19 LOU SMIT: Would there have been anything
    20 -- I know there was a bedwetting problem or
    21 something. And they do have certain kinds of
    22 devices for bedwetting to avoid the leak. I don't
    23 know what that means. But anything on that ever
    24 occurred that you recall?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean we read about that,
    0367
    1 and of course, I don't know if JonBenet had a
    2 bedwetting problem; I'm not sure she did. I think
    3 all kids wet their beds; I know my older kids
    4 certainly did. The kids used to wear these all
    5 night pampers or whatever they were called. I
    6 wouldn't classify it as a bedwetting problem that
    7 I was aware of.
    8 MIKE KANE: You weren't aware of one?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    10 MIKE KANE: I guess that's relative term,
    11 a bedwetting problem. And I don't mean to define
    12 it, but just for our purposes here, let's define
    13 it as once a week.
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.
    15 MIKE KANE: Let's say that is a problem.
    16 Were you aware whether under that definition that
    17 maybe once a week or more that she would wet the
    18 bed?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I wasn't even aware of that.
    20 But I think that wouldn't be at all abnormal.
    21 MIKE KANE: Based on?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Based on having raised four
    23 older kids. I don't know. Melinda would
    24 occasionally wet her bed. She would have been
    25 Burke's age. I don't think she was much older.
    0368
    1 MIKE KANE: Was she treated for that?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    3 MIKE KANE: How about your other children?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I'm aware of.
    5 MIKE KANE: Do you have any specific recollection
    6 of the other children?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well John Henry did, I think,
    8 occasionally (INAUDIBLE). (INAUDIBLE) diaper stage
    9 to no diapers.
    10 MIKE KANE: But beyond us, I think that's
    11 two or three years old, six or seven.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I think that was very
    13 normal in our family.
    14 MIKE KANE: So there was never any discussions
    15 that you had with anybody: with a doctor, with
    16 Mrs. Ramsey about it being a problem?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: NO.
    18 MIKE KANE: Okay. Her bed apparently had
    19 a plastic wrap around. Were you aware of it?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it doesn't surprise me as
    21 what we would have done.
    22 MIKE KANE: Would have done?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well she hadn't gotten fully
    24 trained or whatever the word is. All the kids have
    25 that on their beds. (INAUDIBLE).
    0369
    1 MIKE KANE: Would there be a time that it
    2 was more likely that it would happen than other
    3 times?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. As I recall,
    5 we would always try to get both Burke and JonBenet
    6 to go to the bathroom before they went to bed.
    7 Sometimes that's hard if they were asleep. If they
    8 fell asleep watching television or driving in the
    9 car, and we always hated to wake them up.
    10 Sometimes we didn't, usually.
    11 MIKE KANE: Is there some other times
    12 that she it might have been more likely that she
    13 wet the bed?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I can remember that was
    15 something Patsy was trying to do, is we would get
    16 them to go the bathroom before they went to bed.
    17 MIKE KANE: I don't know what the heck
    18 the meaning of this is, but I'll (INAUDIBLE). One
    19 of the things of which I found curious, I don't
    20 know why it's curious, but it is to me.
    21 Your house is obviously a pretty big house and
    22 pretty well appointed. You would know, there was
    23 no thing for the toilet paper to hang on in her
    24 bathrooms.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: When we found that house,
    0370
    1 it was not finished. I had remodeled it and got it
    2 95 percent done. Then we never occupied it. We put
    3 it on the market. And so there were light fixtures
    4 and little things just like that. (INAUDIBLE)
    5 Patsy's remodeling had really kind of messed up
    6 the house as far as what we required. So we had to
    7 do a very extensive remodel and go back and put in
    8 all those little light fixtures. It was something
    9 that we needed to put in. Those are the things
    10 that (INAUDIBLE).
    11 LOU SMIT: I want to show him just one.
    12 MIKE KANE: Yeah.
    13 LOU SMIT: This is a picture of a toilet here.
    14 Take a look at that?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks like it has
    16 been used but not flushed. Right. And that would
    17 have been taken fairly shortly in the after the
    18 scene.
    19 We were just wondering if it was her habit not to
    20 flush or would she have gone to the bathroom that
    21 nigh?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy would know better than
    23 I. But I don't think the kids are particularly
    24 good about flushing the toilet. So that could have
    25 been earlier. I don't know.
    0371
    1 LOU SMIT: By the way, that's photo number
    2 19.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: JonBenet had to have to
    4 have been very tired that night. She'd been up
    5 early for Christmas. They had been playing all
    6 day. It was just the whole day. She was absolutely
    7 sound asleep when I put her to bed. And I can't
    8 imagine her to have even gotten up to go to the
    9 bathroom.
    10 LOU SMIT: Even after she had gone to bed,
    11 would she have get up and drink anything
    12 (INAUDIBLE)?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't know for sure.
    14 Burke does now, but I don't know that she did it.
    15 MIKE KANE: You said that they always had
    16 plastic wrapped on their beds. Do you know if
    17 Burke did?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Do you mean now or back then?
    19 MIKE KANE: Back then.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. He might have.
    21 But, I don't know.
    22 MIKE KANE: Do you remember when, in fact,
    23 she wet the bed?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.
    25 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)? What would she do?
    0372
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: In fact, the only reason
    2 I would know if the kids wet their beds is if the
    3 sheets were off the bed in the morning.
    4 MIKE KANE: And then what?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Wash them, put new ones on.
    6 It was just no big deal.
    7 MIKE KANE: All right. Do you have any
    8 other questions in that area?
    9 LOU SMIT: I was wondering a little bit
    10 about the second floor laundry and how that was
    11 laid out there?
    12 MIKE KANE: Yes, I was going to ask that.
    13 Do you recall (INAUDIBLE)? Let's talk about the
    14 remodeling. When did you purchase that house?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: It was in the fall of '90,
    16 I believe. (INAUDIBLE).
    17 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: And we looked for about
    19 six months. We lived in an apartment.
    20 MIKE KANE: Where was that?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: We stayed with Don Paugh
    22 in Pearl Street. It was one that we rented when we
    23 first started commuting. Instead of staying in a
    24 hotel, we rented an apartment. And then buying
    25 this house, which need some work.
    0373
    1 MIKE KANE: Were there additions on there
    2 at the time you bought the house?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: That was on.
    4 MIKE KANE: It just hadn't been finished?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that part of it was
    6 actually okay. What hadn't been finished was the
    7 third floor bedroom area. It was finished but it
    8 wasn't done very well.
    9 They kind of gutted the second floor, the old part
    10 of the second floor and made one big room. And we
    11 wanted bedrooms there. They had elevator shafts
    12 right through the middle of the house. It was just
    13 put in the worst spot because it tore up the every
    14 floor it went through. And that had to go.
    15 So it was just really, it was an older couple and
    16 she had a bad leg, and they put the elevator so
    17 that she could get up and down. It was made for
    18 them and nobody else. And we tore it out once we
    19 bought it.
    20 MIKE KANE: When did you start remodeling
    21 that?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably shortly after we
    23 bought it. And it went on for quite two or three
    24 years in bits and pieces. We had it totally
    25 finished before this Historic Home Tour, which I
    0374
    1 think was in '94.
    2 One of the reasons I wanted to be in the Historic
    3 Home Tour was so we'd get it finished. And we'd
    4 draw a line in the sand and say, it's done. I
    5 remember that.
    6 MIKE KANE: So was decorating kind of a
    7 continuing process?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was. We didn't
    9 really get into decorating the house much because
    10 we had spent so much time and money on remodeling.
    11 So by the time we got that done we were just,
    12 that's it.
    13 MIKE KANE: Who made the decision on
    14 remodeling? You know, of what content, design
    15 specifics? Was it you or was it Patsy?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I like that stuff. I wish
    17 I would have been more (INAUDIBLE). So I avoid
    18 doing that kind of thing. I usually come up with
    19 the mechanical layout. Patsy was good at
    20 decorating with colors and so forth. That's kind
    21 of the way it worked.
    22 MIKE KANE: Did you ever have a disagreement
    23 over what you're spending on this or what you were
    24 going to put into it?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. But I don't remember
    0375
    1 what was said in every process. I mean I couldn't
    2 add up. And I was afraid to for a long time.
    3 (INAUDIBLE).
    4 MIKE KANE: That's it? (INAUDIBLE) income tax.
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) how deep I was
    6 in the house just to satisfy my curiosity. But no,
    7 that was not an issue.
    8 MIKE KANE: Was that second floor laundry
    9 room there in the old -
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: The sink and cabinets were
    11 there. We relocated that circular stairway, the
    12 spiral stairway and put the laundry (INAUDIBLE) in
    13 there.
    14 MIKE KANE: So the spiral staircase wasn't
    15 there originally?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was there but it was twisted.
    17 There was a door down below. We probably had 20
    18 doors in our house. There were many doors. But
    19 that's that area was kind of (INAUDIBLE). I think
    20 that was closet. We had that changed to that
    21 stackable washer/dryer there.
    22 MIKE KANE: And when was that done?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, the house was kind of
    24 done in two phases. The first phase was the first
    25 floor, which probably could have been where the
    0376
    1 spiral staircase -- so that probably would have
    2 been done from the first phase. Yeah, the second
    3 phase was with the third floor. So '91, '92,
    4 probably through '93.
    5 MIKE KANE: And why was that washer/dryer --
    6 that's not a full size washer/dryer as I can see?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: We wanted a washing
    8 machine/dryer on the second floor so we could just
    9 take the clothes. The basement's not a
    10 particularly nice basement and it was just too far
    11 to take the clothes down. It wasn't by the
    12 bedrooms. I don't care. I don't ever (INAUDIBLE)
    13 or something like that, I don't think Patsy ever
    14 used those washer and dryer in the basement.
    15 MIKE KANE: Who usually did the laundry?
    16 (INAUDIBLE) I always have.
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy usually does it.
    18 Yeah, she usually does it. We had a cleaning lady
    19 would come once or twice a week, but I don't know
    20 if she did the laundry.
    21 MIKE KANE: The cleaning lady is Linda
    22 Hoffman?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she's the cleaning
    24 lady most recently. For a year or two there was a
    25 couple of girls who used to come during the day
    0377
    1 that were kind of one of those cleaning service.
    2 They just came to clean the house and then someone
    3 let them out.
    4 I don't think we had anybody before that. (INAUD).
    5 MIKE KANE: So you had like a service
    6 and then Linda --
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    8 MIKE KANE: -- became the regular?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    10 LOU SMIT: I just had a quick question.
    11 I just want to know if they had any problems with
    12 them? Did Patsy or yourself ever go down and help
    13 JonBenet? Did she ever cry or indicate that she
    14 had wet her bed or anything like that? Do you
    15 remember anything like that.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No. I don't remember if
    17 it was Burke or JonBenet, but they would change
    18 beds if they had an accident. They would start
    19 doing that and usually if they were uncomfortable
    20 they'd just change beds.
    21 LOU SMIT: Can you remember Patsy getting
    22 up to go down and help JonBenet?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't. I can't remember.
    24 I mean not that she called out.
    25 LOU SMIT: How about JonBenet herself?
    0378
    1 Did she have any concerns about bedwetting? Did
    2 she ever say anything to you or do you remember
    3 discussions with JonBenet about her bedwetting?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    5 MIKE KANE: Did she ever talk to you about
    6 this? Did she say I have accidents, Daddy, or
    7 something like that?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: This just wasn't an issue at all.
    9 MIKE KANE: In the general maintenance of the
    10 house, and I think you mentioned Mervin Pew fixed
    11 that thing in the bathroom. Or for little things
    12 around the house, do your remember how they would
    13 taken care of? Or would you take care of them?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I'd take care of a few
    15 things, but not much. I fixed the roof once.
    16 MIKE KANE: Where was that?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: A squirrel had chewed a hole
    18 through the roof where it joined the new part,
    19 yeah.
    20 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    22 MIKE KANE: What did you do?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I just took a piece of tin and
    24 formed it around and tarred it.
    25 MIKE KANE: And that was outside up on the
    0379
    1 roof?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    3 MIKE KANE: Not on the top.
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: It was on the black part,
    5 the top black part.
    6 MIKE KANE: I believe that I did go to the
    7 houses. I know it's kind a flat roof area off of
    8 the bathroom. Is that where you found that?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it's above that. And
    10 typically, it hadn't been working for two or three
    11 years, and I got things that needed fixing and I
    12 got to fix them. But once the house was done, we
    13 had the guy who used to mow the yard, Patsy had
    14 the Bob Wallace wash the windows once or twice.
    15 On occasion we'd call (INAUDIBLE). That's about
    16 it.
    17 MIKE KANE: That auxiliary in the back,
    18 is it another boiler?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    20 MIKE KANE: Was that part of the renovations?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    22 MIKE KANE: To add extra heating capacity?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.
    24 MIKE KANE: Now you said that Vern Lapue,
    25 on that occasion was looking to make a little
    0380
    1 extra money and stuff like that? How did that come
    2 about?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy arranged it, so
    4 I'm just going by hearsay. I think they were in
    5 our house over Thanksgiving while we were gone and
    6 doing other things: cleaning windows, fixing that
    7 tile in the shower. Patsy gave them a list of
    8 things to do. I think it was just Linda and her
    9 husband. But I'm not positive.
    10 MIKE KANE: Had she ever hired him to do
    11 any kind of maintenance in the house?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't think so.
    13 MIKE KANE: After that Thanksgiving weekend,
    14 do you know if Vern La Peu was ever back in the
    15 house to do any other types of those things?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge.
    17 MIKE KANE: And was it him that brought it up,
    18 that he can fix it, or was he asked, do you know?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.
    20 MIKE KANE: Did he volunteer?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: My recollection is they needed
    22 some work and Patsy gave them something to do. So
    23 I don't know which one -- I wasn't even aware that
    24 they were there until we were gone. That was just
    25 something she would take care of.
    0381
    1 MIKE KANE: There's been a lot of (INAUDIBLE)
    2 about people who had keys. So I don't want to
    3 belabor that point. But you said yesterday that
    4 you had a garage door opener. Was one in each car?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: There were three or four.
    6 There was one in each car. Well, I take that back.
    7 There were three garage openers. The cars we had
    8 most recently had those kind of new programs. So
    9 whether the garage door opener is in the car or
    10 not, I open it in the unit. So there was a
    11 separate unit.
    12 There was won that we put out under the barbecue
    13 grill cover once for a while as just kind of a
    14 backup for us getting in the garage.
    15 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was prior to December '96,
    17 but I would say it was in '96 some time. I think
    18 my son had a garage door opener in his car.
    19 LOU SMIT: By the way, where was John
    20 Andrew's car at night?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: He had parked it, I think
    22 down near where he lived on the hill. And
    23 (INAUDIBLE) parking in the driveway or something
    24 like that.
    25 LOU SMIT: No one was in charge of (INAUDIBLE)?
    0382
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: It was just parked.
    2 LOU SMIT: Any other garage door opener
    3 In his car?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe so.
    5 LOU SMIT: Any of his friends have access
    6 to his car that you remember?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I aware of. I
    8 wouldn't be surprised if they did. But I don't
    9 know anything, no.
    10 LOU SMIT: I Just have one more question.
    11 And it was just a follow up question. You said
    12 that when you took JonBenet on Christmas evening,
    13 you had her in your arms and went inside the
    14 garage door. And then who closed that garage door?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.
    16 LOU SMIT: Or was it closed?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't say for sure that it
    18 was. I don't know. We had had other occasions
    19 where we just forgot to close it. And most likely
    20 Patsy closed it.
    21 MIKE KANE: Did you talk her with her
    22 about that (INAUDIBLE)?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. No we didn't. So I don't
    24 actually know. Although I think I would have. I
    25 don't remember if I ever looked that morning in
    0383
    1 the garage. I might have. I don't remember closing
    2 it.
    3 LOU SMIT: When you went out the next morning,
    4 was it closed or open?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I would have noticed
    6 if it was opened. I didn't go around back to see
    7 it, when I went to check that little side door.
    8 But I think I would have noticed if it was open.
    9 But it looks like it was closed.
    10 LOU SMIT: If you're up in your bedroom,
    11 can you hear the garage door going up and down?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I think you can, yeah. I
    13 think so.
    14 LOU SMIT: Did you hear the garage door
    15 going up or down?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I didn't.
    17 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) yesterday, you
    18 said what was on in the inside. Where on the
    19 inside?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was right there.
    21 MIKE KANE: Right inside the door?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    23 MIKE KANE: To the left as you walked through
    24 the door?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    0384
    1 MIKE KANE: What was your daily routine
    2 on a normal working day?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I'd usually wake up naturally,
    4 without my alarm clock. I usually wake up 6:30 or
    5 so, when the sun came up. I'd get up and take a
    6 shower.
    7 MIKE KANE: The sun wake you up?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Normally.
    9 MIKE KANE: In the winter time (INAUDIBLE)?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I cannot sleep late. I've never
    11 been able sleep late. So I'm always waking up
    12 between six and seven.
    13 MIKE KANE: Do you wake up during the night
    14 at all?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I would usually get up once
    16 a night to use the bathroom.
    17 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Only if they were loud or
    19 the
    20 phone rang or if there was some loud commotion
    21 outside.
    22 MIKE KANE: You said you windows open
    23 so if the kids were partying in the neighborhood,
    24 you remember that?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, right.
    0385
    1 MIKE KANE: That would wake you up?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: In the past, yeah.
    3 MIKE KANE: You ever call the police or
    4 anything for something like that?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Doesn't make sense.
    6 It usually died down after a while.
    7 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    9 MIKE KANE: Would you hear more from the
    10 alley or from the street from the kids?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I never heard anything from
    12 the alley. It would tend to sound like it was from
    13 down the street, down 15th, towards campus.
    14 MIKE KANE: Do the windows in that area
    15 up there; were they all open a little?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. Yeah. These are
    17 all new windows that we put in.
    18 MIKE KANE: I see.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: And they were all openable.
    20 MIKE KANE: Is it the crank type?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. They were all crank
    22 types. These are all lift up. They would open all
    23 the way and we had shutters so we didn't
    24 (INAUDIBLE), no.
    25 MIKE KANE: And which windows did you
    0386
    1 leave cracked?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually it was this one.
    3 Just that one. Except if it was really hot, I'd
    4 crank those open. These are hard to get to because
    5 the couch is in front of them.
    6 MIKE KANE: Okay. I'm sorry. You were talking
    7 about your typical day. You get up on your own?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I usually take a shower.
    9 Go to the bathroom and take a shower. I usually
    10 take a shower in the morning. That's the way it's
    11 always been. I usually shave in the shower with a
    12 disposal razor or sometimes a use and electrical
    13 razor at the sink.
    14 I usually get dressed partly. Sometimes I go down
    15 and make coffee and come back up and get dressed.
    16 Just turn on the television and watch the news and
    17 the weather channel before I went to work. I
    18 usually leave for work at eight or 8:30.
    19 MIKE KANE: Did Mrs. Ramsey normally get up
    20 after you?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, usually.
    22 MIKE KANE: Would your getting up wake
    23 her up or did she use an alarm?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: No, she didn't use an alarm.
    25 She either woke up or I woke her up.
    0387
    1 MIKE KANE: By the time that you left, she
    2 was up generally?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well she
    4 would get up and get the kids ready for school.
    5 That and so forth.
    6 MIKE KANE: On a non-school day, would
    7 the kids wake up on their own or do they use and
    8 alarm, do you know?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they would just wake up
    10 normally. Quite often they would get up earlier
    11 on a non-school day and lay down and watching
    12 cartoons or something.
    13 MIKE KANE: Did you know if it was the
    14 same time on the weekends as the weekdays?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Not too far off. I usually
    16 wake up around the same time.
    17 MIKE KANE: And would both kids get up
    18 around the same time?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, pretty much, pretty much.
    20 MIKE KANE: You couldn't say which one was
    21 the earlier riser?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm trying to remember actually.
    23 I used to joke how I wanted them to be a great
    24 colleges student, I forget which one it was. I
    25 think it was Burke.
    0388
    1 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: They were sleeping in. I
    3 think Patsy might remember.
    4 MIKE KANE: And so when they got up they
    5 would kind of just turn on the TV?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, turn on the TV. And
    7 sometimes they would be playing, what we call here
    8 this TV room (INAUDIBLE).
    9 MIKE KANE: Okay. So by eight, 8:30 you
    10 were out of the house and you'd go to your office?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    12 MIKE KANE: I mean, this is obvious, that
    13 you did have a typical days a lot of days. But if
    14 this was a typical day, would you have lunch at
    15 the office, go out to lunch, go home for lunch?
    16 MIKE KANE: If it was either, we'd go out.
    17 I usually like to get there at 8:30 because that's
    18 when office hours start and I wanted to set an
    19 example. And usually go out, one or two people,
    20 just happen to go around the block up to the mall
    21 and decide what I wanted to eat.
    22 Sometimes I'd go by myself and get a
    23 hotdog and bring it back to my desk.
    24 MIKE KANE: Did you go home to eat very
    25 often?
    0389
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Not very often, no.
    2 MIKE KANE: And how late would you normally
    3 stay?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, 5:30, 6:00, usually.
    5 MIKE KANE: And then would you come right
    6 home?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    8 MIKE KANE: Were there any occasions when
    9 you had an evening meeting?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well certainly when I first
    11 got involved in the business I used to have to go
    12 out to dinner a lot when we had people in town.
    13 But after Beth died I just don't do that anymore,
    14 yeah, only when necessary. I was pretty selective
    15 when I'd go out to dinner when people were in
    16 town.
    17 MIKE KANE: So when you came home in
    18 the evening, would dinner be ready?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, we eat out a lot. We
    20 stayed in too. When either Patsy would have
    21 something that she's cooked or we go to Pasta
    22 Jay's or we probably ate out two or three times a
    23 week. (INAUDIBLE) kind of places.
    24 MIKE KANE: The kids liked that?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    0390
    1 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    3 MIKE KANE: The kids want to eat out.
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) that's my ideal
    5 place to go.
    6 MIKE KANE: How about JonBenet?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: They just kind of went with
    8 the flow. Burke more than her, if I recall, he
    9 likes to eat at home. He likes his free time. He
    10 doesn't like to be (INAUDIBLE) to do things. And
    11 she wasn't that way. (INAUDIBLE).
    12 MIKE KANE: So (INAUDIBLE)?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I'd go during school
    14 days or a school day. (INAUDIBLE) Patsy and Burke,
    15 or (INAUDIBLE) they used to watch the business
    16 channel in the morning. Those were the only two
    17 channels I watched on television.
    18 The kids would be in bed by 8:30, 9:00.
    19 And we'd go to bed shortly thereafter.
    20 MIKE KANE: Were they
    21 difficult to get to bed, either of them?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not
    23 really. If there had something going on, they'd
    24 sometimes put up an argument. They used to like to
    25 watch the movies when they went to bed. Sometimes
    0391
    1 we would let them do that. That was about the only
    2 argument we had, whether or not they could watch
    3 the movie that night. It wasn't an argument, it
    4 was just a discussion.
    5 MIKE KANE: What kinds of things broke
    6 you out of your routine (INAUDBILE) your routine
    7 would be disrupted?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, my travel, of course.
    9 Patsy did a lot of -- she was in school a lot. I
    10 think mostly it was just traveling. If I wasn't
    11 traveling, there wasn't anything else.
    12 MIKE KANE: And where do you travel?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, California, frequently
    14 Europe, Mexico occasionally, Canada occasionally.
    15 I really didn't frequent the East Coast. I
    16 eventually fly California the most. San Francisco
    17 mostly.
    18 MIKE KANE: And that was to go to offices
    19 of Access or (INAUDIBLE)?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: It was mainly to meet with
    21 just suppliers or going to Lockheed to them.
    22 MIKE KANE: Lockheed had a lot of influence
    23 in the day-to-day operation?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they didn't pay attention
    25 to us all for several years. And then as we got
    0392
    1 bigger they started to pay attention to us. They
    2 just let us ran own business.
    3 MIKE KANE: How often did you go to
    4 California for?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, probably once a month I
    6 supposed.
    7 MIKE KANE: How long on average?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, we'd go for how long?
    9 MIKE KANE: Yeah.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I try to just do overnights,
    11 sometimes one-day trips, but I didn't like to go
    12 out and spend two or three days. I tried to work
    13 it so I could go out in the morning and come back
    14 the next afternoon.
    15 MIKE KANE: Did you usually go commercial?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I do that sometimes.
    17 MIKE KANE: Is there a reason for that?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was usually cheaper.
    19 It was quicker.
    20 MIKE KANE: To go commercial?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, if you go to somewhere
    22 like where San Francisco was, cause you can fly
    23 directly there with the airlines, I didn't want to
    24 go out. Some of us think you don't ask the
    25 question unless you know the answer, but I had a
    0393
    1 feeling that Lockheed wouldn't be too excited
    2 about me using my airplane for business travel. So
    3 I just didn't do it.
    4 MIKE KANE: Did they closely watch the bottom
    5 line?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well that's just a liability
    7 issue. A lot of companies don't like employees to
    8 use their private airplanes for travel. They knew
    9 if I could rent a jet, then they wouldn't say a
    10 thing. But I just had a feeling it would be an
    11 issue so I really didn't do it much. I used it a
    12 couple of times when we were going somewhere that
    13 it would be real pain to go on the airline.
    14 MIKE KANE: And how often did you go to
    15 Europe (INAUDIBLE)?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we opened an office,
    17 we opened for business in Europe in '93 or 4, and
    18 I did several trips just to kind of understand the
    19 market and some of the suppliers that we
    20 potentially could work with and just kind of a
    21 research business to understand what we're getting
    22 into.
    23 And then we opened an office and I used
    24 to visit that office maybe twice a year.
    25 MIKE KANE: Where is it? Do you have
    0394
    1 several?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we opened in Amsterdeem,
    3 Netherlands. That was our main office. And then
    4 we, over time, had an office, we bought a small
    5 company in Bristol, England, and had an office in
    6 Paris. I think those were the only three offices I
    7 visited: Bristol, Paris and Amsterdeen.
    8 MIKE KANE: And what was it that your
    9 company distributed?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Basically all (INAUDIBLE)
    11 work stations and associated software, (INAUDIBLE)
    12 products.
    13 MIKE KANE: Is that unique to (INAUDIBLE)?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: PC units.
    15 MIKE KANE: PC units. Right. Where was
    16 the first office that you opened in Europe?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Amsterdam.
    18 MIKE KANE: Amsterdam?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Amsterdam (INAUDIBLE)
    20 Amsterdam.
    21 MIKE KANE: What lead up to that?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, expansion. We were
    23 growing. Sun Microsystems was a big part of our
    24 business. We were trying to develop some balance,
    25 develop new sources. One of the way we could do
    0395
    1 that was to move geographically.
    2 One of the fundamental things I'd always
    3 done in the past was (INAUDIBLE) my own
    4 self-critique, so I didn't want to be caught in
    5 that making that mistake. So I felt that for us to
    6 be successful long term, long term being ten years
    7 out, to get people to our company so we have the
    8 mass and the efficiency as well as the reach to do
    9 what we did globally.
    10 Actually the first expansion was in
    11 Canada because we felt that would be easiest. It
    12 wasn't (INAUDIBLE), it was close, same language.
    13 So actually we opened up in Canada first, got our
    14 feet wet. And then our parent, the Lockheed
    15 people, (INAUDIBLE) encouraged us to go to Europe
    16 and get that going. So we did.
    17 MIKE KANE: And who made
    18 the decision and how did you make a decision on
    19 like where in Canada? Would that be something that
    20 as CEO would make or was it board decision?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I
    22 basically made those kinds of decision because we
    23 didn't have an active board. Those are my choices
    24 totally.
    25 MIKE KANE: And the same with the European
    0396
    1 sites?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: As far as the Amsterdam
    3 location.
    4 MIKE KANE: And what was the hitch there?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I looked in Amsterdam,
    6 I looked in Brussels, both of which had labor
    7 bases with multilingual. They were neutral
    8 countries in terms of emotions. It was pretty much
    9 a rule of thumb, you didn't want to be in France,
    10 Germany or England because one of the three hated
    11 the other and you couldn't be successful unless
    12 you were in a small country. There were all the
    13 historical emotions you had deal with.
    14 But it was mainly because they had great
    15 labor pools, and so we had six languages that were
    16 spoken in our Amsterdeen office. Plus the Dutch
    17 are very good business people. Their economy is
    18 set up for business. (INAUDIBLE) we had a sister
    19 company that had an office there which they
    20 (INAUDIBLE) and it just became a logical choice.
    21 MIKE KANE: And then you went to Paris
    22 and Bristol?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we opened some small
    24 offices around last year. We bought this small
    25 company, it was in Bristol I think a year, two
    0397
    1 years later. We got a set of new (INAUDIBLE).
    2 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) speculation today,
    3 and people say that they've seen you in the Red
    4 Light District in Amsterdam?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I was in the Red Light
    6 District once with a group of people, and perhaps
    7 even with Patsy, as a tourist. If anything would
    8 make you celibate, it would be going to the Red
    9 Light District in Amsterdam. It's a nasty place.
    10 But we were there as tourists. We were probably
    11 there for 30 minutes along with all the other
    12 American tourists that were there. That's the only
    13 time I was in there, yeah.
    14 MIKE KANE: Do you have any questions?
    15 LOU SMIT: No. You have covered a certain
    16 range of topics there. I was just going to say
    17 that I know you talked about going down as your
    18 normal practice to make coffee in the morning.
    19 Would you, like, make coffee or is that --
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, usually I would. Whoever
    21 got down there first, it's usually me.
    22 LOU SMIT: Okay. Another thing, you said
    23 you used to walk through the mall, you used to go
    24 to various restaurants and things like that. Are
    25 you acquainted with the "Bulk and Army" store?
    0398
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    2 LOU SMIT: Do you ever go in there?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I have been there once that
    4 I can remember. Maybe twice. I went in there, I
    5 think it was probably in the winter of '95 because
    6 we were getting ready for a (IANUDIBLE) and we
    7 were doing that (INAUDIBLE) during that summer of
    8 '95. I was looking for some camping stuff. We
    9 needed some silverware to take. It wasn't too big,
    10 to take on a boat trip. It was a long distance
    11 race.
    12 But I don't remember if I bought anything
    13 there or not. I might have gone in there with
    14 Burke or John Andrew, just walking by. But that
    15 was it.
    16 LOU SMIT: Have you purchased any cord or
    17 duct tape or anything like that?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely (INAUDIBLE).
    19 MIKE KANE: I want to talk about you and
    20 Patsy for a little bit. (INAUDIBLE) many of those.
    21 There have been people that said that at the time
    22 Patsy, that may have been preoccupied with work.
    23 What's your (INAUDIBLE)?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's probably fair.
    25 Normally Patsy never criticized me on, since we've
    0399
    1 been married, just buying this Harley-Davidson
    2 motorcycle. She is --
    3 MIKE KANE: When did you buy it?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: This past winter. Patsy
    5 is very easy going. She never, to me, objected
    6 when I traveled. It was something I had to do. But
    7 it was just okay. See you when you get back. So,
    8 no doubt that I spent a lot of time I work. It was
    9 my life. But she certainly didn't (INAUDIBLE).
    10 MIKE KANE: There is a (INAUDIBLE)?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
    12 MIKE KANE: What kind of a Harley is it?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: It's a Fat Boy.
    14 MIKE KANE: Is it new?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it's new. A friend of
    16 mine got me interested in it. It kind of became a
    17 winter project for me.
    18 MIKE KANE: And you (INAUDIBLE)?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Last time I think March or
    20 April of this year.
    21 MIKE KANE: Oh, '98?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    23 MIKE KANE: So if she had a complaint
    24 about the time that you were putting in at work,
    25 she would tell you about it?
    0400
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't recall her
    2 ever saying that to me.
    3 MIKE KANE: I think I read that her mom
    4 came out and lived with you. Who would you say
    5 gave you more heat? Your mother or (INAUDIBLE)?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well she and her mother are
    7 real close and I think we both had different
    8 roles. She took care of the kids. But I tend to
    9 focus more so I get a lot of reading and talk to
    10 doctors and that kind of logistics side of her
    11 treatment.
    12 I traveled with her back and forth to (INAUDIBLE)
    13 where she was treated frequently. Occasionally it
    14 was hard for her mother to travel. So it was kind
    15 of a team effort. But that's her mother. So, sure,
    16 she got a lot of support and compassion from her.
    17 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE), that would be her
    18 impression, as far as your roles?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    20 MIKE KANE: Were there any parenting duties
    21 that you kind of assumed at that time that you
    22 hadn't been involved in much before?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: There were I guess. (INAUD).
    24 We had to make sure the kids were fed and dressed
    25 for school and those kinds of things. I've kind of
    0401
    1 forgotten now. There were periods of time she was
    2 actually she was actually incapable of doing it.
    3 MIKE KANE: Did you bring in, what's her
    4 name? Susan?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Susan.
    6 MIKE KANE: When was she brought in?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: She was there a long time
    8 during that period. I think a year almost. I think
    9 she either quit her job or coincidentally didn't
    10 have a job. I don't know what it was. But she was
    11 available. And she was there, I would say
    12 literally everyday all day, as I recall, most of
    13 that time.
    14 MIKE KANE: And was her primarily role to
    15 take care of Patsy or to take care of the kids?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was the kids mostly. I
    17 think (INAUDIBLE) and I took care of Patsy for the
    18 most part.
    19 MIKE KANE: And how did you hook with her?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Susan? I don't remember. Yeah,
    21 I don't know. Patsy would know.
    22 LOU SMIT: Did she have boyfriend or husband?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't think. She was
    24 very overweight; a young girl, but very
    25 overweight. Very nice person that came from a
    0402
    1 wonderful family. (INAUDIBLE) parents.
    2 MIKE KANE: I imagine going through that type
    3 of illness it's very taxing on everybody. How did
    4 Patsy handle it?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy was just unbelievable.
    6 She was going to beat it. I have never seen her as
    7 scared as she was. She thought she was going to
    8 beat it. There was an experimental treatment that
    9 she was on. Gill Gloster, who was a very close
    10 friend, was a doctor.
    11 MIKE KANE: Who was that?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Doctor Gill Gloster, he's a
    13 plastic surgeon who works in Atlanta.
    14 MIKE KANE: Gloster?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: His wife had died of cancer
    16 years before and he was there immediately for us.
    17 He said the mistake we made was we didn't go after
    18 it with both guns drawn. (INAUDIBLE) so we kind of
    19 treated it a little bit and that's not the way to
    20 do it. He recommended this National Cancer
    21 Institute program he was familiar with because his
    22 mother-in-law or his friend's mother-in-law, I
    23 guess it was, had just gone through it.
    24 He got on the phone, got us connected up with that
    25 program. But it was an experimental program. She
    0403
    1 was a guinea pig, basically. They were testing a
    2 new protocol that included some of the things that
    3 we, based on research, looked like it made sense
    4 and should be used, like Taxol, for example.
    5 Until we got her into that program, which wasn't
    6 automatic, because she was young and healthy and
    7 she didn't have any other illnesses. So they were
    8 just treating the cancer, that made her a good
    9 candidate, so she became enrolled in this program.
    10 And it was a scary process. Very scary for her.
    11 I distinctly remember you would go into, whatever
    12 it was, this 30-storey building which looked
    13 wonderful and the doctors and horrible bureaucracy
    14 and try to figure out where we go, who do we see.
    15 It took us three days to break the code and get in
    16 the system. But she was absolutely determined from
    17 that moment.
    18 MIKE KANE: I do know. We all kind of
    19 looked at our wives (INAUDIBLE). When and on what
    20 circumstances was her cancer discovered?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well she had. For about six
    22 months, a lot of shoulder pain. She had gone to
    23 some local doctors here in Boulder, and she went
    24 to her doctor. I mean it was very bad shoulder
    25 pain.
    0404
    1 MIKE KANE: Who was her doctor?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't remember. She
    3 obviously would know that. And they did some
    4 studies and then back like in June, her stomach
    5 started to swell.
    6 MIKE KANE: Do you remember what year was
    7 this?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: This was '93, about that. I
    9 think '93; summer of '93. And she couldn't get her
    10 skirts buckled and (INAUDIBLE). Which is kind of
    11 what we thought it was; too many treats. She just
    12 still had this horrible shoulder problem and she
    13 was taking lots of Tylenol and stuff like that.
    14 She was going to West Virginia and we were going
    15 to go up to Charlevoix. And when we went to
    16 Charlevoix, she went to the emergency room a
    17 couple of times a couple of evenings and they
    18 didn't know what was going on. They asked her if
    19 she was pregnant; they didn't have a clue.
    20 And we decided to go back to Boulder, and then we
    21 said let's go to Atlanta and it was Fourth of
    22 July. We went to Atlanta and she immediately went
    23 to the emergency room in Atlanta and in 30 minutes
    24 they knew what it was and had her checked into the
    25 hospital and operated on the next morning.
    0405
    1 MIKE KANE: And what kind of operation was
    2 it?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: They just split her open and
    4 cleaned it all out, as much as they could. That's
    5 kind of the first step. And it was much worse that
    6 they thought. And they tell you, well, it might be
    7 inoperable, which (INAUDIBLE) you're hopeful
    8 that's what it is, which it wasn't. Then they knew
    9 that knew that it was much worse than had hoped.
    10 So we tried to figure out what we could do. And
    11 Gill Gloster was very helpful to us. He was at the
    12 hospital with us. He made some calls to Anderson
    13 Clinic in Houston, I think it was. I mean you
    14 started looking, because you wanted the best
    15 treatment. And what is it? And that's difficult to
    16 figure out.
    17 The oncologist that was there in Atlanta wanted to
    18 treat her. (INAUDIBLE) and with Bill's help we got
    19 her in the program. (INAUDIBLE) year, she'd go
    20 there. And the treatment was basically heavy
    21 dosages, much heavier dosages than you would
    22 normally have given of three drugs.
    23 And she'd go there for a day or two or three, and
    24 then come back to Boulder. Usually then check in
    25 Boulder Hospital for a week, because her immune
    0406
    1 system fell to zero. And that was just kind of the
    2 routine that we went through for 12 months.
    3 MIKE KANE: So once a month she would go
    4 to (INAUDIBLE)?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was once a month,
    6 yeah.
    7 MIKE KANE: And you'd be there for three
    8 days.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: It was a couple overnight.
    10 MIKE KANE: And was this treatment IV
    11 administered?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: She had a port-o-cath that
    13 was permanently installed.
    14 MIKE KANE: And then she'd come back. Would
    15 she normally fly there commercially?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    17 MIKE KANE: Via BWIA I guess?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually, I guess either Duluth
    19 or National from here. I don't know if she flew
    20 BWIA or not. But all three of them were
    21 equidistant.
    22 MIKE KANE: This is Maryland, right?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.(INAUDIBLE).
    24 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE). And you came to
    25 do it once a month for 12 months?
    0407
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    2 MIKE KANE: How many times did her mom go
    3 with her?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know really, three
    5 or four or five times, somewhere in that range. I
    6 went with her many more times.
    7 MIKE KANE: How many times did you go with
    8 her?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I did sort of in the
    10 beginning every time. But there were times when
    11 she would go by herself. One time I remember I
    12 flew into Duluth and met her at the airport and
    13 flew back. I wasn't with her when she was there,
    14 but I escorted her home. It was a tough time for
    15 her; very tough.
    16 MIKE KANE: You said in the beginning you
    17 went each time?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had to get into the
    19 system and that wasn't easy. What finally made it
    20 easier for me was I said it was just like the
    21 Navy. It was not the doctors that run the place;
    22 it's the clerks. And so we started making friends
    23 with the clerks and then we got into the system.
    24 And they knew which forms we needed to get in.
    25 So it was a very imposing process. Then we'd go
    0408
    1 back and stay at a Holiday Inn and get ready for
    2 the next day.
    3 MIKE KANE: She wouldn't stay overnight
    4 in a hospital?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Not then. She was trying to
    6 get checked in.
    7 MIKE KANE: Oh, I see. Okay. And how long
    8 after her surgery did she get involved in this?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: In at least a month; I think
    10 30 days; as soon as she recovered from the
    11 surgery.
    12 MIKE KANE: And I guess they started her
    13 right away with her. So this protocol was just
    14 something relatively new (INAUDIBLE) and it was
    15 very, very aggressive?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Very aggressive, focus on
    17 ovarian cancer, which she had. The way that his
    18 protocol system works is the National Cancer
    19 Institute does all the testing. Once they conclude
    20 that it's better than what's out there, they'll
    21 release it to these member hospitals that
    22 administer cancer treatments.
    23 So they administer protocols that are generally
    24 under the experimental testing program. This
    25 protocol was only available at the National Cancer
    0409
    1 Institute, because it wasn't backed by any
    2 experimental program.
    3 She goes back now every -- it's being spread out
    4 the longer she goes, but she'll go there forever
    5 (INAUDBILE) research.
    6 MIKE KANE: So we're talking about, since
    7 June of '93, his wife was diagnosed, till? When
    8 was the last treatment?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a 12-month program,
    10 as I recall. But she went in for surgery, but they
    11 just (INAUDIBLE) work. And then --
    12 MIKE KANE: Went back in.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: -- went back in. And then
    14 they gave her one or two more treatments just for
    15 good measure. And that was it.
    16 MIKE KANE: And when was that concluded
    17 around?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: It started right around '93,
    19 it would have been in the late summer of '94.
    20 MIKE KANE: And that whole time when she
    21 was undergoing treatment, was it the same routine:
    22 come back to Boulder and check into the Boulder
    23 Hospital?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: No, she's come back and
    25 (INAUDIBLE) to come and check the blood and white
    0410
    1 blood count went to zero. So she had no immune
    2 system. And when her temperature up - we had to
    3 take her temperature every half hour or something
    4 like that when her temperature went up to a
    5 certain level, and then come right back down and
    6 we needed instructions, we'd go to the hospital.
    7 MIKE KANE: So this wasn't every time?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: It was almost every time.
    9 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Right. Almost every
    11 time she had to go to Boulder Hospital. And she
    12 might be there for a week before her immune system
    13 got back to where it could fight off infection.
    14 MIKE KANE: And during those times in
    15 between those treatments, how was it? I mean,
    16 physically, would she get out and about at all?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: A bit. Patsy is a one of
    18 the most positive people I know. And she made the
    19 best of it. She made the best of it with her
    20 children, she made the best of it with me, and
    21 yeah. For a week before she went back in, she
    22 would feeling pretty good. And she would try
    23 (INAUDIBLE) a little life. I mean she just made
    24 the best of it. She would (INAUDIBLE).
    25 MIKE KANE: Lost her hair, I guess, from
    0411
    1 the treatment?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, and around her body.
    3 But for that week or so when she was kind of back
    4 to being normal, life was just fairly normal.
    5 MIKE KANE: So in the late summer then of
    6 '94, her last treatment, was that part of the
    7 protocol, or did they stop the treatment because
    8 it seemed like --
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, the protocol was very
    10 defined: 12 treatments; surgery; and three more
    11 treatments. Because you had people who were on
    12 that same program that didn't have the success
    13 that she did.
    14 The most difficult thing for her, I think was that
    15 when they supposedly opened her up again with all
    16 sorts of biopsies and waiting for the results. If
    17 they found one cell, it didn't work. She was in
    18 trouble.
    19 MIKE KANE: So when that happened, she got
    20 the good news?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    22 MIKE KANE: And then a few more?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: A few more treatments for
    24 good measure and that was part of the protocol;
    25 part of the experiment.
    0412
    1 MIKE KANE: So probably by September of '94
    2 (INAUDIBLE)?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I think so, yeah.
    4 MIKE KANE: And then from that point on,
    5 there would have been anxiety, I suppose, how did
    6 her health go?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: It was good. She got her hair
    8 back slowly. But it was fine. She really had no
    9 health problems.
    10 MIKE KANE: And how often did she have to
    11 go for follow-ups?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well initially, it was every
    13 month. They did a full CAT-SCAN. It was a full
    14 check and then it became once every two months,
    15 and then once every three months, and then once
    16 every four months. I think it's every six or seven
    17 months now.
    18 MIKE KANE: And was that follow-up done
    19 back at NCI?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    21 MIKE KANE: Did she have any kind of
    22 follow-up here with a local doctor?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so, no. It
    24 was all back there.
    25 MIKE KANE: Prior to this time, did she
    0413
    1 go to the doctor often here?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: She'd go for her annual
    3 checks or whatever they do, women.
    4 MIKE KANE: How did all that change her?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy very much lived for
    6 the moment after that. She enjoyed everyday. She
    7 tried to maximize her time with the children.
    8 Things that she with them or gave to them.
    9 Sometimes I'd complain about something, something
    10 at work, and she's say, "Well, it's better than
    11 cancer." And I'd say, "Yeah, you're right."
    12 She said it just changed her whole -- she was a
    13 very positive person anyway. But I think she tried
    14 to cram as much in everyday as she could.
    15 MIKE KANE: During this whole time, it
    16 sounds like it overlapped with the remodeling of
    17 the house?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: It did. I don't remember that.
    19 If it did overlap with when we bought this cottage
    20 up in Michigan, like that summer. But I forget the
    21 date when we bought that. That summer we had just
    22 bought this place and in the winter we were going
    23 to have some remodeling done.
    24 MIKE KANE: This is out in Michigan?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. And we were meeting
    0414
    1 the architect, and Patsy just felt horrible. She
    2 had this swollen stomach, I remember that. so that
    3 whole year that overlapped with the cottage
    4 remodeling, because I had to do all that.
    5 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I was trying to remember. I
    7 may be off a year. It may have been a year back. I
    8 think we bought that place in the summer of '91 or
    9 '92. So that would put her cancer and diagnosis
    10 in summer of '92.
    11 MIKE KANE: Summer of '92, okay.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Perhaps. She would know exactly
    13 the day and hour that that's right.
    14 MIKE KANE: So what changed is she began to
    15 more live for the day. Carpe diem. What about
    16 physically?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think she was much more
    18 conscious of what she ate and tried to take some
    19 natural vitamins. I mean, once this treatment is
    20 over, they gave her some counseling on how she
    21 should go on living, and I think part of it was to
    22 not -- she couldn't take estrogen, for example,
    23 which she none anymore. But they didn't want her
    24 to. That was a no, no.
    25 But she basically went through menopause, I guess
    0415
    1 because her body was unable to produce estrogen.
    2 MIKE KANE: So she had a hysterectomy?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. She just became more
    4 conscious of what she ate and tried to be healthy
    5 in terms of that. other than that, she just really
    6 got back to her normal life.
    7 MIKE KANE: How did it change your
    8 relationship?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I think we became more
    10 close, not that we weren't anyway. I mean, you go
    11 through a hardship with someone and you see them
    12 more of a person inside than you had before.
    13 MIKE KANE: Like how do you mean?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's just the bonding.
    15 You bond in a way that you don't bond if you
    16 haven't gone through hardship. That's the best way
    17 I can tell you. If it affected our relationship at
    18 all, it was constructive.
    19 MIKE KANE: It made you more close in what
    20 sense?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I think you just accept each
    22 other more totally for who you are, and respect
    23 each other more fully for who they really are.
    24 MIKE KANE: Can you give me an example of
    25 before and after?
    0416
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I can't really. I mean
    2 love is an evolving thing. I think you grow more
    3 deeply in love as your relationship continues. And
    4 it changes from what was probably lust in the
    5 beginning to true spiritual love, and that just
    6 contributed to that development.
    7 MIKE KANE: Do you spend more time together?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I think we were very
    9 conscious of not letting external things rule our
    10 lives and going out to dinner with people that we
    11 didn't really want to do. Patsy has always
    12 volunteered for everything. And I used to kid her
    13 that she aught to put a sticker on the phone that
    14 says "Just say no." And she was just more
    15 conscious of her time. She wanted to spend all her
    16 time with the kids.
    17 So she did hardly any volunteer work after that
    18 other than at the school and generally with the
    19 kids. That part changed a lot.
    20 MIKE KANE: How did it change you?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was a very sobering
    22 experience. It caused you to think about
    23 (INAUDIBLE) in life. I think it made me less
    24 apprehensive about the future. I always worried
    25 about things: if we going to have enough money; is
    0417
    1 this going to happen. You just kind of back up and
    2 just enjoy today. So I think I became less of a
    3 worrier.
    4 MIKE KANE: I don't want to be indelicate,
    5 but how did it affect your sex life?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Of in terms of that year that
    7 wasn't an option. After, I think because we were
    8 more deeply in love because of this kind of
    9 experience together, it was probably more
    10 meaningful.
    11 MIKE KANE: Would you say it was normal?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, from that standpoint,
    13 certainly.
    14 MIKE KANE: And what does normal mean?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Once every week and a half
    16 or so I supposed, you know that kind of frequency.
    17 MIKE KANE: She didn't have any physical
    18 impairment or anything like that?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: It was hard for her, it hurt,
    20 frankly, to that part of the body. Because she got
    21 cut open and sewn together and cut open and sewn
    22 together again. I don't know that it was 100
    23 percent pleasurable for her for a while.
    24 MIKE KANE: And emotionally?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No issue there at all.
    0418
    1 MIKE KANE: How did it affect her spiritually?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: It has affected her a great
    3 deal. She became much more spiritual. She believed
    4 that she was cured by God, as much as (INAUDIBLE),
    5 if not more than (INAUDIBLE).
    6 MIKE KANE: Was there a specific incident?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Father Rol came over
    8 once and we had a prearranged healing service,
    9 which is part of the Episcopal ritual, and I think
    10 that was earlier on, and Patsy was very moved by
    11 that. And she went in for the CAT-SCAN. They had
    12 said they had to have the CAT-SCAN before they
    13 treated her again to see where things were at.
    14 And after that healing service, all the tumors
    15 were gone in the CAT-SCAN.
    16 MIKE KANE: And that was early on?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. And she believed in
    18 that as much as anything.
    19 MIKE KANE: This was an Episcopal service?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    21 MIKE KANE: I'm raised Roman Catholic, is
    22 that kind of the equivalent of the Sacrament for
    23 The Sick?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Of course we invited friends
    25 and we all prayed and there was an oil; there was
    0419
    1 prayer with people's love around her.
    2 MIKE KANE: She had friends that participated
    3 in this?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    5 MIKE KANE: Let's just back up a little
    6 bit. You said that you had looked at other places
    7 for treatment, in Houston or whatever?
    8 JHR? Well, I was trying to figure what the
    9 best answer was.
    10 MIKE KANE: What was your role in finding --
    11 (INAUDIBLE) about the cure?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I got all the document and
    13 gotten all sorts of reports on Taxol and looking
    14 into it. And I became a mini-expert on ovarian
    15 cancer.
    16 MIKE KANE: What were your sources of
    17 information for that?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I got a lot from
    19 Bill. I think there were some places I could call
    20 to get information. I've forgotten now. The
    21 Internet wasn't around. But that kind of
    22 information. A lot or research report, news
    23 articles, whatever I could get my hands on.
    24 I talked to people. It's very confusing if you
    25 really don't know where to go. My mother died of
    0420
    1 cancer and she was treated at the local hospital
    2 in Lansing, Michigan. In retrospect, was that the
    3 best answer? I don't know. But I didn't want to
    4 give up.
    5 The way I looked at Patsy's illness is: okay, we
    6 can do something about this. Beth, I couldn't do
    7 anything. I lost something I loved very much.
    8 There was nothing I could do. Patsy I could do
    9 something. And that's what I tried to do.
    10 In the process of making some of these calls, Bill
    11 got into this National Cancer Institute program
    12 and that (INAUDIBLE) seemed like the right cancer
    13 (INAUDIBLE). That really became the focus.
    14 MIKE KANE: Did she pretty much leave that
    15 aspect of it to you doing the research, or how
    16 much did she take part in that?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: She obviously wanted to know
    18 what was going on, and Gill was very good about
    19 explaining to us what was going on. The doctor
    20 would say this, here's what he meant in plain
    21 English. Yeah, she wasn't involved so much in the
    22 research, as I recall, but she was certainly
    23 involved in the decision.
    24 MIKE KANE: Is it Gill, is it Glou --
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Gloster.
    0421
    1 MIKE KANE: And he's a friend, a business
    2 associate?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Personal, long time personal
    4 friend.
    5 MIKE KANE: Had she had any ancillary effects
    6 of that?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: She lost a lot of feeling in
    8 her legs, her feet. All the nerves were killed.
    9 Chemotherapy is killing the body, as you well
    10 know. And it kills nerve endings. And she still, I
    11 don't think, has a lot of feeling in her feet.
    12 It's slowly coming back. That's probably the main
    13 thing. She still kind of has pain.
    14 MIKE KANE: Any other limitations on her
    15 now?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    17 MIKE KANE: No lasting effects outside of
    18 the neurological?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Perhaps. On her body, she has
    20 a big scar up and down her chest. I mean you
    21 couldn't pay her enough to put a bikini on. But
    22 other than that, no.
    23 MIKE KANE: Any other organs that's affecting
    24 her?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't think so.
    0422
    1 MIKE KANE: She goes for regular physicals
    2 now?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: She goes back to (INAUDIBLE)
    4 for a complete CAT-SCAN, physical, blood work.
    5 MIKE KANE: Is there any medication she can't
    6 take because of her kidneys or her liver?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I think her liver. She has to
    8 be careful of her liver because that was damaged
    9 in that process. The only thing I know is the
    10 estrogen and the liver.
    11 MIKE KANE: What did she do to substitute
    12 for this?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Nothing. No.
    14 MIKE KANE: Since then, is she on any
    15 medications for its aftereffects?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: For cancer?
    17 MIKE KANE: Yeah. Or since her cancer? Do
    18 you know if she has to take medications or
    19 anything like that?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well she's on Prozac now, and
    21 that's because of JonBenet, but no, I don't think
    22 so.
    23 MIKE KANE: Was she ever on any medication
    24 at all?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.
    0423
    1 MIKE KANE: Other than Prozac?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, during this last period?
    3 Well, yeah. She had taken Paxil for a while. They
    4 switched her to Prozac, which is similar.
    5 MIKE KANE: I think you said you were taking
    6 Paxil --
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    8 MIKE KANE: -- when you were, and you switched
    9 to(INAUDIBLE)?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I don't know, Patsy just
    11 said she felt better on it, and so I gave it a
    12 shot.
    13 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)? The stuff is
    14 expensive?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Maybe a little, I don't know.
    16 It seems to help, and it's the kind of drug that
    17 you can't just quit taking one day. You have to
    18 taper off of it. So it's just that if you're
    19 taking it and try to get off of it and see how you
    20 feels.
    21 MIKE KANE: Any other medications along
    22 that line that she's taking?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think --
    24 MIKE KANE: Not now?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, earlier on, we also
    0424
    1 took, it was like, I could never have been a
    2 doctor.
    3 MIKE KANE: Xanax?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Klonopin.
    5 MIKE KANE: Klonopin?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Klonopin. And that was kind
    7 of on an as needed basis for a while. It was kind
    8 of a quick, picker upper, I guess.
    9 MIKE KANE: Prior to this, had she ever
    10 been on any medication, I mean, would you know
    11 that?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah. She was very
    13 healthy?
    14 MIKE KANE: Has she lost consciousness or
    15 anything?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    17 MIKE KANE: I think you said yesterday
    18 that all those medications (INAUDIBLE) Melinda,
    19 your daughter, is a nurse. You said that at one
    20 point she came in and she cleaned out that kind of
    21 old stuff. When was that?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it might have been when
    23 she graduated or close to it, which would have
    24 been '95, '96.
    25 MIKE KANE: You know (INAUDIBLE)?
    0425
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean you go to the doctor
    2 and you get some antibiotics and you don't take
    3 the whole bottle because you start feeling better
    4 and you quit taking them. We had (INAUDIBLE) left
    5 around like that.
    6 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    8 MIKE KANE: Can you describe, if you could,
    9 your wife's range of moods?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: She's the most positive person
    11 I know. She never was down. She, of course, was
    12 sad when we lost Beth. It was very hard on her;
    13 they were close. She's a very, very positive
    14 person.
    15 MIKE KANE: And what year was that when you
    16 lost her?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: That was 1991. It was '91. It
    18 was January 8th, 1991.
    19 MIKE KANE: When was she the happiest?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: When she was with her family,
    21 I guess.
    22 MIKE KANE: What about today?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she lives for her children,
    24 for Burke, quite frankly. And she loves to be with
    25 him. We all enjoy being at the lake. There's been
    0426
    1 a lot of happy memories there. It's peaceful and
    2 we've got lots of good friends that take care of
    3 us and care for us. And she's happy up there.
    4 She has a very good friend in Atlanta now, that's
    5 a new friend. They have a lot in common together;
    6 they go out for coffee in the mornings. She enjoys
    7 that friendship a lot.
    8 MIKE KANE: So with friends?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    10 MIKE KANE: What's a downside? What's one
    11 of the things that make her --
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Lot's of down things these
    13 days.
    14 MIKE KANE: Yeah. But prior to her cancer?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. She didn't get down much,
    16 I suppose. I can't honestly tell you when I ever
    17 remember her being down. She's just not that kind
    18 of person.
    19 MIKE KANE: Did you guys ever get in a fight
    20 or disagreements?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Not --
    22 MIKE KANE: Differences of opinions?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Not really, no. The only time
    24 I got angry was, this was years ago, she had gone
    25 to New York with her mother and girlfriend and her
    0427
    1 mother. They'd gone to shows and they had a great
    2 time. And she was on her way home and I got a
    3 phone call from this Raul, wanted to know if Patsy
    4 got home all right.
    5 And so when she came in, I said, "Who is Raul?" So
    6 there was this long story about how they had come
    7 out of the show and one of the mothers said,
    8 "Okay, here's a cab, get in." And they jump in and
    9 there's this nice cab, it was a Rolls Royce, and
    10 there was this guy (INAUDIBLE) in the back of my
    11 car and it was Raul.
    12 It was a perfectly innocent story, but I was
    13 suspicious, I guess. And that's the only time I
    14 ever really got angry, I guess, with her.
    15 MIKE KANE: And how did you resolve it?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I kicked the kitchen
    17 door, and that was it.
    18 MIKE KANE: When she got home, did you have
    19 this discussion about that?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah. I had to know who
    21 Raul was.
    22 MIKE KANE: Did you believe her?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, she
    24 was with her mother, for heaven sakes.
    25 MIKE KANE: Couldn't her mother have given
    0428
    1 her an alibi?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well she supported her telling me.
    3 MIKE KANE: How did the weather affect
    4 her? Going from the south to the -- the one thing
    5 I remember when I left to Boulder, is that I
    6 didn't have to look forward to snow in May.
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she liked the south.
    8 She liked the weather in the south. She hated cold
    9 weather. She didn't like to ski. But she'd go, but
    10 there was no ifs, ands or doubts about how she
    11 felt about the snow and cold weather.
    12 So if given a choice, ten times out of ten she'd
    13 choose the beach rather than go skiing. But the
    14 thing with Colorado winter is it's actually quite
    15 mild and lots of sunshine and (INAUDIBLE).
    16 When we first came out to Colorado, we were like,
    17 well we're going to do this for two years and then
    18 (INAUDIBLE) and we're going to move back home to
    19 Atlanta. And then the longer we were here we were
    20 thinking, hmm, I don't want to go back Atlanta
    21 (INAUDIBLE). And that was not really in our
    22 thinking when we were worrying about middle school
    23 and high school. I mean there are some great
    24 schools in Atlanta.
    25 So we hadn't gotten to that stage where we had to
    0429
    1 worry about it. So she liked Colorado a lot.
    2 MIKE KANE: She was as happy here as she
    3 was --
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: She missed some of the amenities
    5 of Atlanta, you know, the big shopping centers and
    6 the country club. And I think it was to the point
    7 where she couldn't find where to buy lipstick in
    8 Boulder because she used makeup and stuff like
    9 that. But she liked it.
    10 But there's things about Atlanta I miss too.
    11 MIKE KANE: Were there any pet peeves that
    12 she had about to you? You mentioned several times
    13 that you watch the weather channel. That sounds to
    14 me like watching paint dry. What did she think of
    15 it?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: She didn't care. I watched it
    17 because we flew and I wanted to see what was going
    18 on with the weather systems and I couldn't do that
    19 unless I watched it for seven days. I didn't watch
    20 24 hours a day, but I did watch it for 20 minutes
    21 to kind of get a feel for what was going on.
    22 MIKE KANE: If you were to cite one pet
    23 peeve, and everybody has them, what would it be?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Channel surfacing probably
    25 with the TV. If I can think of one thing she used
    0430
    1 to kid me about. If I had the controller in my
    2 hand, that's what I do. Never stop moving the
    3 channel to watch it. I can watch two or three
    4 channels at once.
    5 MIKE KANE: And then on the flip side,
    6 what would your pet peeve be?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: The only thing I've ever
    8 kidded about was, she takes huge bites of salad.
    9 When she eats salad.
    10 MIKE KANE: And that's as bad as it got?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: That was really about as bad
    12 as it got. And she talked about it and joked
    13 about it. (INAUDIBILE).
    14 MIKE KANE: Did she have a local physician
    15 here in Boulder County?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah. It was a gynecologist.
    17 In fact, she was quite upset with her that,
    18 apparently one of her routine tests, part of her
    19 cancer diagnosis came back abnormal and it stayed
    20 on this woman's desk for several months. Had she
    21 been diagnosed six months earlier, she could have
    22 gotten a huge head start on it.
    23 MIKE KANE: Did you ever talked about any
    24 legal action?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    0431
    1 MIKE KANE: Did you have a regular family
    2 physician?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I used to go to Peter Ewing,
    4 Dr. Peter Ewing in Boulder, for pain and stuff. I
    5 go there, but Patsy (INAUDIBLE).
    6 MIKE KANE: Do you know a doctor named
    7 Farue or Darue?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    9 MIKE KANE: Any other (INAUDIBLE)?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Just Ewing. I'd go to Ewing.
    11 MIKE KANE: Where did you get it filled?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually in Jone's Drug or
    13 (INAUDIBLE) or there's a Rexall or something down
    14 on Pearl Street on 16th or something like that.
    15 LOU SMIT: We're getting close to that time
    16 of the day and I just have a quick question. I'm
    17 kind of the nuts and bolts kind a guy. What it is
    18 that you had mentioned before that you and Patsy
    19 got together occasionally. Did Patsy use John
    20 Andrew's room?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: She used it for folding laundry
    22 and that kind of stuff.
    23 LOU SMIT: Did you ever perhaps have a light
    24 that's on in John Andrews room?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: This may be a dangerous answer,
    0432
    1 but I don't think so.
    2 LOU SMIT: okay. That's the only thing I got.
    3 And we should probably take a break. I think they
    4 probably have to change the tape.
    5 (BREAK TAKEN)
    6 (END OF TAPE 2)
    7
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    0433

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  3. #3

    Default

    0433
    1 _______________________________________________
    2
    3 IN THE MATTER OF:
    4
    5
    6 INTERVIEW WITH JOHN RAMSEY
    7
    8 _______________________________________________
    9
    10
    11 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW
    12
    13 VOLUME 3
    14 PAGES 433 - 531
    15
    16
    17
    18
    19 JUNE 24, 1998
    20
    21
    22
    23
    24
    25
    0434
    1 FOR JOHN RAMSEY'S INTERVIEW,
    2 THE FOLLOWING WERE PRESENT:
    3
    4
    5 LOU SMIT
    6 MICHAEL KANE
    7 BRYAN MORGAN
    8 DAVID WILLIAMS
    9
    10 LOU SMIT: Just note that we are
    11 back in session. It's 2:15, again on Wednesday,
    12 the 24th of June.
    13 MIKE KANE: 3:15.
    14 LOU SMIT: I am sorry, 3:15. On
    15 Wednesday the 24th.
    16 MIKE KANE: Okay. Let me jump
    17 around a little bit here. The train room, you
    18 know what I mean when I say the train room, is
    19 that what you guys called it? There was a train
    20 set down there?
    21 What was that? I know you said
    22 that there was a lot of storage down there and
    23 from looking at it on the diagram, it was --
    24 actually looks like there was a little bit of a
    25 divider in there so it was two different rooms.
    0435
    1 Where was, you said there were a lot of things
    2 stored. Where were they stored?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had, this
    4 used to be an elevator shaft and that was like
    5 the electronics for the elevator, so that's --
    6 we were kind of' stuck with that when we bought
    7 the house, so we had stuff stored in those
    8 closets.
    9 There was stuff, I think we had
    10 some shelving installed, here, here, stuff
    11 stacked on shelving. There was a little
    12 bookcase here. What's that is. Usually had
    13 junk in it.
    14 MIKE KANE: Did the kids play
    15 there?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: They played, Burke at
    17 course played with the train off and on.
    18 Sometimes the would play back here. Not a lot,
    19 but once in awhile.
    20 MIKE KANE: Was it primarily used
    21 for storage and--
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    23 MIKE KANE: And did they play with
    24 the trains at all?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, Burke did a
    0436
    1 lot.
    2 MIKE KANE: There was, I don't
    3 believe we have a picture of it, but there was a
    4 poster hanging up. Do you remember if there was
    5 a poster?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. Some movie
    7 posters, right?
    8 MIKE KANE: Yeah.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Hung up. Those were
    10 from our old house, the space where we had the
    11 theater, we had those hanging on the walls.
    12 MIKE KANE: Okay. Do you know,
    13 have you ever been a hunter, anything like that?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I have hunted. I
    15 have hunted for quail (NOTE: Video off). I
    16 went deer hunting once with my father-in-law.
    17 Then quail hunting maybe three or four times.
    18 Five times, maybe.
    19 (NOTE: Video resumed.)
    20 MIKE KANE: Here or Georgia?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Quail hunting in
    22 south Georgia. Maybe 3 times. Quail hunting in
    23 north Michigan once, deer hunting in West
    24 Virginia once.
    25 MIKE KANE: Do you own a shotgun?
    0437
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I have a shotgun that
    2 my father-in-law gave me as a gift. It's like a
    3 collectors' item. It's never been fired. It's
    4 up in Michigan.
    5 MIKE KANE: Do you have any other
    6 rifles?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: We have pistols now
    8 as a result of this; didn't before.
    9 MIKE KANE: Do you have any long
    10 guns, rifle, shotguns?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Just the one 12
    12 gauge.
    13 MIKE KANE: And that's up in
    14 Michigan?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    16 MIKE KANE: So didn't have any in
    17 the house at this time?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think. The
    19 shotgun was in here, for a while. But it's been
    20 up in Michigan for several years.
    21 MIKE KANE: Okay. And have you got
    22 hand guns?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: We have just in the
    24 past year.
    25 MIKE KANE: And is that four or one
    0438
    1 or what?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: We have three I
    3 think. Three, yeah. One in Charlevoix, two in
    4 Atlanta.
    5 MIKE KANE: And where are they?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: 38 caliber specials I
    7 guess, one pearl handle 38.
    8 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE).
    9 MIKE KANE: And did you, I don't
    10 know what the law is in Georgia, did you guys go
    11 through training or anything?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: You don't. You got
    13 the little printout what the law was, and you
    14 generally keep them in little box one of these
    15 locked safes. Like that.
    16 MIKE KANE: Have you taken any
    17 training?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I did in the
    19 military, but I haven't been. Just going to the
    20 range a couple of times.
    21 MIKE KANE: Did Patsy?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: She never showed up.
    23 MIKE KANE: On the -- I want to
    24 talk about Patsy's birthday, there was a big
    25 party down at the Browns, that's what I
    0439
    1 understand?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    3 MIKE KANE: And that was in
    4 November?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it was late
    6 November, early December.
    7 MIKE KANE: Who organized that?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Priscilla White.
    9 I funded it, she planned it basically.
    10 MIKE KANE: Did you take any role
    11 in planning at all other than writing the check?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Not much, other
    13 than writing the check. Actually my idea was a
    14 lot less elaborate than Priscilla's. I wanted
    15 to go up to Boulderado and -- (INAUDIBLE). So I
    16 actually my idea which got shot down.
    17 MIKE KANE: What besides
    18 Boulderado?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that was the
    20 main one. My idea was less than her, the scale
    21 of the 800 -- the concept. Mine was less than
    22 hers. But she (INAUDIBLE) with it.
    23 MIKE KANE: I mean, you say you got
    24 shot down. Obviously, you must have agreed at
    25 some point that--
    0440
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Priscilla is a
    2 pretty forceful person. I mean just she was,
    3 no, I can't do Boulderado. You know, it's got
    4 to be -- out in Denver.
    5 MIKE KANE: And how many people
    6 were there?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: There was gosh,
    8 50 maybe.
    9 MIKE KANE: And what were the
    10 arrangements I mean how did you all--
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well they, she -- we
    12 hired two Greyhound buses, as I recall, and
    13 everybody met at a parking lot, where the bus
    14 was and then we all got in the bus and both the
    15 buses came over and pulled up in front of our
    16 house and we got Patsy, I had arranged for Patsy
    17 to go out for dinner just her and I, as I think
    18 it was a belated anniversary dinner is how we
    19 billed it so she was dressed to go out.
    20 MIKE KANE: So it was a surprise?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I believe
    22 it, yes, it was a surprise, the reason I believe
    23 it was a surprise to her was that she was, that
    24 she said herself this old wool dress was ready
    25 to go up to a restaurant in the mountains, she
    0441
    1 said she would have in no way worn that dress,
    2 if she knew what was up. So yeah, I believe it
    3 was a surprise.
    4 MIKE KANE: How did she react?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, she was, I
    6 knew now, she was just excited. The kids came
    7 on the bus.
    8 MIKE KANE: The kids stayed at home
    9 for the party?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah.
    11 MIKE KANE: Have you ever forgotten
    12 her birthday?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, I am
    14 sure I have. Her birthday is the 29th of
    15 December, which is, you know, too close to
    16 Christmas, so I would have forgotten, I had not
    17 gotten her presents.
    18 MIKE KANE: How did she feel about
    19 it Mine is December 20. How did she feel about
    20 it?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: She always, she
    22 thought it was a rotten time to have a birthday
    23 because it got overlooked. But.
    24 MIKE KANE: Did you ever give her a
    25 combination Christmas slash birthday present?
    0442
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably, but I
    2 can't remember specifically. But that's an easy
    3 way to do it.
    4 MIKE KANE: And how did she react
    5 to that?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, she would
    7 joke about being shortchanged, you know.
    8 Couldn't do that, had to do the birthday
    9 present, be fair. That was always in a joking
    10 way.
    11 MIKE KANE: Never anything serious
    12 though?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, no.
    14 MIKE KANE: All right. Do you ever
    15 remember her being angry with anybody outside of
    16 the family.
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Not really.
    18 Patsy is not that kind of person. She frankly
    19 brought home a lot of stray dogs. She didn't
    20 meet a stranger she didn't like.
    21 MIKE KANE: How did you feel about
    22 that?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she was much
    24 more outgoing than I am. So that was just her
    25 personality.
    0443
    1 MIKE KANE: Did you ever, did it
    2 ever annoy you, you know, show up at home and
    3 have some body you never saw before--
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I mean I
    5 thought it was nice, you know, we -- that was
    6 just her personality. She had a lot of friends.
    7 MIKE KANE: Okay. Was there ever
    8 an occasion when the kids' affection for you
    9 might have caused friction, maybe?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, no. Not at
    11 all.
    12 MIKE KANE: I want to back into
    13 what happened that day. I think it was John
    14 Andrew when he was interviewed he said that --
    15 he was talking about the beauty pageants and the
    16 possibility of this being a work of a, you know,
    17 a jealous parent or whatever. And of course
    18 there have been instances where I think there
    19 was one that was really well publicized about a
    20 cheerleading, problem of cheerleader mom or
    21 something like that. What do you think about
    22 that?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it's
    24 plausible. Neither Patsy nor JonBenet or I took
    25 those very seriously. It was just a fun thing
    0444
    1 for her generally to do. She looked at it as
    2 it's a way to build her confidence, and
    3 presence, you know, in front of people and those
    4 kind of things. But it was, it was just fun.
    5 There wasn't any -- whether she won or lost
    6 wasn't really a big deal. It was just fun being
    7 there. There were parents that were there that
    8 were just intent on winning.
    9 MIKE KANE: So what do you think
    10 about that in terms of a theory of who--
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean I
    12 thought it was very odd and very unhealthy that
    13 they felt that way. That to us wasn't why we
    14 were doing that, you know. But in terms of who,
    15 you know, we hardly knew those people. Usually
    16 it was a very small group. The girls and their
    17 parents, grandparents. Some siblings maybe,
    18 that was about it.
    19 MIKE KANE: Were you ever aware
    20 that there were people that really took this
    21 pageant stuff seriously, can you give me some
    22 examples?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, just when they
    24 would announce the winners. Everybody won
    25 something, nobody went home without a big trophy
    0445
    1 and there were always ones that were favorite
    2 trophies, and these parents were just like their
    3 team just won the Superbowl. I mean they just
    4 within by one point, and it was just really
    5 tense emotion that they had won. I always
    6 thought that was not very healthy.
    7 MIKE KANE: Did you witness any of
    8 that the times you were there?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    10 MIKE KANE: Yeah? Okay. What
    11 happened, what kind of atmosphere, what kind of
    12 atmosphere would that create?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: It was really
    14 nothing other than just, you know, they would
    15 say yes, and they would hug each other and you
    16 know. That was about it.
    17 MIKE KANE: Did you ever in looking
    18 back on it, do you think that any -- anybody was
    19 so wrapped up in this that I think you said it's
    20 plausible. Is it possible?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.
    22 Because, well, I don't know. I mean I just
    23 don't think that way, but I mean there were
    24 girls that had been to 40, 50 pageants, and just
    25 every weekend. I mean it was just, that was --
    0446
    1 JonBenet went once in awhile. Just kind of when
    2 they felt like it and they had time.
    3 So she wasn't -- and she didn't win
    4 that often. She would win the talent thing
    5 usually, she was very good, but she very rarely
    6 won -- she was young, I mean, know, relative to
    7 some of the girls that were there we just didn't
    8 take it that serious, and just kind of a fun
    9 thing for her to do.
    10 And I think had they been one of
    11 these every one you know competing, it might
    12 have, you know, potentially could have been some
    13 hostilities there, because there were some
    14 pretty intense emotions going on on the part of
    15 the parents.
    16 MIKE KANE: Do you know how they
    17 got started in that?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: According to
    19 Patsy, she was, Patsy was Ms. West Virginia in
    20 1977 and she was in the Miss America pageant and
    21 periodically she would go back to West Virginia
    22 to judge, it was a judge for the Ms. West
    23 Virginia pageant and she took, they had a, it
    24 must have been 20, 20th anniversary or something
    25 like that, I don't know. Some anniversary, they
    0447
    1 invited her back to -- to be in the program I
    2 think and she took JonBenet's and her mom went,
    3 and she said JonBenet really enjoyed it, seeing
    4 mom up on stage, and she found, apparently
    5 JonBenet found a little advertisement in the
    6 paper for one of these little pageants, local
    7 pageants.
    8 MIKE KANE: Later she found it?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe so,
    10 JonBenet did. And asked, you know, how -- it
    11 was something she wished she could do, or how do
    12 we do this. I think that's how that got
    13 started.
    14 MIKE KANE: Was that a local
    15 Boulder paper?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know, it
    17 might have been Denver. It had to be a local
    18 paper, but I am not sure which it was.
    19 MIKE KANE: You say you think
    20 that's it happened, why to you can --
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Because I heard Patsy
    22 tell that story to somebody, recently had asked.
    23 MIKE KANE: Okay?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: And I remembered
    25 them going to Ms. West Virginia pageant, but I
    0448
    1 didn't really remember the sequence of how it
    2 got started.
    3 MIKE KANE: Do you know when this
    4 was?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: It might have been
    6 1995, that they went back to West Virginia,
    7 perhaps.
    8 MIKE KANE: And do you know when
    9 that first pageant that she was in was?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I really --
    11 no, I don't remember. You know, probably within
    12 six months of that time period, I suppose.
    13 MIKE KANE: Did you ever have any
    14 discussions with Patsy about before she got
    15 involved in these pageants, with just what are
    16 they, what do they do, what's the upside,
    17 downside?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not really.
    19 I mean I had a great deal of respect for the
    20 Miss America Pageant, I went to one of those
    21 once with her. I was just astounded at the
    22 talent level of the girls over there, not just
    23 the ten we see on television, but everyone is
    24 incredibly talented. They weren't particularly
    25 attractive, you know, they were there because
    0449
    1 they had a very special talent. And they were
    2 all extremely talented.
    3 I sat through one of the
    4 preliminary things where they all do their
    5 talent, and I was just astounded. So I was very
    6 impressed with that program, and the caliber and
    7 the person that got to that level, extremely
    8 talented.
    9 MIKE KANE: Did you ever see
    10 Patsy's performance?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.
    12 MIKE KANE: Did you see that
    13 outside of the--
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    15 MIKE KANE: The, there was, and I
    16 don't know where I saw this reference to, but
    17 there was some -- something that I saw that
    18 Patsy had a concern about one of the pageants,
    19 the Gingerbread Pageant, something about she
    20 didn't like the way it was run. Do you have any
    21 information about that?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not really.
    23 MIKE KANE: Did you ever discuss
    24 with her problems with any of these pageants?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I mean I knew
    0450
    1 she was doing it because, you know, she was
    2 trying to live for the moment, and she was
    3 trying to be as much with her children as she
    4 could. All she could, we talked about that, but
    5 I could see that was what was going on. And a
    6 couple of times I remember saying geez you guys
    7 aren't doing another pageant, are you, and I
    8 think once they decided not to do it, but that's
    9 about the extent of it.
    10 MIKE KANE: Why did they decide not
    11 to do it?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I think they had --
    13 I think -- I don't remember exactly, but I think
    14 they just decided it was too much to be, you
    15 know, I think it was out of town or something,
    16 and they wanted to stay home with the rest of
    17 us.
    18 MIKE KANE: Did they did go out of
    19 town for some of these, from what I understand?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    21 MIKE KANE: Down in Georgia there
    22 was--
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: There was one in
    24 Rome, I think, Georgia. There were a couple of
    25 them in Georgia, one in Atlanta, one in Rome,
    0451
    1 maybe two.
    2 MIKE KANE: And the trips down
    3 there were specifically for that, obviously
    4 family--
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, one I think
    6 was, they were down there and they noticed this
    7 was one going on, they just went to it. I think
    8 that was the one in Rome. It was just kind of
    9 an after-thought.
    10 MIKE KANE: And how do you remember
    11 that, that that was -- I mean did you talk, did
    12 Patsy tell you while they were down there --
    13 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: It was kind of what
    15 I remember, yeah. But they just kind of
    16 noticed, they were getting ready to go to a
    17 pageant and so they had this one in Rome, they
    18 said great.
    19 MIKE KANE: This was why they were
    20 down there or here?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, we were there
    22 for a family visit or something, I forget what
    23 it was. It was around Thanksgiving time.
    24 MIKE KANE: Did she have one of her
    25 pageant dresses with her?
    0452
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: No, probably not.
    2 They always threw stuff together at the last
    3 minute. They had stuff around sometimes. Might
    4 have had something sent up, I don't know.
    5 MIKE KANE: Do you know how many
    6 that she was in?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I heard nine,
    8 somebody said nine. I heard that on the news.
    9 I don't know if that's true or not.
    10 MIKE KANE: What did you think as a
    11 father seeing your six-year old in makeup?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I can't say that
    13 I liked it. I think -- she had fun with it. It
    14 wasn't done -- every little girl, certainly all
    15 my little girls liked to put on makeup and dress
    16 up, and play dress-up and so this was just kind
    17 of an another level of playing dress-up. But I
    18 always kind of did a check on was -- you know,
    19 did she really want to do that today.
    20 And I never said you know, hope you
    21 win or just -- just have fun you know, hope you
    22 have fun. Sing good, you know, doesn't matter
    23 if you're the prettiest. You're the talent,
    24 that's really what counts. It became kind of a
    25 thing between us, she always said I am there for
    0453
    1 my talent, dad.
    2 But no, I think she drug Patsy to a
    3 couple of them that Patsy didn't even want to go
    4 to.
    5 MIKE KANE: Which one was that?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. I
    7 just, I remember that she was more insistent on
    8 going than Patsy.
    9 MIKE KANE: Were those instate or
    10 out of state?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I think they
    12 were instate, probably. I don't recall.
    13 MIKE KANE: The -- did you -- know
    14 that there was some videos taken, I mean at your
    15 house had some videos that sent over her
    16 pageants or--
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, these pageants
    18 always took a video of the girls, which in
    19 retrospect was a huge mistake, to allow that.
    20 MIKE KANE: In what regard?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, because it
    22 made national news, you know, they had no ethics
    23 in terms of, I mean this was a small little room
    24 with parents and girls and they you know,
    25 wasn't -- that's all it was. And yet these
    0454
    1 videos that were made which we shouldn't have
    2 allowed were released to the world. And so it
    3 looked like we were putting our daughter on
    4 display for the world and in fact, we weren't at
    5 all.
    6 MIKE KANE: Some of the criticism
    7 that you had gotten from media and press,
    8 public, is that some of these productions with
    9 the kids, some of their actions were
    10 provocative. What did you feel about that?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: It's in the eyes of
    12 a beholder. If you look at a little girl in a
    13 dress and think something sexual, you got a
    14 problem. That's how I look at it.
    15 MIKE KANE: Did it ever concern you
    16 that --
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: No, because the
    18 audience were parents, you know, it was moms and
    19 dads, and grammas.
    20 LOU SMIT: Usually how big of an
    21 audience was it?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, there might be
    23 50 people.
    24 LOU SMIT: So it's not like
    25 hundreds?
    0455
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no, not the ones
    2 I was at. Just kids running around, you know,
    3 siblings and babies and --
    4 LOU SMIT: Any room for perverts
    5 in there?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I could have gotten
    7 in there. I could have walked in. It wasn't
    8 hard to walk in and sit down and act like a
    9 relative, I suppose. I didn't see anybody that
    10 didn't look like they were part of the group, in
    11 terms of having a child or have children there,
    12 it wasn't a stranger sitting over in the corner
    13 in a raincoat or something like that, but it
    14 would have been possible, certainly, to do that,
    15 if you were so inclined.
    16 MIKE KANE: Were you aware of Patsy
    17 lightening JonBenet's hair? Make it lighter
    18 than its natural color?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    20 MIKE KANE: There was a -- I don't
    21 think it was pag -- it was part of a pageant,
    22 there was a, you know, come-as-a-famous-person
    23 part of I think it was a local pageant, might
    24 have been down in Lakewood, bow tie (phonetic)
    25 or something like that, I am not sure. That I
    0456
    1 read about that she, JonBenet came as Marilyn
    2 Monroe, do you remember that?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.
    4 MIKE KANE: I think you said
    5 earlier, when Lou was talking to you about it,
    6 that Patsy's mom and her sisters had been to
    7 some of these. Do you think they came out
    8 specifically for that?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, probably. In
    10 some cases I suspect they did. I don't remember
    11 specifically, but that wouldn't have been out of
    12 the question.
    13 MIKE KANE: I know that Pam had
    14 been in the pageants. She followed Patsy, Polly
    15 didn't. Why was that?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Why?
    17 MIKE KANE: Yes, what's your
    18 knowledge?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think Polly didn't
    20 have talent. Pam was a wonderful singer. She
    21 has a beautiful voice. Polly played the flute
    22 in a high school band. It's a talent
    23 competition. And I don't know that she was
    24 inclined, I don't know that she ever even tried.
    25 MIKE KANE: Did you ever talk to
    0457
    1 her about that?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    3 MIKE KANE: You might want to --
    4 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know, that's
    6 a good question, but I don't know that there was
    7 one. I don't remember. They might have gotten
    8 tired of it too, for that matter. I don't
    9 remember.
    10 MIKE KANE: On the 26th, that day,
    11 some people who had seen, who were there or they
    12 were at your house or at the Fernies afterwards,
    13 have commented that -- that the two of you, you
    14 and Patsy didn't spend a lot of time together
    15 under this crisis atmosphere. What's your
    16 reaction to that?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall we
    18 didn't spend a lot of time together. We were
    19 both totally devastated, crushed, ruined.
    20 Mentally vegetables. I mean, you know, you
    21 just, you don't really care to even be alive
    22 after something like that happens. And --
    23 MIKE KANE: Do you recall that you
    24 were together a lot during that time?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, we were
    0458
    1 together. We were in the same house, we -- I
    2 mean, there were ton of people around us all the
    3 time. Patsy was sedated. I don't remember
    4 where she slept the first night. The first
    5 night I just sat in the living room until I
    6 could lay down on the floor, and you know, I
    7 just --
    8 MIKE KANE: You didn't sleep
    9 together the first night?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I slept on the
    11 floor. I don't know that I even slept. Only
    12 because I -- I didn't -- I mean, I mean, when
    13 Beth died, I sat up all night, probably had 6
    14 Scotches. I don't know that I slept a minute.
    15 Basically I felt the same way that night. You
    16 don't go back to a normal routine of putting on
    17 your pajamas and brushing your teeth and
    18 climbing into bed and kissing each other good
    19 night. You have been crushed.
    20 MIKE KANE: I just wondered why you
    21 wouldn't gravitate to each other in that
    22 circumstance. You have such a common interest
    23 at that point.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know, I
    25 mean, I don't recall that we didn't. And
    0459
    1 that's -- I wouldn't have made an observation of
    2 our behavior, put it that way. You know, she
    3 was, I know when we were -- before we found
    4 JonBenet, Patsy was kind of stayed in the
    5 solarium area, and I would go in and check on
    6 her periodically and just assure her that we
    7 were going to get JonBenet back, and but my
    8 focus was on getting her back, you know.
    9 For me to sit there and you know,
    10 what are we going to do, it wasn't going to get
    11 done.
    12 MIKE KANE: What was going to get
    13 done?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I tried to apply
    15 every ounce of energy and mental power I had to
    16 figure out what we had to do to get her back.
    17 And --
    18 MIKE KANE: You mean beyond coming
    19 up with the ransom money and waiting for the
    20 phone call?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean there was not
    22 much you could do unfortunately, that was the
    23 terrible part about it. But you sure
    24 couldn't -- you couldn't loose control at that
    25 point in my mind, because I thought we could --
    0460
    1 we could -- we had the opportunity to make this
    2 come out right.
    3 MIKE KANE: The -- probably have
    4 heard this, I am sure, that Janet McReynolds who
    5 had written a play?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: After the fact,
    7 yeah.
    8 MIKE KANE: And it was based on a
    9 book called "The Basement". What have you heard
    10 about that?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, just that it
    12 was -- that she had written this play, that it
    13 was about a child being murdered or you know,
    14 tortured, I don't know, a very awful play.
    15 MIKE KANE: Awful in an artistic
    16 sense or a dramatic sense?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Dramatic. That it
    18 was very sick, and very similar to what happened
    19 to JonBenet. There is -- beyond that, I didn't
    20 really hear much, but it just was kind of
    21 shocking to us that we had allowed somebody like
    22 that to come into our home.
    23 MIKE KANE: Did you -- when you say
    24 somebody like that, what do you mean?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's that
    0461
    1 perverted and sick and, you know, I don't think
    2 that way. I don't want to be around anybody
    3 that does.
    4 MIKE KANE: But as an artistic
    5 thing do you--
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't buy that,
    7 no.
    8 MIKE KANE: Did you think that
    9 Janet McReynolds had something going through her
    10 head that made her write that, outside of just a
    11 --
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know,
    13 but I mean the fact that anybody could
    14 apparently write something like that is kind of
    15 nauseating.
    16 MIKE KANE: You hadn't heard of
    17 that before this?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    19 MIKE KANE: Patsy knew about that
    20 before this?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    22 MIKE KANE: Have you read either
    23 one, The Basement or Hey, Rube?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't know there
    25 was a second one.
    0462
    1 MIKE KANE: No, I mean Hey, Rube is
    2 a play based on the book.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: They did a play on
    4 that book?
    5 MIKE KANE: No Janet McReynolds
    6 wrote a play and the play was based on a book
    7 written by somebody else years before.
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I see. Okay,
    9 no, I didn't know that.
    10 MIKE KANE: Okay. All right.
    11 Yesterday, you said something about on the -- a
    12 couple of things that on the 20th or on the 6th
    13 of December she was in that little parade. What
    14 is that parade? Is that a parade for kids or a
    15 parade of kids?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: A parade of kids.
    17 Kids are in the parade.
    18 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: High school band
    20 and it was full of kids.
    21 MIKE KANE: You said her name was
    22 on a car?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I think so, I am not
    24 positive of that, but it's quite probable.
    25 MIKE KANE: Why do you think it's
    0463
    1 probable?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Because Patsy
    3 tended to do that.
    4 MIKE KANE: Do what, do you know
    5 what --
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: JonBenet Ramsey,
    7 Miss Little Colorado or whatever.
    8 MIKE KANE: Okay, so it was in
    9 connection with being miss --
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    11 MIKE KANE: Did you have like a
    12 sign or placard or something like that?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: She had an I think a
    14 little magnetic or this a little sign that kind
    15 of adhered to the side of the car.
    16 MIKE KANE: Okay, she had that made
    17 up?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: She was in a
    19 couple of little parades in Charlevoix where
    20 they, you know, little small town, brought your
    21 own Corvettes and kids would be on the back and
    22 JonBenet was in a couple of those.
    23 MIKE KANE: You guys were out of
    24 town that weekend. I think you said that Mike
    25 Archuleta's that wife is the one that took --
    0464
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: She drove the
    2 car, she was there as United Way. I think
    3 Patsy's mom was there. She took care of the
    4 kids while we were away, so I don't know who
    5 picked up, how the logistics were handled but --
    6 MIKE KANE: Another thing that I
    7 wanted to a follow a little bit on, you said
    8 that looking back on it the article on Access
    9 Graphics was a mistake but at the time you had
    10 some apprehension about it. What was your
    11 apprehension?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: This was a gut
    13 feeling that that wasn't a good idea.
    14 MIKE KANE: In what sense?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't want that
    16 notoriety or that visibility.
    17 MIKE KANE: Which, which --
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that we were a
    19 billion dollar company.
    20 MIKE KANE: Why didn't you want
    21 that as a company?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I -- I didn't want
    23 that attention basically and I just had this gut
    24 panic in my stomach that said to me don't do it.
    25 MIKE KANE: What's wrong with
    0465
    1 attention when you're in a business?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: It doesn't -- if it
    3 doesn't buy anything, why do it. These aren't
    4 customers locally. We had maybe one or two
    5 customers locally. Publicity is useful when
    6 it's to your audience. I was -- I am not
    7 particularly boastful, I don't like that kind of
    8 person, I don't want to be that kind of person,
    9 and I felt it was being I guess probably
    10 boastful.
    11 MIKE KANE: Was it for you
    12 personally you didn't like the attention or for
    13 your family?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, I was starting
    15 to think geez, you know, we need to -- because
    16 we had -- we had had, you know, since Jeff
    17 Meric and we had a couple of other employees who
    18 were let go. Not that I even knew, but that
    19 didn't go happily and I just was starting to
    20 think about I better, you know, I need to start
    21 thinking about visibility.
    22 MIKE KANE: How do you square that
    23 with Little Miss Colorado pageants?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: That was part of
    25 what I guess was starting to think about. I
    0466
    1 mean in retrospect it was totally foolish, but
    2 it was, I mean these -- see, if you don't think
    3 like an evil person, you assume everybody else
    4 is kind of normal like you, and these little
    5 pageants were in a little room with the parents
    6 and these little parades in Charlevoix were you
    7 know, small town parades, everybody knew each
    8 other, and we just kind of a fun thing for kids
    9 to do. It was innocent.
    10 We had falsely, I think, assumed
    11 that Boulder was a small innocent town. We
    12 used to go back to Atlanta and our friends would
    13 talk about their security systems and you know
    14 if you shoot the guy, be sure to get him in the
    15 house, you know. And God, we don't talk about
    16 this stuff in Boulder. It was just, you know,
    17 being out of that environment and coming back to
    18 it, it just was astounding to us. We thought we
    19 were in safe little Boulder, nothing ever
    20 happened in Boulder.
    21 MIKE KANE: Prior to this what was
    22 changing your mind about that?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Nothing in
    24 particular. But I just was starting to -- we
    25 were starting to be more visible. And every
    0467
    1 time we let somebody go, we would get sued, I
    2 mean it was just you were becoming a bigger
    3 target for whoever wanted to take a shot at you.
    4 MIKE KANE: Was there ever a time
    5 other than that billion dollar article that you
    6 recall being in the paper?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, there was an
    8 article a couple years before that that talked
    9 about Access Graphics rapidly growing, we were
    10 always in, you know, the industry publications.
    11 We would get circulated in Boulder, but Boulder
    12 Camera did articles on us from time to time. I
    13 think the Rocky Mountain News did one once on
    14 the company.
    15 MIKE KANE: And there was one that
    16 I think I have seen that you were pictured on
    17 the wall?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That was
    19 shortly after Beth died, I guess it would have
    20 been 1992, '1 or somewhere in there. Because I
    21 thought I looked like hell frankly in that
    22 picture, and I probably felt like it.
    23 MIKE KANE: That was a lot of
    24 visibility?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. But we were
    0468
    1 -- at that point --
    2 MIKE KANE: Why did you agree to
    3 have your picture in the paper?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Then?
    5 MIKE KANE: Yes.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Back then publicity
    7 was good publicity. We were trying to make a
    8 name for ourselves, and it was just a different
    9 mindset. One of the reasons you do that, one of
    10 the reasons I decided that well, hey, we will do
    11 it is it makes your employees proud, you know,
    12 they want to be proud of the company. Helped us
    13 attract potential new employees and so forth.
    14 You know, there is a benefit to
    15 that kind of exposure in the local community,
    16 and even customers. Like I say, I just had this
    17 gut twang that said that's not a good idea and I
    18 kind of wonder whether there is something I
    19 don't understand was trying to tell me
    20 something.
    21 MIKE KANE: Do you have any follow
    22 up, Lou?
    23 LOU SMIT: No. I don't believe
    24 so.
    25 I did have one follow-up question
    0469
    1 and that was in regards to the Brown Palace.
    2 There was mention in one of the reports about a
    3 comedian, some comedian that somebody had hired
    4 for that.
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Priscilla hired. It
    6 was a -- he dressed up as Miss America. With a
    7 beard, with a --
    8 LOU SMIT: Do you know if he was
    9 from Boulder here?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know where
    11 he was from.
    12 LOU SMIT: I was just wanting to
    13 know if anybody knew his name?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know that we
    15 did or would. I don't. I think Priscilla
    16 arranged for it.
    17 LOU SMIT: If you happen to hear
    18 it, we can make a quick check on him.
    19 MIKE KANE: I don't know if I have
    20 asked this. Not in this context, but do you
    21 think or have you thought in the last year and a
    22 half that someone was trying to frame you for
    23 this?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. The thought
    25 crossed my mind, but I think -- no, I don't
    0470
    1 think that's the -- I didn't give him credit
    2 for being that clever.
    3 MIKE KANE: Why not?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Because I think
    5 they have left too many clues. They left a
    6 ransom note. They left this newspaper with, you
    7 know, this bizarre thing you showed me today.
    8 MIKE KANE: But some of these clues
    9 now the public has taken and made judgments.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't --
    11 MIKE KANE: No, but I mean in the
    12 context of someone trying to frame you?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it's too
    14 much of a stretch. I mean what -- if I were
    15 going to do that, I wouldn't have handwritten
    16 the note. I would have typed it out or you
    17 know, I mean, if they are really that clever to
    18 have done something like this, to not only hurt
    19 JonBenet, hurt us but to frame us as the
    20 murderers, I think if you give them credit for
    21 being that clever, they would have done some
    22 other things that would have supported that kind
    23 of theory more.
    24 MIKE KANE: What kind of things
    25 come to mind?
    0471
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Like I think I
    2 wouldn't have handwritten the note. I would
    3 have done it on a word processor or on a --
    4 maybe I wouldn't have left a note at all.
    5 MIKE KANE: Do you feel like if
    6 there were no note, the finger would point more
    7 to you or less to you? When I say you I mean
    8 your family.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean that
    10 was Patsy's reaction, she said thank God they
    11 left a note. I said what do you mean by that,
    12 he said well, they left some evidence, so he was
    13 going to follow it that way.
    14 So yeah, I mean I think if somebody
    15 was really trying to frame us, it could have
    16 been a lot more obvious and a lot less -- a lot
    17 more likely to do that. Seems to be I mean I
    18 think it was just, I mean, for example what if
    19 instead of Patsy's handwriting coming back
    20 almost exclusive, what it if had come back
    21 exclusive. We didn't write the note, Patsy
    22 didn't write the note, boom, it's over, who
    23 wrote the note?
    24 But the fact that, okay, maybe
    25 there is a few similarities in her writing,
    0472
    1 that's about it. She wouldn't be absolutely
    2 excluded, that becomes -- I mean if somebody is
    3 trying to frame you, that's just too -- that's
    4 too lucky.
    5 MIKE KANE: What's your
    6 understanding about the fact that there are
    7 similarities? I mean what's the --
    8 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Our experts who I
    10 believe are national experts said look, we give
    11 it a 4.5 on a scale of 5. If we had more
    12 samples prior to the murder, we could maybe get
    13 it to a five where there was absolutely no
    14 possible way that she wrote this note. 4.5 is
    15 as professional, as good as we can do it.
    16 MIKE KANE: How did they rule you
    17 out?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.
    19 MIKE KANE: Did they have a lot of
    20 pre-December writings?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember
    22 frankly. But we gave whatever we needed to,
    23 both to the police and our people, and I think
    24 mine was fairly quick.
    25 MIKE KANE: Did you have any
    0473
    1 understanding about what's the probability that
    2 there would be any similarity? There obviously
    3 were none with you?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Of course we
    5 assumed there would be none, because we didn't
    6 write it so I was -- I mean we were -- in our
    7 minds there was no doubt what the outcome would
    8 be.
    9 MIKE KANE: Were you surprised when
    10 there were similarities?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, the way it was
    12 explained to us was that there are certain
    13 things that we all learned when we learned how
    14 to write, that are kind of common and that's the
    15 kind of things that were there apparently in
    16 Patsy's samples that they just couldn't
    17 absolutely say totally exclude it. But they
    18 were as close as they can be as professionals,
    19 at least ours, to say that --
    20 MIKE KANE: What do you think about
    21 the -- there is a range you probably heard some
    22 other may be about the 4 to 5 level?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: The only one I heard
    24 was CBI was recently quoted as saying they were
    25 closer to exclusion than they were inclusion and
    0474
    1 it was a three on a scale of ten, which to me is
    2 --
    3 MIKE KANE: Where did you hear
    4 that?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: It was in the Denver
    6 paper. Chuck Green, which of course always has
    7 been reliable and accurate information. So it
    8 may not be accurate as all, I don't know. But
    9 -- what we heard, I guess, officially was it was
    10 inconclusive. Couldn't be excluded, couldn't be
    11 included.
    12 MIKE KANE: The, SBTC?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). I have
    14 done, I have run numbers and letters, I have
    15 tried to figure code. I have looked in the
    16 bible extensively for that reference. Talked to
    17 people who know a lot more about the bible than
    18 I do. The only thing I have heard that makes
    19 sense are that it's star-based technical
    20 command, was a term on I think Star Trek, one of
    21 those, Star Wars, Star Trek, I think, which kind
    22 of fits the movie theme.
    23 You know, this freak had a passion
    24 for movies. Or Sanibel and, whatever her name
    25 was, Claus, or the T could have possibly been a
    0475
    1 J, Sanibel or Janet Claus. But the T would have
    2 had to have really been a J, that's the only
    3 thing.
    4 Then there was a guy early on that
    5 was going to believe that had a tee shirt that
    6 was Santa Barbara Tennis Club and I checked, and
    7 there was a Santa Barbara Tennis Club and but
    8 other than that I don't have a clue what means.
    9 LOU SMIT: You said you looked at
    10 a biblical theme. In what sense?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, just because we
    12 had heard there were psalms circled, possible
    13 118 being 118th psalm and there was some, I
    14 think some interesting things there. So I tried
    15 to just take it another step, does SBTC mean
    16 anything in the bible. I couldn't.
    17 MIKE KANE: Did you do some
    18 research yourself in that regard?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    20 MIKE KANE: What kinds of things
    21 were you looking in the bible for?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Any time I pick
    23 up the bible I look in the index. I read
    24 passages, I read thinking does that stand for
    25 anything. You know, looked in the dictionary.
    0476
    1 I looked it up on the Internet, there is a Web
    2 site called SBTC, it's a little bit bizarre, as
    3 far as I could tell.
    4 MIKE KANE: Was that the one that's
    5 the Small Business Technical Center that's on
    6 the Internet -- had you ever --
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I saw that, I think
    8 I saw that.
    9 MIKE KANE: It's like a small
    10 business trade organization?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I --
    12 MIKE KANE: Access was never
    13 involved in at all?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: No. So we would
    15 have -- that's been puzzling to me from day
    16 one.
    17 MIKE KANE: What other things have
    18 you done yourself to investigate this? I mean
    19 outside of hiring people to do it, besides --
    20 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Tried to put my
    22 brain to it, just to try to figure out what
    23 these clues mean, this person's life force. I
    24 have given every possible -- you think back,
    25 who you had a conference with, going way back,
    0477
    1 and I tried to give those names to our people,
    2 and instructed them to share that with you. He
    3 have -- I was trying to -- unfortunately I had
    4 an affair 20 something years ago and I was
    5 trying to figure out where this person was and I
    6 looked in the phone book and I found the
    7 addresses of, there are several with her name
    8 and I wanted it to seem logical, she used to
    9 live in the area, went to an apartment complex
    10 and sat there for a while, to see if I could see
    11 her come and go.
    12 MIKE KANE: When was that?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know,
    14 six months ago, something like that. So you
    15 know, it's -- you know, when Patsy and I have
    16 talked about, you know, of course we have the
    17 media hounding us to talk to them all the time
    18 and I think we both kind of concluded that if
    19 this thing ever dies down, we are going to
    20 sister it up again. We want to keep the
    21 pressure on. One thing we think we can do is
    22 keep the pressure on the killer.
    23 LOU SMIT: Could I interject
    24 you're talking about Gloria Williams?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: (Nodding).
    0478
    1 LOU SMIT: Have you ever thought,
    2 you know you had claimed in that first letter
    3 you sent to me or in the letter that was sent to
    4 me, that she had kind of a fatal attraction type
    5 personality. How did you attribute that? I
    6 mean --
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, just -- we
    8 hired her as a secretary in a small office, and
    9 you know, I was vulnerable, but not -- not
    10 crossing the line. We were at a Christmas party
    11 that this office building had, she said gee, I
    12 left something up in my office, do you have a
    13 key? And so I went up, unlocked the door and as
    14 soon as the door unlocked she turned around and
    15 kissed me. And then I just kind of got sucked
    16 in. But it was a, just a very strong physical
    17 attraction.
    18 LOU SMIT: How long did that last
    19 for?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, two years,
    21 maybe. It was one of the things I got into and
    22 I couldn't get out. She was extremely
    23 aggressive. Like you know, I tried to, you know
    24 --
    25 LOU SMIT: What do you mean
    0479
    1 aggressive?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I wouldn't answer
    3 the phone so she would call 27 times.
    4 LOU SMIT: At home?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: At home. Our
    6 marriage probably wasn't strong or that wouldn't
    7 have happened at all, but it certainly ended it.
    8 And it was probably the biggest regret I have in
    9 my life, but she was a very volatile person.
    10 LOU SMIT: Why do you think she
    11 hasn't surfaced? I mean your name has been all
    12 over the place.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. And
    14 that really surprises me. I am surprised she
    15 hasn't come forward and said, that son of a
    16 :(:(:(:(:(, you know, I knew him when.
    17 LOU SMIT: Was it a bad breakup
    18 that you had?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, and I got rid
    20 of her finally. You know I just couldn't, I
    21 finally got her to stop pursuing me.
    22 LOU SMIT: But did she make any
    23 threats?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No. Not --
    25 that was 20 years ago, or longer than that
    0480
    1 maybe.
    2 LOU SMIT: And you have never
    3 heard from her since?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    5 LOU SMIT: Do you know if she had
    6 any children?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: She had a son, I
    8 think I read his name in the note but I forget
    9 it now. I think I was reading the note,
    10 whatever the name was, Scott or Mark -- Mark
    11 Williams, Mark Williams. It was probably 20
    12 years ago, he was probably nine years old or so.
    13 LOU SMIT: There has been another
    14 gal in Tucson?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I have no clue who
    16 that woman is. No clue.
    17 LOU SMIT: I know you said in the
    18 last statement that's bullshit?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Total. She
    20 called, she called my office several times. We
    21 tried with our investigators to get her to ask
    22 for money. She never would do. When she would
    23 call and say, the newspapers want me to talk,
    24 what does John want me to do? My secretary
    25 would come in and say who the world is this
    0481
    1 woman, I didn't know her. I had no clue. I
    2 haven't been in Tucson for 20 years, so I turned
    3 it over to these guys and they called her back
    4 and she said you know, I need help, you know,
    5 tell me what to do, I don't know what to do and
    6 so they tried to get her to ask for money, what
    7 do you need. I don't know what you guys did.
    8 She never would cross that line to extortion.
    9 And we just blew her off. I never talked to her
    10 and next thing I know she is --
    11 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.) Celebrity on
    12 television.
    13 LOU SMIT: How would she have
    14 gotten Pam's telephone number?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Pam?
    16 LOU SMIT: Patsy's sister?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess I didn't
    18 know she talked to Pam. But it was, we were
    19 writing in the paper at that time. Only thing I
    20 can figure. There was our phone numbers is the
    21 phone number.
    22 LOU SMIT: You're saying that's
    23 definitely not true, there is nothing?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: There is nothing
    25 that happened. I have no clue who that woman
    0482
    1 is. I wanted these guys to go out and say look,
    2 give the poor guy some credit for having some
    3 taste. You know, she was --
    4 LOU SMIT: You have seen a picture
    5 of her?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, on television.
    7 They wouldn't do that. I don't know who she is.
    8 LOU SMIT: Just one other question
    9 along those lines. In the report, there is some
    10 kind of an indication, this is somebody talking
    11 about a blond :(:(:(:(:( down the street that may
    12 have interest in you.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy mentioned
    14 that last night, that somebody said she called
    15 somebody a blond :(:(:(:(:(. And that even shocked
    16 me. That doesn't ring a bell at all.
    17 LOU SMIT: Do you know anybody in
    18 the neighborhood that may have had an eye on
    19 you?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    21 LOU SMIT: Do you know anybody at
    22 all?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I know some of
    24 the people in the neighborhood, but --
    25 LOU SMIT: Do you know a Debbie
    0483
    1 Shefley (phonetic)?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    3 LOU SMIT: Do you know an Otto
    4 Burdenier (phonetic)? Otto?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Otto rings a
    6 bell, but I don't know why. I think that was a
    7 name that came up later. I don't know him, but
    8 the name kind of rings a bell.
    9 LOU SMIT: They may live in the
    10 block to the north of you.
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    12 LOU SMIT: Don't know anybody in
    13 that area?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I mean, we
    15 knew, that is a girl that was friends of the
    16 Fernies who lived there, down the street with
    17 her boyfriend a block or two north of us. Who I
    18 met through the Fernies, you know, over for
    19 dinner.
    20 LOU SMIT: Could you tell me a
    21 little about that person?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: She is an artist,
    23 she is quite attractive, she is cute, probably
    24 35 or 40. I can't think of her name. But she
    25 was an either an art student of John Perry's or
    0484
    1 moving through, he used to be an art teacher I
    2 think or something, they were friends of the
    3 Fernies, she is actually quite a good artist.
    4 Some of the paintings, but she lived with a
    5 boyfriend and had a -- she was divorced, she
    6 had I think one or two boys that were, you know,
    7 kind of Burke's age, plus or minus a little.
    8 Not a good relationship with her
    9 ex-husband. There was some animosity as to
    10 where the boys lived and where they went to
    11 school, those kind of things.
    12 LOU SMIT: How do you know
    13 so much about it her?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: She was friends of
    15 Barbara Fernie's and Barbara was a good friend
    16 of Patsy's and so they always --
    17 LOU SMIT: But you talk to
    18 her too then I assume?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I probably been with
    20 her, that was -- we had dinner once in Dicio's
    21 (phonetic), with a big group and she was there.
    22 That's the first time I met her.
    23 She was with the Fernies at a
    24 birthday party I think for either John or
    25 Barbara, and I would see her once in awhile.
    0485
    1 Either at the Fernies or --
    2 LOU SMIT: Could that be who Patsy
    3 was referring to?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't have a clue.
    5 That's not the kind of words that Patsy would
    6 use. What Patsy thought, and there -- there is
    7 a woman that was lived down that way, and I
    8 can't think of her name. Who apparently ran,
    9 who used to jog and she ran by, knew this story,
    10 she ran by Priscilla's house once and they had a
    11 bunch of junk piled in their living room, had
    12 been there forever and she asked Priscilla, "are
    13 you ever going to clean up your house?"
    14 And of course that wasn't the right
    15 thing to say to Priscilla, and Priscilla used to
    16 call her the blond :(:(:(:(:(.
    17 MIKE KANE: That could be who they
    18 are referring to?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, and Patsy
    20 didn't have any axe to grind with her. She was
    21 kind of a neighbor friend, a neighborhood
    22 friend. I can't think of her name but, she
    23 lived on the next block to the north.
    24 LOU SMIT: That answers that. Go
    25 ahead.
    0486
    1 MIKE KANE: Just to follow up on
    2 what Lou was saying about Gloria Williams. You
    3 said you finally put a stop to it, or called and
    4 said -- how did you do it?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was
    6 actually Patsy indirectly or unknowingly helped
    7 that. I met Patsy, she was one of the first
    8 persons I met that I really cared about, and
    9 wanted to -- I always kind of thought she was
    10 kind of a gift from my another to help me get my
    11 life straightened out, who had died ten years
    12 before.
    13 But Patsy and I were down, we were
    14 downstairs in the apartment, she was staying
    15 cooking hamburgers, and I went upstairs to get
    16 some more wine, and when I got up there, this
    17 Gloria had called and said she was coming over
    18 and I didn't want it to mess up my -- what was
    19 just starting to be a relationship with Patsy.
    20 And so I left the apartment, I just left. I
    21 didn't want her to find me anywhere.
    22 And she came over and was
    23 apparently knocking on my door and Patsy by this
    24 time was thinking, where in the world did I go?
    25 She said she came upstairs, she tells the story
    0487
    1 later she came upstairs with these two wine
    2 glasses and here is this woman standing and
    3 knocking on my door and she said well, where is
    4 he? And this Gloria says he is in with her.
    5 Patsy said her, her who? She said Patsy. Oh,
    6 well, I was just bringing these wine glasses
    7 back.
    8 She was smooth as a cucumber, and
    9 later that evening, I came back, kind of told
    10 her what had happened, I said I had this
    11 girlfriend that was crazy and I just didn't want
    12 it to -- and so I said I was going to stay
    13 there that night and sleep on the couch, because
    14 I didn't want to be in my apartment and we were
    15 just talking and knock, knock, knock on the
    16 door, and -- actually I think I was going to
    17 leave. There was a knock on the door, and I was
    18 literally behind the door, Patsy opened the
    19 door, it's Gloria, and she said I was waiting
    20 for John, I want to come in, use your phone and
    21 Patsy, "oh, our phone is out of order, we just
    22 moved in."
    23 And here I was standing behind the
    24 door, I was -- then she just was -- and from
    25 that moment -- first of all, from that moment
    0488
    1 on, Gloria left me alone and I also realized how
    2 much, what a significant person Patsy was.
    3 Because here she was a 23-year-old, just
    4 standing there. So that was kind of the
    5 breaking point.
    6 LOU SMIT: Have you been able to
    7 locate her at all?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know,
    9 but I am very surprised that she hasn't
    10 surfaced.
    11 LOU SMIT: That is kind of an
    12 unusual thing.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    14 MIKE KANE: I was talking to you
    15 about things that you have done yourself. You
    16 mentioned the Internet. Anything else on the
    17 Internet that you have done?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Not me
    19 personally. I know we had a Web site, actually
    20 looked at it the other day, it was out-of-date,
    21 hadn't kept up, someone was doing that, it was
    22 part of a press interference, but no.
    23 MIKE KANE: Why hasn't it been kept
    24 up?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we just
    0489
    1 couldn't afford to keep paying for that person
    2 to sit there and answer the phone for the press
    3 frankly. So we discontinued that.
    4 MIKE KANE: The Internet site
    5 itself, is that still up?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was the last I
    7 looked, which is maybe a month ago or.
    8 MIKE KANE: Outside of running that
    9 site, I mean is there anything that you have
    10 done like research-wise or on the Internet?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, just I have done
    12 searches on the SBTC. Primarily. That's all I
    13 used it for, to try to figure that out. That
    14 didn't hold up anything.
    15 MIKE KANE: Outside of that, have
    16 you made -- I mean are there other things that
    17 -- maybe I should ask it this way. Is there --
    18 are there things that you feel that you could do
    19 but you haven't done yourself, personally?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah; no, not really
    21 other than sit and look at evidence, things that
    22 you have questions on, that I can perhaps shed
    23 light on. No. That's kind of the remaining
    24 thing I think we can do that we haven't been
    25 able to do.
    0490
    1 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    2 LOU SMIT: I got a couple of
    3 things. How about Jamison?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: She called me. I
    5 mean I have heard of her, I heard she is a
    6 supporter and so forth, but I have never looked
    7 at her Web site. And she called me once in
    8 Atlanta, and we -- this was maybe a month or two
    9 ago, and I told her, I said I have always kind
    10 of wanted to write you and thank you for being a
    11 supporter, but I am sorry.
    12 She said well, I would like to talk
    13 to you, and I said well, hope you want her to
    14 come to our house, because we didn't want her to
    15 be there, it might be hard to (INAUDIBLE) we met
    16 her for a cup of coffee and just little things
    17 familiar with. (INAUDIBLE). That was I don't
    18 know, a month or two ago.
    19 LOU SMIT: Her name is Sue
    20 Bennett, your name is Bennett?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    22 LOU SMIT: Is there any
    23 relationship?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so, I
    25 had a cousin named, I was thinking what was her
    0491
    1 name, I haven't seen her in years and years and
    2 years, but her name was, at least her maiden
    3 name was, they call her Susie Bennett or, it was
    4 close enough to think I wonder if it could be my
    5 cousin, but it wasn't.
    6 LOU SMIT: So when you met
    7 with her there was no relationship
    8 established like cousins or --
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I just
    10 mentioned that my middle name was Bennett,
    11 JonBenet was named after me.
    12 LOU SMIT: And you never had
    13 contact with her before personally or on
    14 the Internet or anything like that or can
    15 you --
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no, I
    17 never did. She had written us a letter
    18 once, I remember a letter because it said
    19 Jamison, a/k/a Sue Bennett. That was
    20 maybe a year ago.
    21 LOU SMIT: So you have put
    22 nothing on the Internet through her name
    23 or anything like that?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. She said I
    25 could if I wanted to, but that was one of the
    0492
    1 things she offered, if you want to get --
    2 LOU SMIT: Just recently?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, a month or so
    4 ago, yeah. In fact, she called the other day
    5 and along with Steven or whatever his name,
    6 Jeffrey Shapiro, so we changed our phone number.
    7 I mean she is a nice person, and --
    8 BRYAN MORGAN: I missed that, she
    9 called with Jeffrey?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they had both
    11 called. Somehow -- I was more concerned about
    12 the fact that Jeffrey Shapiro had our phone
    13 number. But we changed the number anyway so.
    14 MIKE KANE: Let me follow up on
    15 this. How did you know about her?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess I started to
    17 hear about her from friends that, Susan Stine, I
    18 don't remember, Susan checked some of that
    19 stuff, the Internet stuff. I think it just kind
    20 of started coming out that she was is a
    21 supporter. And we just started hearing about
    22 her.
    23 MIKE KANE: You said you didn't
    24 have any direct contact. How about indirect,
    25 through others?
    0493
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    2 MIKE KANE: No?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: No. We had gotten a
    4 couple of messages from her through my brother's
    5 sister-in-law who apparently had communicated
    6 with her a few times.
    7 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    9 MIKE KANE: When you met her for
    10 coffee, where was that?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: It was at a coffee
    12 shop in the neighborhood, Moonbeam Coffee Shop.
    13 MIKE KANE: She came down?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum. She was
    15 in Atlanta with her family to go to Six Flags.
    16 MIKE KANE: Is she from that area?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: She is from North
    18 Carolina, I think.
    19 MIKE KANE: What did she want to
    20 talk about?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I really don't know.
    22 I mean she seemed to be more concerned about
    23 what the tabloids were saying about us. And she
    24 said I know what they are going to attack you
    25 on, you know. You know, we don't care, I mean
    0494
    1 the tabloids are -- makes us angry, but it's
    2 not of concern to us, in terms of I mean if it
    3 had been The New York Times, I guess, if they
    4 had come out with some big story, it might be
    5 more concerning, but I think she was just --
    6 just felt genuine concern for us, and our
    7 polite.
    8 MIKE KANE: Do you know why?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. No.
    10 MIKE KANE: Did she seem --
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Mostly.
    12 VOICE: (INAUDIBLE).
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, anybody that
    14 could sit on a computer for a hundred hours a
    15 day or whatever she does, no way I am going to
    16 -- sorry.
    17 VOICE: Remember you still do those
    18 things.
    19 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean she obviously
    21 she is obsessed with it, but she mostly seemed
    22 pretty normal. She had a child and she home
    23 schooled, she mentioned that.
    24 MIKE KANE: Have you ever given her
    25 anything of value, besides the --
    0495
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Money-wise, no.
    2 MIKE KANE: Or anything besides
    3 money that's of value?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I mean, I wanted
    5 to write her and just thank her for being one of
    6 our few supporters, and just kind of an
    7 opportunity to -- I didn't want to blow her
    8 off, you know, I just didn't feel that was
    9 appropriate.
    10 MIKE KANE: Why didn't you write
    11 her?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't know where
    13 to write her for starters. I had a letter from
    14 her, there were hundreds and hundreds that we
    15 kept, you know. Just something I was always
    16 going to do tomorrow.
    17 LOU SMIT: I can't think of
    18 more --
    19 MIKE KANE: Okay. I don't know if
    20 this is any particular -- I tried to keep this
    21 in order, but it's now totally out of order, but
    22 I will just jump as I go through a page here.
    23 On that morning I think before last April, when
    24 you gave a statement about this, you were
    25 describing, I mean there were some disagreement
    0496
    1 or confusion about if you checked the doors that
    2 night and you said that you hadn't checked the
    3 doors that night.
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, you know, one
    5 of the things that perplexed me is how did this
    6 person get in. When Linda Arndt was there, I
    7 used to say I don't know how they got in. The
    8 doors are locked. Well, these guys said did you
    9 check all the doors, I said yeah. Well, did you
    10 check all the doors? Well no, I didn't, there
    11 is doors on the second floor, you know, I guess
    12 I didn't check all the doors.
    13 So you know, if -- I don't remember
    14 specifically what you're talking about, but I am
    15 sure I told Linda Arndt the doors are all
    16 locked. I don't know how they got in. But the
    17 fact of the matter is I didn't check the door in
    18 JonBenet's room, I didn't check the door in the
    19 TV room, I didn't check the door on the third
    20 floor bathroom, I don't remember checking the
    21 pantry door. So I mean, I checked the doors
    22 that we normally used, and would have left open,
    23 you know, accidentally, perhaps, but.
    24 MIKE KANE: Okay. And then you
    25 also went down the basement, at some point you
    0497
    1 saw, you know --
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    3 MIKE KANE: -- that window?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    5 MIKE KANE: Are there other windows
    6 in the basement besides that?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Those are the
    8 only -- there is one set of windows, the rest
    9 of them are blocked up, through remodeling
    10 or -- I am pretty sure. There is a little
    11 window, a little bathroom right here, I don't
    12 remember if that's open or -- it might have
    13 been a window, I forget now.
    14 MIKE KANE: The night before you
    15 got home, I just had a couple of questions but
    16 you covered it pretty much. When you were
    17 saying you carried her upstairs. When you got
    18 to her bedroom, and she was still asleep at that
    19 point, did you put her in her bed?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I laid her on the
    21 bed. I didn't -- I don't remember the cover,
    22 if the bed was made or not, but I laid her on
    23 the bed. Because I knew Patsy would follow up
    24 to put her nightgown on and get her ready for
    25 bed.
    0498
    1 MIKE KANE: The blanket you don't
    2 recall whether that --
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't.
    4 MIKE KANE: Was that usually on the
    5 bed?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: It should have been.
    7 I mean it was wintertime.
    8 MIKE KANE: (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know.
    10 When I saw that blanket that morning, that you
    11 know, I found her, I didn't -- I didn't know
    12 where that blanket came from. Patsy later said
    13 probably came from the bed. But I don't know
    14 that she's actually seen the blanket. I don't
    15 know whether she wants to or not, but that was
    16 her speculation.
    17 MIKE KANE: And so you put her in
    18 the bed and you said Patsy would normally get
    19 her ready. I mean if you were out and came
    20 home?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: That was pretty
    22 standard.
    23 MIKE KANE: Patsy dress her?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    25 MIKE KANE: If she was asleep?
    0499
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Or at lest take
    2 off, sometimes she would leave her in her tee
    3 shirt, underwear, but --
    4 MIKE KANE: So you left the room, I
    5 take it, you said you went to play with --
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I went to try to get
    7 Burke to bed. He was downstairs in the living
    8 room working on a toy.
    9 MIKE KANE: So you went back in
    10 that area, let me see, up here where her bedroom
    11 was again?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I went back, I came
    13 down here, Burke was here on the floor. By the
    14 Christmas tree.
    15 MIKE KANE: Do you remember what it
    16 was he was playing with?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Some kind of
    18 little square car elevator, you know, I don't
    19 know, it was a -- something only a child would
    20 appreciate, but it was like a car, garage repair
    21 thing, elevators run up and down and stuff,
    22 little micro cars.
    23 MIKE KANE: When you took him up to
    24 bed, I imagine you went up that front steps?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    0500
    1 MIKE KANE: To the bedroom?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    3 MIKE KANE: I see we are back in
    4 that back part of the house?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    6 MIKE KANE: All right. And from
    7 that point, you -- did you go right to your
    8 bedroom?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: I think so.
    10 MIKE KANE: Up the next set of
    11 steps?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: As I recall, yes.
    13 Just I remember going up to bed.
    14 MIKE KANE: And you said you may
    15 have read for a while?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I did, you
    17 know, a few pages, but I fell asleep pretty
    18 quick.
    19 MIKE KANE: Patsy was already in
    20 bed?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    22 MIKE KANE: In the morning, after
    23 Patsy came running up the steps, told you what
    24 she had found, where did you look for her? You
    25 said that you, I think you used the word --
    0501
    1 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I ran back
    3 up and looked in her room, and I think accepted
    4 the fact that she was gone. And you know, I
    5 don't remember, I mean I said I remember I
    6 looked in the refrigerator. Just -- I just
    7 tried to look in Places like -- (INAUDIBLE). I
    8 wasn't looking for her hiding. That wasn't in
    9 the equation, but, I -- I, I think I just
    10 accepted that she was gone from the house pretty
    11 quick. As did I think the police. Of course we
    12 used to operate on that assumption that I was
    13 worried about her being cold, you know, it was
    14 wintertime. All these thoughts go through your
    15 head.
    16 LOU SMIT: Could I interject.
    17 This is a good time to do that. You said that
    18 you went through all the house, you were looking
    19 at different things. Did you go into John
    20 Andrew's room?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: We did when we
    22 sat down with Linda Arndt, she wanted to, you
    23 know, kind of get out of the crowd, she would
    24 sit down and tell me what to do when the call
    25 came, so we went into John Andrew's room.
    0502
    1 LOU SMIT: Did you look in
    2 closets and things in that room?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I remember.
    4 LOU SMIT: I am going to show
    5 you a picture of John Andrew's room and
    6 it's picture 29. That's this picture
    7 right here and your head might be in the
    8 way there. Picture 29. And what it is,
    9 you tell me which room that is, and see if
    10 you can make any observations of that room
    11 and then I will touch on something a
    12 little bit later. This was taken during
    13 the kidnapping phase.
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: It's John
    15 Andrew's room. There are some clothes piled on
    16 the chair, which isn't unusual. Maybe it's a
    17 backpack. Some red thing with a black and white
    18 looks like it might be one of JonBenet's
    19 outfits. Clothes stacked.
    20 LOU SMIT: Do you remember
    21 looking under the bed?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
    23 LOU SMIT: Take a look at
    24 the ruffle on the bed.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: It's
    0503
    1 disturbed. And I didn't look under the
    2 bed. It's pulled out.
    3 LOU SMIT: Is that something
    4 that would be usual or unusual?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it may be a
    6 bit unusual. That room didn't get used much and
    7 the cleaning ladies would clean it and make it
    8 neat and Patsy used it to fold laundry, on top
    9 of the bed, but it didn't get used. So you
    10 know, somebody would have straightened that out
    11 when they cleaned the room, I am sure. It's a
    12 little unusual I would say.
    13 LOU SMIT: If I might just
    14 touch on a couple of other things. When
    15 you, the police officers at one time asked
    16 you for a note pad.
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    18 LOU SMIT: Tell me the
    19 circumstances surrounding that?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Linda Arndt when
    21 we found the note and she said look, as a matter
    22 of routine, I need samples of your handwriting
    23 and Patsy's, just routine, I said I understand.
    24 So I grabbed a note pad that had some of Patsy's
    25 grocery lists or something on it, and I said
    0504
    1 this is Patsy's handwriting and they grabbed a
    2 pad I had taken some notes on from a seminar and
    3 it was on the bar and I said this is my
    4 handwriting.
    5 LOU SMIT: Where, do you remember?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: This bar.
    7 LOU SMIT: And where was
    8 Patsy's?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy's was on
    10 this table here.
    11 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    12 VOICE: John, would you point to
    13 the bar again?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: This is the back
    15 hall in the garage, this little sink bar that I
    16 had, the sink was right there. Pad that I
    17 picked up.
    18 LOU SMIT: Was on that table?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Was on that
    20 table.
    21 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I just gave
    23 them the whole pad. I said this is
    24 Patsy's handwriting, this is mine.
    25 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now, I am
    0505
    1 going to show you two photographs; that's
    2 number 52 and number 645, that shows that
    3 particular area. And I will show that for
    4 the camera. Can you pick that up? And
    5 these were taken again during the
    6 kidnapping phase of the investigation.
    7 Now, if you will just take, first of all,
    8 52 and tell me what you see there?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's the back
    10 hall. There is a couple of things over here by
    11 the stairway that would have been put there to
    12 take downstairs for storage. There's a plastic
    13 bag.
    14 LOU SMIT: Do you know what's
    15 in that bag?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Not for sure.
    17 LOU SMIT: Do you know why
    18 it's there?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Not for sure. No.
    20 It don't -- it doesn't (INAUDIBLE).
    21 LOU SMIT: Did here Patsy say
    22 where she got the note from?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: She said it was on
    24 one of the steps, I think the third step or the
    25 second step of this spiral staircase.
    0506
    1 LOU SMIT: Did she say how
    2 she first observed that, what caught her
    3 attention?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Just that it was
    5 laying this, she came down the steps, and she
    6 said at first she thought it was a note from the
    7 cleaning lady, because it kind of looked like
    8 her handwriting, just didn't put much account to
    9 it. I mean, what is somewhat meaningful is that
    10 that's -- 95 percent of the time we came up and
    11 down that stairway.
    12 LOU SMIT: You used it all
    13 the time?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: All the time.
    15 MIKE KANE: And would people know
    16 you used it? Seems like if you put something
    17 there people would know?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    19 LOU SMIT: Who would know that?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I wish I knew. I
    21 mean, that's one of the things that perplexed
    22 us, why not the front stairway, which you know,
    23 you might -- you could very logically say I
    24 come down that way.
    25 LOU SMIT: Why not on the
    0507
    1 bed, on her bed?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.
    3 LOU SMIT: Who would know
    4 that you would use it? I mean, this may
    5 be a clue and that's why --
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I think, and Patsy
    7 and I have talked about that, that somebody must
    8 have known that we use that stairway all the
    9 time. I don't know if a cleaning lady ever left
    10 notes there for her, for example.
    11 LOU SMIT: Did anyone else
    12 ever leave notes? Have you ever had a
    13 note or had anything left there?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I remember.
    15 I mean if I left Patsy a note I usually leave it
    16 on the kitchen counter. You always go to the
    17 kitchen first. When we came back. If I left
    18 her a note, she was gone somewhere, she would
    19 always come back to the kitchen first, so that's
    20 where I leave notes. I mean, yeah, I think
    21 that's pretty significant.
    22 LOU SMIT: Now what table
    23 did you get Patsy's pad from?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I am pretty sure it
    25 was this table. I don't know if that's it or it
    0508
    1 doesn't quite look like in this picture, but I
    2 think it was laying on this table. The only
    3 other place it could have been, but I swear I
    4 picked it up off this table, would have been the
    5 telephone table right here.
    6 LOU SMIT: Do you
    7 remember --
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Not with a
    9 hundred percent certainty, but I would, my
    10 recollection is that I picked it up off of
    11 this table.
    12 LOU SMIT: Just one more
    13 question. I have got a photograph here
    14 called 17.7. Somehow this is in your roll
    15 of pictures or someone's roll of pictures
    16 from before, okay, and it shows, first of
    17 all, put it to the camera so they can see
    18 that. And I am going to show you that.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    20 LOU SMIT: Do you know who
    21 would have taken that photograph?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: It's remotely
    23 possible that I was having trouble with my
    24 camera, I think, and I don't remember doing
    25 this, but I can remember just clicking the
    0509
    1 camera, trying to see if it worked.
    2 LOU SMIT: When was that?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, I don't
    4 know. I mean it was, you know, the only time we
    5 got the cameras out were typically at Christmas
    6 time. But this looks like the pad frankly that
    7 I gave her.
    8 LOU SMIT: Does that look
    9 like the spot where you would -- that you
    10 picked it up from?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, my
    12 recollection, yeah.
    13 LOU SMIT: So that could be
    14 the actual pad of a picture taken prior to
    15 what happened?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: That's possible.
    17 LOU SMIT: What else do you
    18 notice?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, this bag is
    20 still there, the school bag in the corner. The
    21 toy is still roughly where it was. There is a,
    22 I think that was a Santa Claus or something that
    23 was --
    24 LOU SMIT: Santa Claus suit?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Suit, yeah, or
    0510
    1 something, likes look. I don't remember what it
    2 was. But that's there. Looks like it's still
    3 in this picture. This red present is still
    4 there. Day-Timer is not there in this picture.
    5 LOU SMIT: What?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: The Day-Timer
    7 doesn't look like it's there in this picture.
    8 LOU SMIT: In the picture
    9 taken prior, the Day-Timer is not there?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I think that
    11 is -- I think that is my Day-Timer, but I am
    12 not sure. I had one that was similar, black.
    13 LOU SMIT: You notice the
    14 bags that are in this picture dated prior,
    15 the prior one, the bags, the plastic bags,
    16 does it appear as they have been moved to
    17 you?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    19 Definitely.
    20 LOU SMIT: Do you know why
    21 they would have been moved?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know what's
    23 in there. I mean it -- there is something else
    24 of course here on the floor, looks like a
    25 stocking or something, Christmas stocking. But
    0511
    1 no, I don't. I mean I can't -- sometimes when
    2 we bag up clothes that we were going to give
    3 away, you know, that might have been what that
    4 was.
    5 LOU SMIT: That's kind of
    6 coincidental, isn't it, to have a
    7 picture --
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it is.
    9 You think this came off my camera or
    10 you're not sure?
    11 MIKE KANE: I am pretty sure it
    12 came off your camera.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: They asked if we had
    14 any pictures of the Christmas party and I
    15 literally -- well, it's possible, because we
    16 had an unusual, an uncompleted roll of film in
    17 the camera and I think I clicked off some
    18 pictures fairly quickly just to finish up the
    19 roll, handed it to the policeman, one of the
    20 uniform fellows that was there, and they took it
    21 to get developed.
    22 LOU SMIT: Okay. So this
    23 picture here with the pad --
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Could have
    25 been when I was just burning up pictures.
    0512
    1 LOU SMIT: At the scene?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    3 LOU SMIT: That morning?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    5 LOU SMIT: So it could have been
    6 taken just shortly before?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, it's
    8 possible. That I think I remember they wanted
    9 pictures of the party and I said yeah, we got
    10 'em, there was wasn't complete.
    11 LOU SMIT: So then that would
    12 show the pad in its spot that morning?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    14 LOU SMIT: Prior to you giving it
    15 to the police officer?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    17 LOU SMIT: That explains that then.
    18 BRYAN MORGAN: If that's what --
    19 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    20 BRYAN MORGAN: I think when did you
    21 do that?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty early on.
    23 I mean, I think we very early on were concerned
    24 about the cleaning lady and the fact that she,
    25 you know, asked to borrow money and called Patsy
    0513
    1 all upset and had a big fight with her sister
    2 the day before. I mean this was just kind of
    3 like coming out, I didn't know about it, and you
    4 know, Officer French was there, we very quickly
    5 focused on the cleaning lady. I think they had
    6 a wire tap put in place, they got hold of the
    7 police in wherever she lives, Lafayette or
    8 something like that, and they got involved.
    9 So I think they wanted pictures of
    10 the party because I think she was -- she was at
    11 that 23rd party. Is I think the reason why they
    12 wanted that roll of film. As well as they had
    13 pictures of JonBenet on it. I don't remember if
    14 that was the reason or not, but...
    15 LOU SMIT: So then when this
    16 photograph was taken you think you clicked
    17 some off?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    19 LOU SMIT: That's why it
    20 shows the pad there and then later you
    21 gave the pad to the officer?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    23 LOU SMIT: Now it's a short time
    24 later then that these photographs are taken and
    25 trying to figure out why they would have moved
    0514
    1 the bag?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, there is
    3 something else laying there too.
    4 LOU SMIT: So that's a
    5 question we have to answer.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I don't know.
    7 There is no reason I would have moved it.
    8 LOU SMIT: So that wouldn't
    9 have been three days prior that this thing
    10 was taken, but it could have just been
    11 taken hours prior--
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: It could have been
    13 that morning. Yeah, it could have been.
    14 BRYAN MORGAN: Could I see the
    15 photograph? Lou, is there any way to tell where
    16 in the sequence of the roll it was taken?
    17 LOU SMIT: On the roll of John --
    18 I am sure there is. I am sure the negatives
    19 would be available.
    20 VOICE: (INAUDIBLE).
    21 LOU SMIT: That would show what
    22 number, that's absolutely true. Now if you
    23 remember doing that?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I do, I think I did
    25 it, because I had to finish the roll up to get
    0515
    1 it out of the camera.
    2 LOU SMIT: Makes sense.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Because it was
    4 one of those electric rewinds and all that.
    5 MIKE KANE: What kind of camera
    6 was it?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I -- it's a --
    8 well, I am stretching if I try and remember. We
    9 got a new camera, but I think that was after --
    10 after that.
    11 VOICE: But it had an auto winder?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I am pretty
    13 sure it did. Yeah, I am sure it rewound or --
    14 it was one of those cartridge (INAUDIBLE).
    15 LOU SMIT: I just, if I could just
    16 -- I know it's getting close to five on our
    17 thing -- I think we came here a quarter after
    18 and the tape was put on, these are two-hour
    19 tapes, so we still have a little bit of time but
    20 I wanted to ask you a question and that's in
    21 regards to the pineapple.
    22 Again, did you discuss that at all
    23 or try to find out what the reason for the
    24 pineapple in the bowl was, last night?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Last night? I
    0516
    1 told, let's see, if I tell Patsy that there --
    2 I think I mentioned that I was puzzled by the
    3 bowl, the large bowl of what appeared to be
    4 pineapple with a big serving spoon in it. It
    5 didn't register with her. She said I hope they
    6 show you a picture, because I think that's --
    7 LOU SMIT: We can do that at some
    8 point.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: It didn't register
    10 with her last night. I guess what I would want
    11 to ask her is where did you keep that
    12 silverware, is that in fact your good silverware
    13 in wherever it was kept. Because we had a
    14 drawer and just you know, everyday silverware,
    15 it was always full of teaspoons, there was a
    16 million teaspoons, and why that bowl had a big
    17 serving spoon in it, and what I think was, you
    18 know, a good silver, doesn't make any sense to
    19 me.
    20 LOU SMIT: That's a question we
    21 have to try to figure out, what happened there,
    22 when that bowl was placed there and who did
    23 that.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, where this
    25 spoon came from.
    0517
    1 LOU SMIT: And even the
    2 pineapple.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, is that
    4 what was in the bowl?
    5 LOU SMIT: Yeah. And we, and
    6 we haven't talked about this too much, but
    7 have you heard anything about pineapple in
    8 regards to your daughter?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Just that it was
    10 a question mark that there was either was or
    11 could have been pineapple in her system.
    12 LOU SMIT: And where did you
    13 hear that?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it's been on the
    15 tabloids, been on television; I think these
    16 fellows asked me about it. It started to come
    17 up as a question, at least in the media.
    18 LOU SMIT: See, that is a
    19 question, when did JonBenet eat pineapple?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know.
    21 I mean, the I will guarantee you it was not
    22 after she came home. She was sound asleep. So
    23 it had to be at the Whites or prior to that.
    24 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now when
    25 you say it wouldn't be afterwards, I mean
    0518
    1 now that's why you know this is going to
    2 be a (INAUDIBLE) the question that's going
    3 to always be asked?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: She was sound
    5 asleep. When I carried her upstairs. I mean I
    6 noted when I got her out of the car, and I
    7 struggled to get her out of the back seat and
    8 she was just, (NOISE) I almost dropped her, I
    9 kind of struggled to get her up in my arms and
    10 it didn't phase her, she didn't wake up, she was
    11 just out. And I know, if she goes to sleep, she
    12 is -- that's it for the night.
    13 LOU SMIT: Next question is,
    14 is could someone have gotten her up and
    15 fed her pineapple? I mean that is a
    16 logical question, and that's the question
    17 we have to answer.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't
    19 imagine that somebody could have gotten
    20 her up, fed her pineapple, and she
    21 wouldn't have screamed bloody murder.
    22 LOU SMIT: Why?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: What if it was a
    24 stranger.
    25 LOU SMIT: Well, it was.
    0519
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Had to be.
    2 MIKE KANE: Well, could have been
    3 -- (INAUDIBLE)--?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy said she
    5 didn't give her any -- I mean, first of all, if
    6 we had said oh, yeah, well, we gave her
    7 pineapple, that would have ended the discussion.
    8 LOU SMIT: That's correct.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: But we didn't.
    10 LOU SMIT: But the fact
    11 though, John, is she has pineapple in her
    12 intestines, okay. She has that in there.
    13 No one has fed her pineapple that we know
    14 of.
    15 Could someone have fed her
    16 pineapple that night is all I will say,
    17 could somebody have done it? I mean if
    18 it's in there, that is a positive. There
    19 is nothing --
    20 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I understand,
    22 I understand. I mean, my suspicion when I
    23 first heard that was well, there must have
    24 been pineapple at the Whites' house, and I
    25 don't remember it but there was all sorts
    0520
    1 of little finger foods and the kids were,
    2 you know, in and out and grabbing this and
    3 that. We understand the Whites said no,
    4 they didn't serve pineapple. That's
    5 factual or not, but I guess my question
    6 would be well, did the kids go to the
    7 refrigerator, you know, and get a bite of
    8 pineapple at the Whites.
    9 If it wasn't there and was it
    10 earlier in the day, Patsy would most likely
    11 know, you know. She liked pineapple. And it
    12 wasn't -- if there was open pineapple in the
    13 refrigerator, it wouldn't have been -- I am not
    14 sure she could get that refrigerator door open.
    15 You have to ask Patsy. It was not easy, it was
    16 like a freezer door, big walk-in freezer door,
    17 it wasn't that easy to pop open.
    18 But they certainly weren't above
    19 going in the pantry, grabbing a box of cereal
    20 and, you know, having cereal and stuff. So I
    21 guess to say if it was, would not have been out
    22 of the question that she grabbed some out of the
    23 refrigerator in the day sometime, but I don't
    24 know that she could get the door open.
    25 But I mean, it's hard for to me to
    0521
    1 think that this intruder could have taken her
    2 downstairs and fed her pineapple. I just can't
    3 buy that.
    4 LOU SMIT: See, that is the
    5 thing, that's the one thing --
    6 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    7 On the counter you mean.
    8 LOU SMIT: We don't know.
    9 The pineapple is inside her, so we have to
    10 figure out how that pineapple got there.
    11 There is one way it could get there, she
    12 had to eat it at some point.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Are you sure it was
    14 pineapple?
    15 LOU SMIT: Yes.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No question?
    17 LOU SMIT: No question. No
    18 question. So that's always been the big
    19 bugaboo.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: What's the -- is
    21 there a time line based on where it was in the
    22 digestive system?
    23 LOU SMIT: That's always open
    24 to people's opinions. But there is
    25 various theories it could be anywhere from
    0522
    1 two hours to more than that. But again,
    2 it is in her intestine.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well my -- my
    4 amateur reasoning would be that she came
    5 home at -- she was in bed, she was asleep
    6 before we got home, which was, you know,
    7 9:00, 9:15. I believe she was killed that
    8 night.
    9 LOU SMIT: What night?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: The 25th. If I have
    11 my dates right. The 26th, evening of the 26th,
    12 rather than early in the morning or the next
    13 morning.
    14 LOU SMIT: Think about the
    15 date.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well okay, the 25th,
    17 Christmas Day night. So if you said midnight,
    18 that means there is three hours that I would say
    19 there is no way she could have eaten any, as --
    20 it's a time mark. I think Patsy -- see that
    21 picture, asked to see if that bowl looks like
    22 something that would have been in the
    23 refrigerator and left out, did JonBenet grab a
    24 bite when she left the house, I don't know. But
    25 I know as a father and as sound asleep as she
    0523
    1 was, that she didn't get up, we didn't feed her
    2 when we got home.
    3 She wouldn't have gotten up, Patsy
    4 didn't get up. She would have gotten up to feed
    5 her. So that isn't an option in my mind. I
    6 mean, it would be -- an intruder drug her down
    7 there and tried to feed her something, she would
    8 have screamed bloody murder. If she opened her
    9 mouth to eat pineapple, she would have screamed
    10 bloody murder.
    11 LOU SMIT: But still it's a
    12 fact that it's in there. There is nothing
    13 that we can do to change that particular
    14 fact.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I understand.
    16 LOU SMIT: So is there any
    17 possibility at all that Patsy could have
    18 done that, have gotten up and gone down
    19 there?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    21 LOU SMIT: Would you have known it
    22 if she had?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I wouldn't have
    24 known it but she certainly would have said it.
    25 I mean, there was no reason she would have
    0524
    1 denied it. I mean, it would be very easy, if we
    2 were trying to hide this, it would be very easy
    3 to say oh, yeah, I got up and fed her pineapple,
    4 that explains that, then put her back to bed.
    5 We didn't. So I --
    6 LOU SMIT: This is why, you know,
    7 people think about those things, and especially
    8 detectives.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, what I -- I
    10 guess one of the things that I felt all along is
    11 I mean this thing with oh, you know, we found
    12 the practice note and ransom note -- the
    13 practice ransom note on the pad. If I was
    14 setting this up, give me some credit for being
    15 smarter than that. You know, would I have
    16 handed Linda Arndt the pad that I wrote the
    17 practice note on? If we were trying to disguise
    18 something, why wouldn't we say oh, yeah, we fed
    19 her pineapple before she went to bed, that
    20 explains that. We didn't.
    21 So I can't -- I don't accept that
    22 that happened. If it did, I would have said it
    23 or Patsy would have said it. Even if we were
    24 guilty, I mean what's the big deal? I mean you
    25 know, what I mean, that it didn't happen. I
    0525
    1 know it didn't happen after she went to bed. So
    2 I -- there has to be another answer to that
    3 question. Than that she got up in the middle of
    4 the night and had a big bowl of pineapple and
    5 went back to bed or we got her up. So...
    6 LOU SMIT: Did she ever go
    7 out on her own to go down there and eat
    8 pineapple?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall that
    10 she ever did. I don't know. I don't think so.
    11 Not that I remember, ever, at night. She was
    12 getting to the point where she was -- she used
    13 to be not afraid of the dark or anything at all
    14 and then she was getting kind of -- she was
    15 growing up a little bit and getting afraid of
    16 the dark and, you know, just kind of normal
    17 things that -- that people start to think
    18 about.
    19 But she wouldn't have been -- I
    20 mean, we were out solidly asleep, we were all
    21 tired. Christmas is a big day, it's exhausting.
    22 I know she was, had to be exhausted.
    23 LOU SMIT: Can you see why we have
    24 that concern, though?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I can see why
    0526
    1 you -- you know, this question, where did it
    2 come from, but I don't think -- other than the
    3 fact that there is this bowl on the table, which
    4 I can't -- Patsy needs to look at it to answer
    5 that question. But I don't -- it's either very
    6 significant if the intruder somehow -- well,
    7 that just doesn't make sense.
    8 I mean JonBenet was a smart, strong
    9 little girl. And if she had the opportunity to
    10 scream and to kick and fight, she would have
    11 done that. No question in my mind. So I don't
    12 buy that, you know, an intruder sat her down and
    13 fed her pineapple.
    14 LOU SMIT: That explains how
    15 she got that? We have got to figure that
    16 out?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    18 LOU SMIT: I know.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think
    20 Patsy needs to see that picture, see if
    21 that makes any sense to her, that bowl.
    22 It didn't to me. If our kids or if we had
    23 prepared food for our kids, we would have
    24 given a teaspoon, because there is a whole
    25 drawer full of them. It would have been a
    0527
    1 heaping bowl of pineapple. Just -- if
    2 that bowl were in the refrigerator,
    3 covered with Saran Wrap or something, it's
    4 possible that Patsy would remember that.
    5 But I have to look at the
    6 picture, I can't see any other explanation
    7 -- it looked strange to me. Quite
    8 frankly.
    9 LOU SMIT: Mike?
    10 MIKE KANE: No, I don't have
    11 anything.
    12 LOU SMIT: You know, I
    13 might touch on this again and I know
    14 that's kind of an unsettling question for
    15 you because it put questions in your mind
    16 which is very difficult and we have had
    17 those questions in our mind too, how does
    18 that happen. We will touch on this again,
    19 okay?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: (Nodding head.)
    21 LOU SMIT: Maybe something will
    22 come to you and we will find that out.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, well, I
    24 thought about it a lot, I mean what I have
    25 principally thought about is was there pineapple
    0528
    1 at the Whites' house, and along with the other
    2 snack foods. I just didn't pay that much
    3 attention. The only thing I specifically
    4 remember was the cracked crab and Priscilla
    5 making a plate of it for JonBenet.
    6 LOU SMIT: I think there was
    7 a key to figuring this out too. You never
    8 know if sometimes things that puzzle you
    9 the most are the keys to figuring it out.
    10 So who knows what this will bring. Why
    11 don't we take a little break. I know that
    12 the camera is running low on film
    13 (INAUDIBLE).
    14 VOICE: Let's do some
    15 scheduling. How long do you think you
    16 have more?
    17 MIKE KANE: I have quite a
    18 few pages. (INAUDIBLE).
    19 MIKE KANE: I will bet I
    20 have maybe five hours for this guy. Four
    21 hours maybe, four hours.
    22 BRYAN MORGAN: Are we going
    23 to be looking at any more pictures?
    24 LOU SMIT: I have a whole
    25 bunch of stuff that I can show you later.
    0529
    1 I don't know if you want to reschedule
    2 those or not. Like I say, there is a ton
    3 of stuff that we can go through.
    4 BRYAN MORGAN: Here is the
    5 thing.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Excuse me.
    7 (Mr. Ramsey left the room.)
    8 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't know
    9 if anybody appreciates what this means.
    10 They got to worry about their child, they
    11 got to worry about where we are going,
    12 they got to worry about a bunch of people
    13 yelling and screaming. What I was
    14 thinking of is there any we can audio tape
    15 this tomorrow?
    16 We have two full days of this
    17 guy on tape, and I don't know anybody
    18 thinks that's so damn important, but
    19 whatever you needed them for, it's done.
    20 I am wondering if there is not some way we
    21 can do the questioning tomorrow in a place
    22 where it would be audio taped and moved to
    23 a site so we can't be seen.
    24 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    25 LOU SMIT: I think
    0530
    1 you're going to have to talk that over
    2 with Peter Hofstrom and Alex, they are in
    3 contact with other people that want
    4 certain things done too. Why don't we
    5 take a break and try to figure that out.
    6 And we will just make a decision.
    7 I am here for the duration,
    8 Mike's here for the duration, we will be
    9 here for as long as anybody wants to be
    10 here.
    11 MIKE KANE: You know,
    12 believe me, I appreciate the concern, we
    13 talked about this beforehand internally
    14 about just how to avoid any backup
    15 contingent plans if we showed up the first
    16 day with the press out there, and we did
    17 have those. But one of the things I know
    18 that the access to here doesn't have to be
    19 through the parking lot.
    20 BRYAN MORGAN: I understand
    21 that, but look -- there is, our life
    22 doesn't stop and start here. It's where
    23 do you go and where do you get home and
    24 where do you stay and do you move every
    25 night and all of that. The problem is not
    0531
    1 while we are here, the problem starts when
    2 we leave.
    3 LOU SMIT: But maybe we can
    4 have a diversion, we have done that before
    5 where we have a diversion and we did that
    6 before.
    7 (Discussion off the record).
    8 (Recess taken).
    9
    10
    11
    12
    13
    14
    15
    16
    17
    18
    19
    20
    21
    22
    23
    24
    25
    0532

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  4. #4

    Default

    0532
    1 __________________________________________
    2
    3 IN THE MATTER OF:
    4
    5
    6 INTERVIEW WITH JOHN RAMSEY
    7
    8 __________________________________________
    9
    10
    11 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW
    12
    13 VOLUME 4
    14 PAGES 532 - 704
    15
    16
    17
    18
    19 JUNE 25, 1998
    20
    21
    22
    23
    24
    25
    0533
    1 FOR JOHN RAMSEY'S INTERVIEW,
    2 THE FOLLOWING WERE PRESENT:
    3
    4
    5 LOU SMIT
    6 MICHAEL KANE
    7 BRYAN MORGAN
    8 DAVID WILLIAMS
    9
    10
    11
    12
    13
    14
    15
    16
    17
    18
    19
    20
    21
    22
    23
    24
    25
    0534
    1 LOU SMIT: We are ready to
    2 start. I am pretty sure the camera is
    3 rolling. Today's date is Thursday, the
    4 25th of June, 1998, it is approximately
    5 9:15 in the morning. Again for voice
    6 identification, for everybody.
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: John Ramsey.
    8 BRYAN MORGAN: Bryan Morgan.
    9 DAVID WILLIAMS: Dave
    10 Williams.
    11 MIKE KANE: Mike Kane.
    12 LOU SMIT: We would like to
    13 start off this morning and I am going to
    14 show Mr. Ramsey some photographs and the
    15 first photograph I am going to show, I
    16 will hold off just a little bit. You're
    17 familiar with your house pretty well on
    18 the 26th when this occurred?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    20 LOU SMIT: John Andrew's bedroom,
    21 did you ever recall any rope or cord being in
    22 his room?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Gee, it's possible,
    24 John Andrew loved the outdoors, he was there, I
    25 stayed in that room. I know he had seems like
    0535
    1 he had his backpack there for a while. So it
    2 wouldn't be -- I don't remember seeing any, but
    3 it wouldn't be --
    4 LOU SMIT: I would like to show you
    5 a photograph and have you just take a look at
    6 it. Do you ever remember seeing anything like
    7 that and on the back, this is just a container
    8 for it, that's photo number 114 and I will show
    9 it 114 and I will show it to the camera.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Geez.
    11 LOU SMIT: You can turn it over.
    12 There is another --
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: The person obviously
    14 I think you know would be John Andrew, but I
    15 don't -- it doesn't ring a bell.
    16 LOU SMIT: But he could have had
    17 things there in his backpack?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: It wouldn't have
    19 been out of the question.
    20 LOU SMIT: Just for the camera, the
    21 photographs we are looking at is photo 113, 114,
    22 115 and 116, and I will just hold that up to let
    23 the camera take a look.
    24 BRYAN MORGAN: May I ask just one
    25 question. Can you tell us if this is the form
    0536
    1 in which it was originally found?
    2 LOU SMIT: No, that's the bag it
    3 was put in for evidence.
    4 BRYAN MORGAN: So the paper bag is
    5 just in evidence.
    6 LOU SMIT: Evidence bag. And
    7 again that was just found in the room, and it
    8 was found in a bag in her room, that's all I can
    9 tell you at this time.
    10 BRYAN MORGAN: In a bag.
    11 LOU SMIT: Okay. We will just go
    12 on to the next photograph. I am going to show
    13 you a photograph, this will -- you had
    14 described your flashlight before. The one that
    15 you had. And we had a photograph on the counter
    16 of a flashlight and we discussed that before. I
    17 am going to show you another photograph and have
    18 you take a look at that, see if that looks
    19 familiar to you, that's a photograph of a
    20 flashlight, and I don't have a number associated
    21 with that.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's dirty.
    23 Mine was hardly used. You know, it was
    24 completely black. I don't know what the scale
    25 is here. Is that 3 feet do you suppose or maybe
    0537
    1 that's -- (handing a magnifying glass).
    2 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: It's dirty. Mine
    4 was not dirty.
    5 LOU SMIT: Is that a similar type
    6 flashlight as to what you --
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: It is similar if
    8 that's a metal case, and it looks similar. The
    9 end looks a lot different, the end where the
    10 battery is in. It looks -- looks similar, but
    11 it's very dirty. Mine was, I don't think mine
    12 ever got used; it was just in the drawer.
    13 LOU SMIT: Just another question to
    14 touch on the flashlight. You have seen the
    15 photograph before of the flashlight on the
    16 kitchen counter. Do you have any idea how that
    17 got there, have you thought about that?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: A little bit, but I
    19 didn't have a flashlight that morning, no, I
    20 don't. I mean there was a lot of chaos going on
    21 and the kitchen was kind of ground zero, so the
    22 police could have left one there or whatever,
    23 but no, I don't. I don't remember ever leaving
    24 a flashlight there.
    25 LOU SMIT: You had said before that
    0538
    1 you had gotten some binoculars and things to
    2 look out the window. Is it possible you took
    3 things out of the drawer, that's just a --
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think
    5 so, because the binoculars were upstairs in my
    6 bedroom. That's where I went to bed.
    7 LOU SMIT: I would like to show you
    8 another photograph and this again is photograph
    9 562 and this was also a photograph taken during
    10 the crime scene investigation, and again I will
    11 just hold this up to the camera. It shows a bag
    12 and I would like you to identify that, if you
    13 can.
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: That's a plaque I got
    15 when I was at the Naval base in Subic Bay late
    16 60's, early 70's, I don't know if the date is
    17 on. I was stationed there. It was hand carved
    18 by Philippines, they had a lot of craftsmen that
    19 could carve like that. I don't recall where it
    20 was, it wasn't something that I had out.
    21 LOU SMIT: Who else would have
    22 known about that, because there has been a lot
    23 of things said about Subic Bay training center,
    24 things of that nature? What does that say on
    25 there by the way?
    0539
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: It says Lieutenant
    2 J.P. Ramsey, PNBC, Subic, which is where I was
    3 stationed. USNR, I think.
    4 LOU SMIT: Does it say anything
    5 about Subic Bay Training Center, does it have
    6 initials on this?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: It's PWC, was the
    8 public works center.
    9 LOU SMIT: I see.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: U.S. Navy Public
    11 Works Center, Subic Bay, Philippines. March
    12 '68. October '70.
    13 LOU SMIT: You have to speak a
    14 little louder.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it says
    16 March 1968 to October 1970, CEC, which is Civil
    17 Engineer Corps.
    18 LOU SMIT: Do you know where you
    19 kept that at home?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: It might have been
    21 in my closet, in my dressing room, which is here
    22 (indicating) in these closets up on a shelf,
    23 perhaps.
    24 LOU SMIT: In the study area?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Or it could
    0540
    1 have been down here somewhere stored but --
    2 LOU SMIT: Not displayed?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.
    4 It wasn't -- it wasn't a big deal.
    5 LOU SMIT: Okay. Okay I am going
    6 to show you some more photographs, and do you
    7 remember whether your children played baseball
    8 or bats or anything of that nature?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Used. I mean Burke
    10 played baseball. We used to play, have batting
    11 practice in the back yard.
    12 LOU SMIT: Do you know if there was
    13 one bat, two bats or three bats, do you have any
    14 idea?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think Burke
    16 had a bat, I think there was a little plastic
    17 bat JonBenet would use, a small one. Used to
    18 use little Whiffle balls. And.
    19 LOU SMIT: I am going to show you a
    20 picture, and again this is photograph number
    21 434, it's a photograph of a bat and it appears
    22 to be in the yard and this is a close-up of the
    23 same bat and I would like to show both pictures
    24 and it's for photograph 435.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that sort of
    0541
    1 looks like Burke's bat. I could probably tell
    2 exactly if it was or not, but looks familiar.
    3 It wouldn't be unusual for it to be lying out in
    4 the yard, because it just kind of just got
    5 dropped where it was left.
    6 LOU SMIT: I am going to show you
    7 another bat. It's photograph number 410. This
    8 was found in a different location and I will
    9 show you a picture of that bat.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, it's hard for me
    11 to tell whether it's similar, but --
    12 LOU SMIT: Do you know what area of
    13 the house that is?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Looks like it -- I
    15 know what it is. It's -- it is there it is
    16 here -- it's probably right in here.
    17 LOU SMIT: The area of the north
    18 window?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    20 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. This down
    22 spout came down right there, right there -- no,
    23 over here. Well, yeah, it was here. But that's
    24 definitely in this area.
    25 LOU SMIT: Do you ever recall
    0542
    1 seeing a bat there?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, that doesn't
    3 belong there. When we played baseball we played
    4 right out here, because that's the only place
    5 you could hit a ball, and that yard kind of
    6 stretched back this way. But you know, I don't
    7 know why there would be a bat there.
    8 LOU SMIT: I want to show you a
    9 photograph, a series of photographs from that
    10 same area, and I would like you to take a look
    11 at this, these photographs, they are numbered
    12 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240 and 241.
    13 These are photographs that were taken at the
    14 crime scene of the area of the window, and
    15 that's -- of the north bathroom window into the
    16 home. And I would like to show these to John
    17 and first of all, I would like to ask you a
    18 couple of questions, if I can.
    19 That particular window goes into
    20 what room in the house, do you know?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I am not sure
    22 which window.
    23 LOU SMIT: Okay, the window, this
    24 window located right there?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: That goes into the
    0543
    1 -- that's a -- that window goes into the half
    2 bath that's on the first floor.
    3 LOU SMIT: First floor? Okay. Now
    4 look?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Is this the window,
    6 that kind of looks like the window in the
    7 picture.
    8 LOU SMIT: Yes.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: That goes into that
    10 little bathroom in the basement that's at the
    11 bottom of the stairs.
    12 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now I am going to
    13 show you a series of photographs and then you
    14 can identify them. Just identify them by
    15 picture number when you're looking at them and
    16 you can start with one photo and just kind of go
    17 all the way through. Let's start with the
    18 lowest numbered photo first, that's number 235,
    19 that would be fine.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, 235 is that same
    21 window we have been talking about, the bath
    22 would have been just to the right of this east
    23 trough or downspout, rather. I don't see the
    24 bath. There is no reason for that bath to be
    25 there, we never run this side of house, you had
    0544
    1 to go, to get this, I mean there is like a big
    2 planting area here and there is not much there,
    3 it's an arrow and this side of the house we just
    4 never went on. Activity was from the front door
    5 walkway back to the backyard. ^ NOTE back to
    6 the.
    7 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
    9 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    10 LOU SMIT: Just go to the next
    11 photograph, maybe you'll -- that's 236?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: The hose I think
    13 there was a faucet over this somewhere, exterior
    14 faucet, wouldn't be abnormal for the hose to be
    15 there, although I don't -- looks like it --
    16 LOU SMIT: Does that hose -- where
    17 does that show in relationship --
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's laying under,
    19 under that window.
    20 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    22 LOU SMIT: All right.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know what's
    24 on the window there, I can't tell. It looks
    25 like its smudged, however, the dirt is smudged.
    0545
    1 On the bottom sill. Like there is dirt, quite a
    2 bit of dirt moved in that sill area. And that
    3 -- and that's --
    4 LOU SMIT: Do you know of anyone
    5 that's ever went in that window?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: No, absolutely not.
    7 LOU SMIT: Could your children have
    8 played there and gone in that window?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    10 LOU SMIT: Photograph number 236?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: The same window.
    12 Just spring he had here and there. I don't know
    13 what this little yellow thing is. The ivies
    14 look a little beaten there for some reason. But
    15 back in the corner. Okay.
    16 LOU SMIT: Turn it over. 238 is
    17 the next view. Again, that's just -- just
    18 briefly describe it, if you would, and if you
    19 see anything that's out of the ordinary, please
    20 let us know.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I can't tell
    22 what's on the windowsill in the right-hand
    23 corner, but it almost like tape of some kind,
    24 but I can't tell.
    25 LOU SMIT: Here is another
    0546
    1 photograph.
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. The pine
    3 straw, there is no pine straw up against the
    4 window at all in this sill, whether it's all the
    5 way around it, that seems strange. That was
    6 kind of a deserted area of the house, we never
    7 got back there to -- you know, it was just a
    8 side of the house we never got to. So that
    9 definitely looks odd.
    10 LOU SMIT: Go to number 239.
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: It's not very clear.
    12 It's somebody has cleaned off that sill. In the
    13 center of it. And it looks like -- looks more
    14 like duct tape in that picture. I don't know
    15 whether there is dust on it, I can't tell. But
    16 that doesn't look at all normal. There is
    17 actually no pine straw on the sill or in the
    18 area in front of the sill. I don't see anything
    19 else in this.
    20 LOU SMIT: Okay, next one is 240.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Again, it's dirt has
    22 been disturbed. Looks like the window is
    23 calked, has been calked but not painted.
    24 Although that paint is in the old paint scheme,
    25 we didn't -- we had the house painted but it
    0547
    1 looks like the painter never painted that
    2 window. Because it's white and the windows were
    3 painted either gray or purple. So it looks like
    4 (INAUDIBLE).
    5 Like he just didn't get to that.
    6 Again, it's just, it's been disturbed.
    7 LOU SMIT: Okay. And then
    8 the last photograph, I think there is one
    9 more?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: That's what I thought
    11 was tape, maybe chipped paint it look looks like
    12 now. Maybe (INAUDIBLE) or something. Under the
    13 light. It's definitely very disturbed in front
    14 of the window. I can't tell what this little
    15 item is here, right -- it's a dead bug or a
    16 seed or something. That's all I see in this.
    17 LOU SMIT: Now, have you
    18 ever gone in that window or --
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    20 LOU SMIT: Could you say for
    21 sure that that hadn't been there let's say
    22 a week or two before?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I wasn't back
    24 there, but highly, highly unlikely.
    25 LOU SMIT: Okay. All right.
    0548
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: That was the side of
    2 the house nobody went to. It was in the
    3 wintertime. You know, when we went in the yard
    4 it was spring, summer, fall. No reason
    5 whatsoever to be in there in months. If ever.
    6 I never was around that window. I think -- I
    7 think I may have opened it from the inside once,
    8 I don't even remember that, but...
    9 LOU SMIT: I just have a
    10 couple more photographs that I want to
    11 show and then I will let Mike take over
    12 because I know he is anxious. I am going
    13 to show you what this photograph is for
    14 the camera, is it -- this photograph was
    15 taken off of a video that was taken at the
    16 crime scene and so this is not a very good
    17 picture. It's not numbered and it's just
    18 a video paper reproduction of what was on
    19 the video.
    20 So I will show this to you,
    21 Mr. Ramsey.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, those
    23 are binoculars. Those look like my
    24 binoculars .
    25 LOU SMIT: What area of the house
    0549
    1 is that?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Kitchen --
    3 kitchen by the telephone. Right here, right
    4 there it looks like. (Indicating) (INAUDIBLE).
    5 Staplers, (INAUDIBLE). (Papers being rattled).
    6 I would say this looked like my binoculars which
    7 now are up at the lake I think.
    8 LOU SMIT: Do you have any
    9 idea how they got there, to that position?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I wasn't there. I
    11 don't know. Yeah.
    12 LOU SMIT: Now it seems,
    13 sometimes the reason I am showing you
    14 photographs or things like this is to
    15 recollect, so you have recollection, and
    16 also you may later on you may think hey, I
    17 remember other things and that's why we
    18 would like to be able to talk to you
    19 again, because a lot of times these -- we
    20 are bringing them right out of the dark
    21 and you don't know all the answers. Okay.
    22 Two more and I am done.
    23 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    24 LOU SMIT: It's just that I
    25 know we were limited a little bit on time,
    0550
    1 as far as different things. I would like
    2 to show you a couple of other photographs.
    3 Now these photographs again are
    4 unnumbered. And the photographs which are
    5 blowups of other photographs that we have,
    6 but what I would like to do is just show
    7 them to the camera here and it's just a
    8 letter and I will let Mr. Ramsey describe
    9 what this letter is, if I can.
    10 And there is just two
    11 different photographs and again these are
    12 blowups and they are not very high quality
    13 photographs, but sometimes all we have is
    14 a videotape record to get these
    15 photographs from, so we are trying to take
    16 these photos from a videotape. And I will
    17 just show you that, these two photos.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: These both the
    19 same pretty much, I guess.
    20 LOU SMIT: Yes, they are
    21 pretty much the same. What do you see in
    22 those photographs, Mr. Ramsey?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I am not really
    24 sure. I guess it looks like Christmas, I am not
    25 sure. Message that's kind of written in a fancy
    0551
    1 -- printed in fancy letter style.
    2 LOU SMIT: Have you ever seen
    3 a letter like that?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: It doesn't look
    5 familiar. I can't tell.
    6 LOU SMIT: I can tell you
    7 that --
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: It says
    9 somebody loves you all. Merry Christmas.
    10 LOU SMIT: I can tell you
    11 that these items were found in the trash
    12 can in your daughter's room and it was
    13 torn up.
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Do you know
    15 what the word before "loves" is? Somebody
    16 loves you all?
    17 LOU SMIT: I am sure that
    18 that has been looked at very closely. It
    19 appears to be a Santa Claus letter.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: (MULTIPLE
    21 SPEAKERS). Friend, enjoy your holidays,
    22 Christmas (INAUDIBLE). Well, it doesn't
    23 look like anything I have seen before.
    24 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: And I don't
    0552
    1 know what it would be doing, you know,
    2 torn up in -- looks like it's torn down
    3 here, maybe. On the right side.
    4 LOU SMIT: You have no reason or no
    5 idea how it may have gotten there?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    7 LOU SMIT: Okay. Again these are
    8 two photographs for the camera. Okay. That's
    9 all I have for now. And if you think of
    10 anything in regards to this, I would appreciate
    11 it if you would -- (INAUDIBLE).
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Are we ready
    13 to talk more about the pineapple later on?
    14 LOU SMIT: If you would like
    15 to, you can talk about it now.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: All right.
    17 Bryan chastised me a bit on the way home,
    18 he said like you were very adamant that
    19 she wouldn't be eating pineapple. What do
    20 you know for sure? I said I know we
    21 didn't feed her pineapple. I know I
    22 didn't feed her pineapple, I know Patsy
    23 didn't feed her pineapple, because she
    24 said she didn't.
    25 And I was going on track of
    0553
    1 there is no way of a strange intruder
    2 could have gotten her down there without
    3 her screaming, kicking and hollering and
    4 fed her pineapple. But you asked I think
    5 if what if it was someone she knew, and
    6 that's conceivable. And --
    7 LOU SMIT: How would you
    8 explain it?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, at the risk of
    10 just unfortunately after this case already
    11 jumping to the conclusion there was apparently
    12 one of JonBenet's friends or parents that day
    13 said JonBenet told them that Santa Claus was
    14 going to come visit her that night, last night,
    15 not the night, I don't know if that's hearsay on
    16 my part.
    17 LOU SMIT: Where did you hear
    18 it from?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I heard it
    20 from our investigators. I think.
    21 LOU SMIT: Okay?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. So let's,
    23 if that's true, and if the Santa Claus were
    24 somebody she knew, she adored Santa Claus, they
    25 had a special relationship. If he was the one,
    0554
    1 came into her room, as previously promised, she
    2 wouldn't have been alarmed, she would have gone
    3 downstairs with him, gone wherever he wanted. I
    4 don't know why he would have sat down and fed
    5 her pineapple, but it's possible.
    6 LOU SMIT: Do you have any
    7 ideas who this could be?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Bill McReynolds is
    9 the only Santa Claus I know. That she knows.
    10 LOU SMIT: Didn't JonBenet
    11 have other Santa Clauses?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
    13 LOU SMIT: How about a fellow
    14 named Cal?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't -- I don't
    16 know.
    17 LOU SMIT: How about a Santa
    18 Claus that may have been on her note, on
    19 the Christmas --
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think
    21 there was one. No.
    22 LOU SMIT: How about another
    23 Santa Claus from a previous years?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, this Bill
    25 McReynolds has done it for two or three years.
    0555
    1 Patsy would know, but I don't know if there is
    2 anyone else before that or not. I don't recall
    3 if there was. We had a guy at Atlanta, he used
    4 to come to our Christmases as Santa Claus and
    5 that's kind of how we got the tradition started,
    6 he would come to the Christmas party, kind of
    7 our office Christmas party at the house, that
    8 was, you know, five, six, seven years ago. She
    9 wasn't even there, frankly, so --
    10 LOU SMIT: Do you understand
    11 why I pushed you on this?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I say it hit
    13 me like a ton of bricks when I thought about it.
    14 I said that's very conceivable. Trying to
    15 explain where she ate pineapple and there was
    16 pineapple on the table. I don't know if that
    17 bowl of pineapple on the table came -- I don't
    18 remember seeing it that morning, but it was
    19 chaos, so you know, there was food that was
    20 gotten out, when people were there. They made
    21 toast, I think, that was pretty much all
    22 confined to the kitchen, the kitchen counter
    23 area.
    24 You know, it's possible that bowl
    25 was brought out as part of the food for people
    0556
    1 that were there, in which case this -- that
    2 doesn't quite fit. But it's possible.
    3 LOU SMIT: John, you think
    4 about that, and I am sure you have
    5 investigators and stuff that will think
    6 about that too. Is it possible you might
    7 check, you know, any sources of that and
    8 we will do the same thing. But that's a
    9 question we had to ask. So if you come up
    10 with anything on that, that is kind of an
    11 important thing in the case, and I would
    12 like to know it personally and I am sure
    13 every investigator here would like to know
    14 that.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well --
    16 LOU SMIT: It's there?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: It's -- if I -- you
    18 know, if I recall this little tidbit that her
    19 mother said that JonBenet said Santa was going
    20 to come visit her the evening of the 26th, she
    21 never told us that. And if that's something
    22 they would have, you know, secretly prearranged,
    23 would have been very possible, because I think
    24 JonBenet took Santa through the house, you know,
    25 that night of the 23rd or was with him while he
    0557
    1 was there the year before, I remember that.
    2 If I came -- if I in fact -- if
    3 in fact that's who said that to her and in fact
    4 was said, and somebody she knew, and was
    5 expecting, particularly Santa Claus, she would
    6 hop right out of bed, you know, gone to the mall
    7 if he wanted to.
    8 LOU SMIT: You see that that
    9 pineapple is a clue, I mean that's in the
    10 case.
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's -- you
    12 know what I don't understand, I guess, to -- is
    13 when she would have eaten, could she have eaten
    14 it during the day, you know, grabbed a bite of
    15 pineapple at our house or Fleet's house or how
    16 much pineapple. So you guys would know that a
    17 lot better than I. But if we say okay,
    18 let's -- let's have the hypothesis that she ate
    19 the pineapple sometime between 9 p.m. when she
    20 came home and -- then and we found a bowl of
    21 pineapple on the kitchen table, I know for a
    22 fact that I didn't do, serve her pineapple, I
    23 know for a fact that Patsy didn't because she
    24 said she didn't. She wouldn't have gotten up
    25 and just gone down and fixed herself a big bowl
    0558
    1 of pineapple in my opinion, she's never done
    2 that that I ever recall.
    3 She was dead tired. And she
    4 wouldn't do that. An intruder wouldn't have --
    5 say she could open her mouth, she would just
    6 scream bloody murder and we heard her, she sure
    7 wouldn't have sat there eating pineapple, but if
    8 it was somebody she knew I don't know why she
    9 would have sat down and ate pineapple, but
    10 JonBenet liked pineapple, no question about it.
    11 So that's good.
    12 I am glad you brought that up too.
    13 Did I say that? You know, we were suspicious of
    14 McReynolds I guess in the beginning and he was
    15 the only -- he came to the memorial service, a
    16 good friend of mine who was there said that you
    17 guys need to go back and look at that video,
    18 because when Patsy went up to hug him, he pushed
    19 her away.
    20 And this Jim Hudson is the fellow's
    21 name that said this. He said my brother's, I
    22 don't know, in Orange County, been working with
    23 pedophiles for 35 years and I described Santa
    24 Claus to him and he said that's the guy. So
    25 early on we were saying wow, well, Santa Claus,
    0559
    1 you know, acting so feeble and how could he have
    2 carried her down the stairs, and was the
    3 feebleness an act? Possibly. Was this all part
    4 of a grand play that they put together? He
    5 certainly showed up on the Today Show, you know,
    6 a week later right in the middle of it, I am
    7 Santa Claus from Boulder, then he split for
    8 Europe. Obviously wasn't too feeble.
    9 And then he -- he certainly fits
    10 -- one of the things when I was hypothesizing
    11 with these guys early on about who could have
    12 done it, they said look, we are not going to do
    13 the same thing that the Boulder police have
    14 done, you know, you're right. But if I am
    15 working this hypothesis through, he fits the box
    16 that John Douglas drew for it, somebody we knew,
    17 somebody who was in the house, somebody I think
    18 that would have been jealous of people that had
    19 assets, I think it's not a bad thing, I never
    20 said a harsh word to him, but he would have been
    21 very jealous, apparently didn't have two nickels
    22 to rub together.
    23 So he and JonBenet had a kind of a
    24 special little bond. She worshipped him as
    25 Santa Claus and apparently from what we
    0560
    1 understand the guy is, if not a pedophile, he's
    2 a frequent visitor to pornography shops.
    3 LOU SMIT: Have you investigated
    4 that?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: We have gotten
    6 information to that effect. I don't know how
    7 much we looked at it, but --
    8 LOU SMIT: Are you sure,
    9 absolutely couldn't have?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely. We
    11 have some letters if him. We have a tape from
    12 him that hopefully you guys have. If you guys
    13 don't have it, I couldn't listen to it but it
    14 was a tribute to JonBenet or something like
    15 that. And apparently it starts up and it says
    16 you left Santa Claus and went, you know, doing
    17 all those fancy things and you came back to
    18 Santa Claus, our guy said it was very weird. He
    19 wrote me a letter saying that he carved
    20 JonBenet's name in a heart, it had the name of
    21 three other little girls that died early.
    22 I mean I couldn't start saying,
    23 okay, that's the guy. But that's premature, but
    24 that would be in my mind explain how, if we said
    25 JonBenet ate pineapple between 9 p.m. when she
    0561
    1 went to bed and when we found her, that is the
    2 only way that's plausible to me that she could
    3 have eaten. Is someone she knew and trusted and
    4 said let's go downstairs, there is a surprise.
    5 He might have sat there with pineapple and a
    6 glass of tea, I don't know, but --
    7 LOU SMIT: Those are things that
    8 have to be answered.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. So say it
    10 could be like -- last night I thought about it
    11 all night but.
    12 LOU SMIT: Mike, I am finished for
    13 a while and I will take a break.
    14 MIKE KANE: I want to go back to
    15 how we started this all off, and once again
    16 there are so many possibilities here, you must
    17 imagine that we are sitting in court, and Santa
    18 Claus is sitting -- it's almost writing a
    19 movie, prosecuting Santa Claus, but let's
    20 imagine that. Where do you think his lawyers
    21 are going to go?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess it depends
    23 on what other kind of evidence we have. And I
    24 don't know other than what these clues have been
    25 left around, I don't know what evidence, you
    0562
    1 know, hard unexplained evidence we have, that
    2 could possibly link to him, fingerprints, DNA,
    3 handwriting samples, both for he and his wife,
    4 one as writer --
    5 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    6 MIKE KANE: Where do you think his
    7 defense attorneys would go in defending him?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I think based on
    9 the, you know, public crucifixion or persecution
    10 that's been made on us, they would probably look
    11 at our excuses.
    12 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    13 MIKE KANE: More than anybody that
    14 a little bit of evidence, a lot of it not even
    15 accurate, people would rush to judgment and we
    16 understand that would be the natural way that
    17 anybody sitting in that defense chair would go.
    18 And I really hope you appreciate the fact that
    19 when I ask you a lot of these questions that I
    20 have been asking, I am not making any judgments.
    21 Lou is certainly not making any judgments, these
    22 are questions that some day hopefully, hopefully
    23 will get asked, because when I say hopefully,
    24 that means it's going to be because we are in
    25 trial against somebody. Do you appreciate that?
    0563
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Very much do.
    2 MIKE KANE: Okay. Let me go over
    3 some -- some things. Security type issues.
    4 You mentioned that Lockheed didn't really have
    5 very much in the way unless you were at a
    6 certain level, $300 alarm system, something like
    7 that. Did they ever give you any kind of
    8 training?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: None whatsoever.
    10 MIKE KANE: Did they have, I
    11 imagine Lockheed did have I would imagine have
    12 volumes and volumes of security procedures and
    13 things likes that?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I would sure have
    15 thought so. I think with large companies like
    16 that, at least based on my experience, sort of
    17 lacking is their visible executives done and say
    18 look, here is the things you need to be aware
    19 of. The freak's out there. You could be a
    20 target, you know.
    21 There is none of that. I don't
    22 know, I have never been associated with any
    23 company that did that. I think would be a great
    24 business for somebody to do, because it's
    25 desperately needed.
    0564
    1 MIKE KANE: So they never talked to
    2 you about for example travel abroad, what to do,
    3 how to handle yourself, how to stay out of
    4 trouble if you get in trouble?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    6 MIKE KANE: Nothing like that? Did
    7 you have any self-defense training?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    9 MIKE KANE: In the military they
    10 taught you how to shoot a 45?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, that was about
    12 it.
    13 MIKE KANE: Anything beyond that?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    15 MIKE KANE: Did you have security
    16 clearances? Lockheed I am sure --
    17 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't have with
    19 Lockheed because we weren't really in that part
    20 of the business. I had a top secret clearance
    21 when I was in the Navy.
    22 MIKE KANE: You never got like a
    23 DOD clearance as part of your association
    24 with --
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Not recently, I had
    0565
    1 a clearance, no. This is probably ten or 15
    2 years ago, to go into nuclear plants, I forget
    3 how that was given to me, but --
    4 MIKE KANE: Um --
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: As far as Lockheed.
    6 MIKE KANE: You're not aware of any
    7 threats to your company, I think you have been
    8 asked that.
    9 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, once there have
    11 been passed on I mean, been typically from
    12 employees that have been discharged, Jeff Meric
    13 being the most notable. Other than that.
    14 MIKE KANE: Hook lead --
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean one of the
    16 things I thought about -- you know, we extend
    17 credit to people, and we have had a lot -- well,
    18 I shouldn't say a lot. We have had number of
    19 people that we have either restricted credit or
    20 denied credit. That would come unglued, it's
    21 like saying your Visa card is full. Those
    22 people just go crazy and they always go right to
    23 the top. I want to talk to John Ramsey.
    24 And I talk to them occasionally,
    25 maybe once every month I get a call like that,
    0566
    1 and my response is I never make credit
    2 decisions. You know, I would be glad to put you
    3 in touch with the top people that do, and I stay
    4 totally out of that. Because that's not my job,
    5 I am not good at it. So --
    6 MIKE KANE: Had Lockheed sent any
    7 notices out to -- to your company about
    8 security issues or what not?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    10 MIKE KANE: Newsletters?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    12 MIKE KANE: All right. The, I know
    13 there was an alarm in the house, was it in that
    14 house before you moved in, did you have it
    15 installed?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was in. When
    17 we moved in. Obviously we had it updated and we
    18 furnished the house but --
    19 MIKE KANE: What was do done to it
    20 to update it?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I think there
    22 were some garage, I think the garage door was
    23 reworked a bit. In back of the garage we had a
    24 thing to the -- see, there was a door to the
    25 garage right there, this used to just be a
    0567
    1 closet, so we made an entry, that door out,
    2 those kind of little adjustments, but changed
    3 the window or the door, but that was it.
    4 MIKE KANE: The security system had
    5 motion detectors inside?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Some I think
    7 on the first floor, maybe the second.
    8 MIKE KANE: How about the doors, do
    9 you know were those --
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: As far as I know they
    11 were all --
    12 MIKE KANE: How about in the yard,
    13 did you have motion detector lights that would
    14 come on when you pull into the back?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    16 MIKE KANE: Did you ever have it
    17 serviced while you were there, the security
    18 system?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had it, I
    20 mean when we finally got the house done, I think
    21 they -- we had the alarm company out once or
    22 twice, or whatever, during that construction
    23 process. We had maybe on two occasions water
    24 leakage that caused, I think it was -- let me
    25 think. One of the sensors, maybe on the second
    0568
    1 floor hall, I can't remember exactly, but maybe
    2 the sensor back here, might have been up here,
    3 but we had water leakage in this area when the
    4 squirrels chewed the roof open and water got in
    5 the little box that was on the ceiling and it
    6 just started, just rained continuously. We had
    7 that replaced, I think.
    8 MIKE KANE: What ran?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Just the little
    10 you know, the -- (INAUDIBLE). I don't think it
    11 set off the alarm. Just a whine in the sensor.
    12 MIKE KANE: You had a smoke
    13 detector?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, maybe it was a
    15 smoke detector, maybe that's what it was.
    16 MIKE KANE: What was the company,
    17 do you remember?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Safe alarms, I
    19 believe.
    20 MIKE KANE: In Boulder?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, S-A-F-E.
    22 MIKE KANE: There were various
    23 components of that alarm system, there was I
    24 guess the intruder component, which would be the
    25 motion detectors and that kind of stuff. There
    0569
    1 was also fire?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    3 MIKE KANE: Any other --
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I mean as far
    5 as I know, it was monitored. The main reason, I
    6 mean I was most concerned about fire, as far as
    7 the alarm system.
    8 MIKE KANE: And they monitored it
    9 there from the headquarters and they had call?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    11 MIKE KANE: Okay. Um, I am going
    12 to ask you some questions about you, okay. How
    13 would you just describe yourself in a paragraph?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, um, fairly
    15 passive. Sensitive. Not extremely well-spoken.
    16 Decent work ethic. Loves his children. Loves
    17 his family. Likes free time. And is growing
    18 spiritually.
    19 MIKE KANE: How would others
    20 describe you?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, quiet, um,
    22 that's always how I am described, is quiet.
    23 Nice guy. Gentle. Hard to get to know.
    24 Doesn't talk a lot.
    25 MIKE KANE: You wonder why I ask a
    0570
    1 lot of questions?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Ha, ha, yeah.
    3 MIKE KANE: Did your parents get
    4 along when you were growing up?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Hum.
    6 MIKE KANE: And you came from
    7 Nebraska to Michigan?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. From Nebraska
    9 to Michigan and then kind of where I grew up,
    10 from junior high school on.
    11 MIKE KANE: Was there a conflict in
    12 your house growing up?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, none whatsoever.
    14 MIKE KANE: You had a brother I
    15 know?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    17 MIKE KANE: Any other siblings?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Just one brother.
    19 MIKE KANE: That's Jeff?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    21 MIKE KANE: Were you close to him?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: We are very close
    23 now. Jeff was my little brother and I am sure I
    24 taunted him to death when we were growing up,
    25 but yeah, we are close.
    0571
    1 MIKE KANE: Was there ever a
    2 history of psychiatric problems in your family?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    4 MIKE KANE: Alcohol?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    6 MIKE KANE: Before JonBenet's death
    7 were you ever treated for a psychiatric problem?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    9 MIKE KANE: Did you ever get
    10 counseling through your divorce?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: We talked,
    12 together talked to a marriage counselor. But
    13 after that, no.
    14 MIKE KANE: What was your, what was
    15 your socioeconomic status growing up I mean.
    16 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: We thought we were
    18 better off than most, but looking back on we
    19 were solidly middle class. My dad worked for
    20 the state of Michigan, the state of Nebraska, he
    21 was a great man, but didn't make a lot of money,
    22 but we thought we had lot, you know, we felt
    23 very -- I think most kids tend to feel they are
    24 better off than most people. We felt that way,
    25 but looking back on we go back to our old house
    0572
    1 sometime, and but we felt comfortable.
    2 MIKE KANE: What was the most
    3 traumatic thing as a kid that you can remember,
    4 growing up?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I have never really
    6 thought about that. I mean I can remember when
    7 my mother's brother died, I was just young, I
    8 was maybe six or eight years old, um, um, I
    9 remember when a friend of our's son was, who I
    10 kind of knew as a, kind of growing up at least
    11 to that point to be the, we were still living in
    12 Nebraska so I would have been in grade school,
    13 was killed. I can remember being sad about
    14 that. He died in a skiing accident.
    15 When I was in high school, I had a
    16 girlfriend who gave me the boot. That was kind
    17 of hard. You know, when I got in college, I was
    18 president of my fraternity and we had two
    19 fraternity brothers that were killed in a car
    20 accident, that was very tough. So you know.
    21 MIKE KANE: Well, I am not
    22 suggesting you ever got out of hand as a kid,
    23 but if you did, how would your father deal with
    24 that?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I can specifically
    0573
    1 remember, and I must have been, could have been
    2 7, eight years old probably, there was a new
    3 house being built and I and a friend of mine
    4 went over and threw bricks through the basement
    5 window. That was so much fun, we broke all the
    6 windows in the house. I don't remember feeling
    7 like that was bad, it just was, we did it. We
    8 were being mischievous and my dad made me rake
    9 the yard for about a month after that.
    10 MIKE KANE: Was there any corporal
    11 discipline?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: None that I
    13 remember, no.
    14 MIKE KANE: Has Mrs. Ramsey ever
    15 talked about these things growing up, things
    16 that were traumatic to her --
    17 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: No, she had a nice
    19 childhood.
    20 MIKE KANE: Did she ever talk about
    21 how her parents disciplined her?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: All I remember her
    23 saying is that her dad is also a very quiet
    24 person. All he had to do was say something
    25 stern you know, to them, and they melted. That
    0574
    1 was their discipline, but it was very adequate.
    2 MIKE KANE: We talked about your,
    3 you know, your religious beliefs now, how about
    4 growing up?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we were raised
    6 Episcopal. My mother took me to the (INAUDIBLE)
    7 holy trinity (INAUDIBLE) church, I was an
    8 acolyte. When I got older I went to the church
    9 that my friends did, which was a Methodist
    10 church. You know, I think that for part of my
    11 life, you first went to church because your
    12 parents made you, and then you kind of went to
    13 church because you figured it might be a mistake
    14 not to. And your spiritual development, at
    15 least for me, has been a slow process.
    16 MIKE KANE: And I don't know if I
    17 heard you say it or I read it, went to Michigan
    18 state undergrad.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    20 MIKE KANE: And did you go to
    21 graduate school?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    23 MIKE KANE: Where was that?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Michigan State
    25 also.
    0575
    1 MIKE KANE: What was that in?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Undergraduate was
    3 in electrical engineering and graduate school
    4 was in marketing, business marketing.
    5 MIKE KANE: Did you get an MBA?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    7 MIKE KANE: Okay. What did you
    8 like about school?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, we had a lot of
    10 fun, I mean that was part of it. I mean, we had
    11 a lot of laughs. I didn't really settle down,
    12 become a good student until my second year of my
    13 program. I think as I recall I kind of
    14 graduated by the skin of my teeth, in
    15 undergraduate school. But I mean we had
    16 football games, and parties and campus life.
    17 MIKE KANE: What are the things you
    18 didn't like?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, you know, I mean
    20 I am sure I didn't like to study. I mean I
    21 didn't -- he was -- I was in a hard
    22 curriculum. You know. I don't remember
    23 anything I didn't like, other than, you know, I
    24 wasn't a totally absorbed student. I was a kid
    25 that was there kind of having fun and realized
    0576
    1 he had to stay in school to graduate, and that
    2 conflicted a bit with the social part. I made
    3 it through.
    4 MIKE KANE: What year did you go to
    5 Michigan State?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I graduated in 1966.
    7 MIKE KANE: The year of the
    8 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)
    10 stood in line all night for those tickets.
    11 MIKE KANE: I remember that well.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes. It's amazing.
    13 That game is probably more memorable -- that's
    14 memorable as Kennedy's.
    15 MIKE KANE: That's size of the
    16 side --
    17 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    18 VOICE: Don't hold it against him.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I wish you hadn't
    20 told me that.
    21 MIKE KANE:
    22 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    23 MIKE KANE: The, you said yesterday
    24 about -- Lou asked you about Gloria Williams and
    25 you said that didn't break up your marriage, but
    0577
    1 you said your marriage probably wasn't on a
    2 solid foundation to begin with. What did you
    3 mean by that?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Just in
    5 retrospect, you know, I think something I also
    6 thought about after we were divorced, but Cindy
    7 is a very, she is a very wonderful person, she
    8 was a wonderful mother for the kids. She was
    9 kind, came from a great family. You know, was a
    10 perfect wife and we were married for ten and a
    11 half years, but we weren't each other's best
    12 friend. We were around friends once and they
    13 were -- obviously, they were married, and they
    14 -- they just laughed at each other's jokes, you
    15 could just tell they were buddies. And Cindy
    16 was more my mother.
    17 I mean when I got out of college, I
    18 was really looking for a mother replacement. As
    19 I analyzed it myself, looking back on it. If I
    20 told a joke if it was at all off color, I
    21 probably got chewed out. So it was that kind of
    22 a mother discipline relationship, that we never
    23 really became best friends, and so there was
    24 just that element missing, I think, in our
    25 marriage. And it was kind of a -- as I did, as
    0578
    1 I thought about a lot, because it's not that she
    2 is not a wonderful person, a wonderful mother
    3 and has been very supportive of me in all this,
    4 we just lacked that part of the marriage.
    5 MIKE KANE: How did you end up in
    6 the Navy?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I, my dad was a
    8 World War II pilot, said if you got to go in the
    9 military, go in the Navy, because I used to risk
    10 by life flying jelly to the Navy in Burma.
    11 Silverware, we had plastic forks, whatever, that
    12 was kind of a frankly kind of --
    13 MIKE KANE: You didn't take up
    14 flying?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't, I was --
    16 it's one of my few regrets in life that I
    17 didn't. But I looked into it. Unfortunately, I
    18 talked to a recruiter and the guy totally blew
    19 it. I was there how do I learn to a pilot. We
    20 didn't sign you up to be a pilot, but you are
    21 going to be a manager, you are going to run
    22 people, you are going to work with that. I want
    23 to be a pilot.
    24 So I turned around, walked away,
    25 and that was it and never pursued, but that was
    0579
    1 a 6 and a half year commitment which was the
    2 other factor for me. At 22 years of age, that's
    3 a lifetime. So I mean, so I didn't do it but I
    4 always kind of wished I had.
    5 MIKE KANE: You stayed there for
    6 quite a while?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I stayed in for what
    8 I was obligated for, which was 3 and a half
    9 years, approximately and then I stayed in the
    10 reserves for a while. Six or eight years.
    11 MIKE KANE: How was your health
    12 going?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: It's fine.
    14 MIKE KANE: You have any
    15 hospitalizations?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: As a kid? No.
    17 MIKE KANE: Or at any time.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I used to have
    19 allergy problems and those used to drive me
    20 crazy, when I was in high school or in college.
    21 It really through a good part of my adult life.
    22 So I was always kind of a constant (INAUDIBLE).
    23 I think the only time I have been hospitalized
    24 for an illness was I had a viral infection
    25 called pericarditis, which, I don't know, four
    0580
    1 or five years ago, and I think I was in the
    2 hospital for a day or two.
    3 MIKE KANE: Where was that?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Here in Boulder.
    5 MIKE KANE: Boulder Community?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    7 MIKE KANE: I am sorry?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: But other than
    9 that, I think that was the only time I have ever
    10 stayed in the hospital that I can remember.
    11 MIKE KANE: Have you ever lost
    12 consciousness or anything like that?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    14 MIKE KANE: What kind of
    15 medications, were there anything you regularly
    16 took?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, for my
    18 allergies, what finally worked for me was a
    19 nasal spray that was cortisone based and that
    20 kind of came out and I was able to use it, it
    21 really helped. And I used that off and on for
    22 several years. Other than that, no.
    23 MIKE KANE: You talked about now
    24 taking Prozac and using Paxil?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Clonopin.
    0581
    1 MIKE KANE: Clonopin?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    3 MIKE KANE: Any other prescription
    4 medicines that you were on other than --
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Antibiotics
    6 occasionally or something like that, but no.
    7 MIKE KANE: How about, I know you
    8 took Melatonin. Did you take that on a regular
    9 basis?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I would get
    11 treated with it, because it was interesting from
    12 some of the -- I mean, back this was you know 2,
    13 3 years ago, they were, it was -- did
    14 everything for you, made your hair grow, made
    15 you sleep, had all these wonderful claims plus
    16 there is no side effects, you can buy it
    17 over-the-counter, hey great, I will give that a
    18 shot. But it also was helpful in jet lag.
    19 And so and I even, if I were, you
    20 know, tense or things on my mind, it did help me
    21 sleep. And but I wasn't religious about taking
    22 it but for a period of time there I kind of
    23 tried it and experimented a little bit with
    24 dosages and I think I used it and I still do for
    25 going overseas, for jet lag.
    0582
    1 MIKE KANE: How often did you use
    2 it, to sleep?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, sporadically,
    4 but I mean when I first got interested in it I
    5 probably used it every night for a few weeks and
    6 then I kind of got out of the habit. But you
    7 know, once to three times a week, probably.
    8 MIKE KANE: And were these on
    9 particular occasions that you would use it?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Just, if, as I
    11 say, if I had things on my mind or I just want
    12 to sleep well or you know, just it would give
    13 you a little bit of a peaceful sleep.
    14 MIKE KANE: Normally would you not
    15 have it or just on certain times?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I usually slept
    17 pretty well. I always woke up early. But I
    18 didn't have any particular problems sleeping.
    19 Unless I had something on my mind.
    20 MIKE KANE: Okay. Yesterday, you
    21 mentioned your personal physician, I can't
    22 remember --
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Hughey.
    24 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE). And
    25 that's the person you saw, whenever you needed
    0583
    1 to go to the doctor?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    3 MIKE KANE: Any other physicians --
    4 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I had a nose
    6 doctor that did some nose surgery when I was,
    7 had some polyps in my nose that were
    8 contributing to the allergy problem and he kind
    9 of went in and did a Roto-Rooter job on the
    10 nose, I don't know what they call it, but --
    11 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE).
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: It was here in
    14 Boulder. And I don't remember his name. Ear,
    15 nose and throat guy, I could probably figure it
    16 out if I looked in a phone book, but --
    17 MIKE KANE: Any other restrictions
    18 on your flight medical?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Other than I have
    20 to have reading glasses, that's the only --
    21 MIKE KANE: That night of the 26th,
    22 you took Melatonin?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    24 MIKE KANE: Were you uptight at
    25 all, anything like that?
    0584
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I remember.
    2 I just remember thinking I want to get a good
    3 night's sleep because we are going to get up
    4 early in the morning to fly, I just want to be
    5 rested.
    6 MIKE KANE: What attracted you to
    7 Patsy?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: We met through
    9 some friends, she was staying with some friends
    10 and I knew the husband who was in (INAUDIBLE)
    11 business and Patsy was, I don't know, 22, 23, he
    12 was 34, 35, and she had just gotten out of
    13 college, and I had met her, but had just kind of
    14 -- she didn't really catch my eye or it wasn't
    15 an instant affection, but we would go down, I
    16 would go down there for dinner and we would play
    17 cards or something just as a group, and I really
    18 started to admire her wit and just her as a
    19 person. And thought she was, for a 23 year old
    20 she is got lot on the ball, and then asked her
    21 out and I just felt very, very right and --
    22 MIKE KANE: And how long did you
    23 date before you got engaged?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, boy, I don't
    25 know. A year, probably or so. (INAUDIBLE).
    0585
    1 MIKE KANE: What year did you get
    2 married?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: 19 -- I got
    4 married in November of 1980.
    5 MIKE KANE: And before you got
    6 married, how long had you manned -- how long
    7 were you engaged?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, well, again, I
    9 don't remember for sure but it would probably
    10 have been six or eight months I suppose.
    11 MIKE KANE: Did you have any
    12 conflicts at all during the time you were
    13 dating, until the time you were married?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: With Patsy?
    15 MIKE KANE: Yeah.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not really.
    17 No. No.
    18 MIKE KANE: Did you take her home
    19 to the family?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah.
    21 MIKE KANE: Were they still in West
    22 Virginia then?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum. Yep, I
    24 remember that, and she said her dad, I was the
    25 only boyfriend she's ever had that he talked to.
    0586
    1 I was flattered by that.
    2 MIKE KANE: So you passed that
    3 test?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    5 MIKE KANE: What kind of hobbies
    6 and outside interests do you have?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I like flying is
    8 probably my biggest hobby, interest. I enjoy
    9 doing that the most of anything extracurricular
    10 I do. I got into sailing for a few years, I
    11 didn't have a passion about it.
    12 MIKE KANE: Photography, do you do
    13 any of that?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I like boating,
    15 water, to be around the water.
    16 MIKE KANE: Do you read any
    17 magazines on a regular basis?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I get you know
    19 the ALP magazine, probably get Sailing, Sailing
    20 World. That's really about it. Occasionally I
    21 pick up a yachting magazine or something like
    22 that, just on boats.
    23 MIKE KANE: Did you have any
    24 (INAUDIBLE).
    25 LOU SMIT: Just, on the sailing I
    0587
    1 was going to ask (INAUDIBLE).
    2 MIKE KANE: Go ahead.
    3 LOU SMIT: We can just go through
    4 the -- John, I would like to show you a couple
    5 of items here. Again, I will show this to the
    6 camera. This is a cord, I would like you to
    7 take a look at that, and --
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well yeah, that's
    9 similar to as I recall the cord --
    10 LOU SMIT: On --
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: On JonBenet. And
    12 it looks like (INAUDIBLE), but I remember
    13 briefly.
    14 LOU SMIT: Have you ever
    15 seen cord like that before?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-uh. Well like
    17 this no, this looks like drawstring cord that
    18 you find in a coat jacket. There was some
    19 laying on a driveway up in Michigan, some
    20 drawstring cord, and it was --
    21 LOU SMIT: Is that like the cord?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: It's not quite this
    23 fat. It's a little thinner. But it's this
    24 woven.
    25 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    0588
    1 LOU SMIT: Have you witnessed what
    2 it says on there, if you would, just a little
    3 bit there?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Ten suppose, uses.
    5 LOU SMIT: Would you have
    6 ever used cord like that on your boat or
    7 would anyone else that you know of used
    8 that type of thing?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't think
    10 -- no, this is a little too flat for what you
    11 use on a boat. Of course, most of the lines are
    12 a lot bigger, if they were woven, they were, you
    13 know, 3 inch to a half inch diameter, round. We
    14 did put a, one of the requirements for doing
    15 this long distance race, which you had to fasten
    16 the wooden planks that cover the hatch by a cord
    17 to the boat, so in case you top, you got upset
    18 or whatever it is, you wouldn't lose those hatch
    19 covers, and there was a cord that Fleet put on
    20 the boat for that, which -- but it wasn't flat
    21 like that. It might have been a woven cord that
    22 was more round. So you know I --
    23 LOU SMIT: Do you know anyone that
    24 in the camping or tenting or anything that would
    25 have that kind of cord?
    0589
    1 Any of your personal friends that
    2 may be into that, anybody at Access Graphics
    3 (INAUDIBLE)?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, not that really
    5 heavily into it. Well, yeah, the only friends
    6 we had that were really into camping were Bob
    7 and -- his son's name who is a friend of
    8 Burke's, is Woody. They moved to Seattle, they
    9 got divorced. Patsy would remember the name,
    10 but I can't remember the last name. They were
    11 really into camping. A lot. They also he was
    12 also a big sailer.
    13 LOU SMIT: Could you give us
    14 --
    15 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.) Are
    16 they still in Boulder?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they are in
    18 Seattle.
    19 MIKE KANE: In Boulder Christmas of
    20 '96?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, they moved to
    22 Seattle, I want to say -- that's a good
    23 question. They moved to Seattle, yeah, it might
    24 have been before then. No, I don't -- I will
    25 find out. Patsy would know exactly.
    0590
    1 LOU SMIT: Could you find
    2 that out?
    3 VOICE: Yes, sir.
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Woody, Bob and
    5 I forget her name.
    6 VOICE: We can maybe do that
    7 today?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy would know.
    9 LOU SMIT: Okay. Anything,
    10 any other ideas on it, did you ever see
    11 anything like that in your house or in
    12 your boat or in your plane or in your
    13 hangars or anything like that?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall.
    15 No.
    16 MIKE KANE: Is this similar to or
    17 identical to the cord?
    18 LOU SMIT: Yes, it is.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Identical.
    20 LOU SMIT: As close as we can
    21 get.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Interesting.
    23 LOU SMIT: See, that's
    24 another clue in this case. That's why
    25 it's so important that if you have any
    0591
    1 ideas of someone who could have had
    2 something like that or any indications or
    3 you could have seen?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    5 MIKE KANE: Someone was in your
    6 house, someone could have had access to it that
    7 came in and if it's an intruder that would tell
    8 us something about the intruder, they didn't
    9 bring that so --
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no, I don't ever
    11 remember having anything like this. You know,
    12 if I look at friends that -- I mean some people
    13 buy rope and they just buy twine and that's it.
    14 This is more of a -- you know, somebody used
    15 this as more of a -- this is a little more
    16 refined than just buying clothes line rope, for
    17 whatever the uses were.
    18 Um, you know, certainly Fleet White
    19 was knew a lot about lines, mostly associated
    20 with sailboats. He knew a lot about that. I
    21 don't know if the Walkers camped or not, Stuart
    22 and Roxie Walker, I don't recall. Probably not.
    23 LOU SMIT: I am sure that
    24 you probably write down and so forth maybe
    25 find some similar, maybe you will be able
    0592
    1 to put more and more together on this,
    2 okay?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    4 LOU SMIT: But remember any -- the
    5 person left behind something, that's why all
    6 these little things that the killer left behind,
    7 we have to try to explain, we have to try to
    8 find it. We pretty well determined what kind it
    9 was, but we still have to find a person that has
    10 something like this. That's why, John, we have
    11 to look at you, if you ever had anything like
    12 that on your boat or anywhere and that's why --
    13 everybody thinks that you might think they are
    14 getting up on that but they have to find this
    15 out.
    16 For instance, if you said you have
    17 never seen this and somebody said hey, he bought
    18 a whole bunch of this stuff at one time, that's
    19 why we have to check into your background and
    20 that's why a lot of this investigation is going
    21 on. A lot of times you think well, they are
    22 trying to pin it on me, but really we are trying
    23 to eliminate you too. If we can't find it that
    24 just goes toward seeking the truth also.
    25 MIKE KANE: And you understand
    0593
    1 that you know, I think we all believe in here
    2 that you know the truth will set you free and
    3 the worst thing, if you know let's take the
    4 (inaudible) sitting in the defense room and they
    5 find out that something that just seemed
    6 innocuous to you was not true, that's --
    7 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well --
    9 MIKE KANE: To raise that
    10 reasonable doubt.
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I can absolutely
    12 promise you that we, I am telling nothing but
    13 the truth, to the best of my ability.
    14 MIKE KANE: And every question we
    15 ask, I know that we all have a tendency
    16 sometimes to think that's not important or geez,
    17 I don't really want to say that because it's
    18 embarrassing or something like that, but those
    19 are the kinds of things that come back and haunt
    20 us later on.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: We are way beyond the
    22 point of being embarrassed by anything. Our
    23 whole lives is out in public, most of the stuff
    24 isn't even true so I am certainly not a perfect
    25 individual and there is things I am not proud of
    0594
    1 in my life.
    2 VOICE: I assure you we take the
    3 point and we know that you're dealing with.
    4 LOU SMIT: I am going to show you
    5 another item. It's a roll of tape.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: This looks certainly
    7 similar in color but it looks much wider than I
    8 recall. I tried to remember, I would say that
    9 it must be that kind of width.
    10 LOU SMIT: What would you measure
    11 that to be?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Like an inch maybe.
    13 LOU SMIT: An inch wide?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: That I am saying is
    15 the width that I remember.
    16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Color the
    17 same?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's close.
    19 LOU SMIT: What about the
    20 texture and the looks of it?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember the
    22 texture, I mean it looks close. It's not too
    23 far off.
    24 LOU SMIT: Would you look at
    25 the back (INAUDIBLE)?
    0595
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Gee, I am
    2 having such a hard time but what I
    3 remember about it was it, it was cut
    4 squarely, it wasn't torn or wasn't too
    5 much. It was just a very properly cut
    6 piece of tape.
    7 LOU SMIT: That was your
    8 impression?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: That was my -- as I
    10 remember it. But it was black, it was a bit
    11 narrower than that.
    12 LOU SMIT: Was it light in
    13 that room or how could you tell?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know.
    15 It just seemed light enough. And I don't
    16 remember if I turned on the light or not, but.
    17 LOU SMIT: I mean did you
    18 look at the ends?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, just an
    20 impression, you know, and as I thought about it
    21 later, that's what I remember.
    22 LOU SMIT: Now John, I know
    23 we are touching right back on a very
    24 delicate spot, but was this tape wrapped
    25 around anywhere, was it stuck down?
    0596
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was very firm
    2 across her lips.
    3 LOU SMIT: And you recall
    4 that?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    6 LOU SMIT: And why did you have to
    7 work at it to get this tape off?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I mean just came
    9 off, it wasn't loose, it was tight enough.
    10 LOU SMIT: Fine, we won't go
    11 into any more of that. But have you ever
    12 seen anything like this before? This is
    13 really critical, because our -- the
    14 killer left that behind, there is no doubt
    15 about that. It's a clue that we have.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Is this the size
    17 of the tape?
    18 MIKE KANE: Yes, it is.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought it was
    20 narrower.
    21 VOICE: When you say he left that
    22 behind, do you mean he left a roll behind?
    23 LOU SMIT: No, he left the
    24 tape behind.
    25 VOICE: Just the tape that we
    0597
    1 find that was on her mouth?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, if I were to
    3 speculate that's something that Fleet White
    4 would have, which --
    5 LOU SMIT: And why would you
    6 say that, have you ever seen anything like
    7 that?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Maybe, you know,
    9 I can't -- I can't remember for sure, but Fleet
    10 had -- when we got, went up to get our boat
    11 ready for this Mackinaw, Mackinaw race was a
    12 300-mile race, Fleet had some special tapes, I
    13 remember white tape. And possibly I remember
    14 black duct tape. The only kind of duct tape I
    15 have ever seen a gray.
    16 LOU SMIT: Did you have gray
    17 duct tape in your house?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Certainly
    19 did. Gray duct tape.
    20 LOU SMIT: Do you know where
    21 you would have purchased it or got it or
    22 anything about it?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, no. Um, I mean
    24 I don't know that I ever used it but -- I know
    25 I have used gray duct tape before.
    0598
    1 LOU SMIT: Do you believe you
    2 used it in your house here or where?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I have used
    4 it up at the lake. So it doesn't -- some duct
    5 work there, you know, I don't know that I have
    6 ever used it in Boulder. Because we had steam
    7 heat, steam and hot water heat.
    8 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE). We
    9 have to try to find that someone that has
    10 that. How often have you seen black duct
    11 tape?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall that
    13 I ever have. But if I try to imagine back,
    14 (INAUDIBLE) see this, this feels like, see you
    15 never use duct tape on a boat. It's too --
    16 it's got too much adhesive. It would just leave
    17 a big mess. I think what I would be curious
    18 about is this adhesive, less adhesive than you
    19 find on standard duct tape, which kind of feels
    20 like it is, but I haven't looked at duct tape in
    21 a while.
    22 But if -- if it, I mean if it is
    23 more specialized than just plain old duct tape,
    24 you know, one of the purposes would be to so it
    25 didn't leave such a mess, this duct tape.
    0599
    1 LOU SMIT: Any friend, any of
    2 your friends, any of the people at Access
    3 Graphics, anybody that -- if we are
    4 hunting for a killer here we have to find
    5 somebody that has that, and that's where
    6 questions have to be asked. Who would
    7 have something like that? Somebody has
    8 seen somebody with that? That's why we to
    9 check all this out with you. Did anybody
    10 see you with this type of duct tape? We
    11 have to eliminate that.
    12 We just ask you, you say no,
    13 there is no way that we know that, that's
    14 why we have to check these records and we
    15 have to check everything, if we find that
    16 you have it that's not going to look too
    17 good. If we find that you don't have it,
    18 that's going to look a lot better.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recognize
    20 it. I don't think I have anything like this.
    21 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Is this -- can
    23 you buy this stuff in a hardware store?
    24 LOU SMIT: I think that they
    25 checked all over the place, to find
    0600
    1 various areas, and they have a list of
    2 different places I am sure that sell this.
    3 But again, can you remember buying any
    4 duct tape anywhere in town?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I, I can't certainly
    6 can't remember, and if I would have bought duct
    7 tape I think it would have been gray.
    8 MIKE KANE: How about Patsy?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Um.
    10 MIKE KANE: Project?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's possible.
    12 MIKE KANE: Christmas decorating I
    13 mean --
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible.
    15 You know she, we had lots of glue and Scotch
    16 tape and stuff like that around. Packing tape,
    17 clear packing tape. Brown packing tape.
    18 But -- the only time I ever remember duct tape
    19 was gray duct tape. And it's more fibery, it's
    20 got more fibers in it. It's tougher. It's also
    21 got a little more adhesive on it.
    22 LOU SMIT: Before we take a
    23 break, Mike, what I would like to do and then we
    24 will get back in, there is an area here, in
    25 order to determine, a lot of things are going to
    0601
    1 have to be determined. Let's say you wrote out
    2 a check for duct tape. People want to know if
    3 you did or didn't. We are going to need a lot
    4 of records from you, do you have any objection
    5 to signing waivers for records? I mean,
    6 yourself.
    7 Now I will tell you just some of
    8 the records we are going to need okay, and I
    9 made kind a list of them and they are just
    10 general, we don't have specifics. But we are
    11 going to need, for instance, we are going to
    12 need your bank records, if we can get them. We
    13 are going to need credit card records, to see if
    14 you charged anything on credit cards.
    15 We are going to need movie rental
    16 records, just to see if you rented "Speed" and
    17 "Dirty Harry" or any of those movies. We are
    18 going to need --
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: You don't have any of
    20 that, those kind of records now?
    21 LOU SMIT: Certain records
    22 require permission to do that or we need a
    23 subpoena for certain records, so we can
    24 either have it where it's given
    25 voluntarily or sometimes I have to go
    0602
    1 through a subpoena, and that's one of the
    2 Grand Jury things that would need to be
    3 done. But again we are asking here for
    4 these things and it's up to you whether
    5 you want to --
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely no
    7 problem with that.
    8 LOU SMIT: We are going to
    9 need any records on telephone or cell
    10 phone records, okay, all of the phone
    11 records that you got. We may need to have
    12 some Access Graphic business records that
    13 show stuff that you may have purchased
    14 through Access Graphics. We are going to
    15 need your home phone records. We have got
    16 some of these already.
    17 We are going to maybe need
    18 like I say some company financial records.
    19 We are going to need medical records, both
    20 from you and from Patsy, if we can get
    21 that, to show any type of pathology that
    22 you may have in regards to this. In other
    23 words, if somebody out there says hey,
    24 they went off the deep end about four or
    25 five years ago, nobody knows about this,
    0603
    1 we have to find that out. And that's for
    2 you and for Patsy. I hope you understand
    3 this. It's not --
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Just I say
    5 I am surprised you don't have all that.
    6 MIKE KANE: See, these have to be
    7 realized a lot of times, personal things, I just
    8 want to know how you feel about it?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: It's not an
    10 issue.
    11 BRYAN MORGAN: I am going to say I
    12 have had a discussion with Peter Hofstrom this
    13 morning about this long list and told him
    14 subject to conversation with my client I believe
    15 that the likelihood is very strong that we will
    16 produce all of that. We are not in a position
    17 to say if you do this, we will do that. And we
    18 want to get this thing moving.
    19 On the other hand, you said at the
    20 beginning of all this the time will come when we
    21 can ask some questions and I have got some
    22 questions, and I really think finally finally
    23 when you're finished we are entitled to know and
    24 I want this to proceed in good faith basis on
    25 each side and I told Peter and I will tell John
    0604
    1 and I will say it for everyone, I have a real
    2 problem with certain kinds of medical records.
    3 These people are entitled to a
    4 privacy to try to recover from what they have
    5 been through, and that's a very serious issue
    6 for me, so we are going to discuss that and make
    7 a reasoned decision on it. I think you will
    8 find that every time anybody has asked us for
    9 anything in your office you have gotten it. I
    10 think you will get virtually everything you have
    11 described with the possible exception of
    12 personal medical records that I think John and
    13 Patsy are at least entitled to make a reasoned
    14 decision on, Detective Smit, with respect to
    15 privacy about things they need to continue this
    16 healing process.
    17 Other than that, I don't think it's
    18 going to be an issue, but I have already
    19 discussed these matters with Hofstrom and he
    20 knows how we operate, and there won't be a delay
    21 on this either, we will move on it, we will give
    22 you an answer.
    23 LOU SMIT: This is what has taken
    24 so much time in this whole thing. By the time
    25 we go through lawyers one way, through the
    0605
    1 lawyers on the other side, even the police
    2 department has run into this because they have
    3 tried to get records and it goes through this
    4 process and you say hey, wait a minute, we can't
    5 do these things and then the process is delayed.
    6 I am had not saying that's not the
    7 way it it's supposed to be. It's just that it
    8 gives the impression that people are holding
    9 back.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: From my
    11 perspective, I have never ever told these guys
    12 not to provide whatever is asked for.
    13 BRYAN MORGAN: As the record now
    14 stands your office has never asked us for
    15 anything that we have not given. I am pretty
    16 clear on that.
    17 LOU SMIT: And I have no doubt
    18 about that.
    19 BRYAN MORGAN: I know you have got
    20 some phone records, I know we pulled all those
    21 together. I don't think this is going to be a
    22 problem. But we are going to take some time to
    23 think about some islands of privacy that I think
    24 you're entitled to have to continue your healing
    25 process, and I am very serious about that. So
    0606
    1 we will answer that in my view before the week's
    2 out.
    3 LOU SMIT: Let's take a break.
    4 It's about time to change the camera.
    5 (Recess taken).
    6 LOU SMIT: For purposes of the
    7 tape, we are continuing. It's 20 after 11. I
    8 think we broke right about 11 o'clock. It still
    9 is Thursday, the 25th of June, 1998.
    10 Everybody's present that was here before. I
    11 just stopped with the records that were needed
    12 and Bryan Morgan did make a statement on that.
    13 And Mike, if you would like to
    14 continue here, appreciate it.
    15 MIKE KANE: Where do you go from
    16 here, any future plans?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: We will, we have
    18 established a residence in Atlanta, which is
    19 home. Haven't been home for years. Burke is in
    20 a grade school. And that's certainly our
    21 current plan, given that we can choose some
    22 model of privacy and peace from the media.
    23 MIKE KANE: Business plans?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I have gotten
    25 involved with a software product that we are
    0607
    1 starting to market. We put that deal together
    2 first of June. Hopefully that will work.
    3 MIKE KANE: Burke was in here a
    4 couple of weeks ago and what did you feel about
    5 that?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, we were -- we
    7 were fine to have him interviewed. We were, you
    8 know, we have been in -- trying to keep him as
    9 normal as possible. Although it's very
    10 difficult with being chased around by cameras
    11 and people sitting outside your home at night,
    12 so you can't go outside, shoot baskets. But we
    13 were comfortable that he would be treated as a
    14 child, apparently he was treated like a king.
    15 So I think it was, you know, it was
    16 not a hurtful experience for him. As far as we
    17 can tell but --
    18 MIKE KANE: Have you talked to him
    19 about that, did he feel it was --
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. In fact was
    21 funny in one of the issues, the issue with the
    22 original request from the police was that he not
    23 talk to his parents about it. We said that's
    24 ridiculous. There is not anything that my son
    25 is not going to be able to talk to me about,
    0608
    1 fundamentally and that became a sticking point.
    2 But yet, all we could get out of
    3 him was you know, what did they ask you?
    4 Nothing. Was it fun? It was the most boring
    5 thing I have done in my life. End of statement.
    6 BRYAN MORGAN: Where did you go?
    7 Out. What did you do? Nothing.
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: So that was a lot
    9 of fuss about I guess we all thought about
    10 12-year-old boys, they don't really talk much.
    11 MIKE KANE: The, have you and
    12 Mrs. Ramsey, and maybe yesterday I asked you
    13 about your relationship and your relationship
    14 today, and I noted that just having been
    15 involved in cases over the years myself, that --
    16 involving children that have been killed and the
    17 parents of the children have been killed, I have
    18 seen rock solid marriages end up in divorce
    19 because of that, and there is a lot of reasons,
    20 obviously there is a lot of tension, there is a
    21 lot of guilt that turns into anger and gets
    22 directed. Mrs. Ramsey gone through any of that?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not really. You
    24 know, we talked to someone early on, I don't
    25 remember which doctor, Seevy (phonetic) or who
    0609
    1 it was, and we asked that question, what --
    2 somebody quoted as well 70 percent of marriages
    3 break up after something like this happens. We
    4 said why is that? And I think the reason that
    5 in my mind was that because one or the other
    6 blames the other for not doing something.
    7 And I think if Patsy and I were
    8 both to sit down and blame ourselves for lots of
    9 things, not having the alarm on, not checking
    10 the doors, not being more security conscious,
    11 not letting JonBenet -- I mean there is lots of
    12 things that in retrospect as a parent my God how
    13 stupid were we.
    14 But one of the things that my
    15 friends kind of reassured me on was you made
    16 every effort, we probably sold more burglar
    17 alarms and security systems because of this,
    18 which is good. My good friend Rod Westmorland
    19 is probably as security conscious as anybody I
    20 know said after this he went through his house
    21 and found windows that were unlocked. You know,
    22 he said he was shocked at how unsecure his house
    23 was.
    24 So that's given us some relief from
    25 guilt. Um, we both lost something that was
    0610
    1 very, very precious to us, and it knocked us
    2 both to our knees, and that's --
    3 MIKE KANE: What is -- what does
    4 Mrs. Ramsey feel about the whole pageant
    5 business?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she's never
    7 really talked much about it. I think she saw it
    8 as what it was and through her eyes it was just
    9 a fun thing for her and JonBenet to do.
    10 MIKE KANE: I mean in retrospect?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: In retrospect, I
    12 don't know, I have never asked her that
    13 question. It's not a fair question to ask.
    14 MIKE KANE: I mean has she ever
    15 brought it up, when you talked about how you go
    16 through these feelings if I only put the alarm
    17 on, if I only did this, has she ever talked
    18 about it?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, because I mean
    20 -- no, I mean that's because we don't know. I
    21 think, you know, once we know what happened, you
    22 know, I thought God, I mean John Douglas said
    23 someone's angry with you, John, or jealous, you
    24 know, if I did something at work unknowingly
    25 that has caused me to lose my daughter. If it
    0611
    1 turns out that if it's somebody at work that we
    2 fired and they took it out on me, that's going
    3 to be a heavy burden for me to carry.
    4 MIKE KANE: Did you know anything
    5 about JonBenet having dumbbells in her room?
    6 Did she work out or anything like that?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.
    8 How big were they? Were they -- Burke might
    9 have had some, Patsy had some, she was
    10 recovering from cancer, she used to ride her
    11 bicycle and work these dumbbells. They were
    12 usually -- they usually were in the TV room. I
    13 am not sure they were there when she was works
    14 out, but those were the dumbbells that we had
    15 around.
    16 MIKE KANE: Okay. There were some
    17 surveillance equipment that was put in your home
    18 after the fact. When was that done?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, these fellows
    20 did it, it was done because the house was broken
    21 into. We thought if it was broken into again we
    22 could perhaps have a lead. It might have been
    23 before Halloween, I don't remember. But it was
    24 put in because the house was burglarized or at
    25 least broken into. We thought if it happened
    0612
    1 again, we would perhaps get some information.
    2 LOU SMIT: Who actually owns
    3 the house now, John, there is a lot of
    4 confusion?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Lockheed
    6 graciously bought it as part of their executive
    7 transfer program. They buy it through a third
    8 party, that's what they specialize in, and they
    9 turn around and sell it. And I did that,
    10 because just because I, A, didn't want to deal
    11 with it, B, it was expensive just to have it.
    12 Even though the offer was probably half the
    13 value of what it was six months ago before it
    14 happened.
    15 And then Mike Bynum felt very
    16 strongly that he didn't want the house falling
    17 into the media's hands or TV crew or a film
    18 producer. And basically called and said I put
    19 together a group of people that are going to buy
    20 the house, we are going to hold it, so that it
    21 doesn't fall into the wrong hands. And we sell
    22 it, if there is profit, the profit's to be
    23 donated to JonBenet's foundation we set up and
    24 we were just overwhelmed that they -- we had
    25 friends that would do something like that.
    0613
    1 But they, I don't know if it's a
    2 corporation or a partnership or how it was set
    3 up, but that's who owns it. And I think he had,
    4 last I knew, some senior football coach was
    5 staying there. He hasn't really talked too much
    6 about it.
    7 MIKE KANE: Did you hear anything
    8 in the course of this last year and a half about
    9 JonBenet's body, that someone was suggesting
    10 that it was white paint?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I unfortunately had
    12 seen that in a tabloid or newspaper, briefly.
    13 MIKE KANE: Have you discussed that
    14 with anybody to get your insights on (MULTIPLE
    15 SPEAKERS) --
    16 BRYAN MORGAN: I am not implying
    17 one way or the other but (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS) no
    18 discussions about what we did or didn't.
    19 MIKE KANE: I understand that.
    20 BRYAN MORGAN: And you didn't
    21 intend it that way.
    22 MIKE KANE: I am just wondering
    23 what insights you have.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: That's disgustingly
    25 sick and it's something that you know there is
    0614
    1 certain amount of information that's just very
    2 difficult for me to handle, or to have. And
    3 that just struck me as nauseating to think about
    4 that, I didn't know much about it other than
    5 just a little clip I saw in the newspaper.
    6 MIKE KANE: I know you have
    7 provided some clothes last year. That I guess
    8 the request was the clothes that you might have
    9 been wearing the night before, the clothes that
    10 we are dealing were the ones to the best of your
    11 knowledge that you were wearing then?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Just as we could
    13 remember and tell what the photos looked like,
    14 that we had on.
    15 MIKE KANE: Okay. I think you were
    16 asked this back in April, of last year, and I
    17 think Patsy even said well, I guess this will be
    18 all over the paper, about her having breast
    19 augmentation. Was that Dr. Clouston (phonetic),
    20 was that the plastic surgeon?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was -- she
    22 had it done originally in Atlanta and they
    23 ruptured or, whatever. But which was discovered
    24 I think during her cancer treatment. And then
    25 she went to a Boulder doctor, Rapallo
    0615
    1 (phonetic), I believe. He was a plastic
    2 surgeon.
    3 MIKE KANE: Has there ever, has
    4 anybody ever made a connection, we talked about
    5 a connection between speculation and about the
    6 implants and cancer?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I wondered about
    8 that. I mean, yeah, I mean that's one of the
    9 things I looked at when I was studying what was
    10 going on, but you know, Phil Clouston I think I
    11 talked about that, and didn't feel there was
    12 really any correlation.
    13 MIKE KANE: Did she have that after
    14 you were married?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    16 MIKE KANE: How did the interview
    17 with -- if this was set up by your lawyers, you
    18 don't need to answer this -- the interview with
    19 the producer from Geraldo, there was a --
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, in Atlanta?
    21 MIKE KANE: Yes, there was
    22 Geraldo's producer and I think Patsy --
    23 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy is too
    25 kind. This woman walked up to the back door
    0616
    1 with a cameraman and that was the interview.
    2 Patsy would -- if Patsy had a mean bone in her
    3 body she would have told her to get the hell off
    4 or else. She didn't, she stood there and kindly
    5 talked to this women and then she left. She
    6 tried that again, I don't know, a month later,
    7 Susan Stine happened to be there. Susan called
    8 the police, the police threatened to arrest her
    9 and that's the last we saw of her. That's what
    10 Patsy should have done, but she is not that --
    11 she is not mean. That was the interview, of
    12 course I guess, I didn't watch it, but --
    13 BRYAN MORGAN: This may not be
    14 important, but we had nothing to do with that.
    15 As lawyers.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No one did.
    17 BRYAN MORGAN: And we are appalled
    18 by it.
    19 MIKE KANE: It was pretty schlocky.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Geraldo, he's --
    21 we are going to go after him if we can. He is
    22 one of the lowest of the low, as far as I am
    23 concerned.
    24 MIKE KANE: The Patsy call in to I
    25 guess it was right after Princess Di's death,
    0617
    1 she called in Larry King, were you there?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I was -- she
    3 was -- she was at her sisters I think, and
    4 unfortunately her sisters watched that stuff and
    5 Patsy was there, and saw it and -- and just was
    6 incensed that this Tony Frost was on this at
    7 all.
    8 MIKE KANE: From the Globe?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Should have been
    10 in jail, not in television. And I don't know
    11 what was said. I didn't see the show, I didn't
    12 ever see her comments, but --
    13 MIKE KANE: But that's what
    14 prompted -- the Globe's editor I guess is Tony
    15 Frost?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. They have
    17 been particularly nasty to us.
    18 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I (INAUDIBLE) the
    20 Globe some day.
    21 MIKE KANE: You going to publish --
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know, I will
    23 see how my ethics are, when they start looking
    24 at the profit side of that business, I am sure.
    25 MIKE KANE: You called Alex Hunter
    0618
    1 recently. What was that all about?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I got a call from a
    3 reporter who said, I forget exactly what she
    4 said, but basically -- I can't remember exactly
    5 what -- basically the net of it was that, you
    6 know, Alex had gotten this letter that had been
    7 written, he's confused as to whether that's what
    8 we really wanted to do or were going to do or
    9 willing to do, and I said I don't think -- just
    10 call him up. She said maybe you better, maybe
    11 you should.
    12 So I picked up the phone and called
    13 him and he said before we talk, I need to have
    14 permission from your attorneys to talk to you,
    15 and I said okay, I understand, and I think I
    16 called Bryan or.
    17 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't remember the
    18 conversation.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: That's --
    20 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: We had about a 15
    22 second conversation. But you know we are very
    23 frustrated, we don't like the going through
    24 filters and we want to find out who did this,
    25 and think that was just an outgrowth of
    0619
    1 frustration. If there is something that needed
    2 to be done, just pick up the phone and take care
    3 of it.
    4 MIKE KANE: What about this BBC
    5 production, do you remember anything about that?
    6 Is that going to be airing soon?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know --
    8 MIKE KANE: I heard something today
    9 as a matter of fact on the radio, that the 29th
    10 of this month?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: One of the
    12 biggest shocks to us, when you get in -- when
    13 something like this happens, the best you can do
    14 is to try to make something good come out of it.
    15 You know, what -- it can't just be the
    16 senseless loss that you say oh, well, and move
    17 on. Something substantially good has got to
    18 come out of this.
    19 One of the real cancers, I believe,
    20 in our society, is our media system, and I
    21 didn't really -- wasn't really particularly
    22 strong on this until we got into it, and saw how
    23 it operates, how inaccurate it is, how biased it
    24 is, and what a rush to judgment it is, and what
    25 an entertainment industry it is. I think it's a
    0620
    1 horrible cancer for us as a society. And we
    2 have no legitimate information system in this
    3 country today, that I know of. Certainly none
    4 that addresses a wide body of population. It's
    5 an entertainment industry. We became
    6 entertainment. To feed their profit coffers.
    7 And so one of the things I wanted
    8 to adamantly speak out about eventually was what
    9 a mess it is for us as a society, and I had
    10 envisioned, you know, writing books, going on
    11 television, sponsoring legislation. I didn't
    12 know, that was just one of the causes that I
    13 wanted to take up to try to make something good
    14 come out of this and Michael Tracy, who is a
    15 professor at CU had written a wonderful article
    16 I thought last summer that I read in the Boulder
    17 Camera that was as accurate an assessment of the
    18 media as I have ever read. You know, I couldn't
    19 agree with him more, I couldn't have written it
    20 as eloquently as he did, but it said exactly
    21 what I felt.
    22 And one way or the other we talked
    23 to him, and he said we would like to -- your
    24 story, what has happened to you, documents in
    25 real life a message that we have been trying to
    0621
    1 get out for years. But you can't just go on
    2 television and talk theoretical about you know
    3 the media's really messed up and people turned
    4 off and switch to Geraldo Rivera or something.
    5 So it's going to be wrapped around
    6 a national event that people are interested in.
    7 He said this was handed to us on a silver
    8 platter, the message that we want to get out.
    9 And we saw it and he said we thought that
    10 through acquaintances, you get interest from the
    11 BBC in airing it, which appealed to me, because
    12 that to me is one of the most legitimate news
    13 organizations in the world. It was in Britain,
    14 so it wasn't like the wolf watching the hen's
    15 house. It was made by somebody that was looking
    16 at the United States from afar, from a much more
    17 civilized society or a more mature society.
    18 And so that appealed to me. And it
    19 looked like the best opportunity we would have
    20 to address that topic. Much better than us
    21 trying to go around and individually talk about
    22 it. It was a one shot deal to address a real
    23 tragedy in our media system. And so that's why
    24 we wanted to do it. We said this is important
    25 to us, Patsy and I. Obviously these guys
    0622
    1 weren't crazy about it. One of the reasons I
    2 guess they wouldn't be. But we said no, this is
    3 -- this is one of the things we want to do. And
    4 this is the best vehicle that's going to be
    5 there to do it. And so that's the reason we
    6 participated in that.
    7 MIKE KANE: There was a, the only
    8 thing that I have read as far as stipulations
    9 go, and this may not (INAUDIBLE) but as the case
    10 was that the agreement was a no holds barred
    11 with the exception that it wouldn't be aired
    12 until after any Grand Jury. Is that true?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I didn't make
    14 the, that agreement.
    15 MIKE KANE: Okay, I don't -- if
    16 anything's not made.
    17 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: The only thing that
    19 I think we had, we had the right to say don't
    20 run it.
    21 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right now. We did
    23 have, we had no right to the content. I have
    24 never seen one inch of video from that. I mean
    25 it could come out great, it could be a disaster,
    0623
    1 I don't know. I think I have confidence in the
    2 people who put it together. I think the message
    3 they are trying to get out is exactly the
    4 message that we felt, but our entertainment
    5 media system is horribly, horribly messed up in
    6 this country. And we got to fix it as a society
    7 or we are in big trouble, long-term.
    8 MIKE KANE: So you don't know
    9 anything about when it's airing or?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
    11 I had heard July, I don't know if that was in
    12 Britain or here but.
    13 MIKE KANE: I just heard that on
    14 the radio this morning. Anything about the 29th
    15 ABC is --
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: ABC, they were
    17 talking to ABC about running it.
    18 MIKE KANE: What do you think of
    19 that?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: ABC was
    21 acceptable to us, NBC was absolutely not
    22 acceptable. NBC is a tabloid and they are a
    23 problem. They are the, Fox NBC are very
    24 tabloidy. ABC is, has, in our impression, after
    25 you know throughout this, is they have been the
    0624
    1 most credible of anybody in terms of ethics and
    2 standards and so that made a lot of sense.
    3 MIKE KANE: Did you have input into
    4 that or --
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: We just said don't
    6 come to us telling us NBC is going to do it.
    7 Over our dead body will that happen.
    8 MIKE KANE: Okay?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: They also said look
    10 what's important is we get it so it is on the
    11 widest -- I wanted it to be on PBS, that was my
    12 thought. Which is public broadcasting, that's
    13 the whole -- that's the hope for our
    14 information system as best I can tell. They
    15 said well, it's yeah, that fits but it's not the
    16 audience, you're going to get 10 percent of the
    17 audience that you get with a message on a major
    18 network. So what they said the objective should
    19 be is where do we get the largest audience, and
    20 it absolutely has to be run uncut. I said okay.
    21 But I still don't like NBC.
    22 MIKE KANE: Just go through this
    23 here quickly. You talked yesterday about books,
    24 what kind of books -- I used to talk more about
    25 movies, but what kind of books do you like?
    0625
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I like -- I
    2 kind of have gotten -- I don't read as much as
    3 I used to. I used to read a lot.
    4 MIKE KANE: What kind of things do
    5 you --
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, Tai Pan was a
    7 favorite book of mine. Shadow Moon. A lot of
    8 the James Clavell books. Chesapeake I enjoyed.
    9 MIKE KANE: James Mitchner?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Mitchner, yes.
    11 Clavell was Tai Pan I guess. I enjoy, I start
    12 to realize I enjoy books that have some
    13 historical content to them, but they put in
    14 fictional environment. I read Undaunted Courage
    15 recently, about Lewis and Clarke's expedition.
    16 It was interesting but it was also a neat story.
    17 Kind of learned about history. So I kind of
    18 gravitated to that kind of book, I think in
    19 terms of interest. I don't read that much.
    20 MIKE KANE: You mentioned
    21 yesterday, Lou had asked you about the, and you
    22 -- I don't know if you brought the name up
    23 or -- it's a book that was in your, about --
    24 oh, I know what it is. You said that one of the
    25 worst books you had read when you were talking
    0626
    1 about how you dealt with Beth's was Goodbye is
    2 Forever?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: The title. I don't
    4 know if I read the book, but the title was too
    5 -- that wasn't the message I was looking for.
    6 Because I don't believe goodbye is forever.
    7 MIKE KANE: And I think the entire
    8 title was when "Goodbye Is Forever: Learning to
    9 Live Again After the Death of a Child." That's
    10 the book that you were talking about?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, sounds like
    12 it.
    13 MIKE KANE: John Brentwell, I
    14 guess?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    16 MIKE KANE: Did, you had that right
    17 next to your bed. Is that something that you
    18 read.
    19 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't
    21 remember reading it. I mean we had a lot of
    22 those books around and but I don't think it was
    23 anything I was reading currently, at that time.
    24 MIKE KANE: Do you remember having
    25 read it?
    0627
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if I
    2 ever read it, because as I said, the title was
    3 difficult. I might have skimmed it, but -- I
    4 don't remember reading it.
    5 MIKE KANE: Did you purchase it?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, I don't know
    7 that I would have purchased it. Like I said,
    8 that wasn't what I wanted to hear.
    9 MIKE KANE: Do you know who did
    10 purchase it?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: We got a lot of
    12 those that were given to us. Like people -- we
    13 might have been given it, Patsy might have
    14 bought it, I don't know. I don't think she
    15 bought it either but, it might have been a gift.
    16 MIKE KANE: Do you know where it
    17 normally would have been kept? I mean do you
    18 have like a study -- you do have a study but
    19 most of the books --
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I had drawers by the
    21 bed. Books used to get stuffed in there. We
    22 had books in the study downstairs. You know, we
    23 were -- weren't that well organized that we had
    24 a special place for them. Because I had a bunch
    25 of books in and around my bed area that I either
    0628
    1 had read or was in the process of reading.
    2 MIKE KANE: But this wasn't one of
    3 them?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think I was
    5 reading it at the time, no.
    6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Do you remember
    7 what books your wife may have read around that
    8 time or before? Was she a big reader?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: She wasn't really a
    10 big reader. She would hit the bed, she would
    11 fall asleep. I usually read in bed. She wasn't
    12 a real big reader.
    13 MIKE KANE: Did -- the occasions
    14 that she did read books, what kinds?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, you know, I
    16 don't know if I could tell you one brook she's
    17 read.
    18 MIKE KANE: But was she a library
    19 person, would she go to the library?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Not much. We would
    21 take the kids to the library but --
    22 MIKE KANE: She pick up a book when
    23 she would take the kids?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, no, probably
    25 not.
    0629
    1 MIKE KANE: Okay. What about "Mind
    2 Hunter", John Douglas's book was there in the
    3 house, had you purchased that?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No. It was there in
    5 '96? Interesting.
    6 MIKE KANE: Was it interesting?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I never never heard
    8 of John Douglas or that book before.
    9 MIKE KANE: So you never read that?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I bought one of
    11 his books the next summer, his newer book.
    12 MIKE KANE: Did you ever read any
    13 Stephen King stuff?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I had. But it
    15 was too freaky. You know, I read some of it,
    16 and --
    17 MIKE KANE: Which one, any.
    18 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, the -- I
    20 remember the one about the clown that came out
    21 in (INAUDIBLE) something like that that was
    22 probably the last one I read, because it was
    23 pretty bizarre. Some of his earlier books
    24 weren't quite so sick. There was one about "Pet
    25 Semetary", I read that book.
    0630
    1 MIKE KANE: Was this a long time
    2 ago?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    4 MIKE KANE: Anything more recent?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: No, as I say, I
    6 don't care for his style anymore. It's a little
    7 over the edge.
    8 MIKE KANE: All right. This other
    9 book, "Campfire Stories"?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Vaguely.
    11 MIKE KANE: Was that yours?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: It was the kids'.
    13 If it was a kind of a kids' story book?
    14 Something that goes bump in the night or
    15 something like that.
    16 MIKE KANE: No, some of them didn't
    17 seem to be, would have scared the heck out of my
    18 kids.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids like
    20 scary stories, JonBenet used to ask me to tell
    21 her a scary story, I tried to make something up,
    22 you know.
    23 MIKE KANE: Okay, so?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know, they
    25 like to hear scary stories.
    0631
    1 MIKE KANE: All right. Okay. How
    2 about -- James Dobson, you heard of him?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: We met with
    4 them, -- I met with him and his staff that
    5 spring.
    6 MIKE KANE: After?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: After.
    8 MIKE KANE: How about before?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: I think might have
    10 one of his books. I don't know which one but, I
    11 forget, if you told us some names I might
    12 remember.
    13 MIKE KANE: "What Wives Wish Their
    14 Husbands Knew About Women"?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall that
    16 one but.
    17 MIKE KANE: "Why Johnny Can't Tell
    18 Right From Wrong"?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
    20 MIKE KANE: There any other, that
    21 kind of Christian psychologist type books that
    22 you were into or your wife was into?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not that I can
    24 remember.
    25 MIKE KANE: Okay. Did you ever
    0632
    1 hear of the book "Day After Tomorrow"?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Doesn't ring a
    3 bell.
    4 MIKE KANE: Okay. I talked a
    5 little bit about movies, you said "Animal House"
    6 you have seen four or five times. You have
    7 never seen "Ransom", never seen "Speed"?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: "Speed" only
    9 sitting in an airline seat.
    10 LOU SMIT: (MULTIPLE
    11 SPEAKERS).
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    13 MIKE KANE: I guess I already asked
    14 you about "Dirty Harry". You talked about, when
    15 you had the theater, theater installed, you had
    16 a different taste in movies, and I don't know
    17 that I followed up on that. What, you said you
    18 liked adventure, Indiana Jones type stuff, and
    19 you said but the kids were different and Patsy
    20 was different. What did the kids like?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, the kids liked
    22 kids' movies. Patsy, gosh, I don't know,
    23 she -- you know, I would come home, like
    24 sometimes I come home with these older movies
    25 that were kind of semiclassic movies, but...
    0633
    1 MIKE KANE: When you say come
    2 around.
    3 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, she --
    5 MIKE KANE: Patsy --
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: She always fell
    7 asleep so it wasn't an issue for long, but.
    8 MIKE KANE: Where did you grab
    9 there down in --
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, Blockbuster,
    11 on -- well, Blockbuster on 28th usually where I
    12 went.
    13 MIKE KANE: Okay, used to be a
    14 video store at Baseline and March. Still there.
    15 Do you remember going there?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think I ever
    17 went there. But.
    18 MIKE KANE: Have you had any
    19 inclinations since this talked about how you
    20 have done some of your own research about this.
    21 I was surprised you haven't gone back to see
    22 "Dirty Harry".
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Why?
    24 MIKE KANE: I thought you were
    25 looking for clues.
    0634
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know, what's
    2 the clue in "Dirty Harry"?
    3 MIKE KANE: Well some of the
    4 language out of there?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought --
    6 MIKE KANE: The dog, talking to the
    7 dog. Be arrested, you're going to need it, that
    8 kind of stuff. That's were the fliers that were
    9 put out?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't do
    11 those. In fact, I don't know I even saw them.
    12 I don't like to watch any movie now that has
    13 anything to do with violence, children, I mean.
    14 MIKE KANE: I mean watch it on
    15 entertainment about --
    16 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it would be hard
    18 for me to watch frankly. I am very careful with
    19 what movies we do watch. I haven't been to see
    20 "Titanic". I know it's going to be a sad movie
    21 and I don't want to deal with that.
    22 MIKE KANE: If you had a
    23 15-year-old.
    24 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I heard about
    0635
    1 it.
    2 MIKE KANE: How it was discovered,
    3 teen --
    4 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    5 LOU SMIT: Could I ask a quick
    6 question. You know, one time a while back we
    7 were talking about the posters and stuff that
    8 was sent out. There was something in regards to
    9 a poster being placed in a mall, and then your
    10 picture being placed on this poster as being a
    11 wanted poster, do you remember anything about
    12 that?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Somebody told me
    14 about that. Yeah.
    15 LOU SMIT: The person that
    16 placed those posters, I heard someplace
    17 that maybe he may have lived in the
    18 neighborhood, did you ever hear anything
    19 like that?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    21 LOU SMIT: Okay. It was
    22 just --
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: The wanted,
    24 put my face on it?
    25 LOU SMIT: Yeah?
    0636
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, no I didn't.
    2 LOU SMIT: Somehow I had
    3 heard that the house at the end of the
    4 block, there was a fellow lived in there?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: In the Baseline
    6 end or the other end?
    7 LOU SMIT: On the Baseline
    8 end.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: That was a
    10 house on our side of the street was rented
    11 by students.
    12 LOU SMIT: Right, and somehow
    13 I heard, and I didn't know where I heard
    14 this from, I don't know if I heard it over
    15 the Internet or heard something, that
    16 maybe the fellow that placed those posters
    17 in the mall could have somehow lived in
    18 that house. This was just an ironic
    19 thing, but I wanted to throw that in.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Wasn't there
    21 something about that house that came out?
    22 Does that ring a bell?
    23 BRYAN MORGAN: If you know, I
    24 don't know.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, the
    0637
    1 house --
    2 LOU SMIT: 715?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Baseline and
    4 15th. On our side of the street.
    5 LOU SMIT: Right there
    6 (indicating).
    7 BRYAN MORGAN: Do you
    8 remember anything like that?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.
    10 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Something rings a
    12 bell but I -- I don't remember.
    13 LOU SMIT: Okay. It was
    14 just a thought I had. Go ahead, continue.
    15 The poster rang that.
    16 MIKE KANE: Do you have a favorite
    17 passages out of the Bible?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, hum, I didn't
    19 really have a favorite passage. I have been
    20 studying Philippian with a friend of mine.
    21 There is a passage in there that he said you
    22 need to memorize this, and I can't quote it
    23 because I haven't memorized it yet, but. I
    24 don't -- I couldn't quote you a favorite
    25 passage out of the bible, sorry to say but --
    0638
    1 MIKE KANE: Yesterday you mentioned
    2 about Father Rol, that he -- the healing
    3 service.
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Hum.
    5 MIKE KANE: During Patsy's cancer,
    6 did you get involved in any other type of faith
    7 healing, programs?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, no. Prayed a
    9 lot but we didn't --
    10 MIKE KANE: Did you have like tent
    11 revivals?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    13 MIKE KANE: Like hands, Oral
    14 Roberts type stuff?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't think
    16 so.
    17 MIKE KANE: Okay. I notice I am
    18 really taking a long time here but it's really
    19 important for us to get to know you, and I do
    20 appreciate the fact that you have been real
    21 patient. You have -- have you ever thought
    22 about suicide?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    24 MIKE KANE: Before JonBenet's
    25 death?
    0639
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    2 MIKE KANE: About how Beth?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall -- I
    4 have -- when I was going through a divorce,
    5 suicide's an easy way out, kind of the
    6 rationalize I come to. You know, it's not fair
    7 to people that love you and are around you, but
    8 boy, when you're down big time that's boy, you
    9 think just check out of here. And I remember
    10 one night thinking about that when I was -- not
    11 that I did anything about it, but I was at that
    12 point in despair when he was going through my
    13 divorce.
    14 I don't remember with Beth. I mean
    15 I was -- it was -- that was a huge loss for
    16 me. And (INAUDIBLE) on medication, and it took
    17 me years to get through that. I couldn't drive
    18 home from work without crying for a long time,
    19 because I was by myself, and I had time to think
    20 and it was very difficult to take a long trip,
    21 look at the back of an empty seat. So it took a
    22 long time to get me -- to get past that where I
    23 could think of Beth and smile. And think of
    24 happy things. But.
    25 MIKE KANE: Have you recently been
    0640
    1 thinking these thoughts?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no. Certainly
    3 something you think when you're so far down
    4 after something like this, it looks like the
    5 only relief, but then -- the reason that Patsy
    6 and I come through this and have come through is
    7 because we have Burke, Melinda and John Andrew.
    8 If we didn't have other children, we probably
    9 would have checked out a long time ago. What's
    10 the point.
    11 MIKE KANE: Okay. Has Mrs. Ramsey
    12 ever come through this, been on Prozac
    13 (INAUDIBLE) I mean which states of depression
    14 trigger or was it just to cope?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: You mean since
    16 JonBenet's death? No, she never -- we talked
    17 about that. I mean we never talked about it
    18 with each other but, it wouldn't surprise me if,
    19 you know, deep down in her thoughts that -- (Mr.
    20 Ramsey is banging on the table as he speaks,
    21 making it difficult to understand).
    22 MIKE KANE: A lot of these
    23 questions I have already asked. Oh, have you
    24 ever had any history of anxiety disorders or
    25 panic attacks or things like that?
    0641
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I know of.
    2 I mean I have always felt like I am kind of a
    3 worrier and anxious about the future but --
    4 MIKE KANE: But not abnormal?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think.
    6 MIKE KANE: No history of obsessive
    7 type behavior or dwelling on things obsessively?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    9 MIKE KANE: You don't recall any
    10 events of anything like that?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I feel like my
    12 memory is a lot worse now than it used to be,
    13 but no.
    14 MIKE KANE: All right. Have you
    15 ever had any disorder anything like that?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    17 MIKE KANE: Mrs. Ramsey, to your
    18 knowledge?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    20 MIKE KANE: Do you have any
    21 recurrent nightmares about all this?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I had nightmares
    23 for a while. Of course, I can't remember, yeah
    24 I did for a while. But I haven't recently.
    25 MIKE KANE: You don't have any
    0642
    1 recollection of what they might have been?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    3 MIKE KANE: All I can remember one
    4 dream where I was holding JonBenet and we were
    5 playing and everything was okay, and then I
    6 couldn't figure out if I was dreaming or not.
    7 You know, it just -- I mean of course when you
    8 wake up, it's a pretty big downer.
    9 MIKE KANE: Have you ever had an
    10 incident of sleepwalking?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    12 MIKE KANE: Has Mrs. Ramsey?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no.
    14 MIKE KANE: She gets up during the
    15 night, she says she hears you; do you hear her?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: She does now once in
    17 awhile. She didn't used to the all, but she
    18 gets up. Seems like recently, once a night to
    19 use the bathroom.
    20 MIKE KANE: Do you remember the day
    21 after this happened, being on the phone talking
    22 to someone about getting your golf clubs?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Absolutely not.
    24 MIKE KANE: Okay. From what I have
    25 read, JonBenet had an injury at one time to her
    0643
    1 face. What do you know about that?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Burke was up at
    3 the lake and Burke was in the yard swinging a
    4 golf club, and she walked up either in front of
    5 him or behind him, I was not there, and she got
    6 clobbered. It was a pure accident.
    7 MIKE KANE: Where did you hear
    8 about that?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, Patsy called me.
    10 MIKE KANE: You were out of town?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I was -- she
    12 was at the lake, I might have been in Boulder, I
    13 don't remember. I was not there.
    14 MIKE KANE: I guess this was
    15 another -- Burke went to school after this. Had
    16 a black eye. Do you know anything about that?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, he got --
    18 there's a picture of him in his baseball uniform
    19 with a real shiner and he had gotten a black eye
    20 playing baseball. He was a fielder and "I got
    21 it, I got, I got it", clunk.
    22 MIKE KANE: Was it during a game?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    24 MIKE KANE: As part of --
    25 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    0644
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, it was part of
    2 the league he was in, a practice or a game.
    3 MIKE KANE: You weren't there?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    5 MIKE KANE: Where did you hear
    6 about it?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy told me
    8 about it.
    9 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: But he got conked
    11 by a because ball. It should have been in the
    12 glove but he missed it.
    13 MIKE KANE: You never heard it was
    14 Patsy that threw the ball?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    16 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: It wasn't. Never
    18 heard that. It wasn't her; it was a fly ball.
    19 MIKE KANE: Fly ball? We all do
    20 that.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    22 MIKE KANE: All right. Look at
    23 this, I'm just going through this stuff here.
    24 The morning of the 26th, after the police were
    25 called, the Whites and Fernies were called, was
    0645
    1 that right away, were you there when they were
    2 called?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I vaguely remember
    4 Patsy saying "come over, come over", but I
    5 didn't know she was calling.
    6 MIKE KANE: You didn't have a
    7 discussion with her about --
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    9 MIKE KANE: -- you know, call --
    10 why did she call those folks?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I think she just
    12 wanted help. From friends. Barbara Fernie and
    13 her were good buddies, she and Priscilla were
    14 good friends. I think she was just reaching out
    15 for any help she could gather.
    16 MIKE KANE: Okay. But you hadn't
    17 discussed with her why?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
    19 MIKE KANE: In looking back on it,
    20 is there anything -- I mean obviously this was
    21 a scene where there was a lot of trace evidence
    22 and things like that and more people come in, it
    23 was more confusing, contamination and that kind
    24 of stuff. Do you have any discussions with her
    25 about that, about geez, wish all these folks
    0646
    1 hadn't been there?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well yeah, in
    3 retrospect, we wished we had followed --
    4 MIKE KANE: I mean have you talked
    5 to Mrs. Ramsey about that in retrospect?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Not really.
    7 MIKE KANE: Okay. You mentioned
    8 yesterday that when she was on the phone, 911
    9 call, that she was having a hard time
    10 communicating the seriousness of it or something
    11 like that, I can't remember?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I just remember her
    13 saying that. I mean I didn't hear the other
    14 side of the conversation, so I remember her
    15 saying, you know, she felt like it took forever
    16 to --
    17 MIKE KANE: Okay, was this after,
    18 right after she got off the phone or later on or
    19 what?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Later on, yeah.
    21 I don't remember.
    22 MIKE KANE: Were you listening, I
    23 mean, do you remember hearing her on the phone?
    24 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember her
    0647
    1 screaming into the phone, but I don't remember
    2 really what she was saying or anything.
    3 MIKE KANE: And you know these are
    4 recorded, 911 calls are always recorded. Have
    5 you heard the recording?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    7 MIKE KANE: All right. Do you know
    8 whether she hung up right away, after she
    9 stopped talking?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I am sure she did,
    11 but I don't -- I don't remember specifically
    12 that.
    13 MIKE KANE: Do you remember what
    14 conversation you had immediately after she
    15 stopped talking on the phone?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    17 MIKE KANE: Could anybody else have
    18 been there?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    20 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Just Patsy and I.
    22 MIKE KANE: All right. Um, you
    23 have been to Florida, I am sure?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    25 MIKE KANE: Have you ever been to
    0648
    1 Coral Gables?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: We were in Coral
    3 Gables for the, as a guest of Sun Microsystems
    4 for the Superbowl that was played in Miami.
    5 They lost. '93, '94, something back in there.
    6 MIKE KANE: Did you ever hear of
    7 Spy World?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that came up,
    9 and I couldn't remember for sure the name, but I
    10 said you know, one of the questions that came up
    11 was a stun gun thing, and I know fundamentally
    12 what they are. I don't know that I could draw
    13 one for you, but I know what they are. And I
    14 was curious where you buy one, where would
    15 somebody buy something like that. Somebody said
    16 spy shop.
    17 We were in Coral Gables and I told
    18 these guys, I said -- we were in Coral Gables
    19 and we were talking about the street and there
    20 was this spy shop that we went into and I was
    21 curious about if there was a device that you
    22 could buy that you could figure out if your
    23 phones were tapped. That had been a big concern
    24 about gee, there is a lot of stuff going on in
    25 our business, and gee what, you know, what if we
    0649
    1 are naive and somebody has tapped our phone and
    2 really, that could be very damaging to us in
    3 other negotiations and so forth.
    4 So I went in there specifically
    5 asking is there a device like that you can buy
    6 and basically the answer I got was no, that's
    7 pretty tough to do but do, but here's all the
    8 other stuff you can do, and he showed us how you
    9 can put bugs in. It's easy to bug something,
    10 pretty difficult to find the bug is kind of what
    11 I came out of that. It actually made me more
    12 worried about what I was worried about.
    13 But he gave us a video and said
    14 here's a catalog of our stuff and we threw it in
    15 our suitcase, we never looked at it, threw it in
    16 a drawer, sat there for years. I don't remember
    17 when that Superbowl was.
    18 LOU SMIT: John, who is we?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy and I.
    20 LOU SMIT: Into the store?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, Patsy and I
    22 went with, Patsy and I were just together.
    23 LOU SMIT: Anybody else with
    24 you?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think
    0650
    1 so.
    2 LOU SMIT: You were with the,
    3 what's the name of the --
    4 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Sun
    6 Microsystems was the host, and they had
    7 invited us to the Superbowl game that year
    8 and they put us in a hotel in Coral
    9 Gables.
    10 LOU SMIT: So it was just you
    11 and Patsy walking together and you just
    12 walked by the store?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I am pretty sure it
    14 was just us; yeah, I am sure it was.
    15 LOU SMIT: Do you know who
    16 else you might have been down there with
    17 or that you visited with, because we may
    18 want to talk with these people.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, there's
    20 some of the people from Sun Microsystems.
    21 A guy named Joe Womack. Stylvan
    22 (phonetic) he was there. I am sure
    23 (inaudible name). What's his name, Joe
    24 Roebuck. He's one of the top people at
    25 Sun Microsystems. He was there, we spent
    0651
    1 some time with him. There was a group of
    2 people, probably 60 people were invited.
    3 LOU SMIT: Okay, go ahead.
    4 Continue?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: But anyway on
    6 that, I mean because we talked about that in
    7 first of all, I don't know what was on that tape
    8 because we hadn't looked at it. I believe the
    9 only reason it didn't tossed into the
    10 wastebasket is it made into the drawer first.
    11 (INAUDIBLE).
    12 MIKE KANE: So you never made any
    13 purchases there?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    15 MIKE KANE: You were down there
    16 later on?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    18 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) whatever?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    20 MIKE KANE: Did you ever purchase
    21 any other type of security, personal security or
    22 you know, that kind of genre of --
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
    24 MIKE KANE: -- product line?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
    0652
    1 MIKE KANE: -- from them or anybody
    2 else?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think
    4 so. Not that I remember.
    5 MIKE KANE: All right. What did
    6 you know at the time I guess Lou talked to you
    7 last July about stun guns and what did you know
    8 about them at the time?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: I just knew they
    10 were an electrical device that emitted a high
    11 voltage, low current probably, enough to stop
    12 somebody but not kill 'em.
    13 MIKE KANE: Have you since that
    14 time learned any more about them or done any
    15 research into them or made inquiries about them
    16 or --
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I haven't.
    18 MIKE KANE: -- looked to see, I
    19 think one of the questions Lou asked you was any
    20 of your friends or anybody --
    21 JOHN RAMSEY:
    22 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    23 MIKE KANE: Yes, have you followed
    24 up on any of that -- I think you might have
    25 even mentioned Priscilla or (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)?
    0653
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: That was just
    2 speculation. To me it was, I mean, I didn't
    3 know how big they are, but it sounded like
    4 something that a woman may have in her purse for
    5 personal protection. And the people we knew,
    6 Priscilla being from California, and kind of --
    7 probably more -- she came from an area where
    8 you have security issues and so forth. Might
    9 have -- you know, if anybody was going to have
    10 one, it might be somebody like her. I
    11 absolutely don't ever remember her having one.
    12 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    13 MIKE KANE: You haven't found any
    14 other associates or acquaintances or people
    15 that --
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I haven't.
    17 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    18 LOU SMIT: Could I ask a little
    19 bit?
    20 MIKE KANE: Sure.
    21 LOU SMIT: We always talk
    22 about clues, now there has been a lot of
    23 discussion, was it a stun gun or wasn't it
    24 a stun gun and there is probably reasons
    25 for everything on this. But if it is a
    0654
    1 clue, that's something again that points
    2 us at a killer, okay, and that's why I
    3 think it's really important that all of us
    4 work together on that. I don't know if
    5 you use your resources or anything on
    6 this. This is really important.
    7 If our guy or gal or whatever
    8 it was used a stun gun. I said that once
    9 before, and somehow whether or not that's
    10 important or not. Stun gun, if a person
    11 uses a stun gun in the commission of this
    12 particular crime it really tells a lot
    13 about the mental aspects of this person.
    14 A stun gun is something that you or anyone
    15 else would probably know if a person had a
    16 stun gun.
    17 John, if you had a stun gun,
    18 somebody would know that you had that. Or
    19 if anybody else, if Fleet White had a stun
    20 gun, somebody would see that. My
    21 estimation on this case, and somehow I
    22 don't know, maybe I have been is if that's
    23 advertized some way, and I don't know if
    24 we are ever going to be able do that, or
    25 maybe we ought to have a lot of careful
    0655
    1 consideration before that's done, because
    2 I could throw it off on a wrong track,
    3 somebody could see some kook with a stun
    4 gun, so that's why I kind of pushed that a
    5 little bit. And that's why I would like
    6 to you think about that a little bit.
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Believe me, I
    8 thought about it hard. And I mean, I could
    9 speculate as to who might, but I have never --
    10 never talked to anybody that had one or known
    11 anybody to have one.
    12 LOU SMIT: Because the
    13 clues, the cord, the tape, the stun gun,
    14 its got to point that somebody may --.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. On a
    16 scale one to ten, how certain are you that
    17 that was involved, a stun gun was
    18 involved?
    19 LOU SMIT: Personally? Other
    20 people don't think it's quite that high.
    21 It's really hard to determine different
    22 things, but just from what we know, and I
    23 won't get into all the things on that, it
    24 very consistent with that, some things
    25 have to be explained. Now whatever
    0656
    1 follows or going to be done on this from
    2 this time on, I don't know exactly. But
    3 again --
    4 DAVID WILLIAMS: Could I say
    5 one thing. This Simons, photographer, he
    6 has a lot of paramilitary type items, bows
    7 and arrows, hunting knives, things along
    8 those lines.
    9 LOU SMIT: Okay, that's good
    10 to know.
    11 DAVID WILLIAMS: He never,
    12 never did we learn anything about stun
    13 gun. But he has bows and arrows and
    14 hunting knives, collections of those
    15 types. Paramilitary kinds of things.
    16 BRYAN MORGAN: Lou, if you
    17 will recall at the time that you asked
    18 John and Patsy and John Andrew, you
    19 requested to keep it quiet.
    20 LOU SMIT: For obvious
    21 reason.
    22 BRYAN MORGAN: And we did.
    23 So we are completely take your judgment on
    24 should it be advertized or not but we did,
    25 and it was heartbreaking to us when it was
    0657
    1 leaked.
    2 MIKE KANE: Well, you know,
    3 on that, I don't know. I mean I think
    4 that there was a lot of investigation. It
    5 was done and the Boulder police started
    6 asking a lot of people if they had or if
    7 they knew of, so I don't know if it was
    8 necessarily leaked. If it was that you
    9 start asking those questions and everybody
    10 starts to say wait a second, there is a
    11 stun gun.
    12 BRYAN MORGAN: The disturbing
    13 thing to us about that is that the people
    14 that were asked that talked to us about
    15 it, said they were never told to keep
    16 their mouth shut. Wasn't even mentioned
    17 by the police who talked with them,
    18 "please keep this quiet", as you did to
    19 us, that was really wrong .
    20 But enough, I don't want to
    21 cast any more rocks. Obviously your
    22 judgment controls. If you want to put it
    23 up on a billboard.
    24 LOU SMIT: The cat's out of
    25 the bag now, because if we go in the wrong
    0658
    1 direction on that we can go in the wrong
    2 direction. So people that make those type
    3 of decisions have to make them.
    4 MIKE KANE: And I would say
    5 that it's going to be, it's the kind of
    6 thing that first of all you have to be
    7 sure that that's, that a stun gun was used
    8 because like you said, if it's not, and
    9 you start doing that, you're going to go
    10 down a path that has a dead end.
    11 BRYAN MORGAN: How could you
    12 be sure? There is a lot of opinion out
    13 there.
    14 MIKE KANE: We will have to
    15 talk about that.
    16 LOU SMIT: There is a lot
    17 of things, it's kind of a delicate thing
    18 to talk about things like that. I think
    19 it takes a little bit more discussion, a
    20 little more thought before we come up with
    21 things that we should do.
    22 BRYAN MORGAN: Anything that
    23 we can do to help on the comments that
    24 were just made or on this or any other
    25 issue, call, okay. Any time. You guys
    0659
    1 don't have to --
    2 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: It would be nice to
    4 have the information just to be sure that there
    5 was --
    6 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    7 BRYAN MORGAN: I really believe as
    8 of this point, we have gotten probably as many
    9 crack leads as anybody else has, and we do
    10 perform a filter screen, because some of these
    11 (INAUDIBLE) and we don't want police wasting
    12 their time on people who take a lot of these
    13 crack pots, but short of that neglect that we
    14 thought we had came to us, whether or not we
    15 thought anyone knew about it or read. I think
    16 we have made sure that it got an answer when
    17 Peter, Alex or David to you or others I will
    18 double-check that and we will continue to do it.
    19 LOU SMIT: Sometime even
    20 innocuous leads, in other words you got a
    21 lot of these calls and get a lot of tips
    22 in. Maybe for instance, just to get into
    23 that just a tad, I would like to show a
    24 photograph here. This is a photograph of
    25 a stun gun. Now, is this the type of stun
    0660
    1 gun, we don't know positively for sure.
    2 We do know that there are different kinds,
    3 all kinds, different kinds of stun guns,
    4 and somehow, and we have indicators of at
    5 least which ones to eliminate. Some of
    6 them.
    7 Now, I would like just to
    8 take a look at this photograph,
    9 photographs 7-1 through 7-6.
    10 DAVID WILLIAMS: Could I ask
    11 a question. Is there a standard dimension
    12 of how far the probes are apart --
    13 LOU SMIT: No, and that's why
    14 you can narrow things down a little more
    15 to certain types. This one is an Air
    16 Taser. Have you ever heard of that name
    17 before?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No, I have
    19 never even seen this. (INAUDIBLE).
    20 BRYAN MORGAN: I take it that's one
    21 of the once that you have not been able to
    22 eliminate.
    23 LOU SMIT: Right.
    24 BRYAN MORGAN: And that's the name
    25 of the brand?
    0661
    1 LOU SMIT: Right, and with this
    2 particular brand, it requires a registration
    3 also. And I have picked up some names.
    4 VOICE: I was going to ask about
    5 registration.
    6 LOU SMIT: A lot of them aren't
    7 registered.
    8 DAVID WILLIAMS: Are these the ones
    9 that the probes shoot out?
    10 LOU SMIT: Yes, but it also
    11 has a mechanism whereby you don't have to
    12 use that.
    13 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    14 LOU SMIT: John, as long as
    15 we are in this, and I know it's going to
    16 take a little bit of time, but I would
    17 like you to look through a list of people
    18 that I have that have purchased these in
    19 Colorado, so if any name pops out at you,
    20 please let me know.
    21 BRYAN MORGAN: It would be
    22 very awkward for us to -- (INAUDIBLE).
    23 LOU SMIT: Let's discuss it
    24 with people that make those decisions.
    25 DAVID WILLIAMS: I would
    0662
    1 love adding those names to our --
    2 BRYAN MORGAN: If we got it
    3 we would absolutely guarantee that it --
    4 LOU SMIT: This may be a
    5 confidential list.
    6 BRYAN MORGAN: Understood. I
    7 will simply say that if we got it we would
    8 absolutely guarantee it doesn't get
    9 anyplace except for me and John and Patsy
    10 for us to run it against names we --
    11 LOU SMIT: I will discuss
    12 that.
    13 BRYAN MORGAN: Fine.
    14 LOU SMIT: In fact, Mr.
    15 Morgan, the reason I have this, is I have
    16 a cover letter here that does say,
    17 "accordingly, I must ask that you preserve
    18 the privacy of this list from public
    19 disclosure."
    20 BRYAN MORGAN: Understood.
    21 (INAUDIBLE).
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: The only other
    23 kind, and this is horrible to throw out,
    24 the only thing that I know that has, likes
    25 guns and stuff like that is Jay Arotski
    0663
    1 (phonetic). (INAUDIBLE), I know that has
    2 guns. He likes to collect those things.
    3 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: A guy that worked
    5 for us, Ken Bishop, I think, Access Graphics.
    6 This says Billington, Colorado, which I don't
    7 remember (INAUDIBLE).
    8 LOU SMIT: By the way, who
    9 did you use -- did you ever have
    10 locksmith work done to your house?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Hum.
    12 BRYAN MORGAN: Let me see that?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, seems like it.
    14 That we had the front door replaced when we were
    15 remodeling. It seems like it. But I couldn't
    16 tell you.
    17 LOU SMIT: Do you remember
    18 the company?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    20 LOU SMIT: Have you ever
    21 heard of Boulder Lock and Key or anything?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: No, that name rings
    23 a bell, but I don't know if it's because they
    24 have been in the news or what. But I was going
    25 to say Boulder Lock and Safe, but -- I have a
    0664
    1 list of all the bills I paid when we did our
    2 remodeling.
    3 LOU SMIT: That would be very
    4 helpful.
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay, all the
    6 contractors, all the individual checks, because
    7 I keep track of it. So I have that. We can get
    8 a copy of that to you.
    9 LOU SMIT: I don't mean to dig in
    10 a whole lot into what you say, but I have one
    11 rather real quick list. This is kind of a
    12 county pedophile list, okay. Now, you may or
    13 may not know people on here and we are not
    14 saying that anybody did this, but this is list
    15 of people that has been kind of developed in the
    16 county. Any of those names look familiar,
    17 please let me know, that may have done work for
    18 you or that stick out.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, unfortunately,
    20 not.
    21 BRYAN MORGAN: We make the same
    22 request for that so we can see (INAUDIBLE).
    23 MIKE KANE: That's a public record
    24 and not it's not releasable. (INAUDIBLE).
    25 BRYAN MORGAN: Just helps to be
    0665
    1 able to think. And.
    2 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    3 MIKE KANE: All I am saying there
    4 may be a statutory prohibition.
    5 VOICE: A straight legal
    6 prohibition?
    7 MIKE KANE: Right.
    8 LOU SMIT: Why don't you
    9 continue.
    10 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    11 DAVID WILLIAMS: Did I miss the
    12 list of the pedophiles, the pedophile list?
    13 LOU SMIT: Okay, just take --
    14 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    15 LOU SMIT: You can continue unless
    16 the -- (INAUDIBLE).
    17 BRYAN MORGAN: John, I don't know
    18 why I am thinking of maybe running down
    19 (INAUDIBLE).
    20 MIKE KANE: Is this something we
    21 should know?
    22 BRYAN MORGAN: I will tell you all
    23 I remember, and I don't know what happened.
    24 Sometime well along in the last year, from my
    25 memory, we and by that I think Ellis got a
    0666
    1 letter from someone who said you should know
    2 that having mentioned a male relative of mine is
    3 someone who has an interest in little girls, an
    4 improper interest, and as far as I know was
    5 living in south Boulder last Christmas, and
    6 there was one thing under that piqued our
    7 interest. And I don't even want to say the name
    8 out loud, because I am not sure, but I can find
    9 that piece of correspondence and I will do it.
    10 It may or may not have been the man
    11 is a pedophile, but there was a strong
    12 indication from the letter writer that he or she
    13 was reluctant to do it, because it was a
    14 relative, but that he or she was concerned and I
    15 know we looked into that to some degree. But I
    16 will call that back.
    17 DAVID WILLIAMS: Is Ellis getting
    18 allowed to look at this, do you know?
    19 LOU SMIT: I don't know why
    20 not. If we show it to you, we can show it
    21 to them, as long as it's not copied or
    22 anything.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we got a
    24 call, I wish I could remember.
    25 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    0667
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Maybe a month
    2 and a half or so, Pam got a call and she
    3 called me at about 10 o'clock at night,
    4 all upset and said I just talked to a
    5 woman in, I forget the town, Greeley, I
    6 think, that said she knows who did this,
    7 and she will only talk to you or Patsy.
    8 And we called her. And she wasn't there.
    9 We called and left a message.
    10 And we got in touch with her
    11 like a day later, and it was a housewife
    12 who sounded very normal, and said she was
    13 a long time friend of I think it was one
    14 of the daughters of Linda Hoffman, or in
    15 that family and she said I am absolutely
    16 convinced Mervin Peters (phonetic) is the
    17 killer, we call him Irwin the molester.
    18 We won't leave him alone with Adriana, and
    19 I guess we were hoping for more than a
    20 suspicion, which is all that was. But.
    21 LOU SMIT: Could we get more
    22 information on that, John?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, did we write
    24 that up?
    25 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't remember
    0668
    1 that. But I know -- let's talk with Ellis and
    2 see.
    3 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Because I think I
    5 asked Pam to write up her conversation. We have
    6 -- we will run together what we have.
    7 LOU SMIT: But it was a
    8 woman in Greeley that mentioned that or
    9 called in?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: She called us, she
    11 said -- I remember Patsy saying there is one
    12 other person out there that knows this killer.
    13 And she said I decided I better call but I mean,
    14 it was, it was, she didn't say anything that to
    15 me was conclusive, but it was circumstantial.
    16 You know, Mervin Peters is a bad guy, we called
    17 him Mervin the molester, we won't leave him
    18 alone, he's gone off the deep end, he is doing a
    19 lot of drinking. I just know that's who did it.
    20 And --
    21 BRYAN MORGAN: This is a woman in
    22 Greeley?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I am pretty sure.
    24 Patsy will remember.
    25 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    0669
    1 We debated whether we should call.
    2 We said hell, let's call. She was a very nice
    3 woman, she had a family, she sounded very normal
    4 at the time.
    5 LOU SMIT: I know we are
    6 pushing just a little bit here.
    7 MIKE KANE: Actually I am
    8 pretty close to wrapping up.
    9 BRYAN MORGAN: Let's go
    10 ahead.
    11 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    12 LOU SMIT: I have a lot of
    13 stuff but that's --
    14 BRYAN MORGAN: If you can
    15 finish yours and I am not saying forever,
    16 let's do that. If it's a logical breaking
    17 point, then, I am getting faint.
    18 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    19 MIKE KANE: How well do you
    20 know Dr. Buff?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Just as casual
    22 friends. We met him as JonBenet's physician
    23 initially, they go to our church, his wife Penny
    24 is a real wonderful woman, I mean we, we have
    25 been over to dinner two or three times, I
    0670
    1 suppose, at their house. But he's just a -- we
    2 certainly consider him a friend, but he is not a
    3 close friend. He is an acquaintance.
    4 MIKE KANE: You have never been
    5 treated by him, he was strictly JonBenet's?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, he was
    7 JonBenet's pediatrician.
    8 MIKE KANE: Burke goes also?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    10 MIKE KANE: You don't know Patsy
    11 was ever treated by him for anything?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Not -- not that I
    13 know of. I mean I think he may have prescribed
    14 some medication very early on after this
    15 happened, but only because he was there.
    16 MIKE KANE: Well, there is from
    17 what I understand, he ended up there, he was
    18 called by somebody, that person said that he was
    19 called because Patsy asked that he be called to
    20 get -- because she wanted something to take
    21 after this happened. Do you know about that?
    22 In other words, she asked a person
    23 to call Dr. Buff to get me a prescription.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. I
    25 don't know. I mean, I mean that's conceivable.
    0671
    1 I am not aware of that. That's conceivable.
    2 MIKE KANE: Why would she go to
    3 Dr. Buff for a prescription?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, he was a
    5 family friend, and you know, the only other
    6 doctor, the only other doctor I went to is Peter
    7 Gillian and he was always kind of a hard guy to
    8 get to know. I never felt like I knew him.
    9 Because we -- he just was a doctor. So he's
    10 not somebody, you know, who I would have called.
    11 I don't know, I mean, ask Patsy,
    12 she would know or remember, probably. But
    13 Dr. Buff was there with us in the Fernies' house
    14 as a friend primarily, as a concerned friend,
    15 and you know, if somebody said gee, maybe put
    16 Patsy on medication or he might have said that,
    17 I don't know.
    18 MIKE KANE: Yesterday I threw out
    19 the name Dr. Daaru (phonetic) or Daared,
    20 D-A-A-R-E-D, I think it is.
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: That doesn't ring a
    22 bell. What kind of doctor?
    23 MIKE KANE: He was a family
    24 practitioner.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    0672
    1 MIKE KANE: When Dr. Buff, he was
    2 interviewed, Prime Time or one of those, about
    3 JonBenet's treatment. Did you know that was
    4 going to occur, that he was going to be --
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: No, we didn't.
    6 MIKE KANE: Didn't talk to you?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: No. As a matter of
    8 fact --
    9 MIKE KANE: As a matter of fact
    10 what?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: We were surprised.
    12 We thought that was, that was a Mike Bynum deal?
    13 MIKE KANE: Yes.
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: We just thought they
    15 were talking to Mike. Certainly wasn't aware.
    16 MIKE KANE: So you hadn't had any
    17 discussions ahead of time?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
    19 MIKE KANE: Get any waivers from
    20 you to go on TV and talk about it?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    22 MIKE KANE: All right, he says that
    23 --
    24 BRYAN MORGAN: He didn't.
    25 MIKE KANE: All right. What do you
    0673
    1 think of that, about his going --
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I never saw the
    3 program, so I don't know what he said. But I
    4 know when he has spoken out in support of us,
    5 he's gotten crucified, is my impression. That's
    6 not fair for him as a person. Brilliant guy, a
    7 very good doctor. So I don't know what he said.
    8 So I don't -- I didn't -- I mean I guess my
    9 reaction was gee, it's nice that he felt strong
    10 enough to speak out and support us, but I don't
    11 --
    12 MIKE KANE: Have you heard anybody
    13 say or suggest that he was speaking out in
    14 support of his own interests?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    16 MIKE KANE: The -- he, it said in
    17 that, that he had -- I guess one of the things
    18 that he was asked about on that program was that
    19 there were several instances of vaginitis,
    20 urotract infections and whatever. And that he
    21 had done, he I guess limited vaginal exams.
    22 Were you aware that at the time, I am not saying
    23 that --
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. No.
    25 MIKE KANE: -- that he was speaking
    0674
    1 about it but prior to --
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I wasn't.
    3 MIKE KANE: Did you ever talk to
    4 Patsy about --
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: It was kind of a
    6 mother-daughter thing, right.
    7 MIKE KANE: Okay. Have you heard
    8 about that since?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't
    10 remember why, but I have.
    11 MIKE KANE: Do you know in what
    12 context?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know if
    14 these guys asked me about it or I read it in the
    15 newspaper or something, but that's the extent of
    16 it.
    17 MIKE KANE: Okay. Do you know why
    18 he was -- he was called apparently in the
    19 evening on the 17th of December, three different
    20 times, do you know anything about that, why he
    21 was --
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
    23 MIKE KANE: He has noted in his
    24 records that he was called or his office was
    25 called 6:28, 6:50 and 6:59. Do you know what
    0675
    1 that would have been on the 17th?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not for sure.
    3 Patsy was pretty quick to call for help if she,
    4 you know, if she -- she didn't let medical
    5 problems sit around. She usually just picked up
    6 the phone. She might remember, but I don't.
    7 MIKE KANE: When JonBenet was put
    8 to bed that night, when you carried her
    9 upstairs, your pictures from Christmas Day, she
    10 is wearing a little pink bottom and top. Is
    11 that typical?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, that's what she
    13 got up, I remember her running into her bedroom
    14 with that on Christmas morning.
    15 MIKE KANE: And she wore that for
    16 Christmas on the bicycle?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    18 MIKE KANE: I mean, I have two
    19 daughters and they wear the same, you know,
    20 until it's the end of the week and washing or
    21 whatever. Did she wear that generally
    22 underwear?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.
    24 She had a drawer full of nightgowns, and she
    25 didn't have one nightgown she wore all the time.
    0676
    1 It varied.
    2 MIKE KANE: There was a nightgown
    3 that was found down in the wine cellar?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I have heard about
    5 that.
    6 MIKE KANE: Okay, do you know
    7 anything about that?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    9 MIKE KANE: Was that --
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I had never seen
    11 that. I didn't see it when he was down this.
    12 Sounds very bizarre. I don't know why that
    13 would be there. I mean that room was usually
    14 full of Christmas stuff. It's a nasty room.
    15 Just you didn't go in there.
    16 MIKE KANE: Could have been brought
    17 down in a blanket?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I suppose, I don't
    19 know. I didn't see it at all. As part of the
    20 blanket or anything.
    21 MIKE KANE: You don't remember it
    22 being there or anywhere?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Not at all.
    24 MIKE KANE: Okay. Subsequent to
    25 that, have you talked to Mrs. Ramsey about that,
    0677
    1 what that nightgown was or where it might have
    2 been or?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: No. The only thing
    4 I heard was that she didn't recognize it. Or
    5 wasn't sure she could recognize it, based on the
    6 picture that we had been shown yesterday.
    7 MIKE KANE: So you discussed this
    8 last night with her?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: I think, I think it
    10 came up in a review that we had, I don't
    11 remember. But yeah, we are here to solve the
    12 murder, I mean Patsy, you know, sees something--
    13 MIKE KANE: I am not suggesting
    14 any --
    15 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah but we talked
    17 about it briefly and what caught my attention
    18 was Kayo (phonetic) was there, he heard
    19 something about a nightgown, but I didn't know
    20 where it was found, that's the first time I
    21 heard it was found in the basement, and the fact
    22 that Patsy didn't recognize it I felt was
    23 significant, because she knows stuff like that.
    24 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    25 MIKE KANE: You said that she had a
    0678
    1 drawer full of things so she can wear the same
    2 one every night?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    4 MIKE KANE: Where was that, that
    5 drawer?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was in her
    7 bathroom, I believe, one of the drawers in her
    8 bathroom. Cabinet.
    9 MIKE KANE: These were just like
    10 certain color nightgowns little girls would
    11 wear?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    13 MIKE KANE: Are there any special
    14 ones?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, not some of
    16 them more appropriate for summer and spring,
    17 some of them heavier.
    18 MIKE KANE: Were they like do you
    19 have -- the only reference point I have is that
    20 Christmas morning that pink top and bottom, was
    21 that typical of the wintertime?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, it might have
    23 been. She had, you know, some long nightgowns
    24 that she would wear. I think she had a Beauty
    25 and the Beast one, I remember. But it was
    0679
    1 usually first an issue of warmability, what was
    2 going to keep her warm. And --
    3 MIKE KANE: Yeah. This is a
    4 photograph and it's numbered 3, actually if I
    5 could have that one too. Just for the record,
    6 these are photographs number 2 and number 3 of
    7 JonBenet's bed, and that, there is a pink
    8 nightgown top in there. Does that look like one
    9 that she was wearing Christmas morning?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was kind
    11 of a knit long sleeve, long -- like long
    12 underwear kind of top it looks like.
    13 MIKE KANE: I think it's the same
    14 thing that's pictured in photo number 2?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
    16 MIKE KANE: All right, sort of
    17 looks like.
    18 MIKE KANE: When JonBenet would get
    19 dressed, and maybe you remember specifically on
    20 Christmas morning when the kids got dressed?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I really don't, I
    22 mean all I remember was the pink nightgown,
    23 because I remember her running up to the bed and
    24 then. It's one of few images I have of her.
    25 But she probably wouldn't have gotten dressed
    0680
    1 for breakfast or anything like that it, would
    2 have been after we got through breakfast,
    3 cleaned up. I don't remember whether she was
    4 dressed when I left for the airport or not. She
    5 might have been because we might have gone out
    6 --
    7 MIKE KANE: What time was that?
    8 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was 11, 12,
    10 12:30, maybe in that range. 1 o'clock.
    11 MIKE KANE: Would you have gone to
    12 bathe that morning or she had one Christmas Eve?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: She wouldn't have
    14 gotten one that morning. I remember the suit
    15 for that.
    16 MIKE KANE: I mean after opening
    17 her presents and breakfast and whatever before
    18 getting dressed to go to the Whites?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, she might have
    20 before the Whites. I don't know that she did,
    21 but that wouldn't have been out of the ordinary.
    22 MIKE KANE: What clothes was she
    23 wearing after she got dressed that morning, do
    24 you remember, before she -- subsequent to the
    25 Whites?
    0681
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I really don't
    2 remember. I don't have any picture of that at
    3 all.
    4 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't.
    6 MIKE KANE: And do you know whether
    7 she got herself dressed after, you know, she got
    8 out of her pajamas, would she normally do that
    9 or --
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually I think
    11 Patsy would lay her clothes out. So I don't
    12 know. More often than not, Patsy would lay the
    13 clothes out to get dressed.
    14 MIKE KANE: And from that I guess
    15 she just needed pajamas there?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: JonBenet.
    17 MIKE KANE: JonBenet?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: She would have made
    19 it (INAUDIBLE).
    20 (Papers being rattled).
    21 MIKE KANE: There was no long
    22 hamper or anything?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    24 MIKE KANE:
    25 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    0682
    1 MIKE KANE: Okay. You have heard I
    2 am sure that you had a neighbor I believe that
    3 lived in, is it Melanie Stanton, 738?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Kind of catercorner?
    5 Okay, yeah.
    6 MIKE KANE: 738 across the street
    7 from you. Whose said that she heard a scream?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I heard that a
    9 scream was heard. I assumed it was down here,
    10 so this is, and I saw this when we looked at it,
    11 but I always thought it was from this house, I
    12 don't know why.
    13 MIKE KANE: Did you know Melanie
    14 Stanton?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: We met the woman who
    16 lived there. We think had a son or a daughter,
    17 I think it was a son, but I didn't know her. In
    18 fact, I wouldn't recognize her, I don't think.
    19 MIKE KANE: You haven't talk to
    20 her?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    22 MIKE KANE: At all?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    24 MIKE KANE: So you haven't followed
    25 up on that?
    0683
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know.
    2 Have we?
    3 BRYAN MORGAN: I think we tried to.
    4 MIKE KANE: Do you have any further
    5 information on that?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't. I
    7 mean I also heard somebody heard a grate being
    8 scraped across the pavement.
    9 MIKE KANE: Who is that?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I
    11 just had heard that.
    12 MIKE KANE: Was that a --
    13 (INAUDIBLE)?
    14 DAVID WILLIAMS: I think that came
    15 from the Internet, and I think it's supposed to
    16 be Melanie Stanton's husband and I think that it
    17 was, it was the banging of a grate, and I
    18 believe that its basis comes from a tabloid.
    19 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    20 LOU SMIT: But you haven't
    21 contacted the Stantons at all?
    22 DAVID WILLIAMS: I think we tried.
    23 LOU SMIT: So you were
    24 unsuccessful.
    25 BRYAN MORGAN: I believe so.
    0684
    1 BRYAN MORGAN: We will let
    2 you know, she is one of the people that
    3 wants to talk with us, I think.
    4 DAVID WILLIAMS: But I think
    5 the information originally came from the
    6 Globe, about the scream and the grate, the
    7 metal pounding against cement, something
    8 like that.
    9 LOU SMIT: Can I touch just
    10 a little bit before you move on. It's the
    11 nightgown. JonBenet, did she own a life-
    12 sized Barbie nightgown -- life-sized
    13 Barbie doll?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    15 LOU SMIT: She did, big one?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was about that
    17 tall maybe.
    18 LOU SMIT: Did she used to
    19 dress this Barbie nightgown in any type of
    20 -- I keep saying nightgown, Barbie doll in
    21 any type of clothing?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: She probably did
    23 when she first got it. I don't remember that
    24 she played with it much. I mean I can remember
    25 the thing just sitting in the corner or
    0685
    1 something.
    2 LOU SMIT: Where is the
    3 Barbie doll kept normally, if you could
    4 show us?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, my memory of
    6 is that -- oh, man, I can't find where we are at
    7 here. Where is the second floor? I remember it
    8 kind of sitting against the wall back here in
    9 her room.
    10 LOU SMIT: In her bedroom?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: In her bedroom.
    12 I think that's the last time I remember seeing
    13 it, which might have been, you know, months
    14 before. I don't know.
    15 LOU SMIT: We have heard
    16 that a Barbie nightgown was one of her
    17 favorite nightgowns. What can you tell us
    18 about that?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think she had a
    20 Barbie nightgown, yeah, as I recall. Pink,
    21 maybe.
    22 LOU SMIT: The night you put
    23 her in bed, do you remember anything about
    24 a Barbie nightgown?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: When I put
    0686
    1 her to bed she had on, when I laid her
    2 down in the bed, she had on what she had
    3 worn to the Whites. She had that same
    4 shirt on when I found her.
    5 LOU SMIT: What I am trying
    6 to say, John, is where would that Barbie
    7 nightgown have been?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have either
    9 been in her bathroom drawer here, which a lot of
    10 them were kept.
    11 LOU SMIT: Under the sink?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: By the sink, I
    13 believe. It could have been on the floor or it
    14 would have been in the washing machine. That's
    15 probably only three places it would have been.
    16 LOU SMIT: I would like to
    17 show you photograph number 145, and this
    18 is a photograph of the wine cellar and it
    19 was taken at after the body was found.
    20 But John, I would like you just to take
    21 look at this, and again difficult
    22 photograph, but tell us what you see.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's looking
    24 in the room from the door, I see the blanket
    25 that looks like the one that was around her.
    0687
    1 There is a pink something, pink -- I think
    2 that's the nightgown or.
    3 LOU SMIT: That's what I was
    4 going to inquire about. It is a
    5 nightgown, it is a pink one, it is a
    6 Barbie nightgown?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like
    8 it's a shinier material than I remember.
    9 (INAUDIBLE). That looks more like what I
    10 kind of remember was on the Barbie doll
    11 itself.
    12 LOU SMIT: That one does?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. If I had to
    14 speculate, that looks too shiny, the material,
    15 but it seems to me I remember that Barbie doll
    16 had a shiny pink nightgown thing on it.
    17 LOU SMIT: Why do you think,
    18 John, that that's down here? I mean --
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I don't.
    20 It certainly should not be. I don't
    21 remember seeing it. But I was pretty
    22 focused, I guess, at that time.
    23 LOU SMIT: Again, you had mentioned
    24 the fact that the blanket had been wrapped
    25 around her almost like, what did you describe it
    0688
    1 as?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she looked
    3 very, like someone had very carefully placed her
    4 on the blanket, wrapped the blanket around her
    5 to keep her warm.
    6 LOU SMIT: And then we have a
    7 Barbie or a nightgown. There is just
    8 suggestions that are made to that, and
    9 what's your opinion of that, and what's
    10 your impression?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: God, I can only
    12 imagine it. That that was something very
    13 perverted.
    14 LOU SMIT: That's good
    15 enough. Unless you have other thoughts or
    16 comments on that, John?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: No. The only
    18 thought I had, normally the winter, JonBenet's
    19 nightgowns were cloth and they weren't those
    20 silky, because they weren't very warm. And they
    21 were always a cloth or a flannel kind of
    22 material. That looks like a silky kind of
    23 nightgown, and -- I don't even know she had --
    24 see, my recollection is Barbie nightgown, she
    25 had a lot of these little nightgowns with faces
    0689
    1 on them and stuff, and I kind of remember a
    2 Barbie one, but it was like a cloth nightgown
    3 that had printed, a printed Barbie face on it or
    4 something.
    5 LOU SMIT: And this was more
    6 like the one on the doll?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: That looks more
    8 dressy. That looks like something that might
    9 have been on the doll.
    10 LOU SMIT: Mike, do you have
    11 anything?
    12 MIKE KANE: No.
    13 LOU SMIT: Well then, I think we
    14 can take, just let this grow into that.
    15 (INAUDIBLE).
    16 MIKE KANE: Yesterday you talked
    17 about Patsy, after obviously her surgery, she
    18 had no natural estrogen and couldn't take he
    19 estrogen supplements because of the cancer, you
    20 were worried about that. Was there any other
    21 supplement that she took to counteract the lack
    22 of estrogen?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, not that I
    24 specifically remember. It seems she took a lot
    25 of natural things. She went to a, I think she
    0690
    1 got some counseling on this at NIH when she
    2 left.
    3 MIKE KANE: I think that she
    4 probably would. Were you part of that?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, not, no, no. I
    6 wasn't.
    7 MIKE KANE: Tell you she had to
    8 take certain type of supplements to --
    9 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: As I recall, they
    11 said okay, you're done, bye. She said well,
    12 wait a minute, you know, got to be -- what do I
    13 do now, other take some of this or that, but you
    14 know. I don't remember what it was. She would
    15 remember.
    16 MIKE KANE: All right?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: They pretty much
    18 just said bye, you're done and she pressed to
    19 say okay, wait a minute, there is got to be more
    20 to this than that.
    21 MIKE KANE: Okay. When you saw
    22 JonBenet in longjohns that morning, what did you
    23 think? It wasn't her pajamas.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: On the morning I
    25 found her?
    0691
    1 MIKE KANE: Yes. (INAUDIBLE.)
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember she had
    3 the top on, she had worn to bed, that she had
    4 worn when I laid her down. Her lower body was
    5 clothed, but I don't remember, seems like it was
    6 a white pull-up.
    7 MIKE KANE: Like longjohn type?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Like longjohns,
    9 right.
    10 MIKE KANE: Not pajamas?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    12 MIKE KANE: Think about that.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they were like
    14 white tights or something. As I remember. And
    15 she looked normally dressed. She looked --
    16 MIKE KANE: Was she -- you know
    17 what longjohns are?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    19 MIKE KANE: What are under --
    20 (INAUDIBLE)?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, they might
    22 have been, I am sure, you know, I mean you have
    23 them, but I mean my memory of it is they were
    24 white, she had it looked like she had underwear
    25 on under those. She looked normal in that
    0692
    1 respect. I didn't see any -- clothes weren't
    2 askew.
    3 MIKE KANE: Without dragging out
    4 photographs or anything like that, but would she
    5 normally have, when Patsy put her pajamas on put
    6 a pair of long underwear on her?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: She might have. I
    8 mean, it was, you know, it was winter. Usually
    9 when she conks out like that, before she gets to
    10 bed, we get her comfortable, but we don't get
    11 her nightgown on her all the time. So like
    12 Patsy obviously left that shirt on. I don't
    13 remember if she had those tights on or the
    14 longjohns on under her black pants. Patsy just
    15 took the black pants off and put her bed or she
    16 pulled those on, but...
    17 MIKE KANE: What I am getting at,
    18 the person that did this had put her in those.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh.
    20 MIKE KANE: I mean would those be
    21 unusual for her to be wearing --
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they wouldn't.
    23 MIKE KANE: -- longjohns?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: It's with the feet?
    25 MIKE KANE: I am not talking pajama
    0693
    1 bottoms, I am talking about longjohns that are
    2 just, you know, like the proverbial flap on
    3 back. I am not saying they had it, they had a
    4 flap, but those kind of --
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: It wouldn't be, no,
    6 it would be unusual for her to have those on.
    7 Leggings, kind of just a regular nightgown. She
    8 didn't always wear a nightgown to bed. If she
    9 was awake when she went to bed, she got into a
    10 nightgown and brushed her teeth, got into bed.
    11 But if she was asleep, we usually just tried to
    12 make her comfortable, make sure she was warm.
    13 Didn't go into the trouble of getting her into a
    14 nightgown, necessarily. Sometimes she had a tee
    15 shirt on.
    16 MIKE KANE: Pajama bottom?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Pajama bottoms,
    18 maybe, yes.
    19 MIKE KANE: All right. Are there
    20 any big secrets you kept from Patsy?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No. Not that I
    22 can think of.
    23 MIKE KANE: Do you think there was
    24 any big secrets she ever kept from you?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No. I doubt
    0694
    1 that very much.
    2 MIKE KANE: Why? Why is that?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, you live with
    4 somebody for 18 years, it's pretty hard to keep
    5 secrets for one thing, I guess. I don't know
    6 what a big secret is but --
    7 MIKE KANE: How did you keep the
    8 Gloria Williams secret from Cindy?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that was
    10 ultimately not possible, obviously.
    11 MIKE KANE: But I think you said
    12 two years?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No. We were
    14 divorced after two years, I think. But I think
    15 that affair probably went on for eight months or
    16 a year maybe. Before it exploded.
    17 MIKE KANE: Before she found out
    18 about it?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    20 MIKE KANE: But you were able to
    21 maintain it for that period of time?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: (Nodding).
    23 MIKE KANE: We talked yesterday
    24 about I think you said it wasn't a problem that
    25 you were aware of, and there has been a lot of
    0695
    1 publicity about that?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: It was total
    3 nonsense, but ask the question.
    4 MIKE KANE: Okay. Did you ever
    5 have discussions -- you said before it never
    6 came up in discussions with Patsy. What about
    7 subsequently with all the publicity about it?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Just I mean it
    9 was one of those ridiculous tabloid pieces of
    10 data that was, you know, served.
    11 MIKE KANE: Would it be a big
    12 surprise to find out if that was in fact the
    13 case, that you did have a problem with it?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY:
    15 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I mean all my
    17 children wet the bed. It was not a big deal.
    18 MIKE KANE: But it would be a
    19 surprise to you if you found out that in fact it
    20 was more of a regular occurrence than what you
    21 know right now?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably just no,
    23 I mean, if it was every night, I didn't know
    24 that. But. No, just part of raising a child.
    25 MIKE KANE: I mean but the fact
    0696
    1 that you didn't know about -- I am not talking
    2 about would it be a surprise that she did it.
    3 But the fact that say a couple of times a week,
    4 she wet the bed, that seems to be a lot more
    5 than what you were aware of. Would you be
    6 surprised if you found out it was more than what
    7 you were aware of?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    9 MIKE KANE: And why is that?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Because it was a,
    11 it's a minor, it's a nonissue. You know, if she
    12 was wetting her bed every night when she was 11
    13 years old, I think we have a problem we need to
    14 look into medically, but it just wasn't an
    15 issue. It wasn't a big deal.
    16 MIKE KANE: You said that you were
    17 aware that there was plastic, her mattress was
    18 wrapped in plastic. Did you put that on there?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.
    20 Probably did, but I don't remember.
    21 MIKE KANE: You said that you
    22 thought, I think you said all the kids had that.
    23 Did Burke have that on his bed?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, he's had it I am
    25 sure, yes. But I don't remember whether he did
    0697
    1 you know, then or not. But -- that's a very,
    2 for us, just a -- hard not just to discount,
    3 because it's so ridiculous. I mean it's
    4 just --
    5 MIKE KANE: Why you do I think --
    6 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: It's just not an
    8 issue for us as a family. I mean Melinda wet
    9 her bed until she was older than, I don't
    10 remember how old, but it was older than -- if
    11 anybody had a bed wetting problem you would have
    12 said maybe it was Melinda, because it went
    13 longer, but it was --
    14 MIKE KANE: But this is the first
    15 one that Patsy had to deal with?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean Burke
    17 probably did too. No, Burke did. I know he
    18 did. You could tell that, you knew if you came
    19 downstairs and he was in the other bed,
    20 guaranteed what happened. Or he would come
    21 upstairs, crawl in bed with us. And have a
    22 clean pair of underwear on. So he wet his bed
    23 too.
    24 MIKE KANE: And I think you have
    25 already answered this. You didn't have any
    0698
    1 discussions with your wife about the urinary
    2 tract infections that your daughter had.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    4 MIKE KANE: What do you know about
    5 Mrs. Ramsey having panic attacks?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, I don't know
    7 what a panic attack is, I guess, for sure. How
    8 would you -- describe it.
    9 MIKE KANE: Just a feeling that you
    10 can't control the moment, overreacting to
    11 something maybe more than would be within a
    12 normal range. Just feeling, I can't handle the
    13 situation.
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: She is as stable as
    15 a rock.
    16 MIKE KANE: So you have never known
    17 her to have those?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: (No response).
    19 MIKE KANE: Never known her to be
    20 treated for those?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    22 MIKE KANE: Never known her to take
    23 any medication for those?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: (Nodding).
    25 MIKE KANE: Would it surprise you
    0699
    1 to find out that she did?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That would.
    3 MIKE KANE: Did you ever hear the
    4 drug Xanax, X-A-N-A-X?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: (No response).
    6 MIKE KANE: Ever known Ms. Ramsey
    7 to take that?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    9 MIKE KANE: I got to ask these
    10 questions. You have seen other circumstances
    11 where like the Susan Smith case in North
    12 Carolina, are you aware of that something
    13 totally out of it what any of us could ever
    14 imagine?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    16 MIKE KANE: What do you think of
    17 that?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's horribly
    19 tragic. You know, we have lost two children.
    20 And would give anything to have them back,
    21 anything. I would be out on the street with no
    22 possessions to have my children back. And
    23 to -- it's -- we cannot fathom, I cannot
    24 fathom how anyone could feel that way about a
    25 child.
    0700
    1 MIKE KANE: Yet it has?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I know. And it's,
    3 that's horribly tragic.
    4 MIKE KANE: I know early on when
    5 you were describing to Lou, you know, your
    6 theories of what might have happened, and one of
    7 the suggestions about Mrs. Ramsey being involved
    8 in this, you said it was preposterous, what do
    9 you base that on?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: She lived for the
    11 children. Period, pure and simple. She was
    12 given a gift to live after facing death and she
    13 was there for her children.
    14 MIKE KANE: Has the thought ever
    15 crossed your mind in the last 18 months, or the
    16 possibility that this was an accident?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no.
    18 MIKE KANE: Or it started out as an
    19 accident?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean how could it,
    21 how it, I mean I saw some dippy FBI guy who said
    22 this might have been just the outcome of an
    23 accident. The child was strangled, her head was
    24 bashed in, that is not an accident. No,
    25 absolutely not. I would have given my life for
    0701
    1 JonBenet in the instant and I regret that I was
    2 unable to. Patsy feels the same way. We know
    3 that much about that.
    4 MIKE KANE: Do you ever give
    5 thought to maybe this was the result of a some
    6 kind of a demon?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    8 MIKE KANE: Demonic?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
    10 Somebody, yeah. This is a creature that's out
    11 there.
    12 MIKE KANE: But it's never, you
    13 have never thought of all the suggestions, in
    14 all the finger pointing, the thought never
    15 entered your mind that maybe it was a product
    16 of --
    17 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: I can tell you this,
    19 I can tell you I have suspicion, and I have
    20 thought about almost everybody we knew, because
    21 you just don't trust people anymore. People
    22 that I would never, you think could have been,
    23 you know, John Fernie, oh, God, no, but how do
    24 you know. I have never, ever had that thought
    25 about Patsy. Or Burke.
    0702
    1 MIKE KANE: This is a big, big if.
    2 I mean, if, if it were to come out that there
    3 was some pathology Patsy was going through,
    4 caused her to do this, would you feel an
    5 obligation to protect her rather than find out
    6 that that was what killed your daughter?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: As a very big if,
    8 if that was what happened, I would not protect
    9 her from or protect that fact.
    10 MIKE KANE: Knowing the truth about
    11 her?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Knowing the
    13 truth. Absolutely not.
    14 MIKE KANE: Final question. Is
    15 there anything I have asked or said or done that
    16 you feel makes you not want to give follow-up --
    17 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I mean, you
    19 know, we, we are looking forward to being here
    20 and I absolutely want to continue an open
    21 dialogue. You know, probably figure that out,
    22 so Bryan doesn't --
    23 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Got to fire him,
    25 I fire him. I probably should do that. But no,
    0703
    1 we -- you know, we are never, if somebody -- I
    2 don't know. We have said to ourselves, look,
    3 there is never going to be a victory in this,
    4 there is no victory, but if we can find who did
    5 this, there could be some closure we can
    6 understand, what do we do, if anything, so our
    7 -- you know, the only thing that's important to
    8 us is our existing children. And finding who
    9 did this.
    10 MIKE KANE: And that's what's most
    11 important to you, you use the word us what --
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy.
    13 MIKE KANE: What about you?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Me?
    15 MIKE KANE: You personally?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, if I had to put
    17 those in order, I say and I find myself saying
    18 this, look, you got three wonderful children,
    19 you pick yourself up and get on with it. They
    20 need you. So and that obviously has got to be
    21 number one. But number 2 is who the hell did
    22 this. And number 3 is let's make something good
    23 come out of this. That's a contribution to
    24 society.
    25 MIKE KANE:
    0704
    1 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
    2 LOU SMIT: I think we are out of
    3 time. And we will be back.
    4 (End of tape).
    5
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    0705

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  5. #5

    Default

    0705
    1 _______________________________________________
    2
    3 IN THE MATTER OF:
    4
    5
    6 INTERVIEW WITH JOHN RAMSEY
    7
    8 _______________________________________________
    9
    10
    11 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW
    12
    13 VOLUME 4
    14 PAGES 705 - 796
    15
    16
    17
    18
    19 JUNE 25, 1998
    20
    21
    22
    23
    24
    25
    0706
    1 FOR JOHN RAMSEY'S INTERVIEW,
    2 THE FOLLOWING WERE PRESENT:
    3
    4
    5 LOU SMIT
    6 MICHAEL KANE
    7 BRYAN MORGAN
    8 DAVID WILLIAMS
    9
    10
    11
    12
    13
    14
    15
    16
    17
    18
    19
    20
    21
    22
    23
    24
    25
    0707
    1 LOU SMIT: We can get started. It
    2 is right at 2 o'clock, Thursday the 25th and
    3 everyone is in the room that has been in here
    4 before. And I would like to start this part of
    5 the questioning off just to show a couple of
    6 pictures. And again, we are dealing with crime
    7 scene photographs that were taken somewhat
    8 shortly after the technicians arrived, within
    9 the first three or four days, anyway.
    10 So I'd like to show photograph
    11 number 201 and I would like to show that to Mr.
    12 Ramsey. And ask if he can identify where that
    13 is, and maybe you can point to it in diagram
    14 here.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well back, this
    16 corner of the house right here.
    17 LOU SMIT: Which would be the
    18 southwest corner of the house?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    20 LOU SMIT: And that's near the
    21 grate area?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. The dog dish
    23 sprinkler head, it's a bucket with some ivies,
    24 looks like evergreen cuttings.
    25 LOU SMIT: That's what I would like
    0708
    1 to ask you about. The blue bucket with the
    2 contents is located near the grate. Can you
    3 tell me anything about that and maybe how it got
    4 in that location and who put these items in
    5 there?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I did
    7 not. It's full of water, as if the cuttings
    8 were a table decoration or something. Patsy
    9 might have done that or somebody. If it was
    10 just trash that was stuffed in the bucket or
    11 basket, I don't.
    12 LOU SMIT: I would like to know who
    13 put items in there. So far we haven't been able
    14 to identify who that is. And somebody would
    15 have had to be in close proximity to your house
    16 in order to do that.
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think I did.
    18 I don't -- I don't remember. I don't recognize
    19 the bucket. It's a while ago. No, like I say,
    20 I didn't do it. I don't know -- I am sure
    21 that's our container but.
    22 LOU SMIT: If we can try and answer
    23 that question, I would like to know.
    24 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    25 LOU SMIT: I am sure they are shown
    0709
    1 in the same photographs here.
    2 MR. MORGAN: If they are showing it
    3 to Patsy, that's about the only other source of
    4 information.
    5 LOU SMIT: Then I would like to
    6 show a couple of more photographs. Now these
    7 are photographs again right in the early morning
    8 hours pretty close to the kidnapping time.
    9 Those are photographs 102 and 103. They are
    10 outside photographs but they show vehicles and
    11 you know probably the neighborhood as well as
    12 anyone. Maybe you will remember it, maybe you
    13 won't, but I would like you to look at these and
    14 see if you might identify --
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: The white Volvo in
    16 102 is Priscilla White's, I believe. This car
    17 in front with that funny paint job is I believe
    18 Luke's that lives in the house two down from us.
    19 I can't tell what -- I don't recognize the car
    20 behind Priscilla's. The car behind that further
    21 down the street, I don't -- I don't recognize or
    22 I don't know who that is. This was taken later
    23 it looks to me, because Priscilla's car is gone.
    24 I still don't recognize the car in
    25 103, it was perhaps behind Priscilla's.
    0710
    1 LOU SMIT: I am sorry?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Priscilla's
    3 car is still in the picture in 103 it looks
    4 like. And there is a car behind that which I
    5 don't recognize it. The one behind the
    6 (INAUDIBLE) nor do I recognize that one.
    7 LOU SMIT: The blue one that's
    8 shown in 103, just the front end is showing?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    10 LOU SMIT: That wouldn't be --
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No.
    12 LOU SMIT: That wouldn't be
    13 (INAUDIBLE)?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: This could have been
    15 Fleet's Volkswagen, I don't know. He had a blue
    16 Volkswagen, bark blue, dark gray maybe
    17 Volkswagen, that might be his.
    18 LOU SMIT: Do you know anyone that
    19 owns a black Jaguar?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Late model like XJ6
    21 or a later model?
    22 LOU SMIT: Right.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: No. They had a
    24 white one, it was kind of an unusual color,
    25 gold, it wasn't green, you know (INAUDIBLE).
    0711
    1 But I don't remember.
    2 LOU SMIT: Did they have a Jaguar
    3 convertible?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: They do, yeah.
    5 LOU SMIT: Do you know anyone that
    6 owns a --
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Hold on, yes, I do.
    8 There is a guy that had an apartment or
    9 apartments in Barbara Fernie's mother's complex,
    10 that we looked at renting, this was after this
    11 happened, for a place to live. And he had a
    12 black Jaguar I believe.
    13 LOU SMIT: There was one seen in
    14 the neighborhood, the Whites on that morning or
    15 that evening so --
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: That's the only
    17 black Jaguar I have seen in Boulder. This guy's
    18 got to be a short guy. He was in real estate.
    19 He was an (INAUDIBLE) but just peculiar,
    20 wasn't -- I mean --
    21 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: No, but the Fernies
    23 might, because I think they put -- I can't think
    24 of the name of the apartment complex, but it's
    25 where Barbara's mother had an apartment. In
    0712
    1 Boulder. He had to leave -- I think he had left
    2 it there where he had a sublease perhaps.
    3 LOU SMIT: How about anybody that
    4 owns an Astro type van, do you have any friends
    5 that own that or people from Access that --
    6 there was an Astro type van seen in the area in
    7 the report.
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: What color?
    9 LOU SMIT: There was no color.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: The Access had a van
    11 that was a white Chrysler mini van. Astro van?
    12 No, I don't.
    13 LOU SMIT: Is it possible to
    14 tell --
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Except it might be a
    16 gray Caravan Fifth Avenue, the one going down
    17 the street in 102, which would have been, could
    18 have been Fleet's. He had a gray Caravan.
    19 LOU SMIT: Okay. I would like to
    20 talk to you about John Andrew's suitcase.
    21 That's a suitcase that you thought might be the
    22 one in photograph number 248. This was a
    23 suitcase in the train room that you said you
    24 moved a little bit.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    0713
    1 LOU SMIT: And I would like to ask
    2 you just some questions. Do you know what a
    3 sham is or a duvet?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
    5 LOU SMIT: Two type of things?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Sham is a blanket,
    7 right? But duvet, I don't know.
    8 LOU SMIT: Do you recall any shams
    9 or duvets being in your house? I know if you
    10 don't know what a duvet is, you probably don't
    11 know to say it was in there but --
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.
    13 A sham, I mean I don't know if I
    14 know what a sham was, a small blanket. That's
    15 purely a guess, but we had lots of little
    16 blankets and stuff like that around.
    17 LOU SMIT: How about a Dr. Suess
    18 book, do you remember anything in a Dr. Suess
    19 book, either associated with John Andrew or
    20 associated with JonBenet or anything that --
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had lots of
    22 kids' books. We had bookshelves full of them.
    23 I know that they had -- I know I read to 'em,
    24 Dr. Suess books, so I am sure they were there.
    25 LOU SMIT: Do you know why there
    0714
    1 would be a sham and duvet and a Dr. Suess book
    2 in that suitcase?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Could you tell me
    4 what a duvet is?
    5 LOU SMIT: A duvet is also
    6 something that fits on like on a couch or almost
    7 a little blanket that fits on a couch.
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: A square or does it
    9 fit?
    10 LOU SMIT: Yes. I have never seen
    11 this, I don't have a photograph of it, but can
    12 you think of why there would be a sham or duvet
    13 in John Andrew's suitcase along with a Dr. Suess
    14 book?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: No. My recollection
    16 of where that suitcase came from was he brought
    17 some clothes from Atlanta, where he went to
    18 school, and when the kid left to go to school be
    19 and every port in a storm in his apartment, and
    20 it ended up and it was in his room for a while,
    21 then it was in the laundry room outside of his
    22 room for a while, and then I carried it
    23 downstairs. I presumed it was empty.
    24 LOU SMIT: I appreciate if you
    25 wouldn't just talk to John Andrew about that
    0715
    1 right now. I would like to ask him that.
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: You want me to talk
    3 to him right now?
    4 LOU SMIT: We can talk to him
    5 either today or tomorrow, that's fine.
    6 VOICE: You said dump truck.
    7 VOICE: I would like to talk to him
    8 and ask him that question. So there is no
    9 misunderstanding.
    10 VOICE: We will arrange that.
    11 LOU SMIT: So that was just a
    12 question I had on that.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: It seems a bit odd,
    14 I don't know why it would be -- (INAUDIBLE) --
    15 LOU SMIT: Okay, we are going to
    16 talk a little bit if we can about the wine
    17 cellar. Now, did you -- what -- how often would
    18 you go into the wine cellar, let's say before
    19 the 26th? We touched on this yesterday. But --
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, throughout the
    21 year, hardly at all. I mean the only things
    22 that were down there that we would get at, I
    23 think we had some wine stored in there, just in
    24 boxes at one time. I don't know if there was
    25 any -- I don't know if there is any left or not.
    0716
    1 But we would get a case of wine and we would put
    2 it down there. Cigars I stuck down there.
    3 Um, and of course, you know,
    4 Christmas stuff out once a year, put it back.
    5 Patsy usually I think certainly that year did it
    6 or had it done, so I don't remember ever getting
    7 in there to get the Christmas stuff out. That's
    8 about it. We rarely went in that room.
    9 LOU SMIT: Have you ever been asked
    10 to make up a list of people who you thought
    11 could have ever been in that wine cellar?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    13 LOU SMIT: Is there a way that
    14 perhaps you could sit down, it's a little
    15 time-consuming right now, but at some point
    16 write down everybody's name that you may have
    17 thought could have possibly been in there, let's
    18 say within three months, let's start off with
    19 that?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. Went into the
    21 room?
    22 LOU SMIT: Into the room. And that
    23 may even be contractors or --
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I will do that.
    25 LOU SMIT: What have you heard
    0717
    1 about Hi-Tech shoes?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Just that there was
    3 a print found, a Hi-Tech boot, and that's all.
    4 LOU SMIT: Do you own a Hi-Tech
    5 type shoe, or have you ever owned one?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't -- not
    7 that I know of. I mean, I never have been -- I
    8 never paid much attention to brands of boots I
    9 had. I had some -- I had some running -- not
    10 running shoes. Hiking boots. I think I looked
    11 at those and they were -- they weren't Hi-Tech
    12 or anything.
    13 LOU SMIT: You have already looked
    14 at those?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I had some
    16 kind of dress boots that were more for -- but
    17 they weren't Hi-Tech boots. So I mean, I don't
    18 think we had anything like that. We had -- I
    19 had some of these felt-lined like duck boots.
    20 LOU SMIT: If we ever ask you to
    21 bring these items in, would you do that to make
    22 sure that we got them?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Sure.
    24 LOU SMIT: And there is a reason
    25 for that, of course. How about Patsy?
    0718
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't -- I am sure
    2 she doesn't. I mean we were aware that that was
    3 an issue, I think we looked and thought about
    4 it. But to my knowledge, she didn't or doesn't.
    5 LOU SMIT: Mike, what was that shop
    6 in Vail or something?
    7 MIKE KANE: Pepe's. I think that
    8 was the name of it.
    9 LOU SMIT: Pepe's, is that in Vail?
    10 VOICE: Yeah.
    11 LOU SMIT: Did she ever shop --
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't --
    13 Patsy's -- I don't remember the last time she
    14 was even in Vail. Pepe's doesn't ring a bell.
    15 LOU SMIT: I am going to show you a
    16 series of photographs, okay. And see if you
    17 recognize a print of the photographs, they are
    18 foot prints or shoe prints, and I would just
    19 like to show that to you if I can, and see if
    20 you might recognize maybe by looking at shoe
    21 prints, sometimes you know what the bottom of a
    22 sole looks like, if you have something similar
    23 to that or even maybe one of your friends?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Where was the print
    25 found?
    0719
    1 LOU SMIT: In the wine cellar.
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: In the wine cellar?
    3 LOU SMIT: Yes. So I would like to
    4 show you a series of prints and it's starting
    5 with -- it's 257, 258, 259, 260, 261 and 262.
    6 This is the front, this is the back (indicating)
    7 and just start with 259. If you will do that,
    8 Mr. Ramsey.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
    10 LOU SMIT: What do you see?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I see high, looks
    12 like high something you see in a square block
    13 with, I can't tell if it's raised or lettering.
    14 LOU SMIT: If you look at a
    15 photograph, see something to make a comment on
    16 just --
    17 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I think what
    19 would be -- I can't tell what that is. I don't
    20 know if that's sand or is that mildewy stuff
    21 that was in the basement. Looks like there is
    22 some -- some of the Christmas tree --
    23 LOU SMIT: Needles?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: -- needles, yeah,
    25 that were laying in there. It almost looks like
    0720
    1 the wall to me rather than the floor. Is it the
    2 floor?
    3 LOU SMIT: Yes.
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.
    5 LOU SMIT: If that's your
    6 impression?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks
    8 rough. I don't remember the floor being that
    9 rough, unless it was back in the corner. Back
    10 in the --
    11 LOU SMIT: Pointing.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Back in this corner.
    13 There was a lot of moisture that came in there.
    14 We had, in fact at one time we had a leak and I
    15 extended the drainpipe. The down spout that
    16 came in, probably right there and I extended it
    17 out, which stopped the leaking, but the down
    18 spout just emptied out in the ground and ended
    19 up in this part of the basement and this kind of
    20 looks like that was kind of a nasty end to the
    21 wine cellar.
    22 LOU SMIT: When did you do that?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: A year or two ago.
    24 LOU SMIT: I mean, was it, how long
    25 before Christmas?
    0721
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I am sorry, a
    2 year or two before Christmas. I did it some
    3 time ago.
    4 LOU SMIT: Did you ever clean or
    5 sweep that wine cellar for any reason or know
    6 that it had been?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was
    8 absolutely full of junk when we bought the house
    9 and lumber and old windows and we had all this
    10 stuff hauled away. I think I had swept it out,
    11 yeah.
    12 LOU SMIT: Do you know when?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it would have
    14 been in early -- early in the ownership of the
    15 house, as we --
    16 LOU SMIT: Okay?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: -- cleaned up the
    18 basement.
    19 LOU SMIT: And that would have been
    20 when, what year?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, '92, probably
    22 '93 maybe. '92 most likely. Because the room
    23 was just nasty. I had to get all this stuff out
    24 and then I discovered a little safe that was
    25 down there. And I cleaned it out.
    0722
    1 So I think I cleaned it up. I
    2 don't know whether I did it after that but I am
    3 sure it was cleaned at one point. The painter
    4 stored his paint cans in there. (INAUDIBLE) was
    5 in that room. Generally, where was this, in
    6 that back corner, that area?
    7 LOU SMIT: It was just right there
    8 in the room. I would say that it's more not
    9 right close to the wall.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: As I say, it, things
    11 tended to kind of get stuck in here, if you put
    12 anything in there, because --
    13 LOU SMIT: That would be towards
    14 the west wall there?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. There were
    16 some screens stored in there, a door.
    17 LOU SMIT: It would have been more
    18 in the open area?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. That he I
    20 didn't -- (INAUDIBLE) was in and out of that
    21 room and was in and out of here, you know, he
    22 didn't ever go back. I think -- well, I will go
    23 make a list, but --
    24 LOU SMIT: Yes, try to make a list
    25 of everyone you can think of that's been in
    0723
    1 there.
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.
    3 LOU SMIT: Because I know the
    4 police have really done some work on collecting
    5 shoes. That was a tremendous, tremendous
    6 undertaking that they did, because they, you
    7 know, all of the contractors and everything, did
    8 -- a lot of work went into that, just a
    9 tremendous amount. But maybe you can think of
    10 other people that went in there, or Patsy.
    11 And would people normally go in
    12 there or would they --
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: There's no reason to
    14 go in there. It was -- I don't know if it used
    15 to be a coal storage or something that just was
    16 a deed end room. It was, I think there was one
    17 light, and it was -- that was it. There was no
    18 reason to be -- the types of people that would
    19 have known that we know that was there would
    20 have been say the painter, because he put his
    21 stuff in there. Whoever helped Patsy get the
    22 Christmas stuff out, whether it was Linda
    23 Hoffman or Rob or Father Rol or whoever it was,
    24 but --
    25 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE QUESTION.)
    0724
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: In that room. I
    2 don't know for sure. They were in the house for
    3 over Thanksgiving for several days and we went
    4 home, so it's, it's not out of the question.
    5 They certainly could have been in there.
    6 LOU SMIT: Make a list, that would
    7 be a helpful thing.
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: We had the water
    9 faucet worked on, they had to have gone down to
    10 the basement to turn the water off.
    11 LOU SMIT: Those were the plumbers?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: The plumbers. That
    13 valve was right there by the steam unit, which
    14 is right by that room.
    15 LOU SMIT: Where would that be if
    16 you can could point that out to me?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, the cut off
    18 valve for the water is right there.
    19 LOU SMIT: That's by the window
    20 leading out to the boiler room?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, that's the
    22 window going out to the front of the house.
    23 LOU SMIT: What used to be
    24 connected to that opening vent at that window?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if it
    0725
    1 ever was or that vent -- that room gets very
    2 hot, that boiler sitting. I would assume they
    3 just put that vent in there to allow some air to
    4 get out of that window.
    5 LOU SMIT: And that leads outside
    6 and to the east; is that correct?
    7 Okay, which is the front of the
    8 house?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. We had a
    10 psychic call us and say that she had this image
    11 that there was something significant about a gas
    12 meter or electrical meter, and there is a gas
    13 meter that sits right by that window. Yeah.
    14 It's either gas or water. But -- I figured that
    15 (INAUDIBLE) that window would be very difficult
    16 to get in. Nobody even very far (INAUDIBLE.)
    17 LOU SMIT: There is one photograph
    18 here, some kind of fancy type technology or --
    19 VOICE: I believe the flash just
    20 didn't come off.
    21 VOICE: Is there more than one that
    22 we are looking at?
    23 VOICE: One last question, do you
    24 have any photographs of what a Hi-Tech boot
    25 looks like?
    0726
    1 LOU SMIT: I do, but I don't have
    2 it here with me.
    3 MIKE KANE: There is all different
    4 kinds.
    5 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    6 (INAUDIBLE.).
    7 LOU SMIT: Many different styles.
    8 LOU SMIT: I don't know, if you
    9 could take a look at, there is another print
    10 there. You picked up a Hi-Tech print. I was
    11 just wondering if the sole pattern on that may
    12 look familiar to you. It would be on the
    13 photograph, let's see, 262, you might look at
    14 that.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Is that this pattern
    16 here?
    17 LOU SMIT: Yes.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, no, it doesn't
    19 look like anything that we had or would have
    20 had. I don't -- this doesn't mean anything to
    21 me.
    22 LOU SMIT: Just a couple of
    23 questions and these are just miscellaneous
    24 questions that I had. In what area of the house
    25 do you think that JonBenet received the injuries
    0727
    1 to her head? This is just from your own --
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I guess my
    3 impression is that it was in the basement. But
    4 that's just purely an assumption. We didn't
    5 hear a thing. I think if she had cried out or
    6 -- you know, we would have heard that. I didn't
    7 know she had any head injury at all. It
    8 wasn't -- I just didn't see --
    9 LOU SMIT: You had no knowledge?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE
    11 RESPONSE.) I don't know. I just, that's
    12 something that's been difficult for me to think
    13 about it, is what exactly happened.
    14 LOU SMIT: And where?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: And where.
    16 LOU SMIT: Do you think that the
    17 head injury occurred at the same place as the
    18 other injuries, say with the literature?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean it's just no
    20 reason to -- to know that. I mean I guess --
    21 well, like I say, I just -- that's very
    22 difficult to think about and imagine, but I
    23 wondered whether the head injury didn't kill her
    24 and after that they strangled her.
    25 LOU SMIT: All right. This is
    0728
    1 getting way off of that. Do you know who
    2 brought John Andrew to the airport, when he left
    3 for Atlanta?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it probably
    5 was Melinda and Stuart, who were with him. You
    6 mean to come to Minneapolis?
    7 LOU SMIT: No, I am talking about
    8 Boulder to Atlanta.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: He -- oh, leaving
    10 for Christmas?
    11 LOU SMIT: Yes, leaving for
    12 Christmas.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. He would
    14 either usually take the airporter. He usually
    15 took the airporter. But I know he left his car
    16 parked I think at friends, driveway kind of
    17 thing.
    18 LOU SMIT: You don't know the name
    19 of the friend?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't, but John
    21 would, I am sure.
    22 LOU SMIT: How did Don Paugh get to
    23 the airport when he went to Atlanta, did anybody
    24 bring him?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: He would either take
    0729
    1 a limo, probably took a limo. I don't know,
    2 that's typically I think how he would get to the
    3 airport. I don't think he drove his car very
    4 often.
    5 LOU SMIT: Did he ever live with
    6 anybody in his apartment or was it just him
    7 alone?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No, that was kind of
    9 our corporate apartment. I lived there for a
    10 while. Patsy and I and Burke lived there for a
    11 while. Jeff Merrick (phonetic) lived there for
    12 a while. Michael Bernard (phonetic) lived there
    13 for a while. Curt Fisher lived there for a
    14 while, a fellow we hired.
    15 LOU SMIT: Did anyone live with Don
    16 Paugh, in other words could somebody have been
    17 at his apartment or known that he was leaving
    18 and that the family was leaving for Atlanta and
    19 in that apartment, did he live with anybody?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall.
    21 People -- that were there were, you know, they
    22 were instead of staying at a hotel they would
    23 stay at the apartment for a week or two or a
    24 month until they got their own place. I don't
    25 think anybody was there then. The only person
    0730
    1 that could have been, I think the last person
    2 that kind of went through that apartment was
    3 Michael Bernard. But I think he had his own
    4 apartment, whatever.
    5 LOU SMIT: How about your church.
    6 Do you have any suspicion of anybody in your
    7 church that may have, because you went to church
    8 all the time when JonBenet was there and she
    9 would have been visible to somebody in your
    10 church, any suspicions of anybody?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: We didn't have any
    12 suspicions of course while we were going. It
    13 was a congregation of, it was a pretty mixed
    14 congregation, in terms of families, single
    15 people, you know, street people would come in
    16 and go to church.
    17 We had this foyer dinner group at
    18 our house prior to Christmas. There was
    19 probably 30 or 40 church people there. Many of
    20 whom I had never met before. There were a
    21 couple of odd ducks that were there.
    22 LOU SMIT: Could you add names?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: There was one guy
    24 that kind of wears a little cap, like almost
    25 like a Jewish --
    0731
    1 LOU SMIT: How about --
    2 VOICE: Yarmulka?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Yarmulka, yeah, but
    4 it's a little bigger than that. Kind of covers
    5 his whole head. Older guy, maybe 55, 60, 65, in
    6 that range.
    7 LOU SMIT: Could you recognize the
    8 name --
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if I
    10 would recognize the name. I am sure Father Rol
    11 or somebody if I described that, they would know
    12 who it was.
    13 LOU SMIT: What makes you
    14 suspicious of him?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I talked to him for
    16 a while and he just -- he just was a little
    17 strange. You know, I just, some of the things
    18 he said. Nothing about children or any of that.
    19 LOU SMIT: Was JonBenet visible at
    20 that time in the house?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I am sure she was,
    22 yeah. She -- but I can't visually remember her
    23 being there, but I am sure she was. Had to be.
    24 LOU SMIT: Did you see this man in
    25 church before?
    0732
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I see him in
    2 church. He was, I guess, the one that just sat
    3 and talked to for a while and he seemed a little
    4 bit of an odd duck.
    5 There was a fellow that surfaced
    6 later that I am sure you guys are aware of or,
    7 because he -- he probably said he saw some stuff
    8 at our house, and I forget his name, but he was
    9 a little bit of a weirdo also. I didn't know
    10 him before, but afterwards, we kind of became
    11 aware of him. And I guess we had some worries
    12 about him, and he would approach me in church
    13 and -- afterwards, and just you know, be very
    14 sympathetic and --
    15 LOU SMIT: Did he ever tell you
    16 that he had seen anything at your house?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know whether
    18 he told me directly. We had gotten some
    19 information that he was seen in a pickup truck
    20 in the alley and had washed it or something and
    21 the police were watching him at the same time
    22 and he was odd.
    23 LOU SMIT: Jack Logan?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, Jack Logan,
    25 yeah.
    0733
    1 LOU SMIT: Did you know him
    2 personally in church or before that time?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.
    4 LOU SMIT: How about a fellow named
    5 Dan Burns, do you know a Dan Burns?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: The name rings a
    7 bell, but I don't -- I can't -- I can't tell
    8 why. You know, that name sounds familiar.
    9 LOU SMIT: He may have been at the
    10 foyer group.
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Is that right? I
    12 wonder if that was the guy with the hat. That
    13 kind of -- that could be his name. It's
    14 possible.
    15 LOU SMIT: The reason I mention
    16 these names it's not because they are suspects,
    17 but just because names come up, sometimes you
    18 associate a name and something will click and
    19 you will know that in the next --
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Another
    21 thing that happened that night was, there was a
    22 couple that moved in down the street in 777,
    23 15th, that had lost a child, and somebody that
    24 was at the church party said gee, I know these
    25 people, they are really nice, I would like to
    0734
    1 invite them up and have you meet them. They
    2 came up that evening.
    3 LOU SMIT: They lived there?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I don't
    5 remember the names. Arno (phonetic) -- yeah,
    6 yes, Arnold, unusual name. So this lady or
    7 couple, I think it was a couple, invited them
    8 up, they came up about 9:30, 10 o'clock, kind of
    9 as the church party was winding down and they
    10 stayed in the kitchen, talked for half hour, 45
    11 minutes, and I had never met them before.
    12 And --
    13 LOU SMIT: When was that foyer
    14 party?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: That was at the
    16 foyer party.
    17 LOU SMIT: When was it?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: That evening,
    19 probably 9:30, 10. Gosh, I don't know. I could
    20 look at the calendar, but it had been like
    21 the --
    22 LOU SMIT: In December?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: In December, yeah.
    24 In mid December.
    25 LOU SMIT: Who is Rick and Ruth
    0735
    1 Irwin?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.
    3 LOU SMIT: That name familiar?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it isn't.
    5 LOU SMIT: Maybe the (INAUDIBLE).
    6 (PAPERS RATTLING). Does that name ring a bell
    7 with you?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    9 LOU SMIT: Do you think they could
    10 have been at this foyer party?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: There were a lot of
    12 people there I didn't know. Is there -- well,
    13 um, maybe the lady that put that together.
    14 Carolyn, Catherine, Carolyn, Catherine. Her
    15 husband was like the treasurer of the church.
    16 She organized that, she did that foyer group
    17 stuff.
    18 LOU SMIT: So that name isn't
    19 familiar with you right off the top of your
    20 head?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: No. She might have
    22 had a list of the groups.
    23 LOU SMIT: Do you know a Bob Tofte,
    24 T-O-F-T-E?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    0736
    1 LOU SMIT: How about Randy Simmons,
    2 the photographer?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I have heard his
    4 name of course since then. I couldn't tell
    5 you -- I couldn't -- I don't think I have ever
    6 met him or could identify his picture, but I
    7 think he was a photographer that Patsy used.
    8 LOU SMIT: Anything you can tell me
    9 about him?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: I think one thing I
    11 remember I think we looked into that and he was
    12 kind of holed up in the mountains and was very
    13 strange, was that the guy, Randy Simmons.
    14 DAVID WILLIAMS: I think he went on
    15 the on -- he moved out -- (INAUDIBLE).
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, he was going
    17 somewhere. It was kind of a -- seemed to be
    18 really affected by this or --
    19 LOU SMIT: Have you been able to
    20 find anything on him or dug up anything on him
    21 other than the paramilitary type.
    22 DAVID WILLIAMS: Uh-hum.
    23 (INAUDIBLE) did you look at his record?
    24 LOU SMIT: I have looked. But I
    25 just wondered if there are any suspicions or
    0737
    1 extraordinary suspicions.
    2 DAVID WILLIAMS: I think it would
    3 be appropriate for us to talk afterwards, I will
    4 let you know.
    5 LOU SMIT: Can you remember talking
    6 to anybody real close to Christmas about your
    7 trip to Charlevoix, I ask you this real briefly?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Well of
    9 course, Fleet White and Priscilla White knew our
    10 schedule. Of course my secretary did. The
    11 people at the lake would have known we were
    12 coming, would have had the cleaning lady, the
    13 people who did the decorations on the house.
    14 Don Paugh, I mean the family would have known we
    15 were coming. Seems like there is somebody that
    16 Don talked to, I don't know if they asked about
    17 our schedule, and this is pulling from deep
    18 memory but --
    19 DAVID WILLIAMS: If I may how about
    20 people at Access?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Denise probably
    22 would have known, my assistant.
    23 LOU SMIT: Is that your secretary,
    24 she got a little upset after this and had to
    25 take a vacation and so forth? Denise Wolf?
    0738
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I didn't know
    2 she got real upset. I am sure she got real
    3 upset. She had a boyfriend that we kind of
    4 wondered about one time that came to us as a
    5 kind of a, it was a little strange. And that
    6 was of interest.
    7 In fact, I somehow remember
    8 thinking he passed me some (INAUDIBLE) even like
    9 a trust in the system, and I didn't want to ask
    10 her about it, it sure sounded strange. Her
    11 boyfriend was taking kids or be at the Christmas
    12 parties, had been at the office Christmas
    13 parties every year.
    14 LOU SMIT: He had been there?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I think so. And I
    16 think we looked into it then.
    17 DAVID WILLIAMS: That rings a bell
    18 (INAUDIBLE).
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: That there was
    20 something strange enough about it that I was
    21 concerned. He hated kids or hated me or
    22 something. I shouldn't say, I don't know
    23 whether that was true. I remember something
    24 about kids and he was dating Denise and if I
    25 recall, I met him, you know.
    0739
    1 LOU SMIT: How was her actions
    2 after this, I mean her own actions (MULTIPLE
    3 SPEAKERS)?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not at all. I
    5 didn't see her after for quite a while but --
    6 LOU SMIT: Does she still work
    7 there?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    9 DAVID WILLIAMS: (INAUDIBLE)
    10 information. I talked with Denise a lot after
    11 this because somehow it's very difficult to find
    12 John. It was really a hard time. Thought her
    13 behavior was absolutely straightforward, very
    14 concerned. Very caring. Very compassionate,
    15 very shattered over it. For what it's worth,
    16 those were my impressions of her.
    17 LOU SMIT: Okay. How about people
    18 that occupied offices real close to you, there.
    19 I know there was a couple that had offices --
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, that was next,
    21 Ross Churchill was -- no, Don Paugh was on one
    22 side and Tom Carson was on the other. Tom was
    23 our chief financial officer, he was there when I
    24 got there and kind of took care of him. We had
    25 an awkward business relationship, just I never
    0740
    1 felt comfortable, I didn't trust him, which is
    2 absolutely terrible to have a CFO you don't
    3 trust. He -- I was, he was always a struggle
    4 for me to deal with. I just didn't like the
    5 guy.
    6 LOU SMIT: Was it a two-way street?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, probably to some
    8 degree, I don't think he -- Tom might think --
    9 at least for a while I think my impression, he
    10 always thought he should have had my job instead
    11 of me. And some people you're around, in your
    12 work environment that when you're around them it
    13 pumps you up and it's a positive thing and
    14 others it's just always a drain. He was just
    15 always a drain for me.
    16 LOU SMIT: Do you think he could
    17 have any reason to do this? I know we are
    18 speculating, I know it's hard to say.
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I mean I
    20 thought about it, quite frankly. I mean I
    21 thought about everybody. You know, we were
    22 looking at, at that time, a, was it a sale of
    23 the business? Yes, there was -- Lockheed had
    24 made it kind of known, they -- we weren't
    25 strategic to them and they were divesting some
    0741
    1 of their nonstrategic businesses and we were one
    2 of those and they were open to offers and so
    3 that was going on. Tom certainly would have
    4 been the loser had we been acquired by another
    5 company. We were being looked at by Endicom
    6 (phonetic), which a company in Omaha, that was a
    7 fairly serious or getting fairly serious
    8 (INAUDIBLE) value of the company and that's how
    9 bizarre my thoughts have gotten.
    10 LOU SMIT: What's the name of the
    11 company?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Endicom.
    13 LOU SMIT: Endicom.
    14 LOU SMIT: Any particular name
    15 associate?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, Bill Fairfield
    17 is the president. It's a public company, you
    18 know, your mind is just reaching. And you know,
    19 if I was -- think they should have just killed
    20 me, that would have been it. Better way to do
    21 it, then the company wouldn't have been
    22 devalued, but Tom would have lost in that
    23 because clearly they would have put their own
    24 CFO in charge of the whole thing and he would
    25 have been out, probably.
    0742
    1 He was always anxious to get us out
    2 from under Lockheed but do it in such a way that
    3 he could make a lot of money at it. Tom's
    4 agenda ways his own agenda, that was one of the
    5 problems with the trust issue.
    6 He had two daughters. He was
    7 divorced. The only people he dated were people
    8 in the office, which was always a problem. My
    9 former secretary almost filed a sexual
    10 harassment suit on him. He just, he was kind of
    11 an awkward, socially, guy. But he came to the
    12 memorial, he came to the funeral in Atlanta.
    13 It's almost inconceivable to think he could be
    14 involved. In fact, he was on one side.
    15 LOU SMIT: What, would he have
    16 known you were leaving?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Quite possibly. We
    18 talked a lot so it wouldn't have been -- he
    19 probably more than anybody on my staff would
    20 have, other than Denise would have known my
    21 schedule, because, though Denise certainly would
    22 have known my schedule, it would have been on
    23 her desk. She kept a calendar. If somebody
    24 wanted to know they could have gone to the
    25 calendar.
    0743
    1 And it might have been a former
    2 boyfriend, I don't know if it was currently a
    3 boyfriend, you know, in December of '96 but
    4 something really on, mean working to. But you
    5 know.
    6 LOU SMIT: Do you know a Robert
    7 Phillips?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.
    9 LOU SMIT: And what do you know
    10 about him?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: He used to go by
    12 Nell, changed his name to Robert. He and Patsy
    13 worked together at Hayes Micro Computer
    14 Products, in Atlanta. He was a programmer,
    15 wrote a software program that Hayes bought, then
    16 they hired him to do the software program. I
    17 think he got enough money out of that to last
    18 him for a while.
    19 He quit Hayes, was an investor, in
    20 his own words, for a couple of years. Went to
    21 law school here in Colorado, graduated. Is now
    22 a lawyer in Atlanta or in Boulder that practices
    23 mostly -- was interested in estate planning.
    24 He's done some divorces and he's married to Judy
    25 Phillips, who is now Judith Phillips and she
    0744
    1 moved to Boulder. They have children. They
    2 have Lindsay, they have got two children, but I
    3 forget the other's name. They met through --
    4 they were either pen pals or e-mail pals, they
    5 had never met face to face, when they were
    6 engaged before they ever got -- strange. They
    7 got married, we knew them in Atlanta. They
    8 moved to Boulder. Fairly suddenly and we moved
    9 to Boulder just coincidentally a year later or
    10 so.
    11 Knell's done some deals for me, he
    12 did my wills, Patsy and my wills, set up some
    13 trusts for our kids.
    14 LOU SMIT: You had done this when,
    15 when had he done this?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, maybe three
    17 years ago, three or four years ago. Every year
    18 he would -- it was a gift.
    19 LOU SMIT: The lights on in the
    20 house. Do you normally leave certain lights on
    21 in the house?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, gosh, we usually
    23 left lights on. Sometimes we turned the lights
    24 in the, in this laundry area, we would turn them
    25 on dim, because there were a bunch of lights in
    0745
    1 the ceiling, there is a dimmer on them, you turn
    2 that down. Sometimes you would leave the light
    3 on in the laundry room there. Washer and dryer
    4 room. There is a little neon light or frosted
    5 light, it was enough to light that area. There
    6 was nothing religious about which ones we left
    7 on. We tried to leave lights on enough so you
    8 could see if you were up at night.
    9 LOU SMIT: How about in the
    10 basement?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Not at all unless it
    12 was just accidental.
    13 LOU SMIT: If you were to go down
    14 in that basement at night, would you be able to
    15 see your way around down there?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: It would be tough.
    17 But no lights on, it would be difficult. And
    18 there is always a lot of junk around. You know,
    19 it was open, the door here usually the light was
    20 on in this hall and if you left the door open,
    21 it wasn't a very long stairway, it would have
    22 provided some illumination probably in this
    23 area. But.
    24 LOU SMIT: Where was the light
    25 switch for that basement?
    0746
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: It seems to me it
    2 was either against that wall or as you went into
    3 the basement. Right now I don't remember for
    4 sure. There was a light, I think a light bulb
    5 right there. You might have had a little street
    6 light in this window at night.
    7 LOU SMIT: Where was the street
    8 light located at?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Hum, I don't
    10 remember. I think there's a telephone pole
    11 right in here somewhere.
    12 LOU SMIT: In front of the --
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean there is one
    14 down here maybe. Yeah, they are in front of the
    15 house. No, that's not right. The telephone
    16 pole is in back of the house. We had a lawn
    17 light that was out at the edge of the drive --
    18 edge of the sidewalk.
    19 LOU SMIT: Was that normally on or
    20 off?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was
    22 normally on. It usually was left on all the
    23 time.
    24 LOU SMIT: How about on the first
    25 floor?
    0747
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we might
    2 have left lights on in the study. Um, we might
    3 have left a light on, you know, in front of the
    4 window here, sometimes.
    5 LOU SMIT: Solarium?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: In the solarium.
    7 LOU SMIT: We talked to Mrs.
    8 Bloomfield next door. She said normally the
    9 light was on in the solarium but that night it
    10 was off. Does that sound logical?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's possible.
    12 I mean we came home after dark, we were tired.
    13 I wouldn't -- Burke and I played in the living
    14 room for a little bit. But I can't say for
    15 certain that I turned it on. Sometimes this
    16 light, there is an outdoor light right there.
    17 Sometimes that --
    18 LOU SMIT: Door light, you're
    19 pointing to the door of the solarium that opens
    20 to the south?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Sometimes we
    22 would leave this light on here outside of the
    23 dining room doors because it illuminated the
    24 patio.
    25 LOU SMIT: To the west?
    0748
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. But not --
    2 not always. You know, so we least had some
    3 lights on normally. We never turned them all
    4 off. I guess I shouldn't say never, but never
    5 intentionally turned them all off. I wasn't
    6 comfortable.
    7 LOU SMIT: Okay. Do you know a
    8 Dominick Giafrancisco (phonetic)?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    10 LOU SMIT: What do you know about
    11 him?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: He worked for us for
    13 several years. He was a marketing guy. He -- I
    14 always felt was a little low on horsepower. We
    15 had him doing -- he eventually quit, I think of
    16 his own accord. But he did so I think because
    17 he didn't feel that he was being advanced as
    18 fast as he wanted to be, is kind of my
    19 recollection. He probably left Access, you
    20 know, '95, '96 kind of time frame, is my
    21 recollection.
    22 He's an architect by education. I
    23 think moved to -- was building a house in
    24 Steamboat or somewhere in the mountains. That's
    25 the last I knew of him. What's the significance
    0749
    1 to his name?
    2 LOU SMIT: It's just that his name
    3 came up and I just wondered if you knew or had
    4 any suspicions on him or could have.
    5 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: He never crossed my
    7 mind as someone I was suspicious of. He was
    8 actually (INAUDIBLE).
    9 LOU SMIT: Do you know a fellow
    10 named Mike Wolf who lives on 16th?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. We looked into
    12 a guy named Wolf that came up. I don't know if
    13 it was Mike Wolf or not.
    14 LOU SMIT: Chris Wolf?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Chris Wolf, yeah.
    16 No, Mike Wolf I don't know.
    17 LOU SMIT: Okay, Robert Christian
    18 Wolf, Chris Wolf, did you fellows look into it?
    19 MIKE KANE: Yes, we did.
    20 LOU SMIT: The reason I am bringing
    21 that up a little bit is I am not positive that
    22 of this a hundred percent, but wasn't he a
    23 reporter also?
    24 VOICE: He claimed to be.
    25 LOU SMIT: Didn't he wrote articles
    0750
    1 about Access Graphics?
    2 VOICE: He wrote articles, yeah.
    3 LOU SMIT: Could he have had
    4 anything to do with that Entrepreneur Magazine
    5 or --
    6 VOICE: I never knew about it until
    7 yesterday. We are willing to give you
    8 everything we got on him. I know we turned over
    9 some information through Ellis, was that not to
    10 you?
    11 LOU SMIT: Yes, we got some things.
    12 VOICE: But I will ask Ellis to
    13 purge it all. If that's a connection
    14 (INAUDIBLE).
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. I
    16 mean he wrote articles for, was it Daily Planet
    17 or I forget what we found out, but apparently he
    18 was like a free-lance writer, claimed he wrote
    19 about Access Graphics, claim -- I know, claimed
    20 that there were a lot of phone calls to
    21 Cheryl -- Cheryl.
    22 LOU SMIT: One of your employees?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: She sat right next
    24 to Denise Wolf for years.
    25 LOU SMIT: Really?
    0751
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    2 LOU SMIT: What was her name?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Cheryl --
    4 VOICE: I remember this.
    5 VOICE: I don't have the name of
    6 the magazine straight, do you? Did you all get
    7 the one that you showed.
    8 LOU SMIT: (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: P R I T, I think.
    10 She can came up with the name, she is blond, she
    11 sat next Denise. She was on probation several
    12 times by the fellow she worked for who was Ross
    13 Churchill, she was calling in sick a lot, she
    14 wasn't that great of an employee, but apparently
    15 there was a number of calls to her somehow
    16 determined and she had handled all the travel
    17 arrangements, most of 'em, not -- she hadn't
    18 done that for the whole job but --
    19 LOU SMIT: Was she there in
    20 Christmas of '96?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, she would have
    22 been an Access employee then. I don't know that
    23 she was in that job then, because she was taken
    24 out of that job or went to Human Resources and
    25 then took over all the travel arrangements. I
    0752
    1 think actually she was fine with, but at some
    2 point she was moved out of that desk downstairs.
    3 LOU SMIT: Who would we talk to
    4 that would know her?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Denise Wolf would be
    6 a good source. Ross Churchill. She worked for
    7 Ross for a number of years, and we used to tell
    8 Ross, Ross, you got to get a better assistant,
    9 she is not very good, kind of move her out.
    10 LOU SMIT: Did she know what your
    11 bonus was, for instance?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: It's not out of the
    13 question. Not out of the question. She sat
    14 right there by Denise, they were back to back,
    15 there was no wall between them. It would have
    16 been very easy to know everything Denise would
    17 have almost.
    18 LOU SMIT: Again I throw out these
    19 names not more or less to say well, this guy did
    20 it or not, but just to jiggle recollections and
    21 maybe start to look at them a certain way.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well --
    23 VOICE: We can look up our reports
    24 and give you that information. I think we
    25 contacted him.
    0753
    1 VOICE: I don't recall. That was
    2 not in my division. ^ ^NOTE.
    3 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: That.
    5 LOU SMIT: Okay, do you know a
    6 fellow named Sam Bishop?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    8 LOU SMIT: Wasn't there a Bishop
    9 who was -- there is so many --
    10 VOICE: Ken Bishop.
    11 LOU SMIT: What about Ken Bishop?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: He was on that list of
    13 stun gun owners. There was a Ken Bishop that
    14 works in our tech support group.
    15 LOU SMIT: Have you ever seen the
    16 movie "Nick of Time"?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    18 LOU SMIT: And it's about the
    19 kidnap of a six-year old and it just happened to
    20 be on cable, according to one of the Internet
    21 things I read, on the 25th.
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I have never --
    23 it doesn't ring a bell at all. I wasn't aware
    24 of that.
    25 LOU SMIT: Next door to you, again,
    0754
    1 I asked you this once before, next door to the
    2 north, is the Gibbons and I show that in the
    3 phone book, there is a Reid Gibbons listed with
    4 a phone number. I know they have a young boy
    5 named (INAUDIBLE) is there another boy in there
    6 named Reid or anybody older named Reid that
    7 maybe had a telephone?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Geez, I don't know,
    9 I don't think so. Scott and Priscilla were the
    10 parents. Reid I think was their youngest child.
    11 I remember when he was born. Scott had well,
    12 Weston I think was Scott's son from another
    13 marriage, I am not sure about --
    14 LOU SMIT: Did he live there?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: He didn't all the
    16 time. He visited.
    17 LOU SMIT: How old is he?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Then he was, you
    19 know, Burke's age, give or take. But I don't
    20 know why --
    21 LOU SMIT: Any older kids that
    22 lived there?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: They had seems like,
    24 seems like they had someone who lived in the
    25 basement for a while. Could that be?
    0755
    1 LOU SMIT: A lot of times when you
    2 start a homicide investigation you start right
    3 -- in fact, I had a detective tell me that just
    4 recently too, you start winding tight circles
    5 around, and that's why I was wondering if you
    6 had anybody that could have even lived next
    7 door. Like I, said I never --
    8 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: There might have
    10 been. It kind of rings a bell. I think there
    11 was also someone that lived in the apartment at
    12 one time above 745. They had like an upstairs
    13 apartment. It was -- I don't know if it was a
    14 full-fledged apartment. I think someone lived
    15 up there.
    16 LOU SMIT: That's next door to
    17 you --
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: To the south.
    19 LOU SMIT: To the south, okay.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. 738 was a
    21 rental house. 764 was a rental house. The next
    22 one down, 774. 7 -- I think it's just those
    23 two.
    24 LOU SMIT: How about the across the
    25 alley from you, I have always been interested in
    0756
    1 those houses back there. Were you ever
    2 acquainted with anybody back there?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I talked to
    4 this lady once in that house there.
    5 LOU SMIT: That's 756?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, she was a
    7 British lady. We did meet these people, David
    8 and Ann. The Cobies were weird as hell,
    9 frankly. Their house was a pig sty. I mean it
    10 was, I had never been in it but Patsy had, and
    11 she just described it was, you know, a mattress
    12 on the floor for the kids, the kids always
    13 dressed themselves, they looked like they just
    14 dressed themselves in the morning and were I
    15 felt very uncared for. He was very weird.
    16 LOU SMIT: Who is he?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: The husband, or the
    18 father. He told me once that he was teaching
    19 his kids how to ride a bike and he would knock
    20 them over so they would learn how to fall off a
    21 bike. One day Burke took over a little gun, a
    22 plastic gun and he just went crazy, he didn't
    23 want any guns in the house.
    24 LOU SMIT: Do you know what the
    25 man's name is?
    0757
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Ruth and -- Patsy
    2 would know. He worked for the state. I think.
    3 He used to take the bus down to Denver every
    4 day. Just, their daughter who was at that time
    5 maybe early teenager, would spend hours and
    6 hours and hours out on the swing in the
    7 backyard, just swinging and swinging, it was
    8 like a rope swing. And somebody said gee, that
    9 must be -- there must be something wrong with
    10 her. We said no, maybe she just doesn't want to
    11 be in the house.
    12 That's probably right. Evan was a
    13 strange little kid. He was --
    14 LOU SMIT:
    15 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I just didn't care
    17 for him. He was, one time JonBenet was out in
    18 the driveway and she had a -- this was several
    19 years ago, she had a dress on that didn't have
    20 underwear on because it gotten taken off or what
    21 and Evan was down, you know, trying to look
    22 under her dress and here he was probably at that
    23 time a 7 or 8-year-old. I said Evan, cut that
    24 out.
    25 LOU SMIT: Now didn't they have an
    0758
    1 older one there too?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Kai was there, they
    3 had a daughter, two daughters. Ruth was the
    4 mom, and the daughter was older than the boys,
    5 you know. But --
    6 LOU SMIT: How about directly
    7 behind you in 756?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think that's
    9 the British couple, the British lady. I have
    10 never met him.
    11 LOU SMIT: Do you know if they were
    12 home at that time in Christmas of 1996?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't.
    14 DAVID WILLIAMS: That the one with
    15 the large antenna at the back?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: This one here,
    17 that's Kenny Smith. I had met him also
    18 actually. He owns a cheese store. He was a
    19 nice little guy.
    20 LOU SMIT: We had heard that there
    21 was a caretaker in one of those two houses in
    22 the back, someone was caring for the house right
    23 about that time. I don't know if you know
    24 anything about that or if you had heard anything
    25 on that?
    0759
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't. We had
    2 heard once this lady lived here before these
    3 people bought it.
    4 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE.)
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: She was a single
    6 divorced women or divorced woman, no kids, was
    7 going to CU, and somebody told us that she took
    8 in boarders and -- which we didn't know. It was
    9 kind of a surprise. But she had sold the house
    10 and -- that house actually sat empty for quite a
    11 while. There was something -- there were some
    12 students who lived in that house after she sold
    13 it and these people moved in.
    14 LOU SMIT: 777?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. These people
    16 did not move in right away. It was maybe almost
    17 a year later.
    18 LOU SMIT: Now, one of the things
    19 that I was always interested in is you have done
    20 a lot of investigating into this, and you were
    21 around, probably knew some of the people or some
    22 of the people had talked to you like Joe
    23 Barnhill across the street or maybe the nextdoor
    24 lady to the south there. Did anyone, to your
    25 knowledge, move out suddenly after this or did
    0760
    1 you have any indication that somebody may have
    2 left suddenly?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember
    4 anybody doing that.
    5 (VOICE OFF CAMERA). (INAUDIBLE):
    6 Transfer the information we got, just have you
    7 and Alice, between (INAUDIBLE). Just go through
    8 things like that.
    9 LOU SMIT: We would like to do
    10 that.
    11 VOICE: Get much better acquainted
    12 with details when I get this sort of inquiry
    13 than John is.
    14 LOU SMIT: This may take a certain
    15 period of time. Also I am -- like your tip
    16 sheets. Sometimes names cross in types and all
    17 of a sudden you pick that up when putting this
    18 into the computer.
    19 VOICE: At your convenience, if you
    20 just call. Between David and Alice, and they do
    21 the tip sheets.
    22 VOICE: The only two people that I
    23 can think of who moved away, they may have been
    24 neighborhood people, we don't know of them, but
    25 the only two people that we know of that moved
    0761
    1 away that was in some way involved in this
    2 incident or that's why they moved away, was
    3 Randy Simons who moved a hundred miles east of
    4 the city, and McReynolds. (INAUDIBLE).
    5 LOU SMIT: Does the name Phil
    6 Carroll mean anything to you?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No.
    8 LOU SMIT: One of the things I
    9 wanted to ask you is when you were right close
    10 to JonBenet when you were making these jewelry
    11 things on the -- on Christmas evening -- first
    12 of all, do you think you would have been close
    13 enough to see if there was a heart on her hand
    14 or would you have noticed it?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I sure could
    16 have. It was on the inside of the palm?
    17 Probably.
    18 LOU SMIT: But you didn't notice?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't notice
    20 anything.
    21 LOU SMIT: Did you notice any
    22 injuries to your daughter, to her face or neck
    23 or anything on your daughter, did she complain
    24 of anything that was hurting?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    0762
    1 LOU SMIT: Not --
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Not at all. She came
    3 back, she played upstairs for a good part of the
    4 day or the evening, and she and I and Fleet and
    5 Daphne sat on the floor and made these little
    6 jewelry things in the living room.
    7 LOU SMIT: So if she had a
    8 noticeable mark, would you have seen that?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah.
    10 LOU SMIT: Did you ever hear of her
    11 being injured in any way at the Whites or
    12 anything that evening?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I -- I
    14 mean no (INAUDIBLE). No, I mean my recollection
    15 is we, they played and we left and she fell
    16 asleep and obviously had a pretty good time.
    17 LOU SMIT: A question came up and
    18 just had it in my notes, there was something
    19 that was said and I don't know if I heard this
    20 on the Internet or heard it over the radio,
    21 various talk shows, people, why did you -- how
    22 did you determine JonBenet's date of death to
    23 put on her tombstone?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't know for
    25 sure but the note talked about we are going to
    0763
    1 call you tomorrow, frankly her body was cool
    2 when I found her, the arms were stiff. And I
    3 wanted to tell the world that you killed my
    4 daughter on Christmas Day. Don't ever forget.
    5 LOU SMIT: Okay. Just one other
    6 little area here. How long have we been going,
    7 since 2 o'clock?
    8 VOICE: Yes, since 2.
    9 LOU SMIT: I -- okay. I just
    10 wanted to go over just a few photos, and there
    11 is more photos I could go over with you, John,
    12 like all of the kidnapping, the time -- these
    13 are the freshest photos, because it's even
    14 before the little girl was found, JonBenet was
    15 found. But this may take a little time to do
    16 that.
    17 Now if you have got the time to do
    18 that, I can do that maybe after a short break or
    19 so. Go to the bathroom, have a short break.
    20 But I would just like to cover these --
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: We have absolutely
    22 all the time to do that. We can stay tomorrow
    23 too. It's up to you.
    24 LOU SMIT: There is many more
    25 things that we can go over if you want to go
    0764
    1 through every lead that we have. I think for
    2 now, with the lawyers and all we can cut off
    3 after that and we can always make another
    4 arrangement to go a little bit further than
    5 that.
    6 One of things that Mike mentioned
    7 before is this -- the photograph -- Mike, did
    8 you have any questions on --
    9 MIKE KANE: I think I explained
    10 that was part of a series of film.
    11 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    12 MIKE KANE: Sure, we just had a
    13 photograph. (INAUDIBLE).
    14 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    15 LOU SMIT: That was posters in the
    16 basement of movies?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yeah.
    18 MIKE KANE: Okay.
    19 LOU SMIT: I would like to show you
    20 a photograph number 517. It's a photograph of
    21 the bathroom and that would be the basement
    22 bathroom. But before we get into that, I think
    23 I will ask you a couple of questions.
    24 Again, who used that basement
    25 bathroom?
    0765
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: It was hardly ever
    2 used. I think Evan, I remember Evan using it.
    3 LOU SMIT: When?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, Evan was in and
    5 out of that house almost every day. And you
    6 know, I can't recall that it was right then that
    7 I -- I just remember. I -- the thing I wasn't
    8 sure worked, but I do remember Evan using it
    9 once, and remember thinking oh, it worked.
    10 Amazing.
    11 LOU SMIT: What, the toilet?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Burke might
    13 have. You know, hard to tell, if he's playing
    14 down there. But it just didn't get used.
    15 LOU SMIT: This I am going to show
    16 you a photograph, the number on the photograph
    17 is 244, I will show you that first. And this is
    18 a photograph that was taken and it was taken
    19 quite a bit later in the scene processing.
    20 Again, can you tell me what you see on that
    21 photograph, John?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks like
    23 that window.
    24 LOU SMIT: And which window would
    25 that be?
    0766
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like that.
    2 This window here.
    3 LOU SMIT: And that's in the
    4 basement right over the toilet?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I don't
    6 remember that shelf there. This --
    7 LOU SMIT: Macrame?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: Decoration, whatever
    9 is, yeah, I don't know why that would have been
    10 in there. Particularly. That was kind of a
    11 nonroom, nobody used it, nobody went in there.
    12 This looks like a plastic, maybe I am not --
    13 plastic tissue. It kind of looks like plastic.
    14 Do you know or -- that's a tissue?
    15 LOU SMIT: When is the last time
    16 you remember that room being cleaned?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Hard to say. Maybe,
    18 I don't know if -- if Patsy -- Patsy wouldn't
    19 have cleaned it, I wouldn't have cleaned it.
    20 Patsy's cleaning lady cleaned it, she would have
    21 been the one who had cleaned it. And she wasn't
    22 that great of a cleaning lady that she would be
    23 cleaning a room like that, would be my guess.
    24 LOU SMIT: She wouldn't?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.
    0767
    1 That was just a nonused room.
    2 LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea why
    3 toilet paper would be on the back of that tank?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No.
    5 LOU SMIT: That doesn't -- doesn't
    6 make --
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Doesn't make any
    8 sense. I don't know if there is a roll of
    9 toilet paper in there. Since that room is so
    10 seldom ever even entered. No, that doesn't make
    11 any sense.
    12 LOU SMIT: Here is a closer look at
    13 the same one. That's photograph 518.
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know, that
    15 doesn't -- doesn't -- anybody that would have
    16 used toilet paper would have flushed in the
    17 toilet, I would have thought. This redness
    18 that's on there, I think was -- that lid I think
    19 was cracked, I don't remember it being red.
    20 LOU SMIT: One thing I might, you
    21 know we were talking about that you had
    22 mentioned that the (INAUDIBLE) outside of that
    23 window, I want to be completely fair so you
    24 don't get the wrong idea, because you can
    25 speculate on a lot of things I could tell you.
    0768
    1 This ledge above the toilet is directly below
    2 that window.
    3 From what they were able to find
    4 out, I went through that window myself just to
    5 test to see if anybody could go through there,
    6 and when I went through there I brought along
    7 with me lot of debris which would fall on that
    8 particular ledge. We didn't find that that
    9 morning. So I didn't want to mislead you by
    10 just saying hey, somebody went in there. You
    11 would think that. We don't think that somebody
    12 went in that window that night.
    13 So I just wanted you to know that.
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, I was --
    15 interesting. I was thinking while I was looking
    16 at it, that is a hard way to get into the house.
    17 Through that window.
    18 LOU SMIT: But again --
    19 BRYAN MORGAN: From what you can
    20 tell though, the police officer wouldn't have
    21 made those marks?
    22 LOU SMIT: No, those marks are
    23 there.
    24 BRYAN MORGAN: On the exterior. So
    25 the intent to look at that.
    0769
    1 LOU SMIT: What you say is very
    2 logical.
    3 MIKE KANE: I mean, I don't think
    4 we ought to speculate at all on what they are,
    5 because it would be --
    6 LOU SMIT: Sure, it's not --
    7 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    8 LOU SMIT: It could be kids, it
    9 could be anything. So again it's there and
    10 that's all we should talk about. Okay.
    11 There is a photograph number 521,
    12 shows a sink in that bathroom area. And I will
    13 just show you what that sink looks like. And if
    14 you can make any comments on that, or --
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's changed
    16 there.
    17 LOU SMIT: Would that be usual or
    18 unusual?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: It would be unusual.
    20 As if somebody had emptied their pockets this --
    21 I mean nobody --
    22 LOU SMIT: Do you remember
    23 anything --
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't know
    25 what that is over here. It's a screw or
    0770
    1 something. But yeah, it's --
    2 LOU SMIT: Okay. I think we can
    3 take a break at about this time. Okay? All
    4 right. Then we just have --
    5 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    6 (Recess taken).
    7 LOU SMIT: It's five to 4. This
    8 shouldn't take too long. We just want to go
    9 through some photographs. I promised Mr. Ramsey
    10 that I would show him some photographs of the
    11 kidnapping area. I think probably best way is
    12 just to kind of look at each photograph, we
    13 won't identify them, unless there is something
    14 that you see out of place or something that's
    15 there that shouldn't be there or something
    16 that's missing. And then other than identifying
    17 them all, because otherwise we can go at this
    18 forever.
    19 Anything that you see that's out of
    20 the ordinary, just name the photo number and
    21 then again these photographs were taken right
    22 early in the morning of the 26th.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Now in photo 4, that
    24 little tieback for the drapes have to be --
    25 (INAUDIBLE) I can't tell, see what it does
    0771
    1 compared to the other side. It looks untied. I
    2 am sure if it was untied, Patsy would have tied
    3 it back up. I don't know what this ink spot is
    4 on floor. In the carpet. Do you remember
    5 seeing that before?
    6 LOU SMIT: Did JonBenet have hair
    7 ties in her hair?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: She -- she did from
    9 time to time, yeah. (INAUDIBLE).
    10 (TRANSCRIBER'S NOTE: The witness,
    11 Mr. Ramsey, is looking down in the photographs
    12 and talking about them making it inaudible for
    13 transcription.)
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I have to get better
    15 glasses. Patsy -- if Patsy knows what that
    16 little Santa Claus doll is. Strange, I have
    17 never seen it before either.
    18 LOU SMIT: And that Santa Claus
    19 doll is located where?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: In the bed next to
    21 JonBenet's.
    22 LOU SMIT: Where is that?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: This one.
    24 LOU SMIT: Photo 5.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I have never seen
    0772
    1 that. Some of these trophies kind of
    2 (INAUDIBLE).
    3 LOU SMIT: That's on photograph 7?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: 7. In fact, there
    5 is one in there laying down next to it on the
    6 floor looks a little unusual. I think she kept
    7 better care of those than that.
    8 I don't know, this doesn't like as
    9 complete as they normally look. (INAUDIBLE).
    10 The trophy.
    11 LOU SMIT: Let me help you with
    12 this a little bit. I will just take them out
    13 one at a time. I will just hand each page to
    14 you.
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess that that's
    16 used for perfection of a picture, but --
    17 LOU SMIT: Just a small mark on
    18 picture 15 up towards the top of the photograph
    19 that could be a mark or a maybe even a
    20 discoloration of the --
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember a
    22 spot like that on the wall, that was that big.
    23 LOU SMIT: On 16?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: 16, if that was on
    25 the wall, that's -- I don't recall that.
    0773
    1 LOU SMIT: Any of those?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know what
    3 that is. I can't --
    4 VOICE: You said that that note
    5 that looked like it had been a computer-
    6 generated Christmas kind of, was it her waste
    7 paper basket, in her bedroom, is that depicted
    8 in here? (INAUDIBLE).
    9 DAVID WILLIAMS: It wasn't in the
    10 bathroom basket.
    11 LOU SMIT: I will have to
    12 double-check that, I don't want to mislead you.
    13 DAVID WILLIAMS: I understand.
    14 LOU SMIT: That's an officer's pen.
    15 (Handing next sheet of photos).
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). 31,
    17 that almost looks like a picture in my kitchen.
    18 LOU SMIT: Right, that is. Is
    19 anything kind of out of place as far as these
    20 are concerned?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: (NO RESPONSE).
    22 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    23 (Handing next sheet of photos.)
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: (NO RESPONSE.)
    25 LOU SMIT: (Handing next sheet of
    0774
    1 photographs.)
    2 (Handing next sheet of
    3 photographs.)
    4 (No response from Mr. Ramsey.)
    5 (Handing next sheet of
    6 photographs.)
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know what
    8 that is on the stairway.
    9 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE).
    10 LOU SMIT: On photograph 59, there
    11 was something noted at the top stair pictured on
    12 that photograph. It's kind of a cloth type
    13 object. I am just trying to but Mr. Ramsey did
    14 not know what that was.
    15 (Handing next sheet of
    16 photographs).
    17 LOU SMIT: Mr. Ramsey, I would like
    18 to ask you a question if I could. On photograph
    19 number 60, what is that a picture of?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: A picture of the
    21 hallway door going out.
    22 LOU SMIT: That goes out the south
    23 door, right? There are some items located in
    24 the right of that picture. Could you tell me
    25 what that is?
    0775
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it look like a
    2 paper sack. Something black and red, but I
    3 don't know what it is.
    4 LOU SMIT: Would that have been
    5 something that you were packing for Charlevoix
    6 or would that -- does that look --
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: It's -- we wouldn't
    8 normally pack in a paper bag. Sort of gifts or
    9 something. I took most of the gifts up,
    10 prepacked them. That's a funny place to have
    11 left them if those were for Charlevoix. If they
    12 left them anywhere, they would be left at the
    13 door going to the garage.
    14 LOU SMIT: Also on photograph
    15 number 58, that's a photograph of the upstairs
    16 laundry room area?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
    18 LOU SMIT: There is a knife on the
    19 counter. What do you recall about that?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, nothing. That
    21 looks like a kitchen -- a knife that would
    22 normally be in the kitchen. It's hard to tell.
    23 Looks like it might be a grapefruit knife or
    24 something. We normally didn't prepare any food
    25 at that counter.
    0776
    1 LOU SMIT: Do you ever recall that
    2 knife being there before?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall, no.
    4 LOU SMIT: There is an item on the
    5 ironing board in that photograph, on photograph
    6 number 58, do you know what that is?
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Not for sure. Kind
    8 of looks like a vest of some kind, but, like a
    9 bow tie.
    10 LOU SMIT: Is that something
    11 JonBenet would wear or -- something she would
    12 wear?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recognize
    14 it.
    15 That's the back door, looks like
    16 it's locked.
    17 LOU SMIT: The back door to?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: The patio.
    19 LOU SMIT: And that's photograph
    20 number 61.
    21 (Handing next sheet of
    22 photographs).
    23 LOU SMIT: Perhaps 66 is a
    24 photograph of a check. Do you recall that?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I had in
    0777
    1 effect loaned Jay that money, when I bought his
    2 building. And he paid me back. I just hadn't
    3 deposited it.
    4 LOU SMIT: Do you know where that
    5 was located?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that was,
    7 looks like it was the dish rack in the back
    8 hallway, right there. About that little table.
    9 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Some checks or
    11 something on the table.
    12 LOU SMIT: (Handing next sheet of
    13 photographs).
    14 There is a scissors and some
    15 Christmas wrappings there. Is that?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Wrapping there in
    17 that room, consistent (INAUDIBLE).
    18 LOU SMIT: (Handing next sheet of
    19 photographs.)
    20 Let's see that one back for a
    21 second?
    22 BRYAN MORGAN: This one?
    23 LOU SMIT: Yes. In photograph 82,
    24 do you know whose car that is in front?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. I don't
    0778
    1 recognize any of them. (INAUDIBLE) car.
    2 LOU SMIT: (Handing next sheet of
    3 photographs.)
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: I am not sure what
    5 this is in the garage door in 86. Smudges on
    6 it.
    7 LOU SMIT: It's possible it's a
    8 fingerprint.
    9 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: This door, screen
    11 door.
    12 LOU SMIT: Which door is that,
    13 John, on 94?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: 94. Was cracked.
    15 LOU SMIT: Where is that located on
    16 the diagram in back of you?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: That should be --
    18 LOU SMIT: Again that door to the
    19 south patio door?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. And the
    21 screen door latch should be right here. I think
    22 that was used before.
    23 LOU SMIT: (Handing next sheet of
    24 photographs).
    25 JOHN RAMSEY:
    0779
    1 BRYAN MORGAN: If I understand it,
    2 all of these were taken in the early stages of
    3 the kidnapping scenes, which means early in the
    4 morning.
    5 LOU SMIT: Yes.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: These tracks in the
    7 snow here, might have been bicycle tracks.
    8 LOU SMIT: That's in photograph
    9 101?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. It wasn't
    11 unusual for him to ride through the yard.
    12 LOU SMIT: Did you say he had a
    13 bicycle that Christmas?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I know we got -- I
    15 got a bicycle. I think that's what it was. I
    16 gave myself a bicycle.
    17 LOU SMIT: That Christmas?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, Patsy got a
    19 bicycle, I got a bicycle, JonBenet got a
    20 bicycle. Burke already had one, I am pretty
    21 sure. I don't know what it is, I guess
    22 (INAUDIBLE).
    23 LOU SMIT: On the floor, actually
    24 what it is, is these are -- they dusted for
    25 finger prints and those are marks. Now whether
    0780
    1 there is enough for latents there or not, I
    2 don't know at this particular time.
    3 Again that's the same (handing next
    4 sheet of photographs).
    5 JOHN RAMSEY:
    6 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    7 LOU SMIT: Say what?
    8 (INAUDIBLE OFF CAMERA VOICES.)
    9 LOU SMIT: On 107 there is a water
    10 bottle, John is unsure who that belongs to.
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Now is this film
    12 on --
    13 LOU SMIT: They take a picture
    14 every once in awhile to show the time. So
    15 forth, that photograph --
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: That's their film?
    17 LOU SMIT: That's their film, yes.
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: That's Priscilla
    19 White I believe in the corner with a cup of
    20 coffee.
    21 LOU SMIT: On 108 shows a picture
    22 of Priscilla White in the corner. Who is the
    23 gentleman?
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: I think -- I think
    25 that's me with a green shirt on.
    0781
    1 LOU SMIT: That's in the foyer
    2 area, isn't it?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. And I don't
    4 know who else, detective -- I don't know.
    5 (INAUDIBLE).
    6 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    7 MIKE CANE: Could I just ask a
    8 question. I think it was 94, you said about
    9 this door. Is that the one that you were
    10 talking about had been damaged before?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.
    12 MIKE KANE: How did that get
    13 damaged?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that the
    15 little twist knob quit working, and we either
    16 had to -- something that went through it without
    17 opening it or I pulled it open to get -- I don't
    18 remember. But I think it had to do with the
    19 knob itself. Came loose.
    20 MIKE KANE: And how long before
    21 this was taken was that?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it would have
    23 been six months or better.
    24 MIKE KANE: Okay?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Six months to a
    0782
    1 year.
    2 LOU SMIT: (Handing next sheet of
    3 photographs). Now we are getting into the --
    4 I'd like to direct your attention to 115. What
    5 does that show you on that now?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a door
    7 with a bag or something hanging on it. I guess
    8 it looks like it's probably the backside of that
    9 door.
    10 LOU SMIT: Which is JonBenet's
    11 room?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: JonBenet's room
    13 door.
    14 LOU SMIT: Is that something that
    15 she would normally do, is hang a bag on it or
    16 could it be normal or --
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: It could be normal.
    18 It's possible, yeah. This then is still kind of
    19 unusual.
    20 LOU SMIT: The tie on --
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: The tie on 121.
    22 LOU SMIT: Is hanging over the
    23 edge --
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Is hanging over the
    25 edge of the bed, and is disheveled.
    0783
    1 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    2 LOU SMIT: John, I would like you
    3 to look closely at photographs 123 -- 122, 123,
    4 124 and 125, and those are mainly that area of
    5 JonBenet and see if you see anything there that
    6 looks out of place or is different or anything
    7 that rings a bell with you.
    8 (Handing next sheet of
    9 photographs).
    10 LOU SMIT: For instance, what is
    11 this multicolored --
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think it's a
    13 sweater of Patsy's, but --
    14 VOICE: Is that on JonBenet's bed?
    15 LOU SMIT: Is that a sweater that
    16 Patsy normally --
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks kind
    18 of like one of the sweaters, but she could tell
    19 for sure, I would say for sure, obviously.
    20 That's what struck me as one of hers. I am
    21 pretty sure that's Patsy's sweater.
    22 LOU SMIT: Do you remember when the
    23 last time that was that Patsy wore that or
    24 anything?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I really don't.
    0784
    1 LOU SMIT: How about the pillow?
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, if it's a
    3 pillow it should.
    4 LOU SMIT: Is that normally like
    5 that?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably, I just
    7 don't remember it. Might have been. It matches
    8 the sheet and (INAUDIBLE). I don't know why it
    9 would be at the end of the bed. Kids slept on
    10 pillows at the head of the bed.
    11 LOU SMIT: Now we are going to go
    12 kind of into later on when the photographs were
    13 taken later on the next day. And that
    14 photograph 204, what is that a photograph of?
    15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's the
    16 same screen door going out on to the patio.
    17 LOU SMIT: That's the south door?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    19 LOU SMIT: Again that's the damage?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I think that
    21 was -- that was there. Well, the door was
    22 locked at least in the picture, the inside door,
    23 but it seems to me I remember it was split,
    24 but --
    25 LOU SMIT: Okay. So that's damage
    0785
    1 to the door, that's the south door, it could
    2 have been --
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: It was split at
    4 least, there was some damage, yes. There was
    5 bicycle tread tires, that's what they look like,
    6 mountain bike tire.
    7 LOU SMIT: I am going to interrupt
    8 your train of thought just a little bit. Do you
    9 know a Carl and Frances Tuney (phonetic)?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Tuney?
    11 LOU SMIT: It's like a lawyer or
    12 something, maybe invited you to a --
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I know Frances
    14 Draper.
    15 LOU SMIT: Draper, that's it.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: Somebody, she was
    17 our -- she worked for Access Graphics, she was
    18 our financial services manager, credit manager.
    19 LOU SMIT: Were you invited to a
    20 New Year's Eve party or do you remember anything
    21 about that?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
    23 LOU SMIT: Do you know why --
    24 (INAUDIBLE)?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    0786
    1 LOU SMIT: Okay, we will continue
    2 looking. That's the same door, at 203 and 204?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: See, there is the
    4 split. I remember -- I say I don't remember it
    5 chipped out like that but, because I remember I
    6 put the split back and I think I put a nail in
    7 it or a screw, a nail, to hold it in. That's
    8 the knob.
    9 LOU SMIT: Did you see that?
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I saw that.
    11 LOU SMIT: I know these are all
    12 close-up photographs of the same thing, so you
    13 can look at that.?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. If that's the
    15 kitchen window --
    16 LOU SMIT: Which one?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: 431, 23, 33 it's
    18 hard to say. The kitchen window had a crack in
    19 it like that.
    20 LOU SMIT: And where was that
    21 kitchen window located, John?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right here
    23 (indicating).
    24 LOU SMIT: Right above the --
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Above the
    0787
    1 (INAUDIBLE). Probably is what that is. That's
    2 a little peculiar, the way that's pried up like
    3 that.
    4 LOU SMIT: That's in photograph
    5 number --
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: 437.
    7 LOU SMIT: Which window is that?
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: That's the window in
    9 the study. Center window of the study, looks
    10 like the top. It's pried up, partially pried
    11 up.
    12 LOU SMIT: Is that unusual?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I don't
    14 remember that being that way at all. I don't --
    15 I don't recall that either.
    16 LOU SMIT: Now when you point to
    17 that, that's now which photo is this that you're
    18 referring to?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: This is, let me make
    20 sure I have the right door, that is the door out
    21 of the solarium.
    22 LOU SMIT: Okay, that's on
    23 photograph --
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: 438, 440, 441. That
    25 door opened out, which was a bit peculiar. It's
    0788
    1 chipped around the dead bolt lock.
    2 LOU SMIT: Do you recall that?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
    4 LOU SMIT: Would you have recalled
    5 it?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, not -- not a
    7 hundred percent certain I would have. It could
    8 have been made by somebody closing the door with
    9 the dead bolt open. The two locks on the door,
    10 that dead bolt and the door handle itself.
    11 LOU SMIT: Did you normally keep
    12 that door locked?
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: That door is
    14 normally locked. It's rarely used.
    15 LOU SMIT: Okay.
    16 (Handing next sheet of
    17 photographs).
    18 LOU SMIT: That's just Christmas
    19 wrappings in the living room?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't know
    21 what that red squiggly is in this.
    22 LOU SMIT: That's our --
    23 (INAUDIBLE). Somebody stamped and we have that
    24 on a lot of those photographs.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: Same thing in this
    0789
    1 door, I guess.
    2 LOU SMIT: That's the front door
    3 and what do you see this?
    4 JOHN RAMSEY: That was the black
    5 spot above the door handle.
    6 LOU SMIT: Right.
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know what
    8 that is. I don't remember that being there.
    9 LOU SMIT: And that is on
    10 photograph number --
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: 569. That's just
    12 more pictures of that same sweater and door, it
    13 looks like. This is a vague picture I guess.
    14 LOU SMIT: Yes. You notice
    15 anything on the -- on the -- on the photographs
    16 575 and 576?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's that door
    18 up to the patio.
    19 LOU SMIT: That's the same door?
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: Chipped.
    21 LOU SMIT: Okay?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
    23 LOU SMIT: (Handing next sheet of
    24 photographs).
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: (No response).
    0790
    1 LOU SMIT: Okay, that almost
    2 concludes that. And then I just have one more
    3 November that I put in here. Do you know who
    4 this gentleman is? We don't know who it is.
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. No.
    6 LOU SMIT: Okay. It was just a
    7 picture that was given to us that somebody said
    8 might be a suspect in this case. And I just
    9 show it to the camera here.
    10 Okay, that kind of concludes the
    11 photographs. I think that's going to be all I
    12 need to talk about. Mike, did that prompt any
    13 questions on your part there?
    14 MIKE KANE: No, none that I didn't
    15 ask.
    16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Is there anything
    17 that we can do for you?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um, (INAUDIBLE)
    19 trying to do, so --
    20 LOU SMIT: Now, are you, this was
    21 just a brief question but are you going to go
    22 just go back to Atlanta now?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. Our
    24 original plan was to go back to Charlevoix for
    25 the weekend. I have a feeling we will be
    0791
    1 (INAUDIBLE) big time up there and back to
    2 Atlanta.
    3 LOU SMIT: Are you planning a press
    4 release or anything about this.
    5 VOICE: Our plans are uncertain
    6 about this. We want to give Mr. Ramsey a chance
    7 to say whatever he wants to say. If we say
    8 anything, it will be we are here, we are
    9 working, making progress, that's it.
    10 JOHN RAMSEY: What we want to do,
    11 if these guys catch us we don't want to be
    12 looking like we are running and hiding. It's
    13 just going to be here, we are here.
    14 LOU SMIT: We have shown you
    15 various pieces of evidence and we have shown you
    16 things in this case, and do you intend to use
    17 that in your media presentation at all?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: No, absolutely not.
    19 BRYAN MORGAN: We are not going to
    20 talk about evidence in this case. We aren't
    21 yet.
    22 LOU SMIT: It's just that sometimes
    23 it might be to your advantage to say certain
    24 things.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't care what
    0792
    1 the media says, the more they keep the firing
    2 line the more ammunition they give us to get
    3 this settled, but so I mean --
    4 BRYAN MORGAN: We haven't talked
    5 about the content in the interview with --
    6 (INAUDIBLE). We haven't talked the about the
    7 content in any of our conversations and we think
    8 it (INAUDIBLE). Listen to the things we have
    9 done in a generic way, search (INAUDIBLE). And
    10 handwriting (INAUDIBLE) we haven't talked about
    11 content, we don't intend to much terribly
    12 protective the not leaks (INAUDIBLE). Talking
    13 about it very significant piece of (INAUDIBLE)
    14 that's what all over Chuck Green's column the
    15 next day is probably indicating the killer
    16 between the Ramseys. That sure as hell didn't
    17 come from us.
    18 LOU SMIT: You know, we have been
    19 here for three days now. We have gone over a
    20 lot of things and I think I have gotten to know
    21 you pretty good at this time, and you have
    22 probably gotten to know us, and you know there
    23 is a lot of people out there that really do
    24 believe that you did this to your daughter or
    25 that your wife did this. And you know, that you
    0793
    1 have said that you didn't do that, and I am
    2 going to take you at your word.
    3 We know you're a Christian, John,
    4 and would you swear to God you didn't do this?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I swear to God I
    6 didn't do it. I swear to God.
    7 LOU SMIT: Do you know anybody
    8 else, that your wife could?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
    10 LOU SMIT: You swear to God?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: I swear to God.
    12 What I told you is the absolute truth. I
    13 couldn't be more emphatic, I guess, than that.
    14 We love our children. Having lost a child, you
    15 just can't -- what I heard when we lost Beth was
    16 that people came forward and consoled us and I
    17 was amazed at how many people carry burdens.
    18 There is a business guy came forward and said I
    19 lost a child.
    20 I was just, just -- happy to -- I
    21 mean here is a guy that I knew for five years as
    22 a business associate and he was carrying this
    23 horrible burden. I thought Beth was the burden
    24 I had to carry. And then we have been given the
    25 burden of losing JonBenet who in my mind was a
    0794
    1 gift to us. She took Beth's place.
    2 (Mr. Ramsey started crying).
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: More than I can bear
    4 except to have here her. So people can think
    5 that. I just -- (INAUDIBLE).
    6 LOU SMIT: Anything else?
    7 BRYAN MORGAN: No, we are done. We
    8 have a lot of work to do in the future. I
    9 will -- I will ask Ellis to deal directly with
    10 you about the files we have. We have not
    11 submitted everything we have because we tried to
    12 cull them to a degree, they can sit down and
    13 talk any time you wish, anything that we found
    14 on the tip line, on any suspect. On any of the
    15 above.
    16 That is as a start of now, whenever
    17 your schedule allows. We do need to think about
    18 a way to have an easy open round of
    19 communications between you and us and John and
    20 Patsy, who may know the way to crack this case.
    21 I need to think about that. We have got gradual
    22 kind of, (INAUDIBLE) nothing I have ever seen
    23 and I have had horrible cases before and I need
    24 to think about that.
    25 I am completely trusting in the
    0795
    1 object of the investigation you all are running,
    2 I want to say this. But I need to think and I
    3 need to have at least some -- some sense of the
    4 outlines of conversations and so forth. But as
    5 far as they are concerned, they are open right
    6 now. John and I need to sit and talk and think.
    7 And I would like to call any time, any time,
    8 that you are ready to do it again, and you give
    9 me a description of what you want to do and then
    10 I am going to figure out a way to get it done
    11 like that, without putting us in the middle.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I would like to have
    13 a vehicle so that frankly any of the people we
    14 have talked to today here can call us, ask a
    15 question.
    16 LOU SMIT: I understand, because I
    17 might not be here. I might have to cut back and
    18 we will have to do that. You know, even the
    19 Boulder police department, I think they will
    20 help us if we need. I know that on certain
    21 things they will help us.
    22 BRYAN MORGAN: You know our
    23 objection has never been uniform. I mean per
    24 se. I think there are people down there that I
    25 believe were trying hard. I just, we just felt
    0796
    1 that the overall direction was and to a --
    2 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
    3 LOU SMIT: That's up to you.
    4 MIKE KANE: I think maybe we should
    5 talk off the record.
    6 BRYAN MORGAN: I am for that.
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I don't care.
    8 BRYAN MORGAN: We have said all we
    9 need to say. We will work it out. I understand
    10 your circumstance and if you do need to pull
    11 back what we need to do is find someone to work
    12 with along with you and we will do that.
    13 LOU SMIT: That's it. It's 5
    14 o'clock, we are done.
    15 (End of tape John 4.)
    16
    17
    18
    19
    20
    21
    22
    23
    24
    25

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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