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  1. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Thanks, Cynic, for posting that excellent DNA article. It goes to show how easily DNA can be transferred from one item to the next. The victim, of the sad story you presented, had three sets of DNA under her fingernails. The best profile came from the contaminated clippers. The more degraded could have been picked up by the victim several days before her murder. Handwashing probably accounts for it's degradation.

    It just stands to reason that if I can touch a phone and leave a flu virus on that phone; and if you can come along two hours later and get that flu virus on your hand after picking up the same phone, then, skin cell DNA is all over the place. It would be transferred in the same manner. You go to a movie theater and rest your arm on the arm rest. Chances are, you have someone's DNA on your clothing or arm. With every technological advancement, there is a resulting danger or drawback. The harvesting of minute skin cell DNA will, no doubt, result in correct convictions that would never have taken place. But, it will also allow others to get off the hook when unknown DNA shows up.

    I tend to believe this unknown JBR DNA came from something the child got for Christmas, a doll or bicycle. It may have come from the morgue but surely they would have been able to track down a match if that were the case.
    I may be wrong, but I don't know that in 1996--in fact, not even today--that DNA was automatically processed for every body that came through the morgue, even those autopsied. I do think a blood sample is collected and kept on file, but I'm thinking it would be rather expensive to process DNA for all. Plus labs are backed up so far with criminal case samples, that in itself has become a problem.

    Just some thoughts. Maybe I'm wrong about that and someone can bring me up to speed...?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  2. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Thanks, Cynic, for posting that excellent DNA article. It goes to show how easily DNA can be transferred from one item to the next.
    You’re welcome, I’ve been following the DeMocker case for a while, that was a very interesting development.
    This tidbit from an older study fits in well, I posted this over at WS about a year ago:
    A 2006 study by Poy and van Oorschot showed an example of secondary transfer when a mixed DNA profile was found on a swab taken from an examination magnifying lamp. This profile was searched in the lab's database and a match was found with a case that had been worked on the bench-top with the magnifying lamp. It was determined that DNA was transferred from the item being examined to the analyst's gloves and then onto the top of the magnifying lamp.
    Journal of Forensic Identification Volume:56 Issue:4, July/August 2006 Pages:558 to 576
    Trace DNA Presence, Origin, and Transfer within a Forensic Biology Laboratory and Its Potential Effect on Casework, Adam L. Poy ; Roland A. H. van Oorschot

    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    It may have come from the morgue but surely they would have been able to track down a match if that were the case.
    That depends, see below.
    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I may be wrong, but I don't know that in 1996--in fact, not even today--that DNA was automatically processed for everybody that came through the morgue, even those autopsied. I do think a blood sample is collected and kept on file, but I'm thinking it would be rather expensive to process DNA for all. Plus labs are backed up so far with criminal case samples, that in itself has become a problem.

    Just some thoughts. Maybe I'm wrong about that and someone can bring me up to speed...?
    Not all autopsies are done for forensic reasons. Non-forensic autopsies do not require blood and other samples to be stored for potential future tests. If the nail clippers were not sterilized following a non-forensic autopsy (to check fingernails for evidence of long term drug use, for example) there would be no way to eliminate that decedent as a source of contamination short of exhuming the body which is obviously not going to happen. There are a lot of variables here, the foremost being how frequently the clippers were sterilized.

    Hospital Versus Medicolegal (Forensic) Autopsies:

    In most hospital autopsies, no blood samples (of any type) are collected or retained.
    In medicolegal autopsies, it is not only necessary to collect and retain blood samples for toxicology testing, but it is prudent to also collect blood (or bone or tooth) samples specifically for potential DNA testing.

    Specialized collection cards are commercially available, which allow for safe, convenient collection and storage of blood drops for potential DNA testing. These specimens should be maintained indefinitely.

    Checklist for Medicolegal Autopsy Performance
    ❐ Obtain all available historical information prior to autopsy.
    ❐ Obtain required consent from medicolegal death investigation official (coroner/medical examiner).
    ❐ Assure the positive identity of the decedent.
    ❐ Collect appropriate evidence, in cooperation with the investigating police agency. Certain types of evidence require collection prior to disturbing the body (sexual activity kit, trace evidence).
    ❐ Perform a complete external examination, including the back, the hands, the neck, the conjunctiva, the anogenital area, and the oral cavity.
    ❐ Photograph, as dictated by case type. At the very least, an identification photograph is required.
    ❐ Perform x-rays, as warranted by the case.
    ❐ Perform complete autopsy (head, neck, chest, abdomen), including specialized examinations, as warranted.
    ❐ Properly collect and submit (or retain) samples for toxicology testing.
    ❐ Perform complete internal exam, including various specialized techniques, as warranted by the case (tongue, anterior neck, posterior neck, eyes, spinal cord, leg dissection).
    ❐ Collect and retain samples for potential DNA testing (blood spot card, hair sample).
    ❐ Check with investigation agency for latest information before signing case out.


    Basic Competencies in Forensic Pathology, Joseph A. Prahlow, MD
    http://www.cap.org/apps/docs/cap_pre...y_chapter3.pdf

  3. #39
    Join Date
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    In the Federal Witness Protection Program
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Thanks, Cynic, for posting that excellent DNA article. It goes to show how easily DNA can be transferred from one item to the next. The victim, of the sad story you presented, had three sets of DNA under her fingernails. The best profile came from the contaminated clippers. The more degraded could have been picked up by the victim several days before her murder. Handwashing probably accounts for it's degradation.

    It just stands to reason that if I can touch a phone and leave a flu virus on that phone; and if you can come along two hours later and get that flu virus on your hand after picking up the same phone, then, skin cell DNA is all over the place. It would be transferred in the same manner. You go to a movie theater and rest your arm on the arm rest. Chances are, you have someone's DNA on your clothing or arm. With every technological advancement, there is a resulting danger or drawback. The harvesting of minute skin cell DNA will, no doubt, result in correct convictions that would never have taken place. But, it will also allow others to get off the hook when unknown DNA shows up.

    I tend to believe this unknown JBR DNA came from something the child got for Christmas, a doll or bicycle. It may have come from the morgue but surely they would have been able to track down a match if that were the case.
    There is a little-known incident that has never been investigated as far as the morgue and DNA. There was a young man who worked transporting bodies to the morgue, and JB was one of them. He was found to have stolen the morgue log that showed a written entry of the receipt of JB's body. He has tried to sell the morgue log. I believe he may have been arrested for it. Well, any creep that would try to sell a morgue log simply because it was connected to this case is creepy enough to have "taken a peek" (or worse) at the "murdered beauty queen".
    Not to disparage all morgue workers, but some people seek those jobs because they have a "thing" for dead bodies, and necrophilia is not unheard of among that particular group. I am not saying he sexually abused her corpse, but he could have looked where he wasn't supposed to. He could have pulled her pants down. And that could be the male DNA that is present. I do not know if he was ever tested for a match, but I have not seen that he was.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  4. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I may be wrong, but I don't know that in 1996--in fact, not even today--that DNA was automatically processed for every body that came through the morgue, even those autopsied. I do think a blood sample is collected and kept on file, but I'm thinking it would be rather expensive to process DNA for all. Plus labs are backed up so far with criminal case samples, that in itself has become a problem.

    Just some thoughts. Maybe I'm wrong about that and someone can bring me up to speed...?
    Yea, I was wondering just how easily they could have tracked down a possible contamination back then. If the clippers were the instrument of transfer or contamination, then, I would think they could have narrowed that down easily. But if it was a case of some article of clothing or, whatever, it might have been tougher because, as you say, there might have been nothing to match with barring an exhumation, etc.

  5. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    You’re welcome, I’ve been following the DeMocker case for a while, that was a very interesting development.
    This tidbit from an older study fits in well, I posted this over at WS about a year ago:
    A 2006 study by Poy and van Oorschot showed an example of secondary transfer when a mixed DNA profile was found on a swab taken from an examination magnifying lamp. This profile was searched in the lab's database and a match was found with a case that had been worked on the bench-top with the magnifying lamp. It was determined that DNA was transferred from the item being examined to the analyst's gloves and then onto the top of the magnifying lamp.
    Journal of Forensic Identification Volume:56 Issue:4, July/August 2006 Pages:558 to 576
    Trace DNA Presence, Origin, and Transfer within a Forensic Biology Laboratory and Its Potential Effect on Casework, Adam L. Poy ; Roland A. H. van Oorschot


    That depends, see below.


    Not all autopsies are done for forensic reasons. Non-forensic autopsies do not require blood and other samples to be stored for potential future tests. If the nail clippers were not sterilized following a non-forensic autopsy (to check fingernails for evidence of long term drug use, for example) there would be no way to eliminate that decedent as a source of contamination short of exhuming the body which is obviously not going to happen. There are a lot of variables here, the foremost being how frequently the clippers were sterilized.

    Hospital Versus Medicolegal (Forensic) Autopsies:

    In most hospital autopsies, no blood samples (of any type) are collected or retained.
    In medicolegal autopsies, it is not only necessary to collect and retain blood samples for toxicology testing, but it is prudent to also collect blood (or bone or tooth) samples specifically for potential DNA testing.

    Specialized collection cards are commercially available, which allow for safe, convenient collection and storage of blood drops for potential DNA testing. These specimens should be maintained indefinitely.

    Checklist for Medicolegal Autopsy Performance
    ❐ Obtain all available historical information prior to autopsy.
    ❐ Obtain required consent from medicolegal death investigation official (coroner/medical examiner).
    ❐ Assure the positive identity of the decedent.
    ❐ Collect appropriate evidence, in cooperation with the investigating police agency. Certain types of evidence require collection prior to disturbing the body (sexual activity kit, trace evidence).
    ❐ Perform a complete external examination, including the back, the hands, the neck, the conjunctiva, the anogenital area, and the oral cavity.
    ❐ Photograph, as dictated by case type. At the very least, an identification photograph is required.
    ❐ Perform x-rays, as warranted by the case.
    ❐ Perform complete autopsy (head, neck, chest, abdomen), including specialized examinations, as warranted.
    ❐ Properly collect and submit (or retain) samples for toxicology testing.
    ❐ Perform complete internal exam, including various specialized techniques, as warranted by the case (tongue, anterior neck, posterior neck, eyes, spinal cord, leg dissection).
    ❐ Collect and retain samples for potential DNA testing (blood spot card, hair sample).
    ❐ Check with investigation agency for latest information before signing case out.


    Basic Competencies in Forensic Pathology, Joseph A. Prahlow, MD
    http://www.cap.org/apps/docs/cap_pre...y_chapter3.pdf
    I think that gives us enough to say that there could have been a major problem trying to trace contamination if it game from the morgue.

  6. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    There is a little-known incident that has never been investigated as far as the morgue and DNA. There was a young man who worked transporting bodies to the morgue, and JB was one of them. He was found to have stolen the morgue log that showed a written entry of the receipt of JB's body. He has tried to sell the morgue log. I believe he may have been arrested for it. Well, any creep that would try to sell a morgue log simply because it was connected to this case is creepy enough to have "taken a peek" (or worse) at the "murdered beauty queen".
    Not to disparage all morgue workers, but some people seek those jobs because they have a "thing" for dead bodies, and necrophilia is not unheard of among that particular group. I am not saying he sexually abused her corpse, but he could have looked where he wasn't supposed to. He could have pulled her pants down. And that could be the male DNA that is present. I do not know if he was ever tested for a match, but I have not seen that he was.
    Point well taken.
    Last edited by Learnin; June 8, 2011, 10:38 pm at Wed Jun 8 22:38:12 UTC 2011. Reason: duplicate

  7. #43

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    Thanks for the info and source, cynic.

    DeeDee, that was J.T. Colfax who stole those morgue log pages. He and ACR became cyber friends and he told that story online, as well as shared some of his experiences living in Boulder during the nutzo time after JBR's murder. I believe his DNA was tested, though he doesn't specifically state that, but he was a suspect for a time and did end up spending time in jail.

    He also illustrates the loose standards of the morgue and Dr. Meyers at the time when he writes about the stored brains he encountered. Yes, he is eccentric, I might add.

    ACR has links on her JB case page, so I found this for a quick rehash from Colfax:

    http://ode2colfax.tripod.com/05221997morguelogtheft.htm

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #44

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    I believe his DNA was tested...
    He also illustrates the loose standards of the morgue and Dr. Meyers at the time when he writes about the stored brains he encountered. Yes, he is eccentric, I might add.

    ACR has links on her JB case page, so I found this for a quick rehash from Colfax:

    http://ode2colfax.tripod.com/05221997morguelogtheft.htm
    He was swabbed for DNA, and he's definitely colorful.

    James Thompson, known to his friends as J. T. Colfax, worked for M&M Transport in Denver. His job was to pick up cadavers and deliver them to funeral homes. On April 28, he went to pick up a body from the morgue at Boulder Community Hospital. The cadaver was having its eyes removed for donation to an eye bank, and Colfax was told to come back later.
    At around 1:00 A.M., Colfax went back to the morgue, just to hang out. On a whim, he leafed through the log book, came to the month of December, and tore out the pages with an entry about JonBenét. Later that morning, he photocopied the log pages, wrote “All in a Night’s Work” on the copies, and mailed them to friends in New York and California.
    That afternoon, low on cash, Colfax tried to shoplift a photo-finishing order he had placed at Safeway Photo Processing. He was arrested. The police looked at the evidence—twenty-seven photos—and discovered that the pictures were of cadavers. Colfax found himself in a police car en route to the Denver PD. Which one of those people had he murdered, the cops wanted to know. None, Colfax said, he just liked to photograph dead people. Did you murder JonBenét Ramsey? No, he said, he had been in Vancouver, Canada, on December 26, at the Royal Hotel on Granville Street. One officer shouted that he was a pervert.
    Two days later Colfax made bail, was given a court date, and became an item in the Denver papers. Mike O’Keeffe, a reporter for the Rocky Mountain News, was told by a friend of Colfax’s about the morgue log pages. O’Keeffe passed the information on to his colleague Charlie Brennan, who was covering the Ramsey case. Brennan in turn called the morgue to inquire about the log pages, not mentioning Colfax’s name. That afternoon, when the pages were discovered missing, the sheriff was called. Until then, no one had noticed they were gone.
    Meanwhile Colfax, who was becoming a minor media celebrity, confessed to the press that he’d stolen some morgue log pages containing JonBenét’s entry—as a souvenir. When the Boulder police heard Colfax’s tale, they assigned Detective Ron Gosage to pay him a visit.
    It was raining when Gosage arrived at Colfax’s Denver apartment. The log pages from the morgue were lying on the floor. Within minutes he was arrested. On the way to Boulder, Gosage chatted with Colfax.

    Colfax understood he was a suspect. Later that afternoon he was formally interviewed. The police asked him to describe the morgue. It was orange, he said—no, it was governmental green or gray—shit, he couldn’t remember the color. Then they got around to JonBenét’s death. Did you know the Ramseys in Boulder? In Denver? Colfax said he’d lived in Atlanta but that he didn’t know Patsy Ramsey. Gosage grilled him for two hours. Then Colfax gave the detective the hair evidence he requested.
    Gosage cut his hand pulling hair samples from Colfax’s head. While Colfax completed his handwriting samples, the detective sat there wringing his hands while blood flowed from between his fingers. Next, Colfax’s inner cheek was swabbed for a DNA sample. Then he was booked for criminal mischief and theft. Bond was set at $1,000.
    Two months later, Colfax still had not been sentenced for stealing the morgue log pages. He was out on bail. One morning he visited Alli Krupski at the offices of the Daily Camera and told her she’d look good as a dead body. He’d been drinking. Then he walked 2 miles to the Ramseys’ house. Along the way, two tourists stopped and asked him where Patsy Ramsey lived. “I think it’s up here,” he said, motioning them to follow him. When they arrived, the tourists took his picture in front of the house. Then he walked down to University Hill and tried to call Gosage through 911. Believing that the police were after him, he wanted to meet the detective. After he left the message, he walked back to the Ramseys’ house. At around 11:30 P.M., he considered breaking in and spending the night but then decided against it. Better to write the Ramseys a note.
    “If you hadn’t killed your f*****g baby,” Colfax wrote, “this wouldn’t have happened.” He stuffed the note and some pages from a paperback book, Interview with the Vampire, into the front door mail slot, took a matchbook, printed Gosage’s name on it, and set fire to the paper. He watched it scorch the inside wall from a nearby window, hoping that because it was made of brick, the house wouldn’t burn down.
    The next morning he called Gosage again. This time he confessed to trying to burn down the Ramseys’ house, which the police knew nothing about. Within an hour he was arrested. Six months later, on January 16, 1998, Colfax was sentenced to twenty-four months’ probation for first-degree arson, a class-three felony. For stealing the morgue log pages, he was sentenced to two years in the county jail, with no credit for the seven months he had sat in jail after turning himself in for the arson. By then, Lou Smit and Trip DeMuth had interviewed him several times. Colfax’s alibi for December 26 checked out.


    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 373 - 376

  9. #45

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    Thanks again, cynic. You're a virtual encyclopedia of this case!


    Um...cynic...no one has mentioned anything about damage to your reputation, hanging out in low places...Guttahs, for example?:computer:

    Psst! Tricia! I think we best kidnap this person now! Treat cynic well, best cardboard box we got here in the Guttah! But never, ever let this treasure get away! :foshizzle

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #46

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Um...cynic...no one has mentioned anything about damage to your reputation, hanging out in low places...Guttahs, for example?
    It’s a risk, but I just had to see how the other half lives.
    Treat cynic well, best cardboard box we got here in the Guttah!
    You’re too kind. One request, please make sure it’s the box with air holes, you know, NOT the “special” box for Lin Wood.
    Last edited by cynic; June 9, 2011, 7:38 pm at Thu Jun 9 19:38:43 UTC 2011.

  11. #47

    Default A little Tidbit I found Today

    http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?i...389852&rss=SFB
    Lin Wood Leaves Bryan Cave to Launch Small Firm
    Wood, with Bryan Cave senior associate Stacey G. Evans and Katherine V. Hernacki, launched Wood, Hernacki & Evans on May 9
    Meredith Hobbs All Articles

    Fulton County Daily Report
    May 27, 2011
    Twitterdel.icio.us DiggRedditGoogle BookmarksNewsvineLinkedInMixxStumbleupon
    PrintShareEmailReprints & PermissionsPost a Comment
    Atlanta attorney L. Lin Wood Jr.
    image: Catherine Lovett/Fulton County Daily Report
    L. Lin Wood Jr. is returning to his small-firm roots after becoming the first celebrity plaintiffs lawyer for Powell Goldstein, now Bryan Cave, five years ago.

    He and Stacey G. Evans, a senior associate at Bryan Cave, left to launch Wood, Hernacki & Evans on May 9. Joining them is Katherine V. Hernacki, who was Wood's associate at his own firm and then Bryan Cave before starting a solo plaintiffs' practice last year.

    Wood said he left Bryan Cave to handle a big whistleblower case that would have posed conflicts at the 1,000-lawyer firm. He is joining qui tam lawyers Marlan B. Wilbanks and Ty M. Bridges on a suit alleging fraud against DaVita Inc., the largest kidney dialysis chain in the U.S., which Wilbanks said could potentially be worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

    Blah,blah,blah

  12. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    It’s a risk, but I just had to see how the other half lives.
    You’re too kind. One request, please make sure it’s the box with air holes, you know, NOT the “special” box for Lin Wood.
    Ha ha, Cynic, not everyone KNOWS about our special Lin Wood box! Who told you? That Guttah gossip, KK? Sheesh. And after I gave her the best dregs of my Boone's Farm!



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