Problems with DNA results & DNA tutorials

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by fr brown, Oct 11, 2010.

  1. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I've seen several articles about the problem of DNA contamination at crime scenes and mortuaries by investigators and lab techs. Since it seems likely that Patsey Ramsey wrote the ransom note, how did the minute amount of foreign DNA (the amount in a sneeze) get into the blood spot in JonBenet's underwear? Maybe just by someone talking over it?

    "Results show that contamination by talking in both kneeling and sitting positions occurred almost immediately (<30 seconds, but not from just one sentence) up to 69 cm from the subject. When standing, contamination could be observed up to a maximum 115 cm from the subject, and was only present in one of three repeats when talking for only 30 seconds. This article illustrates how rapidly a static person can potentially contaminate an area in front of him or herself within a laboratory or scene environment, just by talking."

    From "How long does it take a static speaking individual to contaminate the immediate environment?"

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/16461813157pqk46/
     
  2. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Fallible DNA evidence can mean prison or freedom

    From a subscription-only New Scientist article (a link to a free article covering the same territory is in my next post):

    "But DNA is not as objective as you might think. In the first of a two-part investigation, New Scientist reveals that much of the DNA analysis now conducted in crime labs can suffer from worrying subjectivity and bias. We asked forensic analysts to interpret a sample of real DNA evidence and found that they reached opposing conclusions about whether the suspect matched it or not. Our subsequent survey of labs around the world also shows that there are significant inconsistencies in the guidelines on how to interpret a sample. The findings suggest that the difference between prison and freedom could often rest on the opinions of a single individual....Interpreting alleles in a mixed or partial sample is where the subjective opinion of an analyst could play a part...."

    http://www.newscientist.com/article...-dna-evidence-can-mean-prison-or-freedom.html
     
  3. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Evaluating forensic DNA evidence: Essential elements of a competent defense review

    "In our experience, examination of the underlying laboratory data frequently reveals limitations or problems that would not be apparent from the laboratory report, such as inconsistencies between purportedly "matching" profiles, evidence of additional unreported contributors to evidentiary samples, errors in statistical computations and unreported problems with experimental controls that raise doubts about the validity of the results. Yet forensic DNA analysts tell us that they receive discovery requests from defense lawyers in only 10-15% of cases in which their tests incriminate a suspect.

    Although current DNA tests rely heavily on computer-automated equipment, the interpretation of the results often requires subjective judgment. When faced with an ambiguous situation, where the call could go either way, crime lab analysts frequently slant their interpretations in ways that support prosecution theories."

    http://www.bioforensics.com/articles/champion1/champion1.html

    Although told from a defense attorney's point of view, obviously this could cut either way, depending on who's doing the hiring.
     
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Good work, fr brown. Do you post at Websleuths? We're having a throw down or two there over just this very thing. I don't know if it's been posted there, but it should be.

    Thanks. I'm going to bring a post here addressing some of these issues I wrote this afternoon. No need to rewrite it because it took me so long to write it the first time. It's not as scientific in basis, but I ponder issues like bias and the lack of credibility for the results because of those involved and their agendas, etc.
     
  5. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I only post here and occasionally at topix. Feel free to post those articles on Websleuths, if you like.
     
  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks so much. You might want to join WS, though. There's good discussion there and it's more civil than topix, with differing points of view, too. There are some really knowledgeable posters there, too.

    Here's the post I mentioned. I was responding to some good points by posters who are much better at the DNA issues than I:

    [Hope Tadpole12 doesn't mind me using a quote.]

     
  7. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Love you, KK.
     
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Back atcha, DeeDee.
     
  9. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    A poster at WS asked a question as to what scenario could explain the "foreign" DNA on the underpants and longjohns from secondary transfer, and here are my thoughts, which I want to put here just to keep the discussion going, because this is obviously the Ramseys' trump card, they believe. I don't, and here's why:

     
  10. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I'm not quite sure where to put this--Problems with DNA or just Problems.

    "Ghouls are at play in the city's morgues.

    The people employed to respectfully handle the remains of the deceased have instead turned cadavers and body parts into macabre playthings, The Post has learned.

    And they shockingly documented their depraved foolery in photos taken as keepsakes.

    Grinning mortuary technicians use corpses as props in dozens of disturbing Polaroids obtained by The Post.

    Perhaps most disturbing of all is mortuary technician Kaihl Brassfield holding a severed head in a classic Heisman Trophy football pose.

    The creepy pictures, some undated and others from 2004, show Brassfield and unidentified co-workers hamming it up. "It was foolish," he conceded. "Now I'm older. It stopped."

    Brassfield, a $35,000-a- year technician at the Brooklyn morgue of the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner, had been out of work on disability, but was suspended without pay after inquiries by The Post.

    He says that for several years, everyone working in the Staten Island and Brooklyn morgues, from cops to coroners, participated in the gory games.

    But in recent years, after the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner took over from the Health and Hospitals Corp., staff got more professional, Brassfield said.

    "We are looking into the allegations," said Office of the Chief Medical Examiner spokeswoman Ellen Borakove. "This is the antithesis of the mission of our agency to always treat families and decedents with the utmost respect and sensitivity."

    The probe by the office's inspector-general began after the queries were made about the photos, and the city's Department of Investigation has begun interviewing ME employees.

    Brassfield said the photos were stolen in November. He said he received calls blackmailing him in December, but refused to pay."


    Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/fun_eral_games_mJmNmzTeYJV8JV0hMdH1GN#ixzz12EDzjNfi
     
  11. Elle

    Elle Member

    One word comes to mind, fr brown! Macabre! [​IMG]
     
  12. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Remember that creepy morgue worker who was arrested for trying to sell the morgue log that listed the pick up of JB's body? He would be just the kind of creep who would pull down her panties and longjohns and take a look. Or touch.

    Why hasn't HE been tested as a donor for the male DNA?

    Oh...I remember. That would take a REAL DA to ask for a warrant to swab his cheeks. Do we have a real DA there yet? I have a favorite saying about things like that....

    It's like the puppy who peed behind the sofa. It remains to be seen.
     
  13. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I believe he stole the log page long after the murder.

    Most visitors to the morgue weren't left by themselves. He wouldn't have been. Grabbing a page out of a book is something that only takes a moment. You wouldn't be able to pull off much more than that.

    The security guards and some hospital personnel had access. They've probably been tested. Whether or not one of them might have brought some other unknown person into a deserted morgue in the middle of the night, who knows?

    In State of Play Russell Crowe plays a reporter who pokes around a dead body in the morgue while a coroner's assistant fidgets nearby. It's only a movie, of course, but it showed me I wasn't crazy for wondering if a reporter or a Ramsey PI might have bribed his way in. Fleet White told Steve Thomas that he was interviewed by Ramsey investigators the same afternoon JonBenet's body was found. (Apparently White kept notes of everything.)
     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    A brilliant poster at the topix JBR forum, otr, pointed out something right under our noses for years: an autopsy picture of the medical examiner or someone who assisted with the autopsy holding JonBenet's hand...clearly touching her fingers/fingernails. If he/she had DNA on those gloves, contaminated as has been reported from using the same, unsterilized clippers on various bodies, transference could have occurred here. Or if she had DNA on her own fingers or under her fingernails from something she had touched, that could have gotten on these gloves while handling those, as well:

    [​IMG]

    Now think about that: if the medical examiner had DNA on those gloves from contaminated instruments or fingers or fingernails or anything, he also pulled down the longjohns and Bloomies. He looked at the Bloomies close enough to report that the BLOODSTAINS IN THE PANTY did not correspond to bloodstains on the genital area of the body. How closely did he handle those Bloomies to determine those spots did not match up?

    There's an excellent opportunity for contamination of the longjohns and Bloomies, IMO.
     
  15. AMES

    AMES Member

    That picture makes me want to post something...totally off topic....that I have been saying for years....that is NOT a heart on her hand..it is a smiley face...without the circle. Eyes and a mouth underneath. = ) (Only right side up). It is as plain as the noses on our face too.

    Is that a hair on the sleeve of her other arm...up above the arm with the hand with the SMILEY face drawn it (underneath the ruler, around 1 or 1 1/2). It looks like a dark hair to me....could it be....hmmmm....Patsy's?? I bet it wasn't even tested...probably wasn't even seen. Another blotched job.
     
  16. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Interesting article, Fr. B. I note that this article mentions the possibility of guilty people being released from prison because some foreign DNA shows up. I believe this is really going to be a problem in the future as so many people are now being released from prison on this scant DNA evidence. Defense attorneys have clothing scraped and, if unknown DNA is found, then, the process begins.

    Now, as for the JBR unknown DNA. There are many ways this scant DNA could have gotten where it was found and, the article you presented, gives us an example of another one.
     
  17. Learnin

    Learnin Member


    Well, here's another possible source for the unknown DNA. How many murder victims would Boulder get in the morgue? And a child at that? It wouldn't be that far fetched to think that a curious or some curious individuals had a look see....
     
  18. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    This was a good pickup by otr. In several articles, that posters have presented, experts have insisted on the importance of frequent glove changes so as not to transfer DNA, etc. They site examples of lab techs touching one article of clothing and then transferring DNA to another article because they failed to change gloves. Now, we must remember, back in 1996, they weren't gathering DNA from skin cells left by touch. I think it's safe to assume that Meyer (and whoever might have been assisting) was not as careful in 1996 as Meyer might be today with the advancement in the technology.
     
  19. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Yes, Learnin, remember that famous outburst in the OJ trial from Barry Scheck Atty from the Innocence Project..."And how about THAT Mr. Fung". It was videos of Criminist Fung picking up blood samples and not changing his gloves. It was a big boo boo then and of course it could be even bigger now because of the easy way that we now know it is to spread DNA breathing on things, sneezing on things, or just touching them.
     
  20. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Perhaps this isn't the best thread for this, but....

    Springs unit hot on cold cases with new DNA testing machine

    COLORADO SPRINGS — A robotic DNA processing machine at the Colorado Springs Police Department will soon be humming as it helps solve murder mysteries up to 60 years old.

    Over the next several weeks, two forensic scientists will use the machine to identify DNA left on hundreds of pieces of evidence, including clothing collected from 89 murder victims since 1949....The team spent the first eight months tracking down evidence in storage lockers and analyzing files to see which cases had the best chance of being solved with DNA testing. They initially identified 35.

    Although testing had been done on some of the cases, the new machine can do things older tests couldn't. It can analyze tiny skin cells left behind when a killer pulls on rope to strangle someone or tears a victim's clothing....


    http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_17603528
     
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