In which room do you think the head blow occurred?

I don't know that anything had to have happened. Patsy saw that her daughter was dead and she saw that her son caused that death. It could be that she was aware of JonBenet's prior sexual abuse but, even if she wasn't, this was a woman who was all about image. She would've had to realize how "messy" this would all be and how Burke would be branded a monster for killing his sister. JonBenet was gone and there was nothing that could be done to save her but I believe Patsy, in deep shock and grief, probably felt that she couldn't lose her only other child.

I've thought a lot about Patsy since reading Kolar's book. Let me state right off the bat, I will NEVER excuse her and John's terrible behavior in throwing innocent people under the Ramsey "We're Too Good to Have Done This" Gospel Train, but I do feel a certain sympathy for her when I think of those terrible hours of realizing JonBenet was dead. From a probably greatly anticipated trip on the Big Red Boat to spending all night working over the battered body of your baby girl - whew, that's pretty hard to digest.

 

I'm sure it was Koldkase who posted the photo, Cherokee, not too long ago!
I'll look through them again.

KK had a closeup of these clubs still in a box. Hope I haven't made a mistake Cherokee (?). I'm going through her photographs right now but so far I don't see the box I'm talking about. I'm sure it was blue.

Cherokee, please don't waste your time looking just in case I got mixed up while looking at the photos KK posted recently. I'll go over
her recent photos.

 

I don't know about the new golf clubs, but there was a plethora of golf clubs in that house. The ones I know of are the three bags shown in the photos below, the loose ones in the closet we found out about recently in the Daily Beast video, and the one putter I've heard several times was found outside the house. All but the one outside were in the basement.

 

Thank you for asking me this Cherokee. I may have even innocently mixed in the golf clubs with the Christmas present conversation. I was looking at the photos of JonBenét sitting beside another photo of some black and white boxes, and I wonder if I screwed up(?). I will do my best to be more careful in future.

otg

I was thinking I had seen children's golf clubs.

 

Thanks, OTG! Those are the golf clubs I was thinking of, besides the loose clubs in the train room closet we saw in the basement video (of which we now have screen captures thanks to KK). http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=190493&postcount=2

So all of the golf clubs were in the basement except for the one found outside.

 

It's okay, Elle. It's easy to get confused with all the information out there and all the many posts that have been made.

 

Okay, tell me this. She had already been redressed before she was strangled, and when she died, from the strangulation, she wet her clothing all over again. Why did they redress her before they strangled her? Did they not know that people release their bladder contents (sometimes, bowels) when they die? Was it because there was blood in her underwear before she was changed? Maybe a LOT of blood? If we could find those panties (I'm sure they were destroyed/disposed of as soon as the cover-up started), if LE had found them, a lot more questions would have been asked, I feel certain.

Maybe by that time, they felt they couldn't hide/get rid of/destroy yet one more set of clothing, and they had plumb run out of Wednesday Bloomies in any case.

And about those Wednesday Bloomies...Why was it so important that she was wearing the same day panties? Did someone see JonBenet in those panties at the Whites' house? I suppose that someone may have helped her in the bathroom...If so, then it would look very suspicious if she turned up dead wearing a different pair from her drawer...After her parents said they put her to bed that night and never heard another peep out of her...

This underwear thing has me really puzzled. LE never followed through on anything, but the Ramseys were thinking ahead of them and trying to close all the open loose ends to their story. I just don't know why the underwear would have been such an issue.

You said they weren't thinking of details when they staged the crime scene, but putting her into the same day panties WAS a detail, that John would not have thought of, but Patsy would have. Although she played stupid for LE when they interviewed her, I believe she knew what JonBenet was wearing, whether or not she had bathed, etc. Patsy was anything but a lazy mother - she was a stage mother, and those types are not known for being relaxed about details.

 

I didn't say they weren't thinking of details; I said they possibly weren't thinking of THAT specific detail - that unwashed size 12 panties would be a lot bigger on JonBenet than a washed pair.

I know they thought of many details as they tried to make the crime scene believeable, but there is no way they could think of everything. That's one way LE can tell if a crime scene is staged or not.

Of course, it's just speculation on my part as to why they chose the oversized Bloomies because I have no way of knowing (at this point) WHY they chose to do anything they did as part of the cover-up and staging. As a parent, I would have been in such shock and grief, I don't think I could have thought of any detail, much less how to stage a crime scene, but the Ramseys obviously had a driving force to keep them on task - the saving of Burke and their family reputation.

From the evidence we know, and from the autopsy report, it appears to me that they had already wiped down and re-dressed JonBenet BEFORE the ligature strangulation. It's conceivable they thought she was already dead, and whoever did the cover-up molestation with the missing part of the paintbrush had caused some bleeding into JonBenet's underwear. So she was changed and wiped down (there were fibers from John's shirt found in the crotch of her underwear), and then she was placed on her stomach for the ligature. When it was pulled tight, JonBenet finally died, possibly to the surprise of the stager (who either didn't know or think about bladder/bowel release upon a death), and a small amount of urine was released into the oversized undies, the long-johns and onto the carpet in front of the "wine cellar" door.

It could have been the urine was such a small amount, the stager didn't even notice as he picked up JonBenet and placed her in the white blanket. IMHO, that's why there is both blood and urine stains in the oversized underwear found on JonBenet, but only urine on the long-johns. A tiny amount of blood must have leaked from JonBenet's vaginal opening AFTER the urine release and AFTER she was moved from being on her stomach on the carpet. In fact, the act of moving her could have caused the extra bit of blood to leak out. That's also why the urine release didn't wash away the tiny amount of blood in JonBenet's underwear. It happened BEFORE the subsequent blood seep.

The stager had thought they had cleaned up all the blood on JonBenet's lower extremities previous to the ligature strangulation, and they had gotten rid of the panties originally worn by JonBenet. But the urine release upon death, and then the tiny amount of blood leakage from JonBenet's vagina after that, ended up causing stains on the oversized, size 12 panties in which she had been redressed.

 

Perfectly understandable, Elle. With all the clubs they had, I doubt they could keep up with them all.

Needless to say, there were plenty of potential shillelaghs all over the basement.

 

No kidding!

And I had another thought after seeing the photos you posted.

The two golf club bags in the basement hallway have head covers on the clubs, but the bag of clubs in the other room (next to the storage boxes) does not, and I doubt if the loose clubs in the "train room," with the heads on the floor, had covers either.

If Burke picked up a golf club in a rage to hit JonBenet, I seriously doubt he would have taken the time to remove the head cover from the golf club! Therefore, the golf club that was used had to have come from either that single bag in the one basement room, or from the loose clubs in the "train room."

By photo comparison, can we place that single golf club bag in a particular room in the basement, or do you already know what room it is from?

 

The head covers go on the woods, not the irons. So not all of the clubs are covered. In fact, the putters fit the shape of the hole in JonBenet's skull and since those are not covered, they would be readily available without removing the cover.

In that little storage room, are we SURE those are golf club handles? I am thinking that from the photo you just put up, it looks more like curtain rods. Golf clubs have grips on the ends, not just bare metal.

 

IMHO, those ARE black rubber grips at the end of the metal rods. I'll circle them in a photo and post it for you.

 

Ha ha, shows what I know about golf! I was looking at the big black mitts on the golf clubs in the cellar hallway and didn't see the small metal golf club heads poking up out of the one bag until you mentioned it.

 

Here are two more screen captures KK did of the "train room" video that shows the golf clubs more clearly.

 

Why have so many golf clubs anyway?

I guess this isn't so important, but why would John Ramsey need so many golf clubs? I guess one set might have been Patsy's, but still.

All this explains JR's overheard utterance - Did you get my golf clubs - when they were getting out of town.

Also, I wonder, if your son had whacked his sister on the head with a golf club a little while back, would you have so many clubs laying around? They didn't pay attention with what was important with those kids, did they?

 

Yeah, I don't play but my son and husband have clubs. They almost never play but we have the sets. Sometimes when the weather is nice I will go along and drive the golf cart, which is fun.

 

To me, the ones in the closet look like junior clubs, and they are in there all helter-skelter, no bag. The two bags in the hallway look like adult sets and may have both belonged to John, or maybe Patsy had her own set. The bag on the left - are we 100% certain it's a golf bag? I don't see any clubs and it looks as if it's sitting up on top of something so that it's taller....Is there another view of that hallway that would show us? I would LOVE to look through the inventory of what the police took out of that house, and also what PAM PAUGH took out on her evidence raid...She did get the golf clubs didn't she?

And I would be very curious to know whether John Ramsey still plays any golf. Or if Burke has. Something tells me that pastime may have stopped right after that night.

 

Who knows? There was only a partial inventory taken of everything Pam Paugh got in her raid on the house. No one knows, except for Pam, exactly everything she took. The raid was done haphazardly, with little to no oversight, which was what Hunter's office authorized, right down to Pam wearing a BPD jacket as a disguise.

John still plays golf, all over Michigan now. When he was still in Atlanta, he played there also. We even have a news article that was published by the Atlanta paper, with photos of John on the golf course. The link is broken now, but luckily, we saved the entire article.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=133567&postcount=1

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http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metr...212ramsey.html

Tues, Dec. 12, 2006

Hope drives JonBenet's dad to forge new life, but slowly

By MICHELLE HISKEY
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 12/12/06

Rich Addicks/Staff

John Ramsey looked back on events in his life, including his daughter JonBenet's murder, during a round of golf. 'What really bugs me is the tag line that's always under [JonBenet's] picture that says 'child beauty queen,'' he said. 'She was so much more than that. ... She was our spark plug. She was 100 percent Patsy.'

The foursome who cut in front of him are playing slowly, as if every shot is costing them money.

It starts to rain, and he doesn't have a jacket or an umbrella.

He could quit, but he's on the 16th tee box, a long walk from the shelter of the clubhouse. Mired in this chosen misery, Ramsey simply shrugs, smiles and swings away.

More than anything, Ramsey the golfer and Ramsey the survivor hold on to hope.

When you've lost two daughters and a wife, and lived through the hell of public suspicion that you've murdered your littlest one, hope is what keeps you going.

[skip]

Ramsey takes another whack at the ball as the rain falls. He recalls the advice of his father, who taught him the game when he was a kid in Nebraska.

"Don't say a word about the shot until it lands," his father would say.

You never know how a shot will end up. A bad one can get a lucky bounce and end up fine.

[skip]

That means plenty of time for golf. He plays when someone invites him, usually a half-dozen times a year.

"I was going to check the air in my tires, but I can do that tomorrow," he says, laughing. "My schedule is wide open."

On the course, Ramsey looks like just another businessman trying to break 100 — except for his temper. He stays on an even keel, barely saying "shoot" over a bad shot and mostly joking that another one in the trees "shows that I'm back on my game."

"I've had worse," he often says as he finds another ball off the fairway.

Showing up with a golf bag that is missing a strap and head covers, he's not playing to impress anyone. Yet his competitive nature rises in his smile about how he won his Ping B60i putter in a bet two decades ago. He never bothered to take the sales sticker off the bottom.

His best shot this round comes on the second hole, when his perfectly struck wedge shot from 20 yards falls in the cup — for a bogey 4.

[skip]

He lost his vivacious partner — a former Miss West Virginia — and the spirit that had kept them together through so much.

"Eighty percent of couples end up divorced after the loss of a kid," he says. "When you are really devastated, you look at your spouse to carry you, and they can't because they're just as devastated. We would tell each other, 'We're not going to have any pity parties.' "

When they met, she was in marketing and played golf regularly, unaware of the nuances of the game.

"She liked to tell the story about how she saw an advertisement for a better short game," Ramsey says. "She thought that meant she'd be able to play in two hours, not five."

[skip]

On this blustery, balmy day, the pre-winter turf of East Lake provides a fitting backdrop for a man in transition, who never sought public attention and is trying to make the best of what's left after so much has been taken away.

This course, one of Atlanta's oldest, was nearly forsaken until a developer renovated it and brought back its luster.

[skip]

And that hope carries over at East Lake. Not many golfers would be happy with Ramsey's 108. But they're not him.

"I hit a lot more good shots than usual," he says in a chipper voice.

Seeing beyond the score — that's hope, in John Ramsey's world.

 

I believe I've found the answer to where the single bag of golf clubs was store in the basement. Comparing photographs with the basement blueprints, it looks like they were in the storage room next to the laundry.

 

I can tell you that it's not unusual for a family that enjoys golf to have lots of sets. My husband just upgraded his set (again!) so now he has two sets. I have a set. We have a left handed set for my college daughter. We have a junior size set. We have another set that both our boys use when they are home.

And, in case you're wondering - we are NOT a hoarding type family. I think we keep the junior clubs in hopes of using them with grandkids when that day comes. The others we assume our children will take when they land somewhere permanent.