Sexual Behavior Problems (SBP) - from James Kolar's book about Ramsey case

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Jul 27, 2012.

  1. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    The problem is, Father Holverstock doesn't even know exactly what he heard John say. In fact, in the quote from Kolar's book, Holverstock gives TWO different versions of what he thinks he heard John say ... and how do we know if he even got either one of those two right?

    According to Holverstock, John COULD have said, "she was warm, she was wrapped in a blanket." That is a lot different than, "I don't think he meant to kill her, because she was wrapped in a blanket."

    I think we're putting too much credence into hearsay, and even that hearsay is suspect. Holverstock is not sure of what he heard, and the first part of the first version "I don't think he meant to kill her ..." is NOT EVEN CLOSE to the first part of of Holverstock's second version, "she was warm ..."

    It would be worth giving attention to what Holverstock thinks he might have heard if he had only given ONE version and was SURE of what he heard John say. He's not. And I'm afraid that leads us down a slippery slope, making conclusions based on faulty non-evidence.

    I'm glad you asked this question, Learnin, because I think it's important to set the record straight that we DON'T know exactly what John said because Holverstock isn't even sure of what John said, and he was there!

    ----------------------------------------

    Page 88

    Quote:
    Father Holverstock advised he had been heating a glass of water in the kitchen microwave when things began to happen. Fleet White had a look on his face that he'd "never seen before," and racing past him through the kitchen, exclaimed that JonBenet had been found.

    The next thing he knew, he was standing in the foyer area near the top of the basement stairs, and John Ramsey had his daughter in his hands. It was Holverstock's recollection that Ramsey blurted out, "I don't think he meant to kill her, because she was wrapped in a blanket," or that "she was warm, she was wrapped in a blanket."
     
  2. Karen

    Karen Member

    But the victim advocates , Grace Morlock and ? (can't remember her name,) said they heard the same thing. Holverstock isn't the only one who heard JR say that.
     
  3. cynic

    cynic Member

    You're right:
    After JonBenét’s body was found, victim advocate Grace Morlock told detectives, John Ramsey said more than once that he didn’t think the kidnapper meant to kill his daughter, because she was wrapped in her blanket.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 80
     
  4. Karen

    Karen Member


    What implicates John in the actual crime, evidence? The only thing I can think of right now is the dark fibers from his Israeli made shirt.
    I don't think John knew anything about that absurd ransom note. He would not have let Patsy put in 118,00.00 or good southern common sense and fat cats, no way. So maybe he really was reading the ransom note for the very first time that morning, and he recognized Patsy all over it. I think he did question Burke that morning. We already know Burke was up, he was on the 911 call and so was John sounding pretty :(:(:(:(ed off at Burke.
    I starting to wonder what exactly John really did have to do with the actual crime.
     
  5. cynic

    cynic Member

    I guess I read that differently when I ran across it in Kolar’s book.
    I read it as Rol hearing one of two things:
    "I don't think he meant to kill her, because she was wrapped in a blanket,"
    or
    "I don't think he meant to kill her, "she was warm, she was wrapped in a blanket."

    And we do have confirmation from one other witness:
    After JonBenét’s body was found, victim advocate Grace Morlock told detectives, John Ramsey said more than once that he didn’t think the kidnapper meant to kill his daughter, because she was wrapped in her blanket.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 80
     
  6. Elle

    Elle Member

    Learnin,

    I think John Ramsey was speaking out loud because he knew he wasn't alone. Fleet White was close behind him and he knew others were present. I think his statement ... "He didn't mean to kill her" ... was directed to the kidnapper. I doubt he would mean his own son, Burke. For starters, I don't think Burke Ramsey close on ten years old would think to wrap JonBenét in a blanket etc. More than likely he would be looking for his Nintendo.
     
  7. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks, Cynic. You're right. We read those sentences two different ways. Now that I see YOUR version of what was written in the book, I agree that it's possible Holverstock quote was meant to be understood that way. If the phrase, "I don't think he meant to kill her" was supposed to be part of BOTH versions, then that changes the literal interpretation of the sentence structures and means the only difference in the two versions is the possible insertion of the sentence "she was warm" between the two other sentences of "I don't think he meant to kill her," and "she was wrapped in a blanket."

    That's not the way the quote is written, so there is room for confusion. It's just another lesson in: we know what we mean to say, but it's not always translated on to the page. Thanks for the clarification.

    That's true, and I had forgotten about what Grace Morlock said. In the PMPT version, John's quote is gender neutral without a specific pronoun, and so I wasn't sure if John was referring to the pretend "kidnapper" as a male or female, especially since he also said it was an inside job, and the Ramseys tried to implicate Linda Hoffman-Pugh in JonBenet's death.
     
  8. Elle

    Elle Member

    Cherokee, I would just love to be a fly on the wall in your classroom while you're teaching. I can just hear your voice teaching your class going over
    everything you just said above![​IMG]
     
  9. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    It certainly shows that JR had a pretty good understanding of the FBI's idea of behavioral "undoing," doesn't it? If you find your daughter strangled to death, the last thing you think is that her killer cared about her or didn't mean to do it.

    To me, this shows that JR was aware of what happened for some time, knew who did it, and knew that certain things were done to comfort JBR after death.
     
  10. Elle

    Elle Member



    Exactly, Bob!
     
  11. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    I had another thought about these statements of JR. The part "she was warm" is what made me think of this. After the head injury and according to Kolar the 90 min time before she was strangled her body remained warm because she wasn't dead though someone thought she was. So she was wrapped in a blanket so as to not be cold. Does that make sense? Now who the person is that is doing this remains a query for me. Burke would know enough to cover someone just as he had been covered so many times in his resting/sleeping times. So that is what he did. Later when he checked on her he had to tell someone that JBR didn't move and to come see. (Here if where the poking takes place to see if she was alive or would move.) I think that would have been Patsy he would have told. JR just wasn't the warm fuzzy kind of Dad you'd go to tell things to, I believe. So that leaves me to think that up til then JR didn't know what was going on.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    We're on the same page, Zoomama, about the blanket. I just put this on another thread, but I'm going to copy it here as it does make sense to me.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Let's say for whatever reason, one of the Ramseys hit JB with a golf club, Maglite, whatever, in the kitchen/breakfast area/living room.

    She goes down.

    If her parents were still up, if this were right after they got home, the kids eating pineapple, etc., what happened next?

    She's got a head injury that is fatal, but how do they know that?

    Did she convulse? Everyone who works with such injuries has told us there's no way to know.

    But...

    Maybe that's why someone got her pillow--to put under her head while she was still alive, a blanket to keep her warm...before she was strangled.

    Not knowing what to do...can't take her to the ER because they'll find out she's been sexually assaulted? Make her comfortable...while we think, make some calls...?

    An hour or two until she's strangled. Blood seeping into her skull and swelling of the brain. Pineapple digested during this time.

    Thoughts?
     
  13. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Here's the thing I'd like to stress about this subject. Let's pretend that JR was totally ignorant of what had happened until he heard PR's scream. Upon reading the ransom note, wouldn't he have awakened BR and question him?

    Whether they are lying or not, the Rams stated that they looked in on BR but he was asleep so they didn't bother him. There's no way they could know he heard anything during the night. There's no way John would allow him to sleep without questioning him if John was truly ignorant unless he knew what happened after reading the ransom note. In other words, if John was truly ignorant upon hearing PR's scream, he wasn't ignorant after reading the ransom note....he knew what probably had happened...if not, he would've questioned BR. Upon reading the ransom note, he had to know BR didn't write it so why did he allow him to sleep if he thought Patsy or one of his acquaintances had done it? If he thought it was Patsy, after reading the ransom note, then, why did he say: "HE didn't mean to kill her." ???
     
  14. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    Bingo. Things I've always thought before. IF John was ignorant to what happened. For this reason (besides others), I assume John knew what happened before 911 was called. That would be one of the first things I would do, had I been in that position. Check on your other child and see if they heard anything.
     
  15. Karen

    Karen Member

    I agree. I'm starting to think maybe John was in the dark until he read the ransom note and figured it out and then went in to protect mode. He was protecting Burke, not Patsy. Patsy was protecting Burke too, but just in a different way, by writing the ransom note to explain the dead body in the basement.
     
  16. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    I went to lunch with some co-workers the other day and decided to do a very simple test. None of them knew a thing about this case so there was no bias. I told them all to pretend they were Patsy Ramsey, and that their son and daughter were very close to each other, sleeping on the 2nd floor. You wake up around 5 am to start breakfast before catching a plane later that morning. You find a ransom note on the stairs that states someone has kidnapped your daughter. You run upstairs and find her gone.

    My simple question to my friends was this:

    What is the first thing you do after finding JBR missing?

    Every single one of them looked at me like I was stupid for asking, and then replied "Wake up Burke" or some variation of that like "keep Burke close to you."


    When I told them what went on with Burke that morning, "sleeping in" for hours while police swarmed the house, John shielding him from questions, etc.--all of my friends just got this look on their faces like they didn't believe that what I was saying could really have taken place, because none of it made sense.

    One of them even asked if the Ramseys were in prison.

    Nope!
     
  17. wombat

    wombat Member

    Per Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey, Burke slept through: the kidnapper taking his sister away from the room down the hall, Patsy's initial scream outside JB's bedroom, John and Patsy yelling at each other "What about Burke?" and then allegedly checking in on him, the arrival of the police, the Whites, the Fernies, and Father Hoverstock. Then John "remembered him" and woke him up and sent him off to the Whites with his Nintendo. Ridiculous, how did they get away with that? I guess Burke also slept through asking "what did you find?" at the end of the 911 call.

    So maybe John, who knew nothing until then, woke up and read the ransom note and said "c'mon, Pats, you whacked-out bee-otch, what's going on here?" and got a confession and went along with the rest of it? Rather than knowing all along and helping with the staging? I dunno. Either way, Burke certainly was prepped to play possum and KEEP HIS MOUTH SHUT no matter what.
     
  18. Karen

    Karen Member

    IF that's what happened then it was Patsy who came up with the kidnap scenario. I just don't think John knew anything about the ransom note because I doubt he would have allowed that silly thing to be what was put forth to the police. IMO HE didn't even buy it so I don't think he would have allowed it, IF he were involved before that morning. Just thinking out loud.
     
  19. wombat

    wombat Member

    I get it and you may be on to something. Patsy always yakked about how in control CEO John was, if he had been in charge of the coverup of the manner of JB's death, he surely have taken a different approach. Certainly no 3-page ransom note in Patsy's handwriting. Hmm.
     
  20. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    Yes. Maybe that's why Burke was up and asking questions on the 911 tape.

    Apparently both Steve Thomas and James Kolar think that JR came into the coverup late. This makes me have to re-think JR's role again for the zillionth time.

    For years I thought JR was utterly clueless until after the 911 call. Then I learned about his shirt fibers on JBR's underwear and had to revise my thinking.

    How are those shirt fibers explained on the brand new size 12 undies found on JBR's body if JR wasn't involved during her redressing?
     
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