JB's blood on the pillowcase...

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Nov 22, 2008.

  1. Karen

    Karen Member

    I honestly don't think JBR ever even made it to bed that night anyway. The bed was messed up from two nights prior since she slept in Burkes room on Christmas Eve. Her room was a mess so it's no surprise her bed hadn't been made for 2 days.
     
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Speaking of Patsy's lies and obstruction of justice in her own child's murder, I wrote this yesterday at topix, but it kind of hit me in a way I hadn't been able to express it before. So I'm going to post this here, as well.

    It's about the Bloomies. Since we're deep into the evidence, I think it will be okay to put it here:

     
  3. Elle

    Elle Member

    I agree with all you're saying here WVS. It seems they did have something to hide with all the staging they carried out.

    I've always believed it was an accidental death caused by Patsy, but she didn't have the courage to call 911 because of what the ER would find out.
     
  4. Elle

    Elle Member

    I would really like to see that powerpoint presentation WVS that Lou Smit walked away with when he left the Boulder Police. Amazing how Jameson is entwined in this case.
     
  5. Elle

    Elle Member


    Did you check ACR's site KK? BJ has the best collection I've ever come across.
     
  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Just to gather info on this topic and thread for future reference: I wrote this up at topix in a discussion with rashomon and others about the blood on the nightgown.

    I might as well just put it here, since this thread has turned rogue anyhow.

    And then I answered a comment, which I may as well put here, too, now that I've started:

     
  7. AMES

    AMES Member

    I posted about this, on a thread titled, Patsy's 98 Interview..things strange or out of place, when I first joined FFJ, way over a year ago. I posted that I wonder, if AFTER the head wound..which I believe happened in the bathroom, Patsy may have laid JB on the bed, and she could have bled from her nose, ears, nose...or all three. I also posted a website that explains that after a serious head blow, most likely the victim will bleed from one or all three of these places. JB's head wound did not bleed from the outside....so it couldn't have been from that. I think that when Patsy realized what she had done, she possibly could have put JB on her bed, to try and revive her, and that is possibly where the blood stain on the pillow case came from. IMO
     
  8. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    The may also have mentioned nosebleeds because they were aware that the autopsy's mention of the tan mucous inferred that she had bled from the nose/mouth and wanted to see whether PR took the bait.
     
  9. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Additinonal bloodstains?

    [All quotes: KK]

    Thanks KK for bringing the topix posts over to FFJ.
    Strange though that none of the books on the case mention blood on these items. Steve Thomas was right in the center of the investigation; why would he leave out such crucial blood evidence in his book?
    [As for John's shirt fibers (which ST doesn't mention either), they were discovered in later testings of the evidence, when Thomas was no longer involved].

    Bonita on the other hand does not mention blood on the pillowcase; but still Patsy was asked whether JonBenet had nosebleeds at night.
    Blood could also have seeped from the ear after the head blow. Maybe she was put on the bed after the headblow was struck.
    For the genital wound is so clearly correlated with the cellulose splinter from the paintbrush (it was found in exactly the same spot where wound was), that the infliction of the wound is connected to the basement, wherethe paintbrush was kept.
    The foreign DNAX needn't necessarily have come from those stains; for assume they were blood, this would mean the blood was not JonBenet's, and Mary Keenan would probably have screamed such findings from the rooftops.
    This of course hard evidence. I vaguey recall having seen similar screenshots online (from a TV show I think); If anyone could dig them up here, TIA.
     
  10. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Found the screen shots here:

    [​IMG]

    Okay, here is a thread here discussing the TRANSCRIPTION of the screen shot from which this info came. It was all discussed many years ago when it was captured from one of Tracey's crocks:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9277&highlight=DNAX+nightgown

    Here is a transcript from that screen shot. (See below, from my original post and a discussion at the above link.)
    Here is the other screen shot from the lab reports:

    [​IMG]
     
  11. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I believe Steve Thomas didn't mention a lot of evidence. Remember, his book came out PRE-SMIT'S MEDIA BLITZ ATTACK. Until Smit came out with all the spin and PROPAGANDA he distributed, selected by him to promote Ramsey innocence, much of what we know now was not available. Of course, the price paid was that Smit didn't show anything he considered evidence AGAINST the Ramseys. Thomas, however, mostly wrote about evidence already leaked or discussed with the public. The Ramseys own book talked about some of this, as well, again selected for spin.

    Then there is also evidence that wasn't being focused on or hadn't been processed before Thomas left the case. In Thomas's Wolf deposition, he is asked about this and he clearly knew little about the significance of the size of the Bloomies, IMO. Remember, the medical examiner didn't even bother to take photos of the underwear ON JonBenet's body, Thomas revealed. So there has been evidence developed since then...mostly by JAYELLES, WHY NUT, AND PEOPLE LIKE US, sadly enough. :hopmad:

    Excellent observation! The only thing we don't know is if the prior molestation wounds were inflicted on her bed, in the basement, or where. Since they happened before that night, we don't have any proof one way or the other where. I personally believe that there was a crisis due to Patsy discovering that JonBenet was bleeding vaginally. Patsy probably noticed this in JonBenet's underwear, maybe as early as Dec. 17, when the three mysterious after hour calls to Dr. Beuf were made. Patsy said she didn't remember what for. If LE never bothered to check Dr. Beuf's records, I don't know why, as it would seem CRITICAL in such a murder investigation. Thomas mentioned some of these issues, but as we all know, Hunter was doing all he could to obstruct the investigation from DAY ONE, IMO, and I feel that Dr. Beuf was in on the cover up, as well, because his medical reputation was at stake. Why wouldn't there be a record of what Patsy called Dr. Beuf's office about? I don't understand that at all. But I digress....

    If JonBenet was molested within one to three days or so before her murder, it could have taken place in her bed and spots could have gotten on the pillowcase and maybe Patsy didn't notice, not making the beds up. The maid had changed the bedclothes and a timeline was established for this in the '98 interview. So those pillowcase bloodstains had to have happened after that. Precisely when, we don't know.

    Beckner would not be cornered on the DNAX, but it can be deduced from what he says that the DNAX donar was identified. That's because he says Wolf's DNA was not compared to it, but he is excluded from contributing to it, if memory serves. The only way Wolf could be excluded from contributing it without a comparison was if it had been sourced. Or maybe it was proven to be FEMALE, now that I think of that. They did test the maid's daughter somewhat late in the investigation, a few years?
     
  12. Voyager

    Voyager Active Member

    Kk....

    I have offered the opinion many times over the years that "The Good Dr" was involved in not only the cover-up of Jon Benet's murder but also in a longer term cover-up of Jon Benet's molestation.

    He and John were golfing buddies we found out and he had been Jon Benet's pediatrician for as long as they lived in Boulder...He HAD to suspect that something was UP.

    He was evasive with both questioning and his office records, some of which went in the same file as the Ramsey phone records, floating out there some place in the universe....

    Cover-up is an understatement for what Hunter, and John's other attorney and political buddies did with this murder case....One of the most shameful examples of obstruction of justice that I have come accross....

    Johnny-boy had friends accross a wide spectrum of society in Colorado and elsewhere and made (spelled purchased) friends like Smit as he needed them when the case heated up and headed toward a Grand Jury....

    Between Patsy's charm and religious flair and John's manipulation and money, they pretty well had the bases covered.

    Dr. Beuf was a real bonus for them, lying and protecting the family whenever approached....And like his buddies John and Patsy, he had a terrible memory doncha know! ....

    I think that his reputation in Boulder was damaged though by having this strong connection to the Ramsey case and he closed down his practice and moved, I believe shortly after the Grand Jury testimony....

    Would like to know where the Good Dr. is these days and if he has set up a pediatric practice in another city....Surely hope not.

    Voyager
     
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I completely agree with your run down of these people, Voyager. I cannot imagine covering up such abuse of a child for any reason, but then, I've learned that morals and justice are not on the list of character traits describing the many who obstructed this investigation.
     
  14. AMES

    AMES Member

    Apparently he is STILL in Boulder..but rumor has it...according to one of these links, that he is getting ready to retire. Apparently the parents of his patients think that he is great.

    http://www.thepediatriccenter.net/beuf.html

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/boulder-area/399547-pediatrician-doctor-recommendations.html

    http://local.yahoo.com/info-19641149-beuf-francesco-md-pediatric-center-boulder

    http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008/jun/13/its-good-to-follow-the-herd/
     
  15. Elle

    Elle Member

    KK Post #86

    KK

    From your post #86

    I personally don't think JonBenét was molested in her bed that night while she was still alive. The blood could have been caused by the staging shortly after she was dead, using part of the brush shaft to either destroy previous evidence of molestation in her vagina, or create the damage to make investigators think there was sexual play involved with the perpetrator. By the time the fake garrote was created and entangled in her hair, JonBenét was already dead or close to it.

    I think JonBenét was killed accidentally by her enraged mother, Patsy Ramsey, with the blow to the head from either striking against something - bathtub maybe, or by being thrown at it full force, or maybe with the flashlight in the kitchen (?).

    I haven't changed my thinking in years. I also think with the family heading for Charlevoix early the next morning, Patsy Ramsey's nerves were frazzled with all that she had been through that Christmas of 1996.
     
  16. AMES

    AMES Member

    I think so too. And I think that after the accidental blow to the head, that she was knocked unconsious. (I think that the neighbor that heard a child's scream, and then recanted her statement...actually was hearing Patsy, after she had realized what she had done). I think that Patsy probably yelled for John, and either he or Patsy or both..picked JB up and laid her on her bed, to try and revive her. IMO...she was most likely bleeding from either or all of these...her ears, nose and mouth. That is where I believe the blood stain came from. Also, refresh my memory..I am being too lazy to scroll up and read it myself..LOL...was it on the pillow CASE or the pillow itself?? If it was on the pillowcase, I don't know how Patsy could have missed it...now, if she bled through the pillowcase, and onto the pillow...and then Patsy CHANGED the original pillowcase, and didn't notice the blood stain on the actual pillow itself...that would make more sense.

    Edited to add..I just went back and looked at the interview, it looks as if they were talking about the pillow CASE. I wonder if Patsy washed and dried the sheets and pillowcase on JB's bed that night, and the blood stain did not come out. That is what it sounds like to me. Maybe, JB wet the bed, and then there was the blood that came from either her ears, nose, or mouth...or all the above...on the pillowcase, so Patsy washed and dried those and put them back on the bed. BECAUSE she knew that the housekeeper would know which sheets were on that bed, since she is the one that washed, dried, and put the bedding back on all the beds.
     
  17. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Actually, when housekeeper LHP was shown the crime scene photos of JBR's bed, she stated that the sheets on the bed were NOT the ones she put on the bed when she was last there (Dec. 23, the day of the R Christmas party). LHP was scheduled to return to the house Dec. 26, after the Rs had left for Charlevoix.
    The way I see it, according to LHP, JBR wet or soiled the bed nearly every night. PR would strip the bed each morning and put the sheets and the white blanket in the wash. LHP said that the white blanket was always washed in the basement because the washer/dryer was larger.
    I think that PR had to change the sheets herself, either Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, or both days. Most kids have more than one set of sheets, but only one blanket and blankets take longer to dry. So I think PR put clean sheets on the bed but didn't bother to go to the basement to get the white blanket. She made up the bed without it, leaving it for LHP to replace when she came back to clean. This is indicated by the photos themselves, which clearly show JBR's bed with the bedspread pulled down, the foot of the bed looking untouched, and no blanket on the bed.
    When questioned, in her depo PR is asked about the obvious absence of a blanket, and it was also pointed out to her that the bed was still made at the foot end, and there was no way a blanket was pulled off and the bed remained unmussed. She eventually did admit that yes, the bed had no blanket, and yes, the foot of the bed was neat and so it was unlikely anyone could have gotten her blanket out that way. She does not admit to making up the bed without the blanket, however, as the RST was trying to push the idea that the intruder had known the blanket was in the basement dryer and taken it to wrap her in.
    This idea is full of holes, as it more likely a kidnapper would not bother to even find a blanket to wrap her in- they simply wouldn't care if she was covered or not, nor would they take the time to look for and then wrap her in, a blanket. Actually, why wrap her at all? Just toss the cover over her. But the Rs wanted to make it look like she someone wrapped her in the blanket in her bed and took her that way. (supposedly after stun-gunning her). And the appearance of he bed indicates that did not happen.
     
  18. AMES

    AMES Member

    Yes, that is right...thanks DeeDee. I had forgotten about LHP saying that it was NOT the same sheets.
     
  19. Karen

    Karen Member

    According to the Bonita Papers and Patsys LE interview JB slept in Burkes room on Christmas Eve. That means there would have been only 2 opportunities for her to wet or the bed. The 23rd, the day LHP changed the sheets or Christmas night the 25. I myself do not believe JB ever made it to bed on Christmas night. So for me that would leave the 23rd, the night of the Christmas party(?). So that pretty much narrows it down. MO.
     
  20. Elle

    Elle Member

    Yes, we have discussed this before, Karen, the fact there may have been an arguement at the kitchen table when they returned from the White's party, and Burke may have taken a swipe at JonBenét while she was eating her pineapple, or Patsy (?). I don't see John Ramsey in this scene.

    JonBenét may never have made it to bed at all (?). It's good you brought this up again.
     
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