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  1. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    kk,

    But I'm perplexed as to why FW has not told his side of the story. Obviously, FW didn't think justice was being served but, other than demanding a special prosecutor, has remained silent. This, more than any other thing, makes me wonder if something more sinister is involved. Is he simply afraid of facing a lawsuit or is he afraid of something worse? It seems to me that he couldn't be sued for stating his reactions to what he witnessed and by stating the things and behavior he did witness...
    I am perplexed with Fleet White too, Learnin! Why hasn't he opened his mouth?
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  2. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    I am perplexed with Fleet White too, Learnin! Why hasn't he opened his mouth?
    We'll never know. But with JR still around and LW still on the case as the R defense lawyer, a lawsuit is a big reason why. But I also think that he may be concerned that somehow they'd try to (once again) finger HIM for it. He did touch the tape and as he also searched the basement, his prints are all over it. He touched the window glass and the suitcase, too.
    Now, I don't think they'd find his prints on the note and there is no DNA linking him to the body or the crime scene, but I am sure LW would find a way. At the very least, it'd cost him a fortune to defend himself and likely ruin his (and his family's) life again.
    The other thing is that he may very well believe one of the Rs killed JB and they covered it up but he can't PROVE it. If he stated anything linking the Rs to the murder, he'd get hit with a defamation lawsuit unless he could PROVE it.
    This is my Constitutionally protected OPINION. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee View Post
    We'll never know. But with JR still around and LW still on the case as the R defense lawyer, a lawsuit is a big reason why. But I also think that he may be concerned that somehow they'd try to (once again) finger HIM for it. He did touch the tape and as he also searched the basement, his prints are all over it. He touched the window glass and the suitcase, too.
    Now, I don't think they'd find his prints on the note and there is no DNA linking him to the body or the crime scene, but I am sure LW would find a way. At the very least, it'd cost him a fortune to defend himself and likely ruin his (and his family's) life again.
    The other thing is that he may very well believe one of the Rs killed JB and they covered it up but he can't PROVE it. If he stated anything linking the Rs to the murder, he'd get hit with a defamation lawsuit unless he could PROVE it.
    Thanks DeeDee for your input. You're probably right!
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learnin View Post
    kk,

    1. I don't know how anyone, who has more than just a passing knowledge about this case, can let it go completely because it involved a precious little child; because of the injustice involved; because of the parents who thought more of protecting their hide than assisting law enforcement; because of the mysteries of the case (where was she killed, why was she killed, etc.etc.)

    2. I think it never came to justice because of a DA's office who did not want to take on the powerful attorneys team Ramsey was able to put together and; because Lou Smit was able to introduce enough doubt in the minds of those who were charged with seeing justice done.

    But I'm perplexed as to why FW has not told his side of the story. Obviously, FW didn't think justice was being served but, other than demanding a special prosecutor, has remained silent. This, more than any other thing, makes me wonder if something more sinister is involved. Is he simply afraid of facing a lawsuit or is he afraid of something worse? It seems to me that he couldn't be sued for stating his reactions to what he witnessed and by stating the things and behavior he did witness...
    I agree with you about us not being able to let it go.

    Also, I think you're right about the DA not wanting to take the case to trial. But I think Lou Smit was a means to an end when Hunter hired him AND other members of Team Ramsey, we later found out, to deliberately subvert the prosecution from the start. I think Hunter needed to find "intruder evidence" rather than use the damning evidence against the Ramseys to take the case to trial. I have ideas about why he went to such lengths as to obstruct the investigation by refusing common subpoenas for critical evidence, etc. But you know all that, so I won't repeat.

    As for Fleet White's zipped lips, I agree with DeeDee, but I think one huge factor also was that initially White believed the case would be solved by LE. Most of us did, after all. When that didn't happen, it still took years to realize it never would. What a huge burden to experience what the Whites have, I can only imagine. Being "responsible" to the point of speaking out against people with whom you were so close, when the very professionals who are supposed to be doing their duty to solve the case through the system have deliberately buried it, is probably too much in monster of a public case such as this.

    And it only got worse for the Whites, remember. There are still people so desperate to blame anyone but the Ramseys they still attack the Whites, completely ignoring the facts about the bad character of those who have spent considerable time and energy trying to ruin the Whites forever--led by Team Ramsey, with JR still banging that malicious libel drum as recently as last year to the media.

    Personally, I think that the Whites have accepted that JonBenet is dead and nothing will change that. Maybe they even believe it was Burke, and so have found a way to forgive and move on, since he was a child they also knew and loved.

    Also, remember that the Whites were fully aware and angry at Alex Hunter for what he did to them. When you lose faith in the justice system because you've seen a man like Hunter, with such a serious charge of duty, abuse his power so personally as to deliberately harm innocent bystanders, where do you go for justice after that? The governor? Right. Remember where that went.

    Then to have someone as unsavory, incompetent, and seamy as Darnay Hoffman pull you into a law suit on behalf of someone you don't even know, not to mention being jailed for 30 days at Thanksgiving for refusing to answer a subpoena in yet another bogus trial with trumped up charges Hunter and Team Ramsey promoted against someone ELSE you don't know...the Whites have been really put through it.

    I think the Whites realized long ago they were fighting a losing war. So maybe they cut their losses and put their faith in Other Hands.

    And why not? Alex Hunter has paid a thousand fold for his corrupt soul.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

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  5. #29
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    I guess I can now let the Fleet White query blow away in the wind KK, fully understanding why! Can I get away with saying because of all the sob's Ramsey connections?
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    I guess I can now let the Fleet White query blow away in the wind KK, fully understanding why! Can I get away with saying because of all the sob's Ramsey connections?
    Yes, that's the nut of it all, really.

    I've been doing a little research on something I never knew about before, not in any cogent way, at least, but now think it may truly explain how this case was so quickly buried, probably before 911 was ever called.

    I recently had an "Aha!" moment when watching that George Clooney movie for the third or fourth time: Michael Clayton. I saw it a couple of years ago when it first came out on DVD, but it's one of those movies where you don't really know what's happening until the very end. Because the "legal/corporate" world depicted in it is so foreign to me, I was more confused than anything the first run through. So that's why it didn't "dawn" on me then.

    But the movie has been on TV now and again, and I've watched parts of it as I came across it sometimes. Then a couple of weeks ago I sat down and watched it in full, and knowing the "players" in it and their names and positions and the plot, I finally followed it all the way through. That's when it made complete sense for me: the protagonist, Michael Clayton, is a "fixer" for a large, powerful law firm, and he's actually called in to "fix" a mess one of the law firm's partners has gotten himself into because he's bipolar and having a manic episode.

    Then came the revelation: the "fixer" is not actually fiction, it's a real position law firms actually hire lawyers to fill, lawyers who in fact are "middle men" who bring in "others" to clean up whatever mess some high powered company exec has gotten him/herself into. Then I remembered that Quinton Tarentino movie, Pulp Fiction, and realized that a character in that movie was also a "fixer". (It's a very bloody movie, btw, so don't watch it to see this fictional guy unless you have a very strong constitution.)

    Well, those are movies, of course, and for all I knew, it was all made up stuff. So of course...GOOGLE! And I found some sites that in fact do discuss this position in law firms. It's not that open a topic, as this is obviously something the rich and powerful don't advertise, do they? And especially not the law firms they pay lots of money to hide just such things.

    Now imagine Lockheed Martin: one of the most powerful defense contractors in the world, does anyone really believe that with all the military weaponry they build and sell worldwide, no one ever goes astray?

    Oh, they go astray, all right. Lockheed Martin was in fact in trouble in the 1990s for some illegal dealings and they got caught, too. It took something like 10 years for it all to play out on the international stage, but they actually were exposed for it.

    You know, I'll look some of this stuff back up for you, as it's been a long time since I read all of this, so my memory is vague. Suffice it to say that I'm now pondering who might have been the "fixer" in the Ramsey house that night. Not "physically" there, but on the phone, guiding, consulting? And that's why those phone records were never subpoenaed, and one cell phone record, "turned over" by Team Ramsey A YEAR LATER, for the month of Dec. '96 had not one call on it the whole month, and no one in Boulder LE has ever seen the months before or after--well, not related to this case, anyway.

    Remember Patsy told that wild story to LE about that phone being lost that was so obviously a bunch of lies, so full of silly "details" it takes a really gullible person to even imagine there's any truth to it. Now imagine if LE--as in Smit working for Hunter--or even Team Ramsey were actually LOOKING for an intruder/child killer, they'd NEVAH think to GO AFTER that cell phone and its records in case the INTRUDER actually found it and used it and that could be THE LEAD they so publicly said they wanted. Who would buy that? A MORON could figure out tracking those phone records MIGHT be important! But NOT ONE PERSON in the DA's Office or on Team Ramsey, not even Lou "Legend in his own mind" Smit, not all those "brilliant" investigators through 14 years has ever thought, oh, maybe we should look at THE MISSING/LOST CELL PHONE RECORDS. All these years later, and NOT ONE INVESTIGATOR OR MEMBER OF TEAM RAMSEY HAS SAID, GET THOSE RECORDS AND INVESTIGATE!

    Only Steve Thomas has ever even brought it up. Does that make sense to ANYONE looking for the ACTUAL TRUTH in this case?

    Spade told us there was a trail leading all the way to the White House stopping the phone records from being subpoenaed. Since Spade never would/could tell us his source, and since most of us live in a world where that's not something we can fathom without proof, I've never been able to say, oh, that's it! But most of what Spade revealed to us in this case turned out to be spot on. And we do know that Haddon was linked to the White House as counsel to powerful Washington politicians--Gary Hart? Bill Clinton? (Sorry, I'll have to look that up again, as well.) Bynum, who worked for Access Graphics and therefore Lockheed Martin, did call Haddon's firm pronto. Within HOURS of the body being found, Bynum put that critical connection in place and PIs were on the ground getting "statements" from witnesses by the next day, the Ramseys had separate lawyers within days, and neither were talking to LE about anything by the evening of Dec. 26th.

    I will always believe Hunter was working with Team Ramsey all along, because I will never stop being astonished that he not only blocked the collection of the Ramsey phone records and clothing early on, but he hired Smit and other future Team Ramsey private detectives, giving them the PowerPoint which in fact belonged to the People because Smit created it from case evidence while working for Hunter, and then went on the record defending the Ramseys before it was all over.

    Steve Thomas going public with his resignation letter forced the Governor's hand, but all the Governor did was hand it back to Hunter with one difference--Hunter was ordered to hire a special prosecutor, and Michael Kane was the lawyer who almost ruined Team Ramsey's plan. But Hunter easily managed to subvert the Grand Jury--it was always going to be Hunter's decision, after all--and hand Smit the weapon that would destroy the case for good, and here we are.

    Alex Hunter is the poster child for corruption of government at the level of the court system, IMO. I will always believe that Lockheed Martin was the power that ran this injustice train.

    And now I know that our government is as corrupt as every other country in the world has known for decades. We, the People, are just the last to know. I recently heard an author speak while promoting a book, a woman of international experience, knowledge, and expertise (whose name, of course, I can't remember...sigh) who said, in answer to a question about corruption in government, "First, it's a given that all governments are corrupt...." Of course, I thought, how did I never figure this out until now?

    Talk about S L O W....

    Look, these are just my thoughts, and I know nothing, except that it's hard to believe with all the evidence against the Ramseys that they just got "lucky" for so many years with so many DAs in Boulder working so hard NOT to prosecute this murder, magically rendering it unprosecutable for all time.

    So now I find myself wondering: who was "the fixer" in this case? The behind-the-scenes, invisible hand guiding players into place, manipulating them...? Bynum? Someone whose name we don't know?

    Well, I'm rambling now and have to go, but I'll try to get back and clear up some of this with some links. And sorry for typos, misspellings, don't have time to edit.

    And aren't you sorry you asked, Elle?
    Last edited by koldkase; December 11, 2010, 1:37 pm at Sat Dec 11 13:37:50 UTC 2010.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Within HOURS of the body being found, Bynum put that critical connection in place and PIs were on the ground getting "statements" from witnesses by the next day, the Ramseys had separate lawyers within days, and neither were talking to LE about anything by the evening of Dec. 26th.

    ...So now I find myself wondering: who was "the fixer" in this case? The behind-the-scenes, invisible hand guiding players into place, manipulating them...? Bynum? Someone whose name we don't know?
    I think Thomas said that Fleet White was questioned by Ramsey investigators the afternoon of the 26th, the same afternoon the body was found. White kept records of everything and had a dated note.

    I just saw Michael Clayton. It scared the pants off me. Maybe Hunter didn't want to wind up dead.

  8. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase View Post
    Yes, that's the nut of it all, really.

    I've been doing a little research on something I never knew about before, not in any cogent way, at least, but now think it may truly explain how this case was so quickly buried, probably before 911 was ever called.

    I recently had an "Aha!" moment when watching that George Clooney movie for the third or fourth time: Michael Clayton. I saw it a couple of years ago when it first came out on DVD, but it's one of those movies where you don't really know what's happening until the very end. Because the "legal/corporate" world depicted in it is so foreign to me, I was more confused than anything the first run through. So that's why it didn't "dawn" on me then.

    But the movie has been on TV now and again, and I've watched parts of it as I came across it sometimes. Then a couple of weeks ago I sat down and watched it in full, and knowing the "players" in it and their names and positions and the plot, I finally followed it all the way through. That's when it made complete sense for me: the protagonist, Michael Clayton, is a "fixer" for a large, powerful law firm, and he's actually called in to "fix" a mess one of the law firm's partners has gotten himself into because he's bipolar and having a manic episode.

    Then came the revelation: the "fixer" is not actually fiction, it's a real position law firms actually hire lawyers to fill, lawyers who in fact are "middle men" who bring in "others" to clean up whatever mess some high powered company exec has gotten him/herself into. Then I remembered that Quinton Tarentino movie, Pulp Fiction, and realized that a character in that movie was also a "fixer". (It's a very bloody movie, btw, so don't watch it to see this fictional guy unless you have a very strong constitution.)

    Well, those are movies, of course, and for all I knew, it was all made up stuff. So of course...GOOGLE! And I found some sites that in fact do discuss this position in law firms. It's not that open a topic, as this is obviously something the rich and powerful don't advertise, do they? And especially not the law firms they pay lots of money to hide just such things.

    Now imagine Lockheed Martin: one of the most powerful defense contractors in the world, does anyone really believe that with all the military weaponry they build and sell worldwide, no one ever goes astray?

    Oh, they go astray, all right. Lockheed Martin was in fact in trouble in the 1990s for some illegal dealings and they got caught, too. It took something like 10 years for it all to play out on the international stage, but they actually were exposed for it.

    You know, I'll look some of this stuff back up for you, as it's been a long time since I read all of this, so my memory is vague. Suffice it to say that I'm now pondering who might have been the "fixer" in the Ramsey house that night. Not "physically" there, but on the phone, guiding, consulting? And that's why those phone records were never subpoenaed, and one cell phone record, "turned over" by Team Ramsey A YEAR LATER, for the month of Dec. '96 had not one call on it the whole month, and no one in Boulder LE has ever seen the months before or after--well, not related to this case, anyway.

    Remember Patsy told that wild story to LE about that phone being lost that was so obviously a bunch of lies, so full of silly "details" it takes a really gullible person to even imagine there's any truth to it. Now imagine if LE--as in Smit working for Hunter--or even Team Ramsey were actually LOOKING for an intruder/child killer, they'd NEVAH think to GO AFTER that cell phone and its records in case the INTRUDER actually found it and used it and that could be THE LEAD they so publicly said they wanted. Who would buy that? A MORON could figure out tracking those phone records MIGHT be important! But NOT ONE PERSON in the DA's Office or on Team Ramsey, not even Lou "Legend in his own mind" Smit, not all those "brilliant" investigators through 14 years has ever thought, oh, maybe we should look at THE MISSING/LOST CELL PHONE RECORDS. All these years later, and NOT ONE INVESTIGATOR OR MEMBER OF TEAM RAMSEY HAS SAID, GET THOSE RECORDS AND INVESTIGATE!

    Only Steve Thomas has ever even brought it up. Does that make sense to ANYONE looking for the ACTUAL TRUTH in this case?

    Spade told us there was a trail leading all the way to the White House stopping the phone records from being subpoenaed. Since Spade never would/could tell us his source, and since most of us live in a world where that's not something we can fathom without proof, I've never been able to say, oh, that's it! But most of what Spade revealed to us in this case turned out to be spot on. And we do know that Haddon was linked to the White House as counsel to powerful Washington politicians--Gary Hart? Bill Clinton? (Sorry, I'll have to look that up again, as well.) Bynum, who worked for Access Graphics and therefore Lockheed Martin, did call Haddon's firm pronto. Within HOURS of the body being found, Bynum put that critical connection in place and PIs were on the ground getting "statements" from witnesses by the next day, the Ramseys had separate lawyers within days, and neither were talking to LE about anything by the evening of Dec. 26th.

    I will always believe Hunter was working with Team Ramsey all along, because I will never stop being astonished that he not only blocked the collection of the Ramsey phone records and clothing early on, but he hired Smit and other future Team Ramsey private detectives, giving them the PowerPoint which in fact belonged to the People because Smit created it from case evidence while working for Hunter, and then went on the record defending the Ramseys before it was all over.

    Steve Thomas going public with his resignation letter forced the Governor's hand, but all the Governor did was hand it back to Hunter with one difference--Hunter was ordered to hire a special prosecutor, and Michael Kane was the lawyer who almost ruined Team Ramsey's plan. But Hunter easily managed to subvert the Grand Jury--it was always going to be Hunter's decision, after all--and hand Smit the weapon that would destroy the case for good, and here we are.

    Alex Hunter is the poster child for corruption of government at the level of the court system, IMO. I will always believe that Lockheed Martin was the power that ran this injustice train.

    And now I know that our government is as corrupt as every other country in the world has known for decades. We, the People, are just the last to know. I recently heard an author speak while promoting a book, a woman of international experience, knowledge, and expertise (whose name, of course, I can't remember...sigh) who said, in answer to a question about corruption in government, "First, it's a given that all governments are corrupt...." Of course, I thought, how did I never figure this out until now?

    Talk about S L O W....

    Look, these are just my thoughts, and I know nothing, except that it's hard to believe with all the evidence against the Ramseys that they just got "lucky" for so many years with so many DAs in Boulder working so hard NOT to prosecute this murder, magically rendering it unprosecutable for all time.

    So now I find myself wondering: who was "the fixer" in this case? The behind-the-scenes, invisible hand guiding players into place, manipulating them...? Bynum? Someone whose name we don't know?

    Well, I'm rambling now and have to go, but I'll try to get back and clear up some of this with some links. And sorry for typos, misspellings, don't have time to edit.

    And aren't you sorry you asked, Elle?
    Bravo! No, KK I am not sorry I asked. This is an excellent post full of realistic truths If I were you, I would very quickly add to your post above "this post should not be copied anywhere!" I am being serious here! Your post would be an excellent blueprint for a movie. Wish I had written this!

    If you do add this notice to your post, I will delete it from my post here. It is one of the best posts I've ever read here!
    To me, it's all true!

    P.S. Yes! There was a fixer in the JonBenét Ramsey case!
    Last edited by Elle_1; December 11, 2010, 8:45 pm at Sat Dec 11 20:45:21 UTC 2010.
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by fr brown View Post
    I think Thomas said that Fleet White was questioned by Ramsey investigators the afternoon of the 26th, the same afternoon the body was found. White kept records of everything and had a dated note.

    I just saw Michael Clayton. It scared the pants off me. Maybe Hunter didn't want to wind up dead.
    Well, if that scared you and you have a strong constitution, here's a real nightmare--all the more because it's probably truer than we even want to imagine: The Lords of War, starring Nicholas Cage in one of his best performances, is about the International business of buying and selling weapons for war. I think it's worth watching in context to this case because Lockheed Martin is in that very business. If there's any truth behind this fiction, it really shines a different light into the world of LM.

    And according to our D.E.A. (Drug Enforcement Admin.) there's more than a little truth in this movie. Here's the real arms dealer it was based upon--allegedly: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/07/wo.../07dealer.html

    And this article in The Christian Science Monitor asks some interesting questions about the recent U.S. extradition of alleged Russian arms dealer Bout from Thailand to the U.S. under the cover of darkness and protest from the Russian gov't.: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europ...ed-to-America/

    Interesting, to say the least.

    As for Hunter fearing for his life, maybe White didn't want to end up dead, either. He, more than anyone, knew exactly how bad this business of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey went for anyone not on Team Ramsey. What DA publicly implicates an entire family in a "child sex ring" with no investigation, much less an indictment? That's what Hunter did to the Whites in The Daily Camera. Unfreakingbelievable. Either I woke up in nazi Germany one day and I missed the memo, or this was yet another astonishing red flag waving over this case.

    The thing about Hunter is he had a well-worn record of "doing deals" with criminals, especially killers in infamous murder cases involving the rich and powerful. I don't think anyone had to threaten him; he already knew how it was going to go when he got that first call, I'd guess.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elle_1 View Post
    Bravo! No, KK I am not sorry I asked. This is an excellent post full of realistic truths If I were you, I would very quickly add to your post above "this post should not be copied anywhere!" I am being serious here! Your post would be an excellent blueprint for a movie. Wish I had written this!

    If you do add this notice to your post, I will delete it from my post here. It is one of the best posts I've ever read here!
    To me, it's all true!

    P.S. Yes! There was a fixer in the JonBenét Ramsey case!
    Bless your heart, Elle, you are such a gift to this forum. Whatever we write, you are there to encourage us. I hope you know how much your support means to me.

    As for copyright protection: I wrote it, therefore I own it, and it's published here with a date, so I'm not worried about that. I also saved it in my files, so if someone steals it and makes a movie from it, then I can sue and woohoo! The drinks are on me!

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  11. #35

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    So let's see if I can find those old articles on Lockheed Martin's legal troubles.

    This one from the L.A. Times in 1995 has a bit of company background, as well as info on LM's troubles in Texas...Ft. Worth. Didn't the Ramseys go to Texas the summer before JonBenet died? Was Ft. Worth mentioned? We always wondered what they did in Texas, when Patsy was reported to have come back home with that giant diamond and JonBenet seemed "changed" to some friends.

    Probe Launched Into Lockheed

    Defense: A grand jury is investigating possible illegal payments made to win foreign contracts.

    August 31, 1995|From Times Staff and Wire Reports

    FT. WORTH — A federal grand jury in Texas is looking into whether Lockheed Martin Corp. made illegal payments to foreign consultants to win fighter aircraft orders.

    Lockheed Martin's Ft. Worth Co. unit, which makes the F-16, is gathering records related to the company's consultant agreements to turn over to a grand jury in Dallas, according to a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

    "The subpoena is very broad," said Joseph Stout, a spokesman for the division, which received the subpoena in July. "There is no allegation of any wrongdoing and we're not aware of anything improper being done."

    The government asked for documents from January, 1990, to the present, Stout said, indicating that the probe involves General Dynamics Corp. as well.

    General Dynamics, which sold the plant in Ft. Worth to Lockheed Corp. in March, 1993, for $1.5 billion, also received a subpoena. Lockheed merged with Martin Marietta Corp. last March.

    General Dynamics, based in Falls Church, Va., is turning over "everything regarding our agreements with other countries" to the grand jury, company spokeswoman Norine Lyons said, adding that the company had done nothing wrong.

    "We're confident that when the government reviews [the documents], it won't find anything inappropriate," she said.

    A spokeswoman for the U.S. attorney's office for the northern district of Texas declined to comment.

    The F-16 has been the Air Force's main fighter jet since the mid-1970s, although Lockheed Martin now depends on foreign governments for business.

    Since 1990, Lockheed Martin has sold the single-engine F-16 to governments of Egypt, Portugal, Turkey, Thailand, South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan. The government's subpoenas do not say which sales it is investigating, Stout said.

    "We don't really know exactly what the intent of the subpoena is," he said.

    Lockheed Martin's filing says the company is also the subject of another federal grand jury probe in U.S. District Court for Central California, which is based in Los Angeles.

    In that case, the grand jury subpoenaed documents related to the "company's business in Korea," according to the filing. But Lockheed Martin did not specify if it was referring to North or South Korea or the type of business.

    The company declined to comment on the nature of that subpoena.

    Lockheed has had legal problems with overseas sales before.

    Most recently, a former Lockheed executive, Suleiman Nassar, pleaded guilty to bribing an Egyptian politician to arrange the sale of three C-130 transport planes for $79 million in 1989. Nassar, who spent a year as a fugitive before surrendering to authorities in July, is awaiting sentencing.

    In January, the company agreed to pay $24.8 million--the maximum penalty allowed under the law--to settle the charges. The company pleaded guilty to conspiring to violate the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and to falsifying its books. Another former executive also pleaded guilty to a related misdemeanor charge.
    http://articles.latimes.com/1995-08-...9_1_grand-jury

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  12. #36

    Default

    Here's a wiki page describing the decades long history of bribery practiced by Lockheed with foreign gov't. officials going back to the 1950s:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals

    I found this particularly interesting, in the context of discussing the movie about arms dealers, Lords of War:

    Saudi Arabia

    Between 1970 and 1975, Lockheed paid Saudi Arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi $106 million in commissions. Khashoggi himself is said to have made hundreds of millions from other corporations in this period, however as Khashoggi was a mediator for bribes, his payment included money destined for officials. His commissions started at 2.5% + and eventually rose to as much as 15%. Khashoggi "became for all practical purposes a marketing arm of Lockheed. Adnan would provide not only an entree but strategy, constant advice, and analysis," according to Max Helzel, then vice president of Lockheed's international marketing.[15]

    Aftermath

    Lockheed chairman of the board Daniel Haughton and vice chairman and president Carl Kotchian resigned from their posts on February 13, 1976. The scandal also played a part in the formulation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act which President Jimmy Carter signed into law on December 19, 1977, which made it illegal for American persons and entities to bribe foreign government officials, which, additionally, may violate The Logan Act.[16]

    According to Ben Rich, director of Lockheed's Skunk Works:

    “ Lockheed executives admitted paying millions in bribes over more than a decade to the Dutch (Prince Bernhard, husband of Queen Juliana, in particular), to key Japanese and West German politicians, to Italian officials and generals, and to other highly placed figures from Hong Kong to Saudi Arabia, in order to get them to buy our airplanes. Kelly (Clarence "Kelly" Johnson, first team leader of the Lockheed Skunk Works) was so sickened by these revelations that he had almost quit, even though the top Lockheed management implicated in the scandal resigned in disgrace.[17]
    And this article is directly related to the lessons learned when company officials were caught in those bribery scandals: they moved to "independent contractors" who, when caught doing arms deals with illegal "foreign factions" or gov'ts., are the ones indicted--NOT the companies from whom they get the weaponry:

    http://apogeeconsulting.biz/index.ph...news&Itemid=55

    Government Contractors and the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act

    Tuesday, 26 January 2010 00:00 administrator

    The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act of 1977 (15 U.S.C. 78 et seg, as amended) (aka the FCPA) applies to any SEC-registered entity doing business outside the United States. It has two main provisions—(1) an anti-bribery provision (which is enforced by the DOJ and gets most of the attention), and (2) a books-and-records provision, which is enforced by the SEC.

    [snip]

    Why is the FCPA [Foreign Corrupt Practices Act] of interest to aerospace/defense companies? Well, the FCPA was originally enacted—at least in part—in reaction to the news that Lockheed (now called Lockheed Martin) had bribed foreign officials to the tune of roughly $22 million to help sell its planes. According to this article, the company routinely engaged in bribery of foreign officials in countries such as West Germany, Italy, Japan, and Saudi Arabia. News of the bribes led to the resignations of Lockheed’s Chairman of the Board of Directors as well as its Vice Chair and President. In addition, of course, A&D companies sell their commercial and military goods and services globally, often through local agents and subcontractors, meaning they are vulnerable to the making of corrupt payments.

    [snip]

    The DOJ notes that “This ongoing investigation is the first large-scale use of undercover law enforcement techniques to uncover FCPA violations and the largest action ever undertaken by the Justice Department against individuals for FCPA violations.” In addition, the announcement states that “Each of the indictments allege that the defendants conspired to violate the FCPA, conspired to engage in money laundering, and engaged in substantive violations of the FCPA. The indictments also seek criminal forfeiture of the defendants’ ill gotten gains. The maximum prison sentence for the conspiracy count and for each FCPA count is five years. The maximum sentence for the money laundering conspiracy charge is 20 years in prison.”

    The DOJ announcement continues an annoying trend we noticed, where individuals are named as alleged perpetrators, but the companies that employ them (or that they head) are not named. It takes some sleuthing to match individuals to companies—sleuthing that the group Project on Government Oversight (POGO) was willing to undertake. See the results of their efforts here. POGO’s oft-maligned Federal Contractor Misconduct Database shows sixteen aerospace/defense contractors that have either been charged with, or pleaded guilty to, FCPA violations. [snip]
    Last edited by koldkase; December 12, 2010, 3:20 pm at Sun Dec 12 15:20:26 UTC 2010.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.



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