Three critical questions

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Okay, that's interesting.

    Then what happens for the next 90 minutes? In the house? Burke and/or his parents actions?
     
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Kolar reports that large pj bottoms were found in JB's room, believed to possibly be Burke's. I think he said they had feces in them? (Sorry, I'm burnt to a crisp about now, so someone please correct me if I'm mistaken in this.) I was thinking maybe it was the "pants" on the floor of JB's room. Patsy was asked about by Haney in '98 and he mentioned they had "skid marks" in them?

    I'm a little confused by the qualifiers Kolar used in reporting that potential evidence: it seems it would be quite important info, considering the abuses JB suffered before the night she was killed. I can't imagine a pair of boy's pj bottoms not being labeled as such, with "boy" designs or patterns on them? And if they had underwear in them, wouldn't "boy" underwear be obvious? If they didn't have underwear in them, then the "feces" would be strange indeed.

    I don't know. I can' hardly even write about this element Kolar exposed. Urine soaked sheets; feces on candy in the room; feces in pj bottoms in the room; JB sexually molested for some days or weeks prior to her death; all her constant respiratory illness; vaginitis; bed-wetting and feces in her bed.

    Dear god. What the hell was going on in that family?

    Remember the child abuse specialist who went into the home and observed these red flag elements in JB's room, who then was pulled off the case suddenly?
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2012
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I did read this post earlier, Karen, and I agree that the green garland could have gotten in her hair in a number of places around the house. She was also placed under the Christmas tree by Arndt.

    The thing about that blood on the pillowcase is that Patsy was questioned extensively about it by Haney in '98. The bed clothes had been changed within 3 to 5 days before the murder, according to the timeline he could squeeze out of Patsy. I'm sure LE asked Linda H-Pugh about it, because they must have thought it was pretty important to bring it up to Patsy. Of course, Patsy as being as evasive as she could on this point, which is one reason I can't let it go as insignificant. Another red flag.

    Patsy was flat out asked if JB had nosebleeds. She said no, but she might pick at her nose. I don't remember any mention in the autopsy of any scabs or abrasions to JB's nasal passages. She did have blood-tinged mucous dried on her face, and a droplet had made it to her upper right sleeve, the same side her face was turned to when she was brought up from the basement with rigor mortis.

    It is still hard to know what the heck happened. I have about a thousand questions, still.
     
  4. heymom

    heymom Member

    No, I don't remember that. When was that? Is there a thread about it?
     
  5. otg

    otg Member

    I'm still waiting to see if you use the term "bottom line" again while talking about BR's skid-marked PJs like you did in Post 60. :booty:

    (Where's the smilie for :ROFL:?)
     
  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Maybe you missed wombat's response to your post, Karen, because it wasn't quoted? But it was directly afterward, so I believe it was relating to your post:



    You know, something just popped into my head about the ligature.

    Some of us are speculating on Burke using that to silence his sister, to hide his attack on her? That's the train of thought I have been following, anyway.

    But if he were truly trying to hide hitting his sister and causing her to become unresponsive, tying a ligature on her would surely be the absolute proof he had done it, as far as his parents were concerned, wouldn't it?

    If she's just lying there, and there's no bleeding, but Burke struck the blow and heard the loud crack of her skull; if he's decided to run to bed and hide from what he did, hoping his parents would think she fell or something, then why would he prove to them it was him by tying a garrote on her and strangling her?

    Unless someone wants to make the argument it was all Burke; he staged everything, including the ransom note, to cover his own actions?

    I know the opinions expressed for the most part are he couldn't have done all of the staging; he was developmentally too young to write the ransom note, and he couldn't have picked her body up and put it in the cellar room--though apparently him possibly dragging it is on the table?

    But then there is what John said (allegedly): he didn't mean to hurt her, he wrapped her in a blanket?

    Oh. What if Burke took the blanket to her wherever she fell and lay still? Trying to wake her up? Comfort her? That might not have been in the cellar room. Maybe that's why the stagers used it, though?

    Blood on the gown. Burke and Patsy's DNA on the gown.

    Blood on the pillowcase. The blanket was not on the bed, and the bed appeared to have been made up without it, according to Haney in '98; even Patsy agreed. We can see in the crime scene photos of the bed it has the sheets and comforter in place as we'd expect after being slept in but unmade.

    Maybe Burke pulled the blanket out of the dryer and put it on JB on her bed, where she lay, trying to "undo" what he'd done?

    Maybe she was wearing that gown.

    Burke's pj's on the floor?

    Okay, gotta think about this.
     
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh no. I didn't.... :blush:

    The smilie for that is colon, floor, colon. :floor:

    Don't ask, cause I just lay around in the guttah here.... :fight:
     
  8. Nickii

    Nickii Member

    Maybe he took blanket AND pillowcase and the blood was transferred there. But then the pillowcase was placed back on the bed...
     
  9. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    It was way back. I'll see if I can find it again.

    While I'm at it, you mentioned a report with a name "blacked out," but I'm drawing a blank on which report. I probably have just forgotten, but can you refresh my memory?

     
  10. otg

    otg Member

  11. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh, good point. That would make sense.

    It would make even more sense if she were on the floor somewhere near her bed/bedroom, rather than on the bed where she already had covers. There was a washer/dryer unit outside there, and for some reason it's often speculated the blanket came out of the dryer, maybe with the gown clinging to it.

    Did we ever know if Patsy washed those things upstairs or in the basement?

    If in the basement, then that might be a good indicator right there where the head blow happened: if Burke put the blanket over her after hitting her down there.

    If upstairs, then it would make sense he got the blanket out of the dryer there, and maybe the pillow.

    OH! Haven't we discussed how odd it was that the pillow is on THE WRONG END OF THE BED?

    Gosh. That would explain that...at long last.
     
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, that's the one. Thanks so much. I"m sure it's actually here somewhere. But I have trouble with the FFJ search engine for some reason--it never turns up what I'm looking for.

    I would bet the farm ACR has it.
     
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Kolar is holding his cards close to the vest. In the Peter Boyles interview, he all but states he doesn't want to get sued.

    I know there is still info we don't know, but Kolar did say Burke's and Patsy's DNA were on the gown. Why wouldn't he tell us if either was on the ligatures? He tells us of unsourced DNA on the wrist and neck ligatures.

    Since the Ramseys made a big deal out of that not being their cord, of the "intruder" bringing it in, I think finding their DNA on it would have been pretty significant.

    Not that Team Ramsey (meaning Lacy and Hunter) would have felt it was important.... :moron:
     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Now there's something I hadn't really connected before. Not only would the front stairway have been easier and more practical to carry a child down, but the door to the basement was much closer to that stairway. Practically at the end of it, near the front door.
     
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    So here's the crime scene photo of the bed. Haney made the point the bed didn't look as if the blanket had been "pulled" from the covers, which would have disturbed the other bedding, and Patsy agreed. Sort of.

    [​IMG]

    Let me get the interview where they discussed this. BRB

    Okay, here is the Q & A: notice the position of the pj top, which Patsy says would have been under the pillow--that is where the pillow should have been. But it's at the foot of the bed.

    Also notice they agree the bed appeared to be "made" without the blanket. So the blanket would have come from SOMEWHERE ELSE--maybe a dryer, maybe a linen closet? Oh, that's important, isn't it? Because I'm thinking you nailed it, Nickii: the blanket and pillow were taken to her for comfort. That's why the pillow is back on the bed, tossed at the bottom, not in the place it should have been.

    And the blanket was used to lay her on and wrap her, "caring" by someone who loved her.

    So now the intruder not only vacuums up the window glass in the basement, but he makes beds, too?

    No wonder IDIs think it was the maid.
     
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Did I say good point?

    What I meant was...

    BRILLIANT!!

    I think you've cracked it! :takeabow:

    BECAUSE...why would either of the parents take a pillow from the bed TO the injured child?

    Why wouldn't they just pick her up and take her to the bed? Or a couch?

    But...Burke couldn't carry her.

    This would, once again, lead me to Burke being the one who struck the head blow. Especially with what Father Holverstock repeated from JR's statement: "He didn't mean to hurt her...." Then something about using the blanket to keep her warm?

    Oh, my brain is humming.

    Thinking...thinking....

    Okay, y'all think a while. I have to take a break. :catnap:
     
  17. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Did I say "take a break"?

    Yeah, right.

    From Kolar's book, page 88:

    Okay, talk me down.

    Because if Burke was the one who put the blanket on JonBenet, and John thought Burke didn't mean to kill her, then SHE SURELY DIDN'T HAVE THE LIGATURE ON HER NECK WHEN SHE WAS FOUND.

    Right?

    Because that would be pretty good evidence he exactly meant to kill her--tying a cord around her neck and pulling until she was dead.

    So if 90 minutes elapsed between the head blow and the strangulation, and Burke had time to get her pillow and a blanket and cover her, "undoing" the deed in his mind...then who found her/them?

    "We're not talking to you."

    "What did you find?"

    So back to this: did she fall by the paint tray? Did Burke then tie the ligature on her and pull it?

    But Patsy's fibers are tied into the knots. The duct tape she could have been there to apply as staging, just like JR's shirt fibers could have been from cleaning, redressing for staging...but the knots are very incriminating.

    OTG, didn't you say Burke had tied cord on JB's neck before, leading her around like a dog leash? Can you give me the source for that? It wasn't the LE interviews, was it?
     
  18. otg

    otg Member

    I have been looking and looking to try and find the original source for that, KoldKase. Seems like I read about it somewhat recently on one of the forums, because at the time it just really struck me as something immensely significant under the circumstances, and I couldn't believe I hadn't heard about it before. I want to say it was in one of the police interviews or in the Bonita Papers, but I haven't found it yet. All I found so far was about JonBenet and Daphne "playing kitty" by walking around on all fours. I'm not sure, but I believe it was DeeDee who I first heard mention it. Maybe she will remember the original source.
     
  19. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Patsy told the investigators about JB and her friend "playing kitty". Of course we don't know the expression on the investigators' faces, but if these were men who did not have little girls themselves they might have looked at Patsy with puzzled expressions. Patsy then made an odd comment- she said "OH, you don't like kitty?" But the investigators had not said anything,
     
  20. Karen

    Karen Member

    My only point about the ligature around her neck being tight and the wrist ligatures being loose was that the wrist ligatures look like staging and the neck ligature does not. It looks to me like it was meant to do what it did, no matter how it was constructed or used. It was too tight be be staging.
     
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