Pineapple and cream

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Kelly, Dec 25, 2008.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    That's what I would expect, too, Texan.

    The poster "learnin" at topix actually is an x-ray tech who has decades of experience taking those x-rays of the digestive system some of us have had the unpleasant opportunity to experience. The kind where you drink something like Pepto Bismal X 10, try not to throw up while it travels through you as an x-ray is being taken of that little trip. Learnin has insight into how long it takes pineapple to reach the small intestine where it was found in JonBenet for that reason. He not only has the experience, he asked several doctors about it, and then he did his own test on pineapple traveling through his own system. I'm going to ask him if I could bring his posts here on this.

    Learnin estimates it would have taken less than 30 minutes for the pineapple to go from being eaten to the small intestine of JonBenet. It could have taken as few as 10 minutes, he says. Of course, that's without other variables involved, like stress and illness, etc., which we have no way of knowing about. But it's interesting to take learning's observations and apply them to what we know, isn't it?
     
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    It is hard to tell what we're looking at because we never get to see that good of quality of photos, just what Team Ramsey decided we could see via quick shots from propaganda programs they promoted.

    Having said that, it does look like there is something milky in the bowl to me.
     
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I'm going to put some topix.com forum discussion and the results of an experiment done regarding the timeline for the digestion of pineapple here, with poster learnin's permission. I think it's very interesting as it really focuses the timeline in a way we haven't had done before, much like (Jayelles' experiment with the Bloomies' modeling).

    It has been a long and detailed discussion, however. So I'm going to include mostly pertinent posts from learnin and myself, because I have learnin's permission. I did include some quotes of others as they were pertinent, but if those posters want them removed, just tell me at topix on the thread.

    Otherwise, I've edited out other posts and some "quotes" which were being addressed because there are some contentious posters trying to disrupt the discussion, as usual, and I doubt they'd want their posts here anyway. Also, I don't want to copy the whole thread, either, so you can go to the link and read it in full if you want. This is a very good discussion of the pineapple, with the timeline and physiology clarified better than I've seen before.

    [I'm not sure if I should start a new thread, so if the mods think that would be better, I'll let them start a new thread and take this and the following posts there.]

    So I'll put the link and then the posts. Hope this is as informative for you as it is for me:

    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TQ01C2AUAVTNAV02M

     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2009
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Continuting the discussion at topix.com:

    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TQ01C2AUAVTNAV02M/p2

    learnin
    Onaga, KS
    Reply »
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#30 Thursday Aug 6
    Judged:
    2
    2
    1
    [Quote snipped which was alleging the amount of time the pineapple stayed in the small intestine was more important than how long it took to move through the stomach into the small intestine.]

    You're wrong. See my experiment results above. The biggest obstacle, facing, food fragments, in the upper G. I. tract, is the duodenal cap. Once peristalsis manages to squeeze food particles past this, food generally races through the small intestine just as mine did. The pineapple I ate, once past the duodenal cap, raced through the loops of the small intestine.

    I have seen colostomies, placed at the end of the small intestine, thereby bypassing the large intestine; I've seen these colostomies pour out food within 30 minutes of being eaten...having made it through the entire small intestine


     
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Continued topix.com pineapple discussion:

    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TQ01C2AUAVTNAV02M/p5

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [The following post is being put here out of order: the response from learnin to my question above was further along in the actual thread, but I'm putting it here to keep the point focused.]

    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TQ01C2AUAVTNAV02M/p7

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TQ01C2AUAVTNAV02M/p6

     
  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Continuing pineapple discussion from topix.com:

    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TQ01C2AUAVTNAV02M/p7

     
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Continuing from topix.com pineapple discussion:

    http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TQ01C2AUAVTNAV02M/p8

    [Again, out of order answer from learnin, for continuity.]


     
  8. madeleine_ws

    madeleine_ws Member

    The IDI's have a theory re all this (don't recall the title of that documentary with the psychics :duh: )
    The intruder walked in on JB when she was in the kitchen having pineapple by herself. :duh:
     
  9. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    hhmmm

    I certainly believe the pineapple could move from the stomach within 30 minutes. What has to be reconciled then is the state of rigor mortis when JBR was found with the approximate time of death - I believe I have read that the rigor was consistent with her death occurring between midnight and 1 AM. I could be wrong about that, does anyone else recall the estimated time of death? Anyway, if the pineapple does enter the small intestine and move rapidly from there, then she ate the pineapple well after she got home from the Whites(or maybe we can't believe the Ram's got home about 9:30 PM but much later). With BR's fingerprints on the bowl then there are 3 possibilities, 1. BR and JBR were awake much later than the families arrival home from the Whites (this would have to be between 11:30 PM and 12:30 AM based on the eta of the pineapple to the small bowel) 2. the bowl of pineapple was left out on the table after BR finished eating and JBR got some at a later time than BR or 3. BR finished and the bowl was returned to the frig and later brought out and JBR ate some then.
    The pineapple evidence is very important - second only to the ransom note imo. That is why the RST would have you believe it was eaten before they went to the Whites (I don't think that is a possibility) or that it was eaten before they got home from the Whites. Because the pineapple makes the Ramseys' suspects. Without the pineapple, their story that they came home and put her straight to bed and never saw her alive again is a possibility (with the exception of the silly ransom note of course).
    It strains the logical mind to believe an intruder would take the time to feed JBR her favorite snack in the middle of the night when the intruder could be interrupted at any moment by another member of the family. If you were criminally inclined, would you do that?
     
  10. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Very interesting posibility outlined re the pineapple moving very fast.
    Reminds me of the research EasyWriter (D. England) did in that field checking digestion rates of pineapple; he too concluded JonBenet could have died shortly (ten to twenty minutes IIRF) after ingesting the pineapple.

    Suppose it was that close, and if she ate pineapple shortly after coming home, with Burke's figerprints being on the bowl, then imo it is highly unlikely Burke did not know what happened; he may even have been an eyewitness, if not actively involved in her death, striking the head blow in a fierce sibling fight for example.
    ST wrote that Burke was evasive when asked about the pineapple, stating he "couldn't remember" whether they had a snack of pineapple after coming home from the Whites'.
     
  11. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I agree. I cannot rule Burke out as having some part in the violence and/or abuse acted upon JonBenet.

    Was that info from Thomas in his book? I can look it up if you don't remember.
     
  12. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    shortly after they got home

    If the Ramseys got home around 9:30 and the time of death was between midnight and 1 AM (based on rigor mortis) then either the pineapple moved slower than usual through her system or JBR and BR didn't share the pineapple shortly after arriving home. The math doesn't fit. It's a puzzle isn't it?
     
  13. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    IIRC, the info about Burke saying he couldn't remember is in ST's book.
     
  14. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    The body was in full rigor mortis when found. For how long does a body stay in full rigor?
    Suppose she died at some time between 10 p.m and 11 p.m. on Dec 25th, would the body still have been in full rigor when she was found at 1 p.m. on Dec 26th?
     
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I thought the body was not in full rigor when found. I thought the head, upper arms and torso were in stiff with rigor, but the rigor wasn't complete yet in the legs. The scale is numbers, as Dr. Meyers used some numbers in defining the rigor at autopsy.

    Rigor begins at the head and moves downward through the upper extremities and torso, then into the lower parts of the body. It takes ABOUT 12 hours, but circumstances affect the pace, don't they? Like temperature, for example. The cellar room was very cool, wasn't it? That's why they called it the "wine room." Do you remember, Texan, if cool temps slow or speed up rigor? I'm thinking cold slows it. Then the body lay upstairs in heated space, but on the floor, until it was taken to the morgue and refrigerated until autopsy.

    Sorry, I'm fresh out of memory here, but off the top of my head, I was thinking that the low body fat on JonBenet's body, small muscles, etc., also play a part in the speed of rigor. I know we've had this discussion but it's been many years. If no one else remembers, I'll look up some of this tomorrow. Too tired tonight.

    At any rate, once rigor is fully set, it stays that way for ABOUT 12 hours, again with conditions affecting the timing, and then reverses the same way it started, from the head down. I noticed today when looking at the autopsy for another issue that Dr. Meyers said the head, arms, and torso were losing rigor, with the numbers 1 and 2 used to signify how much, at the time of the autopsy.

    Anyway, this confusion is why I can't put my money on a specific TOD. Neither could Dr. Meyers, apparently.
     
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    Thanks.
     
  17. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    It fits. Coroner estimates the pineapple would take about 2 hours to reach the small intestine (where it was found). If she ate it around 10ish, and died between midnight and 1 am, the timeline fits perfectly. The Ramsey's say the arrived home AROUND 9:30 or so. To me, the pineapple was exactly where it was supposed to be. Obviously she didn't eat it as soon as she walked in the door. But she had it within the timeframe to be in the small intestine when she was killed.
     
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    DeeDee, do you have a source for the coroner--I'm assuming you mean Dr. Meyers--saying it took the pineapple 2 hours to digest? I either missed that or have just forgotten. (Probably forgotten, sadly enough.)

    The reason I ask is because if Dr. Meyers said this, why couldn't he come up with a TOD? Not to mention, the long discussion of 12 years trying to determine this is rather moot if Dr. Meyers already made this statement.... :blush:
     
  19. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Meyer's inability to put a TOD on his report may not have been accidental. He was sloppy in his methods. There were TWO other procedures he should have done at that very first encounter with the body at the R home as she lay under the Christmas tree. (shudder).
    He should have taken a liver stab- done with a special thermometer to take a core body temperature, done in the liver of a body "in situ" (where it lays). A body loses heat in a predictable way, dropping by degrees gradually till it reaches the ambient temperature in the surroundings. The core temperature gives a fairly accurate TOD this way. Meyer failed to do this.
    Also, an even more accurate method is to take a sample of the vitreous fluid of the eyeball. Potassium levels are altered by death. It is more accurate to measure that, because it is not affected by ambient temperature. Meyer also failed to do this. He spent 10 minutes with the body. He noted her clothing and the position of her body. That was pretty much it. He likely pronounced her dead and signed a death certificate. But he did nothing else.
    Meyer did not mention in his report how long the pineapple would take to reach her small intestine- he merely noted that it was found there. That is not unusual. Any medical doctor or ME would know this information.
     
  20. Elle

    Elle Member

    I agree with you DeeDee. Dr. Meyers should have been ashamed of his ten minute examination of JonBenét's body. He was sloppy!

    Thank you for this valuable information DeeDee!

    I am enjoying all the excellent posts here!
     
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