In which room do you think the head blow occurred?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Learnin, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. cynic

    cynic Member

    Livor can shift and dissipate within certain time frames. I spent some time with the Rebecca Zahau case (which is another case involving money over justice) and the following is an exchange between the chief ME and a reporter involving the victim who was found hanging for at least 3 or so hours, then cut down and placed on a lawn for hours
    Dr. Lucas: The photographs that I can recall of the top of my head, I never saw anything that would be inconsistent with the scenario as we understand it, so I didn’t see anything out of sorts, I didn’t see lividity against gravity and especially if she’s only been dead for a few hours lividity is going to transfer real quick.
    Reporter: So your opinion is that if someone had examined the body right when she was cut down and if she had been there for say three hours there would have been some noticeable lividity in her feet and once she lay there for a half a day then the lividity from her feet went away.
    Dr Lucas: Yes, the moment she was cut down if there was a photograph when that occurred it’s logical to conclude that she would have had lividity in her feet, probably her hands as well, but she was so fresh when she was brought down that that would have re-settled pretty quickly.

    (For those who are familiar with the Zahau case, what he said about livor mortis is true in general but he made some specific errors which I won’t go into.)

    Here is an overview of my research on lividity
    LM in its earliest stages has the appearance of dull red patches, the time frame is 20-30 min after death, but this may be delayed for up to 2, or rarely 3 hours. The patches of livor then deepen, increase in intensity, and reach a maximum extent and intensity within about 6-10 h, but sometimes as early as 3 h or as late as 16 h.
    After anywhere from about 4-12 h, the lividity becomes 'fixed' and repositioning the body, e.g. from the prone to the supine position, will result in a dual pattern of lividity, as the primary distribution will not fade completely but a secondary distribution will develop in the newly dependent parts.

    Here is some more on when "fixing" occurs:
    It may offer some indication as to whether the position of a body has been altered after it has become fixed (about 4 to 8 hours).
    Fracis E. Camps, Practical forensic medicine, pp.104

    After 8 to 12 hours lividity becomes "fixed" and will remain where it originally formed.
    Simpson and Knight, Forensic Medicine pp. 9

    After about 10-12 hours the lividity becomes "fixed" and repositioning the body, e.g. from the prone to the supine position, will result in a dual pattern of lividity since the primary distribution will not fade completely. Fixation of lividity is a relative, rather than an absolute, phenomenon, but nevertheless, well developed lividity fades very slowly and only incompletely. Duality of the distribution of lividity is important because it shows that the body had been moved after death. However, the timing of this movement of the body is inexact.
    Prof. Derrick J. Pounder., Department of Forensic Medicine, University of Dundee
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2012
  2. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    And as we know, JB had only ONE livor pattern. She wasn't moved around.
     
  3. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    A couple comments about the livor mortis thing. After the headblow, JBR was still alive for (according to Kolar) any where between 45 minutes and two hours. During this time, livor mortis would not have begun, no? So, during this time, JBR could have been turned on her stomach, side, etc., without having any effect on lividity. It was only after she was turned on to her stomach, and the ligature tightened, that livor mortis would have begun. She was no doubt taken, shortly thereafter, to the wine cellar.

    So, I think, koldkase, JBR could have laid on the basement floor for 45 minutes or longer, after the headblow; could have been moved around or not at all, before the ligature was tightened and livor mortis, on JBR's posterior side, wouldn't dispute that.
     
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks, cynic, DeeDee, and Learnin. Y'all are so much better at this technical stuff than I am. ♥♥♥

    I can't remember now where I was reading that got me off on the livor mortis, but I agree there was only one pattern and that was why I was looking at the timeline between death outside the cellar room and being moved into the cellar room, where she lay for at least 7 hrs. before she was brought upstairs.

    She was already in developing rigor at that point; so she was laid by JR onto the floor near the front door for a short time, then moved by Arndt to a spot near the Christmas tree. She lay there until after 8 pm, when the coroner/medical examiner, Dr. Meyer, went into the crime scene. His asst. was already there, I think I remember.

    Then she was zipped into a body bag and moved to the morgue/medical examiner's facilities? Where she would have been under refrigeration until the next morning, when she was autopsied, right?

    But by then, the livor mortis was set, and so the white lines on her back we see in the autopsy photos are from her clothing, which would have resulted from her being on her back on the hard surfaces.

    I was looking at the autopsy report, and Meyer describes livor mortis on the right side of her face, pronounced enough at autopsy, some 30+ hrs. after death, for him to state it was difficult to see the petechial hemorrhages on her right eyelid? Did I get that right?

    Then there is that photo, taken by the medical examiner, of her in situ at the home, with her hands bagged. She appears to be lying on her left side in that photo, so she was turned for the photo?

    And her arms/hands, which should have been in substantial rigor by that point, are not at all in the position we so often have concluded from the "illustration" we've seen of her lying on her back, arms stretched out high above her head/body. Instead, in that photo, they're almost in a "prayer-like" position in front of her, like she was asleep on her bed, on her side.

    I can't tell you how that confuses me.

    For example, if she had her pillow under her head, while lying on her right side, after the head blow, her blood on it would be explained. It would have drained there as it ran down the right side of her face, as we can see from the autopsy photos.

    So where did the pillow figure into all of this? Found at the bottom of her bed, not where it would have normally been, according to Patsy herself.

    Since the bed was in the standard "made" position, as far as the sheets and comforter--with the blanket not having been pulled out of place, i.e.--the blanket has been deduced to have been in the dryer. Or somewhere in a linen closet or laundry basket...?

    Of course, none of this is what we've been told, so...I'm wandering around in the twilight zone here.

    And how does this fit into where the body was found in the cellar?

    I guess I'm wondering why Burke, a child, if he found himself "comforting" his dying sister in his own way, would look for a specific blanket, and a specific pillow from her own bed? If he were in the basement, for example, would he run up two flights of stairs to get "her" pillow from her bed, and look for "her" blanket? As opposed to just grabbing a pillow and afghan from a couch or chair on the first floor?

    Or was John Ramsey just misleading LE and his friends when he said "he"--the killer--didn't mean to hurt her, he put a blanket on her to keep her warm (approx. quote)? Meaning JR couldn't quite separate what actually happened from the staging in his own mind yet? Or meaning "we've staged the scene and you should think this killer cared for JB and knew her--an inside job"?

    Which is more speculation.

    But what I'm getting at, or hoping someone will see something I can't, is this: does the blood on the pillowcase found on the bed and the use of that particular blanket tell us anything?

    Does the fact that she had only one pattern of livor mortis tell us anything? Like, was the livor mortis set before she was even found at 1 pm? If she'd been lying in that position in the cellar for around 12 hrs, in other words, strangled around 1 am?

    More specifically: she was back home around 9 pm; she ate pineapple; she was bludgeoned; approx. an hour or two later she was strangled?

    Hey, what if she never even made it to her bedroom at all? What if she was downstairs, ate some pineapple, and then was struck?

    Kolar believes this happened on the first floor, I believe he said on the Peter Boyles show, right?

    He certainly knows things he's not telling, particularly from the grand jury.
     
  5. Elle

    Elle Member

    I thought Jonbenét and Burke may have had a squabble at the table over the pineapple before bedtime, KK. Believable!
     
  6. cynic

    cynic Member

    You're right, it was during the PB interview that he expressed that opininion
    Kolar: “I think she was struck in the kitchen or the dining room where the pineapple was being consumed and then moved downstairs afterward.â€
    @3:00 – 3:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcBudyKeOFo
     
  7. cynic

    cynic Member

    This is the reason that I started thinking that it was important to try and see if we could make some progress in determining the type of weapon used.
    In a spontaneous killing with a blunt object, let’s face it, it’s availability that determines the weapon. (Unless she was flung at high velocity into a surface, which I believe has a number of issues that make it far less likely, although not out of the realm of possibility.)
    For example if it was the flashlight, it adds credence to the kitchen as the likely area.
    If it was a golf club, then I believe it was more probable that it was the basement where it seemed you couldn’t walk more than a few steps before you tripped over one.
     
  8. cynic

    cynic Member

    Perhaps what’s making it difficult for you in this instance is that you are looking at what might have been logical for YOU, i.e. grab the nearest soft pillow, as opposed to the first thing that might have popped into Burke’s head, “I’ve got to grab a blanket and pillow to help her rest and maybe she’ll wake up faster. I’ll grab the stuff from her bed. I know I can get both things there.” (Although he would have had to do some more looking for the blanket?)
     
  9. Karen

    Karen Member

    I wonder if the blanket was in the basement dryer?

    I thought either Patsy or LHP said the heavier items such as blankets were washed and dried in the basement?

    I just wanted to add I've always thought that "garrote" looked like a toy. Something a kid would manufacture while playing with those items. It doesn't look to me like something John Ramsey would construct. That leaves Patsy or Burke. I've always had a problem with the notion Patsy strangled Jonbenet.
     
  10. cynic

    cynic Member

    I couldn't say for sure if the blanket had been on her bed that night. Often we wash our bedding in the large washer and dryer, which were in the basement, rather than use the smaller stackable unit on the second floor. Could the blanket and nightgown have been removed from that dryer?
    Death of Innocence, page 287

    By the end of the summer, Patsy was trying to get her to do without them. Then JonBenét started wetting the bed again. Almost every day I was there, there was a wet bed. Patsy said she wasn’t going to use Pull-Ups again. She just put a plastic cover on the bed. No big deal to her. By the time I’d come in the morning, Patsy would have all the sheets off the bed and in the laundry. JonBenét’s white blanket would already be in the dryer. The Ramseys had two washer-dryers—one in the basement and a stackable unit in a closet just outside JonBenét’s room.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 237
     
  11. cynic

    cynic Member

    That's the way I see it.
    I believe that this picture depicts the correct position:
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4001&stc=1&d=1258521793

    Her arms would have been close to the position that this baby has, although I think that JonBenet’s arms would have been a bit higher.

    [​IMG]

    The “artist’s depiction†of JBR that we’ve seen for years has her arms up far too high, IMO.
    http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetbody1.jpg

    The picture that you described as resembling “praying†must have been taken after someone, (presumably Meyer?) broke rigor in the arms perhaps to allow for a particular picture to be taken
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3921&stc=1&d=1256064716

    More description, but not necessarily helpful.
    Then he saw two little hands sticking out from under the blanket.
    “Oh my God, oh my God,†he cried.
    JonBenét was lying on the floor, partly wrapped in the blanket. Her hands were extended over her head and appeared to be tied together. There was tape covering her mouth.
    [SNIP]
    As Ramsey emerged from the stairwell carrying his daughter with his arms now around her waist, he turned and met Detective Arndt. JonBenét’s hands were still extended above her head. A string hung from her right wrist; a bright red mark, the size of a quarter, was visible at the base of her throat. Ramsey placed JonBenét on a rug, just inside the front doorway. Arndt could see the child’s lips were blue.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 18 - 19

    John Ramsey emerged from the basement carrying the body of JonBenét, not cradled close but held away from him, his hands gripping her waist. The child’s head was above his, facing him, her arms were raised high, stiffened by rigor mortis, and her lips were blue. The child was obviously dead.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 30
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  12. Elle

    Elle Member



    Koldkase,

    Help me out here, please. Many moons ago, I remember reading Patsy wanted JonBenét to wear a red sweater top and black pants to the White's Xmas party, 1996 , to match her own outfit, and JonBenét rebelled and wore the white top with the star. At this moment I'm reading page 124-125 and Kolar states the initial reporting by Patsy of JonBenét going to bed in a red turtleneck top had changed. Kolar doesn't state what she wore, but she was found in the white top- with the star.

    There is a photo on page 125 "not in colour" of the red top on the right side of JonBenét's sink, bunched up. I wondered if Patsy had been spiteful that night. because JonBenét refused to wear it to match Patsy's outfit, Patsy may well have put it on her out of spite and all hell broke loose, and Patsy lost it! (?).

    Haven't got the patience to wait until I come across more news about this red top, but I'm not seeing it right now. Is there any more mention
    of this?

     
  13. cynic

    cynic Member

    I hope you don't mind hearing it from me rather than KK :) , but the answer is no, there is no further mention of it.
     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Ah. That's it. RIGHT THERE.

    I'm no coroner. Nor am I a medical examiner. So this may be a simple question for others.

    Not for me.

    Why?

    Why would he break rigor in her arms at that point?

    There has to be a reason. As far as evidence, it seems like a bad choice unless there were a very specific need to do it. I mean, there might be bruising from that alone, right? She's clothed; evidence hasn't been totally collected from her body yet, so might be disturbed by something so violent as breaking rigor.

    Why would Meyer do that?

    Anybody?
     
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    That's another piece of evidence that bothers me.

    What's the significance of this red top? Surely she isn't wearing it at the Whites or it would have been mentioned by now as photos of her at the Whites' party exist, right?

    So if she was wearing the white star top at the Whites', and was found in it, other than Patsy telling LE early that morning that's what she was wearing, when clearly she was later "found" in something else, why does this red top keep getting so much attention?

    Is there something they're not telling us? Something I'm completely missing?

    Or is this another red herring brought on by yet another changing of story from the Ramseys?
     
  16. heymom

    heymom Member

    Maybe he couldn't get a clear view of that mark on her face unless he moved her arms. ??
     
  17. heymom

    heymom Member

    I totally agree with you Karen. It doesn't look at all menacing in any way, but just a spur-of-the-moment construction. It never had the appearance of a killing tool. I think Burke could have made this. I really wonder how much of this he carried out himself.
     
  18. cynic

    cynic Member

    It was probably to have a picture to supplement his observation of the abrasion that he noticed and made specific mention of in the portion of the autopsy report that detailed his observations at the home.

    The body of this six year old female was first seen by me after I was called to an address identified as 755 - 15th street in Boulder, Colorado, on 12/26/96. I arrived at the scene approximately 8 PM on 12/26 and entered the house where the decedent's body was located at approximately 8:20PM. I initially viewed the body in the living room of the house. The decedent was laying on her back on the floor, covered by a blanket and a Colorado Avalanche sweatshirt. On removing these two items from the top of the body the decedent was found to be lying on her back with her arms extended up over her head. The head was turned to the right. A brief examination of the body disclosed a ligature around the neck and a ligature around the right wrist. Also noted was a small area of abrasion or contusion below the right ear on the lateral aspect of the right cheek. A prominent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck. After examining the body, I left the residence at approximately 8:30PM.
     
  19. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    Adding these things up, I'm thinking possibly the weapon was the golf club found in the back yard and JBR was hit in the kitchen/dining room?
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  20. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    The body could not have been moved during those 6 hours without creating another livor pattern, superimposed on the first..

    I know it is confusing, but remember just one thing- she was NOT moved or there would be evidence of it in a second livor pattern. She had only ONE- therefore she was not moved.

    AFTER the 6 or so hours, she could have been moved without a second livor pattern forming because by then it was fixed. BUT- by then rigor had started and it would have been impossible to put her in another position without breaking rigor.
    We seem to spend a lot of time on this one thing- was she moved or not. And it's been discussed a lot. But there really is a simple answer to this very confusing question. Keep in mind that BOTH rigor and livor mortis form ONLY AFTER death.
    JB was found in FULL rigor, on her back with her legs straight and arms pulled up in front of her.
    She had ONLY ONE livor pattern, which also indicates she was placed on her back in that same position within 20 minutes or so of her death and she was not moved within that first 6 hours. After that, it is still doubtful she was moved, because rigor would not have formed if she was handled.

    There is ONLY ONE OPTION for her having been moved and that was the "possibility" of JB sliding her body along the WC floor ON THE BLANKET from a deeper part of the room to a position closer to the door.

    The blanket was NOT pulled from her bed. Go back and look at the crime photos of her bed- you will see a bed with the head portion unmade, and the foot portion still neatly made. No one can pull a blanket off a bed and have the foot portion remain made. It had to have been in the basement dryer, where it was always laundered.
     
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