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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Kitchen photos with window facing butler's pantry:

    The first two were taken after the Ramseys had moved out, I believe.





    This is a crime scene photo, taken that morning, I believe:

    What is the red or pink thing sitting on the chair that Patsys coat is hung? Or it looks rather like Patsys coat is hung on the second chair in. But what is that thing in the seat of the first chair? Can anybody tell?

  2. #62

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    I hope you are all still looking at this thread. Koldkase, maybe you, or someone, could answer some questions for me. I've been looking at some of the photo threads you so graciously posted, koldkase, and I have some comments/questions.

    First of all, concerning the breakfast dining room and the pineapple bowl. It looks as if the tea glass is empty. It looks as if the tea bag is used but the glass is empty. Now.

    1. If Burke's fingerprints are on that tea glass, and the glass is empty, we can conclude that Burke drank the tea, no? If this is true, then,

    2. Surely LE has questioned Burke about when he drank that tea, no? If they have, do we know what he has replied? It would be so important to know when he drank that tea.

    3. It sure likes milk is in that bowl with the pineapple. Do we know if, indeed, this was milk in that bowl? I believe it's very significant because, if milk, no one would eat pineapple out of milk that has been setting all day. In other words, I don't believe JBR would have taken pineapple from a bowl that evening, which would have been sitting all day. It would go along way, IMO, of establishing the fact that the pineapple and tea was prepared that evening.

    4. The position of the pineapple bowl and tea glass. It doesn't appear to be sitting in front of a chair. Wouldn't this mean that, whoever, prepared and placed the utensils, did not plan to sit at the table but was busy doing something else?

    5. Why didn't the person just leave the pineapple and tea in the kitchen where it was located, and not carry it into the breakfast room?

  3. #63

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    Maybe I'm off my rocker but I do wish someone would construct a model of the Ramsey home, somewhere, and set it up as it was at the time of the murder so people could get a proper feel of the logistics involved for whomever was involved in this crime.

    Try as I may, whenever I look at the crime scene photos, I simply can't get a good grasp of how everything lies. I remember looking at the crime scene photos of the house front and thinking the house sat well off the road. Whenever I saw it, in person, I was shocked to see how close the house is to the road....

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    I hope you are all still looking at this thread. Koldkase, maybe you, or someone, could answer some questions for me. I've been looking at some of the photo threads you so graciously posted, koldkase, and I have some comments/questions.

    First of all, concerning the breakfast dining room and the pineapple bowl. It looks as if the tea glass is empty. It looks as if the tea bag is used but the glass is empty. Now.

    1. If Burke's fingerprints are on that tea glass, and the glass is empty, we can conclude that Burke drank the tea, no? If this is true, then,

    2. Surely LE has questioned Burke about when he drank that tea, no? If they have, do we know what he has replied? It would be so important to know when he drank that tea.

    3. It sure likes milk is in that bowl with the pineapple. Do we know if, indeed, this was milk in that bowl? I believe it's very significant because, if milk, no one would eat pineapple out of milk that has been setting all day. In other words, I don't believe JBR would have taken pineapple from a bowl that evening, which would have been sitting all day. It would go along way, IMO, of establishing the fact that the pineapple and tea was prepared that evening.

    4. The position of the pineapple bowl and tea glass. It doesn't appear to be sitting in front of a chair. Wouldn't this mean that, whoever, prepared and placed the utensils, did not plan to sit at the table but was busy doing something else?

    5. Why didn't the person just leave the pineapple and tea in the kitchen where it was located, and not carry it into the breakfast room?
    Hey, Learnin. Hope you had a good holiday season.

    Very good questions you have, and I wish I had the answers. Unfortunately, Team Ramsey doesn't allow facts like those to be publicized. We only get the stuff they think they can spin into an intruder.

    First a caveat: my memory is suffering at this point in this case--and my life--so I can only tell you what I do remember.

    Burke's and Patsy fingerprints were located on the bowl. That much we know from books and from a screen shot someone took off of one of the crocumentaries; the screen shot was of a document stating as much.



    But as for fingerprints on the glass, spoon, or DNA even tested on those, and also as to the milk in the bowl, none of that has ever been openly revealed by anyone involved in the investigation or any other source that I know of, except for those observations and questions asked on the forums.

    The only person involved in the investigation I remember seeing discussing DNA being possibly lifted from the spoon or glass was Dr. Lee. He was asked about it--I think this was in Larry Schiller's documentary aired on the night Patsy was buried--and said he did not know of those being tested and he thought it would have been important if they were. Or something like that.

    Personally, I find it absolutely amazingly bad investigative work if they weren't tested for DNA and fingerprints.

    But personally, I find so much in this investigation deliberately and/or incompetently mishandled, it might be more amazing if they did do those critical tests.

    I mean, wouldn't you think in all Lacy's/Team Ramsey's pot banging and shrub shaking, they'd think to test those in case there was a match to that old "intruder" DNA?

    No?

    Then it stands to reason they either already tested those and they know whose DNA/prints are on them, and it ain't no intruder, or they're stupider than Inspector Clouseau.

    Or maybe they are just corrupt and don't want to know.

    Here are the collection of crime scene photos of the bowl of pineapple and glass in the FFJ case library:
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=9783

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    I hope you are all still looking at this thread. Koldkase, maybe you, or someone, could answer some questions for me. I've been looking at some of the photo threads you so graciously posted, koldkase, and I have some comments/questions.

    First of all, concerning the breakfast dining room and the pineapple bowl. It looks as if the tea glass is empty. It looks as if the tea bag is used but the glass is empty. Now.

    [snip]

    4. The position of the pineapple bowl and tea glass. It doesn't appear to be sitting in front of a chair. Wouldn't this mean that, whoever, prepared and placed the utensils, did not plan to sit at the table but was busy doing something else?

    5. Why didn't the person just leave the pineapple and tea in the kitchen where it was located, and not carry it into the breakfast room?
    I think these are very good questions, so I want to look at them a little closer.

    One thing to consider is that the breakfast table is a different height than the countertop in the kitchen.

    If these were set out for children, or by children, maybe that would answer why they were on that table rather than still in the kitchen.

    But if there is milk in the bowl, and if someone were going to actually eat with that spoon out of a bowl of milk and pineapple, why would he/she do that standing up? Why not place these in front of a chair? I don't know. Kids might do that. Or maybe a parent would without thinking about it. In a hurry. Or maybe there's another reason. I can't imagine that the BPD never asked all present that morning in the Ramsey home, awaiting the call from the "kidnappers", if they set out the bowl and tea, set it out, etc.

    I think someone here did an experiment with pineapple in a bowl once upon a time to see if it would get "milky" on its own after sitting out for a while. We know the bowl of pineapple was on that very table on Dec. 23rd, as the photo of that Christmas party shows it among the other edible items for the children to decorate the gingerbread houses. But I can't remember what the outcome of that was...maybe someone else does?

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  6. #66

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    And while you've got me on the topic of the screen shot of the document giving the fingerprint results of the pineapple bowl, what about that partial line at the bottom?



    ...[v/w/?]er the broken bas[e/o/s/?]...
    I'm just trying to remember what has been mentioned before in this case as being "broken"? I remember a broken Christmas ornament found somewhere...maybe in the basement? Anyone?

    And I am wondering if that last word is "base"...and what has a "base" in it? Basement? Notice the fourth letter is curved with no taller, upward stroke that I can see, so that leaves a limited amount of possibilities. Also, the fifth letter, which immediately follows without a space, has no taller, upward stroke, as I see it.

    I actually typed those possibilities out, and then lost that post as my server malfunctioned or something.

    Suffice it to say, compare the other letters in the typeface with the possibilities from what we can see. I did that, and all I have come up with is "...ver the broken base_...".

    Now speculating, that seems to me to end up being "...over the broken basement...."

    I'm not that good with puzzles, so maybe someone else is?

    But what could "...over the broken basement..." mean? "...over the broken basement..."...window?
    Last edited by koldkase; January 6, 2011, 2:24 pm at Thu Jan 6 14:24:14 UTC 2011.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  7. #67

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    One more thing I found regarding the kitchen windows discussed earlier in this thread:

    Turns out the kitchen window did access the outside. The butler's pantry on the outside wall of the kitchen appears to have been built one level down--remember the stairs on both sides? Whether it was built like that by the Ramseys during their remodel or that was original to the home, I don't know. But here is a photo, taken by jams some time after the Ramseys had moved out, which shows a longshot of the exterior butler's door and kitchen window.

    From ACandyRose.com:


    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    And while you've got me on the topic of the screen shot of the document giving the fingerprint results of the pineapple bowl, what about that partial line at the bottom?





    I'm just trying to remember what has been mentioned before in this case as being "broken"? I remember a broken Christmas ornament found somewhere...maybe in the basement? Anyone?

    And I am wondering if that last word is "base"...and what has a "base" in it? Basement? Notice the fourth letter is curved with no taller, upward stroke that I can see, so that leaves a limited amount of possibilities. Also, the fifth letter, which immediately follows without a space, has no taller, upward stroke, as I see it.

    I actually typed those possibilities out, and then lost that post as my server malfunctioned or something.

    Suffice it to say, compare the other letters in the typeface with the possibilities from what we can see. I did that, and all I have come up with is "...ver the broken base_...".

    Now speculating, that seems to me to end up being "...over the broken basement...."

    I'm not that good with puzzles, so maybe someone else is?

    But what could "...over the broken basement..." mean? "...over the broken basement..."...window?
    Hi, koldk.,
    Could it be "under the broken basement..."? I don't know.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    One more thing I found regarding the kitchen windows discussed earlier in this thread:

    Turns out the kitchen window did access the outside. The butler's pantry on the outside wall of the kitchen appears to have been built one level down--remember the stairs on both sides? Whether it was built like that by the Ramseys during their remodel or that was original to the home, I don't know. But here is a photo, taken by jams some time after the Ramseys had moved out, which shows a longshot of the exterior butler's door and kitchen window.

    From ACandyRose.com:

    Great find! I have been stumped by this for several years as it always looked as if there was sunlight coming through the kitchen windows and I couldn't figure out how this could be with the butler's pantry.....Good job!

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Hey, Learnin. Hope you had a good holiday season.

    Very good questions you have, and I wish I had the answers. Unfortunately, Team Ramsey doesn't allow facts like those to be publicized. We only get the stuff they think they can spin into an intruder.

    First a caveat: my memory is suffering at this point in this case--and my life--so I can only tell you what I do remember.

    Burke's and Patsy fingerprints were located on the bowl. That much we know from books and from a screen shot someone took off of one of the crocumentaries; the screen shot was of a document stating as much.



    But as for fingerprints on the glass, spoon, or DNA even tested on those, and also as to the milk in the bowl, none of that has ever been openly revealed by anyone involved in the investigation or any other source that I know of, except for those observations and questions asked on the forums.

    The only person involved in the investigation I remember seeing discussing DNA being possibly lifted from the spoon or glass was Dr. Lee. He was asked about it--I think this was in Larry Schiller's documentary aired on the night Patsy was buried--and said he did not know of those being tested and he thought it would have been important if they were. Or something like that.

    Personally, I find it absolutely amazingly bad investigative work if they weren't tested for DNA and fingerprints.

    But personally, I find so much in this investigation deliberately and/or incompetently mishandled, it might be more amazing if they did do those critical tests.

    I mean, wouldn't you think in all Lacy's/Team Ramsey's pot banging and shrub shaking, they'd think to test those in case there was a match to that old "intruder" DNA?

    No?

    Then it stands to reason they either already tested those and they know whose DNA/prints are on them, and it ain't no intruder, or they're stupider than Inspector Clouseau.

    Or maybe they are just corrupt and don't want to know.

    Here are the collection of crime scene photos of the bowl of pineapple and glass in the FFJ case library:
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=9783
    Had a wonderful holiday season, kk, thanks. Well, the document, shown in the photograph, states that Burke's fingerprints were on the tea glass. I think it's safe to say that means Burke drank the tea. I have to believe, with the pineapple evidence, Burke would have been asked, at some point, when he drank the tea. Makes me wonder why his answer wasn't included in ST's book. Since JBR's autopsy was performed the day after body was found, then, I would have to think BPD would have been interested in the timing of the pineapple, tea party, no?

    When was Burke first interviewed by the child psychologist?

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Sorry, it took me so long to comment on this but aren't these photos a little confusing. It looks like the middle one is some kind of reconstruction because it doesn't seem to fit with the other pictures of the kitchen...the counter top, for one, is a different color....or are these pictures of two different areas?
    They look the same to me. Different lighting, that's all. Seems to be a composite type material. Corian? Doesn't look like granite.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    Great find! I have been stumped by this for several years as it always looked as if there was sunlight coming through the kitchen windows and I couldn't figure out how this could be with the butler's pantry.....Good job!
    I agree. The neighbors reported seeing "strange moving lights" (obviously someone walking with the flashlight) in the R kitchen window. So there HAD to be a window to the outside. The 2 "windows" over the beds in JB's room were reported to be fake, though.

    As far as that statement- could it be "broken basement WINDOW"?
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.



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