The bloody pillowcase

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Jan 19, 2011.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I've read and posted so much now, I have no idea what you mean. :laffbig:

    Okay, I've posted what Patsy said in the '97 interview with LE about JB sleeping in Burke's room, in an earlier post up the thread. Let me double check what she said in '98 in the BDA interview with Haney.

    Okay, I've used "Burke as a search word and nothing in the '98 interview shows up under that for JB sleeping in Burke's bed. I used "bed" earlier, but can't remember, so if someone wants to do that again, have at it. Otherwise, it will be tomorrow before I can get to it again.
     
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Good questions and info.

    There is no doubt she bled from the vaginal injuries. She also had her own blood smeared on her inner thigh, which leads me to believe that happened when her bottoms were down or off of her.

    What I was wondering is whether the blood on the pillowcase came from her head injury or from the vaginal injuries. It could have been from from earlier sexual molestation, as well. But having a pillowcase contaminated in that way seems less likely than from the head blow? Couldn't forensics tell if it was mixed with mucous vs vaginal fluids? I have no idea....

    But you can see a redish gold drop of mucous dried on her face in one of the autopsy photos.

    Thomas wrote that there was a blood-tinged drop of mucous belonging to JonBenet on her upper right (?) sleeve. Yes, the side her head was turned to; I deduced that it dropped from her face onto the shirt sleeve as she lay on her back, face turned to the right, but it could have been at some other point after the head blow, I guess.
     
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, it is frustrating. I would hope the detectives were making notes, mental ones, at least. But we'll never know what they heard, I guess.
     
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I don't think Patsy would have missed JonBenet bleeding, would she? So I have to say that I think the blood got on that pillowcase the night she was murdered, on the 25th/26th?

    John said that multi-colored sweater was Patsy's. Patsy said it was JonBenet's.

    I think I can finally picture what JonBenet wore to the White's, as Patsy and John described it and we can see her clothes laying around the room.

    Black velvet vest: on the twin bed with stuffed animals.

    Black velvet pants: on the trunk at the foot of JB's bed.

    White, long sleeve, crew neck shirt with star on front: found on body.

    Underwear: where are those she wore to the White's? BIG QUESTION MARK.

    White socks: on the bed with the vest.

    Brightly colored scarf: on bed with vest and socks.

    Black boots that zipped up front: Patsy and John described these.

    Hair tied up with colorful decoration on top.

    Coat: photographed in car by LE.
     
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I agree that it would seem Patsy would not have made up the bed on the 25th.

    But this still does not explain how that pj top got under the pillow--if it was ever there that day/night. I'm not explaining this question I have well, am I?

    There is a photo of JonBenet on Christmas morning. She is wearing pink pjs, top and bottom, which Patsy said she wore Christmas Eve and since she's wearing them in the "Christmas presents" photo, this meant JB had not wet them that night.

    That was said by Patsy to be the pink top we see in the crime scene photo of JB's bed, at the head of the bed. But the bottoms are only mentioned in that Patsy said she couldn't "find" them when she was undressing JB in bed and that's why she put the white bottoms on the child.

    So JonBenet opened her Christmas presents in the pink pjs. Then she changed out of those at some point, into play clothes...though Patsy couldn't remember what she wore that day, if I'm remembering correctly. So did JonBenet throw that pink top on the bed, or did she put it under the pillow--Patsy said that's where it would have been. Or did Patsy put it under the pillow--Patsy said that's where it would have been. If it was just tossed onto the bed by JonBenet and landed at the top of the mattress, fine...where was the pillow then? At the foot of the bed? Or did JonBenet put the pj top under the pillow herself, at the HEAD of the bed? (Seems unlikely.)

    But that's just the pj TOP. Where are the matching pj bottoms that JB took off at the same time? Why aren't they on the bed? Under the pillow? Floor? In the room? Or are they and we just don't see them because we only get the photos the Ramsey propagandists want us to see?

    Where are those pink bottoms? How did the pillow get to the foot of the bed, and when? Seems important: there was blood on the pillowcase. The child bled from the nose the night she was murdered; she was molested and bled from that abuse, as well. Since the size 12-14 Bloomies appear to me not possible to be worn by the child when she was alive and moving around on her own, where are the pair of underwear that JonBenet actually wore to the White's party? When and how did those size 12-14 Bloomies get onto JonBenet?

    LE should know the answers to these questions, even if they can't name the exact person who molested and/or strangled the child. I hope to heck they do.

    To sum up: that's TWO mystery clothing items unexplained to me: pj bottoms and underwear belonging to a molested and murdered child. I just want to know where the pink pj bottoms and actual underwear she wore to the White's ended up.

    The blood on the pillowcase, the location of the pillow at the foot of the bed, the location of the inside-out pink pj top at the head of the bed, the location of the clothes taken off of JonBenet, laid out neatly--and the clothing LE perhaps didn't find--seem important to me.

    But some of the subtle details got by me in the deluge of transcripts and books, etc., through the years. So I'll keep looking and hope I now know what to look for.
     
  6. Karen

    Karen Member

    I rhink that bed was unmade from the 23rd. Unless LHP says she put the pink PJ's under the pillow. But she does say those sheets in the crime scene photos are not the ones she put on previously. Laid out neatly..Couldn't it mean she was already dressed in her pj's when she ate the pineapple, or does it? I'm sorry, I just don' believe Patsy and John about this whole "putting a zonked JB to bed" story.

    Not wetting the bed that night doesn't discount the story that JB slept in Burkes room Christmas night. She may not have wet that bed.

    Maybe she was wearing the pink pj bottoms when she was molested and bled. That would explain why they had to disappear along with the size 6 panties, which i think she was also wearing that night.....when she was put to bed. I know she urinated in the long johns laying on her stomach outside the wine cellar but who's to say when they were put on her? This reeks of family involvement.And no I'm not saying she was changed in anticipation of a molestation. We will never know when she was changed. IMO.
     
  7. Karen

    Karen Member

    I believe it's because most believe most of what Patsy said in her interviews. I believe she lied like a rug.

    With the pillow at the other end of the bed, really? JB must have been a thrasher is all I can figure. I guess we'll never know because Patsy "wouldn't have remembered if she was a thrasher" eithor. IMO.

    Slept in that bed Christmas Eve is more of Patsys "I don't know, or I don't remember." She didn't know where her daughter slept that night? Even knowing Burkes bed didn't have the plastic sheets on it? It seems it would be a concern of hers and she would remedy that since JB was a bedwetter.
     
  8. Karen

    Karen Member

    You're pretty much the only one who doesn't. But then again, most don't believe the same as I do so maybe it's better if some do discount what I say.:eek:
    Hmm, I don't remember that hissy fit. Don't pay any attention to those. After an hour I forget all about it. Please don't be offended by that.
    "Hours passed." That's ok. You usually do always answer me eventually and I'm happy with that.
    Boy do I sound like a whiner. I don't mean to. But i'm only on here a limited amount of time and when I am I post a marathon. No wonder my posts get overlooked!
     
  9. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I just had a thought. I've always wondered why JBR's pillow was at the bottom of the bed, and the bed looked "ruffled," not slept in. After looking at the photo posted by KK, it suddenly occured to me, maybe the "ruffling" and the pillow at the bottom of the bed were part of the STAGING of the crime scene! The perp wanted it to look like JonBenet was taken from her bed after some sort of struggle - so the pillow was taken from the top of the bed (exposing the pink PJ top that had been underneath) and thrown to the bottom.

    I agree that the bed probably hadn't been made since LHP was there. I don't think Patsy was into making beds. She was a house slob from all reports, and it wouldn't have been high on her to-do list with everything else she had going on at Christmas.
     
  10. Karen

    Karen Member

    But wouldn't the white blanket be accounted for if it was staged to look like some kind of struggle as in all the covers pulled out from being tucked and that sort of thing? I like this idea and I think it needs to be explored. It's different and Lord knows we need something different to discuss!
     
  11. Elle

    Elle Member

    I wonder why Patsy Ramsey didn't leave the soiled bed for Linda to clean up(?).
     
  12. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Yea, Karen, I'm inclined to believe that also.
     
  13. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    If there is blood on that pillow, I'm inclined to think it came from the night of the murder. Could it have come from transfer? Someone cleaning JBR up and grabbed the pillow that was on the floor and tossed it on the bed? Or did someone lay it under her head in the bathroom or bedroom floor and then toss it on the bed after deciding to take her to the basement?
     
  14. Karen

    Karen Member



    Well I guess that could be possible since it stands to reason JB used her own bathroom Christmas night if she went. I wonder how much blood was there and what the possible causes could be other than a headbash. There must be at least a few. My sons lost their teeth (naturally of course) at 6 and 7 and found a little blood on their pillowcase in the morning afterwards. I think there could be many explanations but we would have to know how much blood was there. I still don't think she made it to that bed to sleep Christmas night.
     
  15. Learnin

    Learnin Member


    Wasn't there a pair of soiled underwear on the floor of JBR's bedroom? Would that have been the pair of underwear that was taken off when JBR came home from the White's

    If there was a pair of soiled underwear on the floor, and we have the velvet outfit that JBR wore to the Whites laid on the second bed and chest, then, can the following be a true scenario?

    The family came home and spent some time downstairs when the snack was fixed while Burke and John fooled around with the model....JBR messed with her new bike and other things. JBR eats some pineapple. After a few minutes, they go upstairs...Burke, at one point, said he saw JBR "walk" up the stairs. After a bit, JBR gets undressed...Patsy possibly helping...the socks, etc. are laid neatly on the second bed as if JBR might be wearing these for the trip to Michigan the next day. Patsy discovers that JBR has soiled herself....and the soiled underwear are taken off and Patsy is angered by the soiling. You can't put a kid to bed who has soiled her underwear, she has to be clean...so she is taken into the bathroom with bear feet that are moist because she has just removed her socks....she gets lint on her feet....Patsy is angry and begins cleaning her and "wipes" her hard in the process....a fight ensues and this is where JBR falls and strikes her head.
     
  16. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I tend to dismiss much of this Patsy chatter, in these interviews, because she doesn' seem to remember much like the important matter of how often JBR and Burke slept together. All parents know what beds their young children end up in the next morning and how often. So, anyway, I look at these crime scene photos and here is what I see.

    JBR undressed and her clothes were neatly placed on the second bed...socks stretched out neatly....pants at foot of bed on a chest. I believe she is going to wear these clothes to Michigan because of this.

    I look at the bed and I see a pillow at the foot of the bed and a pj top, that she wore the morning before, lying up where the pillow should be. This tells me that, on Christmas morning, JB got dressed at some point and flung the pj top up on the bed. I think the pj bottoms might be under the pillow at the bottom of the bed. This scene tells me that JBR never got to bed that night, or never got to bed in that bed.....

    What parent is not, at the least, going to throw pajamas off the bed before placing their child in bed for the night?

    And what about this bedwetting? Am I to believe that Patsy would allow JBR to be placed in bed asleep at around 9-9:30 when she is a bed wetter?????
    No way. Here you have a little girl that was no doubt drinking at the Whites from about 5 p.m. on and then she fell asleep in the car around 8 p.m. and you're not going to make her empty her bladder before going to bed?

    My grandchildren spend the night with their grandmother and me on occasion. We'll be watching cartoons or some movie on TV and they will, invariably fall to sleep at some point. I finish watching the movie or turn it to a ball game or something. Before I put them to bed, I always make them go to the bathroom because they've been eating snacks and drinking since the early hours of the evening.....

    I'm not buying it.
     
  17. Karen

    Karen Member

    ITA. I'm glad someone else agrees with me!

    ( second bold by me)Why not together? I don't think her pants look neat at all. And they're not with her vest, if that is indeed her pants on the trunk we see. Funny how most of these pictures show things not neat. Funny as in not funny. IMO.

    ( Bolded my me.)I differ from your opinion. I think they are missing like the size 6 panties I assume she was wearing that night. Of course, this is just my opinion since they've never been accounted for.

    (Bolede by me.) I can see
    JB taking off her bottoms in a different area than her top but I still don't believe she slept in that room that night.

    (Bolded by me.) Look we are most of us mothers and we know what we would do. As Patsy and John say, "Why would you think we are any different from any other parent?" IMO the evidence comes back to bite them because of that statement.

    It just occurred to me do I need to post "bolded by me" or are those who are still reading this thread follow me? I know what i mean but I don't know if others can read my posts in the order I'm posting them.
     
  18. Learnin

    Learnin Member


    Well, Karen, the socks seemed to be laid neatly stretched out side by side. This tells me that someone took the socks off and did not just thow them on the bed. Whoever took those socks off, took the trouble to lay them out straight beside one another...that took some effort.
     
  19. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    That pillow being at the wrong end of the bed has always bothered me. I sincerely doubt JonBenet slept like that, and it's obvious the pillow started out at the top of the bed, covering the pink PJ top. If the pillow wasn't moved there to suggest a struggle, then that means JBR never made it to bed that night because the pillow was in that position the whole time. It's conceivable that JBR put the pillow there while playing on her bed, etc. on Christmas day.

    There are no two ways around it. JonBenet would not have been laid on the bed, allegedly undressed and re-dressed by Patsy, and then left there for the rest of the night with her head on a half-sideways pillow at the wrong end of the bed with no covers (or a way to pull up covers if she got cold in the night)!
     
  20. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I agree. And now looking at the crime scene photo again, it really does strike me as impossible for JBR to have slept in that bed on Christmas night. That doesn't mean her parents didn't lay her on it after the initial head wound. I think they might have while they tried to figure out what to do next, and that's when she bled onto the pillowcase through her nose. Because of many factors, prior molestation, Burke's age if he were involved, etc., the panicked decision was made to try to stage a crime scene to suggest a cold-blooded intruder. That's when JBR was moved to the basement.
     
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