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  1. #13

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    John said JonBenet was wrapped in the blanket "like a papoose." Fleet White never disputed that. If JonBenet were found hanging, either by her neck or her wrists, the blanket would have fallen off, or at the very least, been hanging loosely on her - not wrapped "like a papoose" which means bundled tightly.

    John Walsh may have been misinformed when he made the statement. Goodness knows there's been enough false and misleading information released by many people through the years.

  2. #14
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    Jul 2003
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    Canada
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    The older I become KK the more I forget. I do remember you disagreed with Delmar's theory about the garrote not being tied with the correct knots to allow for tightening, and I guess with his expertise on knots when he worked on the family farm, I did support his theory. However, I still like to read other poster's thoughts and read something I've never thought about before. We are all still assuming what happened KK. Hopefully some day we'll find out more.

    Thanks for the information about the bruising after death. I'm a bit rusty when it comes to the medical side of things. I don't think Burke was capable of a sex game, plus he didn't have the energy and strength to place JonBenét where she ended up.

    I never noticed your typos. I'm too busy making my own.

    So far there has been no interview with Burke. He's too well guarded !
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  3. #15
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    In the Federal Witness Protection Program
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    That is correct. A body will "bruise" after death, but it is not the same kind of bruising as in life. The postmortem bruising is caused by decomposition, as the blood vessels disintegrate and "bleed out". There is no swelling per se postmortem either, but bloating from gas buildup occurs, also from bacterial action related to decomposition. A coroner or any medical examiner can tell the difference.
    NOTHING indicates she was suspended. John Walsh is a good man, but he wasn't there to see JB in situ in the WC. She was "found" approx 12 hours after she died. By that time, livor mortis patterns are well formed and fixed, and had she been suspended, the livor patterns indicating that would still be visible.
    Instead, the livor patterns indicate she was placed on her back within 15 minutes or so of dying (during the period that livor was UNfixed or blanching), and left on her back in the WC, and not moved from that position till she was brought up.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  4. #16
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    Aug 2006
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    Oklahoma.....30 miles from the bombing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    John Walsh's statement has been a long debated issue, JoeJame. All I can say is that the autopsy photos do not indicate any "hanging," which has a specific pattern on a neck--commonly, the angle of the bruising is not evenly distributed and level across the neck, but appears at a severe slant, as the weight of the body and pull of the noose causes the head to fall to one side and the noose to pull up to one side under the ear. It's not that hard to determine, and since we have ample photographic evidence of the bruising on JB's neck, I believe the autopsy is proven to be accurate in its description of the strangulation and bruising left by it.

    Yes...unanswered questions, but I believe I recently came to realize more fully why that is--something that many of us know little about because we don't work in the corporate/gov't./legal world. I'd now bet money Lockheed Martin and Haddon's law firm have many "special counsels" known as "fixers". That's what I think happened in this case--someone hired to do damage control in the case of executives who have "a little legal problem" got an early morning call, went to work, and voila: here we are 14 years later, cover up successful, justice--epic fail.

    I've always suspected this, and now I believe it more than ever.
    I agree. I did work for the state at one point and dishonesty and cover up played a big role. It does everywhere, I guess...but as a child all the people I was taught to trust have let me down as I have gotten older. I have seen things that make me want to cry.
    Jamie

    Life is a journey, always learning what you can, always loving the best you can and realizing you are never alone.

  5. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
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    Canada
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    That is correct. A body will "bruise" after death, but it is not the same kind of bruising as in life. The postmortem bruising is caused by decomposition, as the blood vessels disintegrate and "bleed out". There is no swelling per se postmortem either, but bloating from gas buildup occurs, also from bacterial action related to decomposition. A coroner or any medical examiner can tell the difference.
    NOTHING indicates she was suspended. John Walsh is a good man, but he wasn't there to see JB in situ in the WC. She was "found" approx 12 hours after she died. By that time, livor mortis patterns are well formed and fixed, and had she been suspended, the livor patterns indicating that would still be visible.
    Instead, the livor patterns indicate she was placed on her back within 15 minutes or so of dying (during the period that livor was UNfixed or blanching), and left on her back in the WC, and not moved from that position till she was brought up.

    Thank you DeeDee for this excellent account. It's such a distressing report to read knowing it's just a little six year old girl. I'll print this and take my time going over it. I tend to rush over parts like this too quickly because it does upset me.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  6. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    John said JonBenet was wrapped in the blanket "like a papoose." Fleet White never disputed that. If JonBenet were found hanging, either by her neck or her wrists, the blanket would have fallen off, or at the very least, been hanging loosely on her - not wrapped "like a papoose" which means bundled tightly.

    John Walsh may have been misinformed when he made the statement. Goodness knows there's been enough false and misleading information released by many people through the years.
    Good point, Chero. While we haven't heard White speak publicly about this case, and while we have jams' "edited" version of his sealed sworn testimony in the Wolf lawsuit which makes no mention of any big discrepancy in what he saw in the basement when John "found" JB and what John told LE, we do have Thomas' book as an excellent source. Thomas certainly doesn't imply that there was any "hanging" or that White's story was significantly different from JR's, either, as I remember it.

    I think Walsh either misspoke or was misinformed, as well. Yes, there were plenty enough Team Ramsey spinners out there in TV Land to confuse the issues in this case, and Walsh is a busy man who actually does chase true criminals and predators, so he hardly has time to discern the truth from the well circulated Ramsey BS put out. That's why I give him a pass on this case.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
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    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  7. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    The older I become KK the more I forget. I do remember you disagreed with Delmar's theory about the garrote not being tied with the correct knots to allow for tightening, and I guess with his expertise on knots when he worked on the family farm, I did support his theory. However, I still like to read other poster's thoughts and read something I've never thought about before. We are all still assuming what happened KK. Hopefully some day we'll find out more.

    Thanks for the information about the bruising after death. I'm a bit rusty when it comes to the medical side of things. I don't think Burke was capable of a sex game, plus he didn't have the energy and strength to place JonBenét where she ended up.

    I never noticed your typos. I'm too busy making my own.

    So far there has been no interview with Burke. He's too well guarded !
    I always respected Delmar's committment to this case, Elle, and his work on it, as well. Sadly, he did get angry at me for asking questions about his theories, and I really am sorry that happened. I am a questioning kind of person, though, and always have been. I guess I would have had an easier life if I'd just let people tell me things and accepted them, but I always want to know the why, how, when, where, and who, and that's why I'm still here, I reckon. But I do get on people's nerves that way.

    I know he was a good friend of yours, and my deepest condolences for his recent passing.

    Yes, Burke is well guarded and I don't believe there is one person in that family who really wants this case investigated or solved now. I can only imagine the toll it took on the extended family, as well, so I won't judge. People are different, and I imagine if finding the "killer" would only cause them more pain, I can understand their reluctance if they really don't believe there was an intruder.

    On the other hand, if they think there was an intruder, I can't imagine they wouldn't carry that fear and sorrow with them every day. I'd be terrified for my own children, as well. They don't seem to be worried about that, though. Looking at their Facebook pages and pictures, they're all living quite well and happily, as Patsy said herself on the CBN interview within a few years of the murder.

    So be it. It's not my cross to bear. I'm just a citizen who felt the statement "there's someone out there" bore serious consideration once it was clear the Boulder justice system was never going to get this predator off the streets.

    Believing as I do that this predator is on a short list of suspects of my own, I've done all I can as a citizen in a Democracy which declares "We, the People" are this government and responsible for upholding the laws.

    Yet I will always think about this innocent child who was murdered and wonder how the monstrous atrocities acted on JonBenet that night and before that night, I believe, were never answered for by the molester and killer. It's a terrible indictment of us all.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  8. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    That is correct. A body will "bruise" after death, but it is not the same kind of bruising as in life. The postmortem bruising is caused by decomposition, as the blood vessels disintegrate and "bleed out". There is no swelling per se postmortem either, but bloating from gas buildup occurs, also from bacterial action related to decomposition. A coroner or any medical examiner can tell the difference.
    NOTHING indicates she was suspended. John Walsh is a good man, but he wasn't there to see JB in situ in the WC. She was "found" approx 12 hours after she died. By that time, livor mortis patterns are well formed and fixed, and had she been suspended, the livor patterns indicating that would still be visible.
    Instead, the livor patterns indicate she was placed on her back within 15 minutes or so of dying (during the period that livor was UNfixed or blanching), and left on her back in the WC, and not moved from that position till she was brought up.
    Thanks, DeeDee. You always explain things so well.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  9. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJame View Post
    I agree. I did work for the state at one point and dishonesty and cover up played a big role. It does everywhere, I guess...but as a child all the people I was taught to trust have let me down as I have gotten older. I have seen things that make me want to cry.
    JoeJame, I know what you mean. Realizing that the ideals we've been taught to believe in and which we try to live up to are really myths in reality is a hard lesson. Feels like I've been duped by the very institutions upon which I built my belief and value systems.

    That kind of leaves us with the feeling we're drifting in open sea without a rudder.

    Right now, I'm just floating, observing the skies and life and changing seas around me. The world will do what it will do. So must I.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    8,381

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    I always respected Delmar's committment to this case, Elle, and his work on it, as well. Sadly, he did get angry at me for asking questions about his theories, and I really am sorry that happened. I am a questioning kind of person, though, and always have been. I guess I would have had an easier life if I'd just let people tell me things and accepted them, but I always want to know the why, how, when, where, and who, and that's why I'm still here, I reckon. But I do get on people's nerves that way.

    I know he was a good friend of yours, and my deepest condolences for his recent passing.
    Thank you, KK. Like yourself, I'm full of questions too, KK, when it's something I'm deeply involved in. My husband tells me I analyze everything! It would be a strange world if we agreed with everyone "all of the time." I'm in touch with Delmar's nephew, and it's nice to have someone to talk to who knew him well. Like all the rest of us Delmar was keen to find out all he could, and more! Who knows (?) - maybe Delmar has had a discussion with llttle JonBenét herself and now knows the full story.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  11. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    That is correct. A body will "bruise" after death, but it is not the same kind of bruising as in life. The postmortem bruising is caused by decomposition, as the blood vessels disintegrate and "bleed out". There is no swelling per se postmortem either, but bloating from gas buildup occurs, also from bacterial action related to decomposition. A coroner or any medical examiner can tell the difference.
    NOTHING indicates she was suspended. John Walsh is a good man, but he wasn't there to see JB in situ in the WC. She was "found" approx 12 hours after she died. By that time, livor mortis patterns are well formed and fixed, and had she been suspended, the livor patterns indicating that would still be visible.
    Instead, the livor patterns indicate she was placed on her back within 15 minutes or so of dying (during the period that livor was UNfixed or blanching), and left on her back in the WC, and not moved from that position till she was brought up.
    Excellent, DeeDee. I think you've more than proven the body was placed on the back shortly after death and remained there until found.

  12. #24

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    kk,

    1. I don't know how anyone, who has more than just a passing knowledge about this case, can let it go completely because it involved a precious little child; because of the injustice involved; because of the parents who thought more of protecting their hide than assisting law enforcement; because of the mysteries of the case (where was she killed, why was she killed, etc.etc.)

    2. I think it never came to justice because of a DA's office who did not want to take on the powerful attorneys team Ramsey was able to put together and; because Lou Smit was able to introduce enough doubt in the minds of those who were charged with seeing justice done.

    But I'm perplexed as to why FW has not told his side of the story. Obviously, FW didn't think justice was being served but, other than demanding a special prosecutor, has remained silent. This, more than any other thing, makes me wonder if something more sinister is involved. Is he simply afraid of facing a lawsuit or is he afraid of something worse? It seems to me that he couldn't be sued for stating his reactions to what he witnessed and by stating the things and behavior he did witness...



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