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  1. #1

    Default The Dust Detective and the JBR case

    Do y'all remember this little "evidence" item that came out when PERV Karr was the big news from Team Ramsey?

    We haven't discussed it all that much. But looking at the recent developments from the BPD, I thought it might be worth another look. I find it interesting for several reasons:

    1. This "dust" evidence taken from the crime scene sat in this lab for 10 YEARS?

    2. If there were evidence from these particles that indicated there was an intruder, we'd have heard all about it from Smit and Lacy, no doubt.

    3. This evidence is microscopic, yet nothing to point to that old intruder?

    Also, I found something else that makes it even more interesting to me, which I'll include next.

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

    Aug 25, 2006 6:07 pm US/

    Central Investigators Turn To Elgin Lab In Ramsey Murder

    Lab Has Assisted In Many High-Profile Casesby Katie McCall

    CHICAGO (CBS) AP

    Forensic scientist Skip Palenik is used to getting calls from police. But two weeks ago, he got a call from a detective that stopped him cold.

    It came from a Boulder police detective in the murder investigation of JonBenet Ramsey.

    "I've had the evidence back here at my laboratory," Palenik said. "He called and said he was coming to pick it up, so I wondered what was going on."

    Days later, the arrest of John Mark Karr, who confessed to killing Ramsey, hit the news, and Palenik knew why police wanted what had sat in his lab for a decade.

    "We were examining the microscopic evidence from her body that was collected right after the murder," he said.

    Investigators had removed some particles collected from the 6-year-old's body and clothing by hand and some with tape. When it came to examining them, they turned to this tiny lab in Elgin – more than 1,000 miles away – where the best investigators in the world come for answers.

    In addition to the Ramsey murder, Palenik has worked on the Oklahoma City and Unabomber cases, the Green River murders, and the local murder of Jaclyn Dowaliby. His clients include the FBI.

    But despite Palenik's success, the JonBenet case has always bothered him.

    "To us it represents a failure in the end to be unsolved," he said.

    Now he hopes maybe a tiny particle he found could help close one of the biggest murder cases in America.
    Now look at how much work this forensic scientist actually did on this particle/dust evidence from this case--and we really haven't heard that much about it, have we:

    http://www.uiaa.org/uic/news/uicalumni/1003a.html

    FEATURE STORY — March/April 2010

    The Dust Detective

    Skip Palenik’s work behind the microscope has helped solve such hideous crimes as Seattle’s Green River murders


    By Sandra A. Swanson

    The crime wave terrified the Mary:(land residents of Montgomery County. Women were afraid to walk alone. They were scared to drive. The attacker broke into cars and hid in back or lurked in parking lots and surprised the women from behind. Then he raped them. He grew more aggressive and bolder. He began breaking into homes and waiting for his victims. He hid in a closet and raped a 13-year-old girl.

    The man left few clues. He covered his victims’ faces with shirts so they couldn’t identify him. The police had nothing to go on except for two athletic shirts the rapist had left behind. Ron Collins, a sergeant in the Montgomery County Dept. of Police and a member of an eight-person task force, grew desperate. Finally, he put in a call to Skip Palenik ’72 las, founder and president of Elgin-based Microtrace.

    Palenik is a forensic detective. He looks at very tiny specks of evidence—much tinier than a grain of sand—and identifies their source. He helped catch Seattle’s notorious Green River killer, who confessed to murdering 48 Seattle-area women, by tracing particles on the victims’ clothing to the killer’s workplace. He was summoned to help solve the murder of JonBenet Ramsey and wrote a 40-page report based on tiny packets of dust collected from her clothing.

    Microtrace is “the place to go when you can’t think of anything else to do with your evidence,” says Wayne Moorehead, senior forensic scientist at the Orange County Crime Lab in California and a man who’s known Palenik for more than 20 years. “Skip knows micro-techniques and books that people have long since forgotten about. His wealth of knowledge is just incredible.”

    [snip]
    40 pages? Wonder what he found? He kept it until Lacy asked for it back, when she arrested PERV Karr. How long did he have it?

    Thoughts?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  2. #2

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    Just FYI, here's an interesting 2002 Popular Science article on Skip Palenik with details about forensic science. It's a google link of basically magazine page images, I think, so it's got ads, etc., but keep scrolling to page 7, then pages 60 - 69:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=YgA...ramsey&f=false

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  3. #3
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    I'm ashamed to admit I haven't heard about this wonderful Forensic scientist Skip Palenik, until right this very minute KK. There were times when I felt I was finished posting on the JonBenét case and then I was drawn back for one reason or another. Thank you for posting this valuable history of Palenik's work. Much appreciated. I will read the Popular Science article tomorrow.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  4. #4

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    Well, for starters, he no doubt analyzed the dust and lint that was found on JBR's feet. If this is the case, then, LE should know where JBR was standing at some point just before being struck, no?

    Would there have been samples taken from various other places on her body and clothing? Where would you begin?

    This would be similar to looking for touch DNA, no?

    Did they scrape for dust off of the ligature to see if any special "outside the home" evidence was there?

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Well, for starters, he no doubt analyzed the dust and lint that was found on JBR's feet. If this is the case, then, LE should know where JBR was standing at some point just before being struck, no?

    Would there have been samples taken from various other places on her body and clothing? Where would you begin?

    This would be similar to looking for touch DNA, no?

    Did they scrape for dust off of the ligature to see if any special "outside the home" evidence was there?
    Questions to ponder....

    How I wish we knew the answers.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Questions to ponder....

    How I wish we knew the answers.
    Makes you wonder if ST knew the dust and lint was from her bathroom, thus, his theory of a bed wetting incident. Maybe I place too much emphasis on that dust and lint but I can't help but think this would let LE know the last place JBR was standing before being killed.

  7. #7

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    kk,
    You mentioned 40 pages in a previous post. I read through the links you provided and they are very interesting. But, I couldn't find any information in regards to his work on the JBR case. Did he present a 40 page report on the case?

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    kk,
    You mentioned 40 pages in a previous post. I read through the links you provided and they are very interesting. But, I couldn't find any information in regards to his work on the JBR case. Did he present a 40 page report on the case?
    Go back to my first post; in it are two quoted sections of articles. The second one has two parts I put in bold. The second one has the only info I've ever seen about the 40 page report. I have no idea what is in it.

    I'd like to know what was on her feet, as well. How about mold from that cellar room? How about carpet fibers from the basement? That kind of thing.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Go back to my first post; in it are two quoted sections of articles. The second one has two parts I put in bold. The second one has the only info I've ever seen about the 40 page report. I have no idea what is in it.

    I'd like to know what was on her feet, as well. How about mold from that cellar room? How about carpet fibers from the basement? That kind of thing.
    Okay, thanks, KK, I read the part about his 40 page report. A FORTY PAGE REPORT ON THE DUST... There must have been some significant information in a 40 page report!!! I guess there's something else I could add to the WHAT ARE YOU MOST SURE ABOUT THREAD:

    I'm 100% sure they know where JBR last stood.

  10. #10

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    Fellow posters, I'm bumping this thread since Kolar's book has since come out and since we now know the GJ voted to indict. I want to provide a quote about the Dust Doctor that I think is extremely relevant:

    Palenik has been vacuuming dust for 50 years. As a child, he spent hours emptying the family vacuum cleaner and analyzing its contents. He used a microscope to trace the origins of the debris: Did it come from the kitchen or bathroom? Did it belong to his mother or father? He didn’t know it then, but he was following a theory called Locard’s Exchange Principle. It’s the primary tenet known to every scientist in the forensic field: any contact leaves a trace. Or, as Palenik explains it: “Whenever two objects come into contact, there is always a transfer of material.”

    I have always been attracted to that statement, included in ST's book, where he states the coroner noticed dust and lint on JBR's feet when he entered the house and first viewed the body.

    Since Kolar has written the book, and is discussing the case, I propose that, if Tricia or anyone is able to interview him again, that Kolar be questioned about this Dust Doctor's report and about the dust that was on JBR's feet.
    Please note the bolded statement about the Dust Doctor. Evidently, he is able to determine whether dust comes from the kitchen or bathroom, etc.

    Lastly. How much lint and dust was on JBR's feet. If there was considerable lint and dust on the soles of JBR's feet, this tells me that the longjohns were not removed or put on JBR after she sustained the head wound. Tight leggings, being pulled off the feet, would pull off all that dust and lint or the vast majority of it.

    This lint and dust question, IMO, is of crucial importance and I'm sure that Kolar must have read the Dust Doctor's report.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Fellow posters, I'm bumping this thread since Kolar's book has since come out and since we now know the GJ voted to indict. I want to provide a quote about the Dust Doctor that I think is extremely relevant:

    Palenik has been vacuuming dust for 50 years. As a child, he spent hours emptying the family vacuum cleaner and analyzing its contents. He used a microscope to trace the origins of the debris: Did it come from the kitchen or bathroom? Did it belong to his mother or father? He didn’t know it then, but he was following a theory called Locard’s Exchange Principle. It’s the primary tenet known to every scientist in the forensic field: any contact leaves a trace. Or, as Palenik explains it: “Whenever two objects come into contact, there is always a transfer of material.”

    I have always been attracted to that statement, included in ST's book, where he states the coroner noticed dust and lint on JBR's feet when he entered the house and first viewed the body.

    Since Kolar has written the book, and is discussing the case, I propose that, if Tricia or anyone is able to interview him again, that Kolar be questioned about this Dust Doctor's report and about the dust that was on JBR's feet.
    Please note the bolded statement about the Dust Doctor. Evidently, he is able to determine whether dust comes from the kitchen or bathroom, etc.

    Lastly. How much lint and dust was on JBR's feet. If there was considerable lint and dust on the soles of JBR's feet, this tells me that the longjohns were not removed or put on JBR after she sustained the head wound. Tight leggings, being pulled off the feet, would pull off all that dust and lint or the vast majority of it.

    This lint and dust question, IMO, is of crucial importance and I'm sure that Kolar must have read the Dust Doctor's report.
    What an interesting and terrific post Learnin. Let's hope it will be acknowledged and Chief Kolar can provide the answer. I'm always learning something new when I read about this case. Thank you for bumping this thread. I will read through the posts!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  12. #12
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    Koldkase 17 October, 2010 POST #2

    Just FYI, here's an interesting 2002 Popular Science article on Skip Palenik with details about forensic science. It's a google link of basically magazine page images, I think, so it's got ads, etc., but keep scrolling to page 7, then pages 60 - 69:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=YgA...ramsey&f=false

    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    18 October, 2010

    I'm ashamed to admit I haven't heard about this wonderful Forensic scientist Skip Palenik, until right this very minute KK. There were times when I felt I was finished posting on the JonBenét case and then I was drawn back for one reason or another. Thank you for posting this valuable history of Palenik's work. Much appreciated. I will read the Popular Science article tomorrow.
    So pleased I responded here in 2010, KK. I'll do my best to go through it again.

    Thanks for your excellent contributions here!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.



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