Why John lied about breaking the window

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Learnin, Sep 20, 2012.

  1. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I had the exact same reaction when we first pulled up to the Ramsey house. All the media photos made it look like it was fairly far away from other houses on a big lot. Not true. It's on a very small lot with the neighbor houses very close on the sides, and 15th Street is also not very wide, so those houses are close as well.

    To me, it felt like the houses were almost on top of each other, and that was especially true for the Ramsey house and their neighbor to the north. There was barely room for the iron fence that was later put up between the two houses (and around the front and other side of the Ramsey house). I think the reason for that was the extra wideness of Patsy's addition to the house. If they had left the house as it was, there would have been more room on the lot, and it wouldn't have been as close to the neighbor's house.

    I also couldn't believe how close the back of the Ramsey house was to the alley. The driveway was so short, it was almost non-existant and more like a slab than a driveway. That addition looks like a real monstrosity when you see the original, lovely house.

    By the way, the house is STILL for sale for more than $2,000,000 by the daughter of Robert Schuller. They can't give the thing away. I don't know why they don't reduce the price to get it sold. Maybe they're using it for a tax write-off.
     
  2. Elle

    Elle Member


    Thank you Learnin! This does explain it much better! If you come across Bob Cooksie's photos, please post them for me. I had no success when I was looking (?)!
     
  3. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I went back and read JR's '97 interview with Thomas and Trujillo. That's where he told them for the first time he broke the window.

    I'm going to quote a section that implies to me how he wanted the "broken window" as entry to play out.

    JR has changed this story many times, as a matter of fact, but this was his original version. He elaborated quite a bit on it in '98 with Smit's encouragement...and described a scenario of how he entered the basement through that window, on more than one occasion, he claimed, which I believe to be absolutely impossible to execute.

    So why would he want to create this "entry point for the intruder" story with the broken window, and then blow that up by claiming he broke the window himself...when he clearly is lying?

    Here's how I worked it out for myself...and I certainly can be wrong, but it's what I'm thinking at present with the new info we have to work with:

    JR and Patsy both told elaborate lies about how that window actually got broken. Clearly they'd cooridinated those lies before their LE interviews in '97 and '98.

    They could not expect anyone to believe an intruder broke the window that morning because the glass wasn't there. If the glass had been there, why not just go with that and let LE believe the intruder broke the window?

    I don't believe the glass was there. I believe the glass had been cleaned up by Patsy. Why would Patsy do that when she had a maid? Maybe because the maid was off for a while, or more likely, IMO, because the Ramseys didn't want the maid to know how the window got broken. Maids talk, as we all know.

    So what would have been so serious that they wouldn't even want the maid to know about it?

    If JB was seeing a therapist, if Burke was seeing a therapist...and we know JB was being molested before the night she was killed, probably for some time...

    We know she had her skull broken in half. She still ended up garroted in the basement, her body staged as molested, left posed in the cellar room, with a staged ransom note written by Patsy, IMO.

    Even though John had to eventually "find" it himself, that staging wasn't meant for John to find, IMO, but for LE or one of the kidnap party guests to find.

    So the only thing that puts all the puzzles into place for me is that the parents were protecting Burke.

    JB AT LEAST was seeing a therapist...AT SIX YEARS OF AGE. Patsy called Dr. Beuf three times in an hour after his office closed on Dec. 17th, yet neither she nor Dr. Beuf seemed to remember what was so urgent just 8 days before her child was violently killed.

    After the head blow, she was dying. Then for some reason, one or more of the three in the house decided to strangle her--an hour or two later.

    And that paintbrush...something else I read in Thomas' book I didn't remember, as I thought for years that JB was afraid of the cellar. But former nanny Suzanne Savage told police JonBenet "...loved to play and paint pictures in the basement...." (JB:ITRMI, p.46.)

    So looking at these pieces of that puzzle in light of this new and old, forgotten info, perhaps that window got broken when the children were playing and acted out violently there, and it was so alarming to the parents they cleaned it up and concealed it. When that violence later escalated so dramatically, their guilty knowledge led them to lie about it to hide the facts, facts those therapy records could have revealed.

    So the broken window was woven into the "intruder" story they concocted on the fly that night.

    Maybe there had been sadistic sexual abuse that night and the paintbrush was used; maybe it was only used to cover up prior molestation. Maybe the paintbrush was simply handy, something pulled out of a demented brain attempting to deal with the unthinkable, from a past experience or reference, in a controlled panic.

    Two children gone for JR.

    But Patsy only had two children. And she could have no more.

    Well, this is how my thinking is leaning, anyway. I'll stop here, because it's all so much speculation, and that's unfortunately probably all we'll ever have.
     
  5. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Iirc, Patsy too said in one of the police interviews that the children used to play in the basement a lot.
     
  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, she did...though somehow through the years, I got the impression which stuck that JB would have been afraid to go into basement at night. (Clearly my memory sucks at this point.) Well, even a familiar place like that would have been scary in the dark to a child.

    Which could support an argument that if she in fact was in the basement, playing or sneaking peeps at Christmas presents or some such, when she was struck, the lights were on, the parents were still up, and things were not so scary.

    At any rate, reading that JB was in therapy, and her therapist refused to reveal to LE the facts of that therapy for a child murder victim, whose family were the prime suspects for a long time...and still are, for many of us; and knowing through Kolar that the Ramsey attorneys got Hunter to "permit" the Ramseys to have an "island of privacy" when it came to medical records--i.e., refused to get subpoenas for those records; added to the info that JB played and PAINTED in the basement; equals an even stronger argument, in my mind, that Kolar hit the nail on the head in his suspicions about the abuser in JB's life.
     
  7. heymom

    heymom Member

    JonBenet in therapy

    Did anyone ever give the name of her therapist?
     
  8. Karen

    Karen Member

    I do remember someone saying Jonbenet was afraid of the basement. Maybe LHP? I'll look around in some books and see if I can come up with who said that. Koldkase, you're not crazy, I've read that too.

    So! We have facts here that seem to play out a certain way and it sounds pretty ominous.
    Maybe Jonbenet liked to play and paint down in the basement, but then maybe one time something bad happened to her down there and after that she was afraid of the basement. That could be the place where the sexual contact took place when she was previously molested. So it stands to reason she would relate the basement to that and not want to go down there anymore.
    Saying she was afraid of the "basement" tells me she wasn't really saying what she was afraid of. She was afraid of molestation that happened "in" the basement but since she was probably told not to tell anyone she could only say she didn't want to go down to the basement because she was afraid.
    Also a 6 year old mind may not have been able to articulate why she was afraid of the basement and what happened to her down there.
    I'm just thinking out loud so please chime in.
    I haven't ordered the book yet, I'll be doing that tomorrow. I'll give a review on it especially of course if it has any new or different information than what we already know. I don't know why but I seem to have this incessant need to possess any and all books about this crime. It's a quirk I have.

    ETA: The fear of the basement makes me think of two things. The duvet in the suitcase and the books that were given to Patsy by her family. I don't know why those two things came into my mind but they did.
     
  9. Elle

    Elle Member

  10. Elle

    Elle Member

    This is where I have trouble, DeeDee. I can't see John Ramsey condoning this ransom note, but then again, crafty John may also depend on us thinking this way! (?).
     
  11. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I think it's very interesting as to where this train of thought is going.

    I wonder. Did Burke break that window, before that night, by swinging a golf club? And, if the golf club was used to inflict the head wound, wouldn't the parents avoid stating that Burke broke the window with a golf club?


    If this be the case, then, John's story was concocted for two reasons.

    1. To draw police away from the real reason the window was broken.

    2. To lead FW, and LE, toward the fact that an intruder could wriggle
    through that window well.

    If you stop and think about it. You had a broken window in the basement. If it were broken before that night, police are going to quiz you about how it got broken. If it was broken by Burke wielding a golf club or some other type of break, then, you have to come up with an innocent explanation.
     
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    To state the obvious, not to my knowledge. Maybe someone else knows who it was...well, of course they do. Maybe someone who can and will tell us knows, I should say.

    It's the kind of information that an ethical detective would never reveal to the public in a case such as this, though, I'm thinking. But I bet Lou Smit told all his little toadies.
     
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I like your little quirk, Karen. :book: I look forward to hearing your review.

    I will be always be suspicious of the duvet in the suitcase, along with the heretofore unnamed Dr. Seuss child's book. I have always had this image in my mind when it comes to that: of the duvet spread on the floor in the basement, with the child being read the Dr. Seuss book...to divert her attention from the true agenda of the reader.

    Of course, that's just a scenario I imagine an abuser might use. But for the Dr. Seuss book, I'd never have given it much thought. But that child's book in that related adult's suitcase, with a dirty duvet with a young man's semen stain on it, near where the body of the sexually abused child was found...it's hard to dismiss as so much coincidence. It could be, but knowing what we know about this family and this murder, their trouble with boundaries, their propensity to deny and lie to cover their dirty secrets...it's just suspicious--to me, at least.
     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    But while I have you here...I am a bit behind in my forum reading, so if I may ask, did you ever get to the question about the broken window? Is there any way to determine if it was broken from the inside or outside? I know you gave us the "break a glass bowl" experiment, but what I was wondering is if there is any way we can look at the photos and get a handle on this issue?

    Okay, I'm dreaming, I know, but hey, what else do we have at this point? :pcguru:
     
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thank you! Well done! Succinctly stated...something I am utterly incapable of.... :blush:

    It's all that makes sense to me, Learnin.

    I cannot see any reason for the Ramseys to lie about how that window was broken. But clearly they did--to me, at least.

    Why admit you broke the window and then lie about how and why?

    In all these years, it's a question that has haunted me. It has to be key.

    Since we know no intruder came in the window, and since the Ramseys both spun that wild story about how it got broken by JR, what were they trying to cover up...again?

    There's nothing more normal than a child breaking a window in the process of playing around a house. Balls, bats, golf clubs, siblings fighting--which nearly all siblings do...what's the big deal if one broke a window?

    It has to be something related to their guilty knowledge of who committed this murder, IMO.

    Since the child was bludgeoned in an out of control act of anger and violence, as opposed to the controlled strangulation by ligature and then staging, it's only logical to me that the lies about the broken window must relate to the rage leading to the bludgeoning, or to the person who did that.

    Like I said, it's the only thing that makes sense in all the years I've pondered this issue.

    How could we possibly imagine how much the Ramseys had to lie about? If their lips were moving, they were lying! All these years and all the Team Ramsey spin about no history...oh, they had plenty of history. A six year old child in therapy? With all the pageant trappings? With a worried Patsy telling her friend Pam Archuleta JB "flirted" inappropriately?
     
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Another question which has been brought up, and which involves something so unusual, most of us can't figure it out: why on earth didn't the Ramseys fix that window?

    I know in my small, beer-can collecting life, we would no more ignore or forget about a broken window than we'd leave a hole in the roof.

    I know the men who study this case with us are flabbergasted, thinking of things like small animals entering, the heating bill, etc.

    Patsy claimed she told LHP's husband to fix it, but LHP claimed she had no knowledge of the window being broken, so that's yet another contradiction in this story.

    The thing is, we'd have that window covered with something like plywood immediately and it would be fixed in a matter of weeks, if not days. My hubs would have done that immediately. That night. In the middle of the night, if that's when he broke it. Something would have gone over a broken window, even in the basement.

    I guess the careless Ramseys could have just ignored it, so busy with important things, etc. No rats or squirrels in their home would be a problem--just call the exterminator.

    So why not just call the glass company? Call one of the countless remodeling/repair businesses they'd used through the years when working on their home?

    I guess if they expected the maid's husband to fix it, they'd forget about it. Maybe they never spent much time in that basement, so never noticed the window wasn't fixed. I guess that isn't beyond the pale.

    But JR said Patsy smoked down there. She wrapped presents down there, even on the afternoon of the 25th of Dec., if memory serves. The primary laundry room was there, as well, and Patsy told LE she did a lot of laundry herself. So clearly she was down there a lot. I do laundry, and that's a daily chore with a family. I know they had the maid, but she was only part time, and LHP said Patsy would have JB's soiled bedclothes in the wash when she came in some mornings.

    So the question then would be if Patsy did tell the maid to have her husband fix the window, did the maid forget? Or did Patsy "mean" to tell the maid, but didn't? Or was one of them flat out lying? If Patsy told the maid, why didn't she notice it never got fixed? Why didn't she or JR bother to check on it? Burke's train room was where he and a lot of his friends played, as well. Was there NO adult supervision for them? No parental checking or concern? I'd call THAT neglectful and irresponsible, especially if one of them broke that window. Wouldn't you DELIBERATELY check on them after that?

    We do know the Ramseys first ran the bus over the maid. That morning. First thing when LE questioned them. That continued, so maybe saying the maid helped clean up the glass and her husband was supposed to fix the window could have been intended to point the finger at them for knowing the window was broken. But then, didn't the maid have a key? Of course, just planting the seed could have been the point, especially if they were trying to deflect LE from finding out the truth about how the window got broken.

    I'd say I hope the grand jury got some answers to some of these questions, but of course, we'll never know, so it doesn't matter.
     
  17. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Bingo! I agree 100%. I'm glad you brought this window thing up some time ago especially as to how John squirmed around when asked as to how he came through that window. It's clear that he never climbed through there and why would he when there's a ton of glass to be broken elsewhere without having to force yourself through that space.

    I think you're on to something here. It's clear the window was broken before that fateful night and it is becoming as clear as blue sky outside my window that Patsy and John made up a story to cover for the real reason it was broken.
     
  18. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I, surely, have raised the issue, in the past, about mice and cold air coming in through that window. After seeing the break, and where it was located, however, I wonder if small animals would have negotiated that glass panel and climbed over the sharp glass? And, if the window was at ground level, there would have been a noticeable drop in temperature. However, it was several feet below ground level, and the break wasn't large, so I wonder if there would have been much temperature difference noted down there.

    I guess what I'm saying is that, in such a maze of a house (with so many rooms) and knowing how messy most of the place was, that broken window probably was not high on the priority list of these people. Probably something that was mentioned at time of break but easily placed on the back burner.
     
  19. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member


    You make an interesting point about JB and the basement. She wasn't afraid of the basement per se, but of things that may have taken place in the basement (molestation).
     
  20. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I do recall that interview. I seem to recall that she was referring to BR and his friends who mostly played down there in the train room, and that JB didn't really like to play down there.
     
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