Anybody see this National Enquirer?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Karen, Oct 24, 2010.

  1. Karen

    Karen Member

    What is the red or pink thing sitting on the chair that Patsys coat is hung? Or it looks rather like Patsys coat is hung on the second chair in. But what is that thing in the seat of the first chair? Can anybody tell?
     
  2. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I hope you are all still looking at this thread. Koldkase, maybe you, or someone, could answer some questions for me. I've been looking at some of the photo threads you so graciously posted, koldkase, and I have some comments/questions.

    First of all, concerning the breakfast dining room and the pineapple bowl. It looks as if the tea glass is empty. It looks as if the tea bag is used but the glass is empty. Now.

    1. If Burke's fingerprints are on that tea glass, and the glass is empty, we can conclude that Burke drank the tea, no? If this is true, then,

    2. Surely LE has questioned Burke about when he drank that tea, no? If they have, do we know what he has replied? It would be so important to know when he drank that tea.

    3. It sure likes milk is in that bowl with the pineapple. Do we know if, indeed, this was milk in that bowl? I believe it's very significant because, if milk, no one would eat pineapple out of milk that has been setting all day. In other words, I don't believe JBR would have taken pineapple from a bowl that evening, which would have been sitting all day. It would go along way, IMO, of establishing the fact that the pineapple and tea was prepared that evening.

    4. The position of the pineapple bowl and tea glass. It doesn't appear to be sitting in front of a chair. Wouldn't this mean that, whoever, prepared and placed the utensils, did not plan to sit at the table but was busy doing something else?

    5. Why didn't the person just leave the pineapple and tea in the kitchen where it was located, and not carry it into the breakfast room?
     
  3. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Maybe I'm off my rocker but I do wish someone would construct a model of the Ramsey home, somewhere, and set it up as it was at the time of the murder so people could get a proper feel of the logistics involved for whomever was involved in this crime.

    Try as I may, whenever I look at the crime scene photos, I simply can't get a good grasp of how everything lies. I remember looking at the crime scene photos of the house front and thinking the house sat well off the road. Whenever I saw it, in person, I was shocked to see how close the house is to the road....
     
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Hey, Learnin. Hope you had a good holiday season.

    Very good questions you have, and I wish I had the answers. Unfortunately, Team Ramsey doesn't allow facts like those to be publicized. We only get the stuff they think they can spin into an intruder.

    First a caveat: my memory is suffering at this point in this case--and my life--so I can only tell you what I do remember.

    Burke's and Patsy fingerprints were located on the bowl. That much we know from books and from a screen shot someone took off of one of the crocumentaries; the screen shot was of a document stating as much.

    [​IMG]

    But as for fingerprints on the glass, spoon, or DNA even tested on those, and also as to the milk in the bowl, none of that has ever been openly revealed by anyone involved in the investigation or any other source that I know of, except for those observations and questions asked on the forums.

    The only person involved in the investigation I remember seeing discussing DNA being possibly lifted from the spoon or glass was Dr. Lee. He was asked about it--I think this was in Larry Schiller's documentary aired on the night Patsy was buried--and said he did not know of those being tested and he thought it would have been important if they were. Or something like that.

    Personally, I find it absolutely amazingly bad investigative work if they weren't tested for DNA and fingerprints.

    But personally, I find so much in this investigation deliberately and/or incompetently mishandled, it might be more amazing if they did do those critical tests.

    I mean, wouldn't you think in all Lacy's/Team Ramsey's pot banging and shrub shaking, they'd think to test those in case there was a match to that old "intruder" DNA?

    No?

    Then it stands to reason they either already tested those and they know whose DNA/prints are on them, and it ain't no intruder, or they're stupider than Inspector Clouseau.

    Or maybe they are just corrupt and don't want to know.

    Here are the collection of crime scene photos of the bowl of pineapple and glass in the FFJ case library:
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9783
     
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I think these are very good questions, so I want to look at them a little closer.

    One thing to consider is that the breakfast table is a different height than the countertop in the kitchen.

    If these were set out for children, or by children, maybe that would answer why they were on that table rather than still in the kitchen.

    But if there is milk in the bowl, and if someone were going to actually eat with that spoon out of a bowl of milk and pineapple, why would he/she do that standing up? Why not place these in front of a chair? I don't know. Kids might do that. Or maybe a parent would without thinking about it. In a hurry. Or maybe there's another reason. I can't imagine that the BPD never asked all present that morning in the Ramsey home, awaiting the call from the "kidnappers", if they set out the bowl and tea, set it out, etc.

    I think someone here did an experiment with pineapple in a bowl once upon a time to see if it would get "milky" on its own after sitting out for a while. We know the bowl of pineapple was on that very table on Dec. 23rd, as the photo of that Christmas party shows it among the other edible items for the children to decorate the gingerbread houses. But I can't remember what the outcome of that was...maybe someone else does?
     
  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    And while you've got me on the topic of the screen shot of the document giving the fingerprint results of the pineapple bowl, what about that partial line at the bottom?

    [​IMG]

    I'm just trying to remember what has been mentioned before in this case as being "broken"? I remember a broken Christmas ornament found somewhere...maybe in the basement? Anyone?

    And I am wondering if that last word is "base"...and what has a "base" in it? Basement? Notice the fourth letter is curved with no taller, upward stroke that I can see, so that leaves a limited amount of possibilities. Also, the fifth letter, which immediately follows without a space, has no taller, upward stroke, as I see it.

    I actually typed those possibilities out, and then lost that post as my server malfunctioned or something.

    Suffice it to say, compare the other letters in the typeface with the possibilities from what we can see. I did that, and all I have come up with is "...ver the broken base_...".

    Now speculating, that seems to me to end up being "...over the broken basement...."

    I'm not that good with puzzles, so maybe someone else is?

    But what could "...over the broken basement..." mean? "...over the broken basement..."...window?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2011
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    One more thing I found regarding the kitchen windows discussed earlier in this thread:

    Turns out the kitchen window did access the outside. The butler's pantry on the outside wall of the kitchen appears to have been built one level down--remember the stairs on both sides? Whether it was built like that by the Ramseys during their remodel or that was original to the home, I don't know. But here is a photo, taken by jams some time after the Ramseys had moved out, which shows a longshot of the exterior butler's door and kitchen window.

    From ACandyRose.com:

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Hi, koldk.,
    Could it be "under the broken basement..."? I don't know.
     
  9. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Great find! I have been stumped by this for several years as it always looked as if there was sunlight coming through the kitchen windows and I couldn't figure out how this could be with the butler's pantry.....Good job!
     
  10. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Had a wonderful holiday season, kk, thanks. Well, the document, shown in the photograph, states that Burke's fingerprints were on the tea glass. I think it's safe to say that means Burke drank the tea. I have to believe, with the pineapple evidence, Burke would have been asked, at some point, when he drank the tea. Makes me wonder why his answer wasn't included in ST's book. Since JBR's autopsy was performed the day after body was found, then, I would have to think BPD would have been interested in the timing of the pineapple, tea party, no?

    When was Burke first interviewed by the child psychologist?
     
  11. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    They look the same to me. Different lighting, that's all. Seems to be a composite type material. Corian? Doesn't look like granite.
     
  12. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I agree. The neighbors reported seeing "strange moving lights" (obviously someone walking with the flashlight) in the R kitchen window. So there HAD to be a window to the outside. The 2 "windows" over the beds in JB's room were reported to be fake, though.

    As far as that statement- could it be "broken basement WINDOW"?
     
  13. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Could be. Different angle, lighting, could throw one off....
     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh my gosh! This is how easy it is to completely misinterpret something that seems clear once someone points it out to you!

    I totally read the document as Burke's fingerprints were ON THE GLASS TOP OF THE TABLE. So that, I figured, was certainly reasonable as having gotten on the table any old time.

    But you're right. It doesn't say "glass-top of table". It says GLASS on table. As in drinking glass. D'oh!

    So it was Burke who was drinking tea. And with the placement of the bowl of pineapple, it appears Burke can be connected to the bowl of pineapple as well.

    I"m thinking Burke was first interviewed by the child psychology specialist at the end of January, 1997, about a month after the murder. I've speculated that the reason the Ramseys let that happen was they had no choice; as prime suspects in a child murder, social services/the state had a responsibility to make sure Burke was safe. So they had to allow him to be questioned or it would have become more traumatizing if LE had to step in and force the issue, I imagine.

    Then Burke was interviewed again right before John and Patsy, some time around June of 1998. He also testified before the grand jury, I'm thinking that was in 1999...? I may be off on those dates, so double check if it's important in your research.

    Not much has ever been written about Burke in any published media since the tabs got sued on his behalf. Legally, Burke was a minor and professionals investigating the case were motivated to protect him for that reason alone.

    IMO, Burke could close this case if he chose to do so. But I believe he'll never talk to LE and he'll never reveal the truth about what he knows, whatever that might be.
     
  15. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    About a month after the murder, huh? Well, I'd have to believe that Burke was asked if he drank the tea that was found on the breakfast table. At this time, the Ramseys would still not have known about the pineapple found in JBR's intestines. And they probably, at this time, would not have known about the fingerprint evidence on the bowl, spoon and glass. So, LE might not have had the psychologist ask about when he drank the tea but if he drank the tea. However, if Burke was interviewed, again prior to JR and PR's interview, he might have been asked about when he drank the tea.

    I'm trying to figure out some of the things LE might know that we, as the general public, still do not know.

    LE has to know that BR drank the tea. Thus, they had to follow up, at some point, with questioning. Did BR admit to drinking the tea or did he deny it? Or did he simply answer that he didn't remember. I'm going to reread ST's book, tonight, which has excerpts from BR's first interview. I can't remember him including any questioning about the tea but you know they had to ask him at some time. I ought to re-read PR's interviews concerning the same...maybe there's something in that. Didn't Patsy deny knowing how that pineapple and tea got out there? If BR's fingerprints are on that glass, and there is a used tea bag in that glass and BR's fingerprints are on that glass, then, Burke drank the tea. Wasn't JR and PR trying to cast doubt on the pineapple and glass by saying, "it's such a big spoon.", etc. Why would they do so if it was their son who drank the tea? I think we can assume if BR drank the tea, and the pineapple bowl was right next to it, then, he was involved with that too. And if he was the one who got it out, why would they act as if it's all so strange?????

    But, something just occured to me. Didn't JR state that he helped BR put together a model airplane downstairs before going to bed that night??????
    If so, did they put it together on that breakfast table and this is where he drank the tea?????? This might explain why the bowl and glass are off to the side of where the chair is....the airplane being in front of him??? Just speculating. I wonder where LE found this airplane?

    Now. We know for sure that the pineapple, in JBR's intestines, matched the pineapple in the bowl, right? If one could prove that the pineapple and tea was brought out at the same time the plane was put together.......
    I ask myself, where would I put a plane together.......At a table, no? Well, we know the kitchen table was cluttered so what better place to put it together except on the table which was clear of clutter......
     
  16. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    JR did say that he stayed up a while "putting something together" with BR.
    Unfortunately, there really isn't a way to prove that the tea glass and bowl of pineapple were put there at the same time.
     
  17. AMES

    AMES Member

    Yeah, me too! And I couldn't believe how close the houses were either...I must have thought that they lived on several acres, or something.
     
  18. AMES

    AMES Member

    Maybe it is talking about the suitcase that was found UNDER the broken basement window.
     
  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I'm pretty sure the word is "'over' the broken basement". If you compare the visible part of the letter before "er", you see only a very tiny tail at the top of the letter, but there is no long stroke as there would be if the letter were a "d". See how that looks: d, as opposed to v.

    If you compare the barely visible "tail" of that letter before "er" to other letters we can also see in the typeface of the document, which is almost all the alphabet, you can see it has to be a "w" or a "v". The letters of the alphabet not visible won't work, either, if you have time to figure it out.

    I actually typed all this out, how I used the process of elimination to figure out it was a "v", but of course, when I hit "submit" without copying my post to my clipboard first, I got an "error" message for some reason and lost it all. Bummer. Don't have the time or patience to do it again right now. Sorry.

    At any rate, it can't be a "d" as we would have to see the longer stroke of the end of the letter. And I can't think of a word that makes sense using the "w": ____wer? Lower the broken basement...?

    So "over the broken basement window" came to mind. If memory serves, I believe somewhere it's said they found a fingerprint on a basement window, but please don't ask me a source, as only "jams" comes to mind and I only believe what she said if I have another very credible, non-Team Ramsey source. Maybe it is in the LE transcripts or a book--sorry, memory is just too fuzzy on this one. Maybe someone else remembers? But it would make sense since the document we're looking at is discussing fingerprints...?

    So here's what I see: Burke's fingerprints were on the glass on the table; Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl of pineapple on the table, along with Patsy's.

    Just speculating using reason and the facts, perhaps Patsy got the bowl of pineapple out for Burke and he ate it at the table, in that position for whatever reason. He also drank from the tea glass.

    JonBenet had pineapple in her upper intestine, which means she ate it within 10 to 30 minutes before she was struck on the head and the process of dying began for her, which we know was after she returned from the Whites' party. The pineapple found in her was tested against and matched the pineapple from the bowl on the table.

    Both John and Patsy tried their best to distance the family from that bowl of pineapple in their '98 LE interview, with Patsy even claiming the placement of the bowl and glass with teabags wasn't her "set-up".

    When Patsy started spinning in those interviews, I personally look very hard at what she's trying to deny: the bowl of pineapple and the tea glass.

    By 1998, she knew they had a problem with the pineapple in JB's intestines pointing to her eating it at home, from that very bowl, which had Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints on it. She and John had to stick to their story that JB was asleep when they got home, though there is plenty of evidence they lied.

    So that would explain why they would/will never admit that bowl of pineapple and glass of tea were put out by Patsy for Burke, if that is what happened.

    Here's the rub: if Patsy put that bowl out for Burke earlier in the day, as the RST love to promote, why wouldn't she just admit it? Team Ramsey--well, those who believe anything that will help them exonerate the Ramseys, no matter how silly--even go so far as to claim JB ate it before she went to the Whites' house. Since the pineapple found in the intestines is matched by forensics to that from the bowl on the table, trying to fly the spin that she actually ate it at the Whites' house won't do without a more elaborate story which the Ramseys' own statements cannot support. Some like to believe the pineapple hung around in JB's stomach and upper intestines for six or seven hours, but that's yet another far-fetched fantasy that just won't fly.

    So what else works for Team Ramsey that's more reasonable? Burke ate the pineapple and drank the tea, and at some point while the rest of the family slept, JB managed to eat a bite or two from that bowl that night before she died. Yes, we've seen this theory rolled out in various equally implausible scenarios: why wouldn't she scream if she's eating pineapple with an intruder whom she doesn't know? How/why would an intruder feed her pineapple and hang around for half an hour, then kill her and do all that staging, while the family slept in a quiet house with them, never fearing discovery? Hours and hours in the home, hanging out, writing practice ransom notes, feeding a child, molesting and murdering her--and all they've found of this intruder after 14 years is a few strands of DNA that matches no one ever tested?

    Lots of problems with trying to fly that theory, but what else do they have?

    How about, Burke ate the pineapple and drank the tea and it was on the table, so that's all they know and it's supported by the evidence?

    Simple.

    Instead, Patsy and John deny the bowl, the pineapple (Patsy went to great lengths to distance that from their food supply, as well), the tea glass, the tea bag in the glass, the "set-up", that they know anything, ever, don't go there, pal!

    Why deny the truth about evidence in the investigation of the murder of their child if it's innocent?

    Because this evidence--has Burke's fingerprints on it. And John actually did mention that Burke was a tea drinker, in an LE interview, didn't he?

    You know, I've sometimes wondered if there is one other person who actually knows what happened that night: Burke's psychiatrist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2011
  20. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Good post KoldKase. The very fact that the Ramseys deny anything to do with the pineapple, tea glass and bowl and spoon is beyond reason. If I remember it correctly Patsy even said that the spoon wasn't her pattern. Am I correct there? The whole scene is just not understandable. Why lie about something so ordinary? Beats the heck out of me. But they must have had something to hide to lie about something so simple.....was it that Burke was up then or never went to bed? We hear him on the 911 call (very controversial of course). so is it that he is the central figure in that little scene? And that Burke certainly does know more because BDI.

    I've said all along from the beginning that if some day it was proved that Burke did it I wouldn't be surprised. I think all the lies on the part of Patsy and John were to protect the "family" namely Burke and themselves. Painfully I go back to my newest theory that all the folks were called before the LE came over and all of them did come over to help because it was Burke and they would try to help J&P not lose Burke.

    I know I have no proof or back up quotes. But for me it does make sense of the whole mess and why all the lies from the very beginning. Yes, I saw the good quotes that said the R called LE before the folks came over. But darn it all it makes sense if that scene was the truth. Ah well another day has dawned!
     
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