Three critical questions

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    It wouldn't take very long to cut up a pull-up...the remnants of the cord, etc.

    I bet I could cut it up and flush it within 3 minutes....but, then again, I've had practice with an old coat.....lol
     
  2. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    If I'd known that's what it took, Karen, I woulda cut it up a long time ago....
     
  3. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Some, including Law Enforcement, surmise that the Ramseys could have dumped evidence in neighbors garbage cans. How risky would that be and how long do you suppose it would take to do that?
     
  4. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    "I believe SHE was the one JR had in mind when he told Det. Arndt "this is an inside job". They were going to try to pin this on her."

    I agree.
     
  5. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    koldkase,
    Don't leave us orphans. Several, here, have provided an invaluable service in trying to provide justice for JBR and you are right at the top. In fact, I think it is your work, here, that has kept me coming back. I think of the work you have done in organizing crime scene photographs, etc., not to mention your valuable insight.
    The problem with this case is the overwhelming amount of information that we have to sift through. Just imagine Chief Kolar sifting through that mountain of police reports, etc. But, I think you're right. We tend to have our theories and we don't want to give them up easily when presented with evidence that might not support it.
    This is one of the reasons, when I came into this thing late, that I refused to come up with only one theory of what happened. I developed five theories, even an intruder theory, and I've never let go of any of them as of yet. I do list my theories in order of probability as I tend to think Ockham's razor is the best method, here, since there is so much confusion and every theory has it's problems.
    Because I've done this, I'm open to any evidence that might support any of the theories or make me move my number one theory down and another up. My number one theory has always been BDI because, using Ockham's razor, I think it's the theory that has the least amount of obstacles to overcome. But, I have wavered at times and wondered maybe if PDI was simpler. At times, I've even given strong weight to JAR hired it done. But, BDI always keeps coming back to the front burner and, after having read Kolar's book, it is stronger than ever.
    I think you attempted to do what I am suggesting here, when you started this thread. We need to discuss one thing at a time and everyone give their pros and cons and maybe see where the strongest concensus lies.
    You began this thread with three questions. Might we whittle it down to one question. I would suggest we begin with WHAT ROOM DID THE HEAD BLOW TAKE PLACE. There's not going to be a complete concensus but, at the least, we could find what the majority of posters believe and that would be a start. If there's agreement, we could start a new thread. At any rate, I hope you stick around.
     
  6. heymom

    heymom Member

    Her clothing was dry, but there was a urine stain on the front of her outer pants, the long-john pajama bottom. I am not sure why the large Bloomies would have been put on her BEFORE she released the urine that was in her bladder as she died. Maybe they thought she was already dead? Or maybe there was more blood on her regular panties. I'm a little confused as to the timing of the underwear changes v. the death.
     
  7. Elle

    Elle Member

    I'm going into kinks again. I think you have missed your calling, Learnin.
    I am seeing you in action here doing all of the above. I'll know who to call on to help me cover up a crime.

    Back to the serious side! Yes, you're right! I'm sure evidence can be flushed down the toilet. I wasn't aware the Ramsey toilets had been confiscated. That's quite a task for those involved. I wonder what they found(?). I never read anything relating to this. Thanks for posting this!
     
  8. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    The Ramseys hired separate lawyers for Patsy, Burke and JR. That tells me that they felt they all had separate and distinct issues. I think JR helped in the staging but was ready to kick Patsy to the curb if necessary. If not, John and Patsy would want the same lawyer or lawyers representing their common interest/
     
  9. Pearlsim

    Pearlsim FFJ Senior Member

    bob

    Bob, it's funny you should mention this point because yesterday I was thinking about them all lawyering up separately. I think John or Patsy would've gladly sold the other one out, if necessary. Easily. In fact, I think the only thing that kept them from trying to blame the other one is protection of Burke.
     
  10. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Could be. The lawyer issue is yet another of many arrows that point in every direction.

    If JR possibly considered throwing P under the bus, then you have to ask to what greater degree was she involved in the murder/coverup than JR? What would make him think he was in a position to turn anyone in? Or could he have been equally involved, and just been plain vicious enough to think that the only elements of staging that could be directly linked to anyone would be those made from Patsy's personal effects? If that was the case, that guy is truly
    cold blooded.

    JR was the one who chose to hand detectives Patsy's pad of paper. Hmmmmm
     
  11. Pearlsim

    Pearlsim FFJ Senior Member

    I've wondered why on earth John handed the detectives that same pad of paper.

    I've also wondered why he let that ransom novel stand. My husband and I don't routinely kill people or take part in post-murder stagings after someone else does, but if I wrote that ridiculous ransom note, Hubby would've have torn it up right away and told me to just scrawl something like "We have your kid. Pay up or she dies."

    Again, why did John let Patsy get away with writing the longest ransom note in history? Anyone with the least amount of intelligence would know that the more you write, the more you're going to reveal of yourself. Hmmmmm...
     
  12. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Several other things which go along with what you're mentioning. It seems like JR's family connections were lawyered up (his ex, etc.) while Patsy's were freely talking with LE....Nedra, Pam, etc.

    And another thing that always struck me. In PMPT, it is related that Shapiro called JR at one point. He told JR that he (Shapiro) was sure he had nothing to do with the death and he felt sorry that he had to undergo all the rumors, etc. But, then, Shapiro told JR that he thought PR was guilty. JR never reacted, just remained silent.

    I always thought the separate lawyers, etc., (and JR's ex and other children being supplied with lawyers) indicated that JR (or a family member) had some skeletons that could be uncovered or that maybe JAR wasn't totally disconnected from what happened.
     
  13. Nickii

    Nickii Member

    I am also leaning toward the BDI-theory. No other makes sense for me regarding the R's behaviour.

    No spouse would cover-up for the other. It is my believe, if this would have been the case, the R's would be divorced long ago. With all the staging it is different. They had a very good reason for that. Protect the child and protect the image of a perfect "loving christian family". That let them stay together.
     
  14. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    There WERE urine stains in the oversized Bloomies, as well as the long-johns.

    From my August 19,2012 post on this thread:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=191791&postcount=98


    "For the record, the oversized Bloomie panties on JonBenet WERE urine stained according to the autopsy report.

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/library/autopsy.pdf

    "Beneath the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the words 'Wednesday' on the elastic band. The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch in maximum dimension."
    "
     
  15. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Pearlsim--one explanation is that John didn't come into it until Pasty was most of the way through. He may have never seen the note--or maybe he was doing other things like cleaning up the original murder scene. It is also possible that John didn't even know anything happened until Patsy started screaming around 5 am, figured it out, and decided to help her. It's hard to say.
     
  16. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    BobC your mentioning of the lawyering up is a good point. I've always been curious about the lawyers for his ex wife and their kids. Could it be that there is a history of some deviant behavior in that first marriage that his ex might know about and to protect him now he secured lawyers for them? You raise good points in these thoughts.
     
  17. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    Exactly.
     
  18. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    I didn't see your response till now Bob, but you could be right on the reasoning.

    OK, I've always been in the minority in this case, but I'm still right in the middle of reading Kolar's book. I have always thought a male Ram had more to do with this thing than a female Ram. I am at this point now. I believe Patsy wrote that note. 100% sure. I think John and Patsy were involved with the staging due to the fibers from clothes all over the place. I don't think anyone else could have done this staging exclusively. I've thought since day one that Burke had something to do with this for many reasons. I've waivered, tho. What was part of the problem was Steve Thomas' view on the bedwetting theory and Patsy. I figured, he has seen all the evidence, not me.

    However, I am sticking by my original theory on at least who was more involved in this incident (not sure if it was accidental or intentional, I am torn). I am back to my BDI theory. Will have to read more of the book. Not sure what happened, but people have been putting up good theories. I wonder about the "leading the dog with a leash" theory. Hmmm. I do think Burke had issues tho, that's for sure.
     
  19. Karen

    Karen Member

    I believe in his book Kolar said JR retained lawyers for both sides of the family, both the Ramsey side ad the Paughs.
    Also there was something about how legally all three Ramseys had to have a different criminal lawyer. That's different with a civil case.
     
  20. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    If I recall correctly, JR initially hired separate lawyers for him and Patsy within a couple of days of the murder (maybe Burke too), but the other family members got lawyers after the media took a big interest.


    Thor you may be right, but when you say B did it, what do you mean by "it?" The head blow? or the head blow and the strangulation?

    Speaking of lawyers and Ramsey private investigators, I was shocked to learn that the first person the R's PI's contacted was Fleet White, I think on the day after the murder. That is extremely suspicious. If they were truly interested in finding the killer, why did the PI's start with FW? And not the "suspects" the Ramseys fingered?

    Answer: They weren't interested in finding a killer. They wanted to know FW's version of events that night so Ramsey could get his story straight. Man this is so twisted.
     
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