In which room do you think the head blow occurred?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Learnin, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. Elle

    Elle Member

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%" border="0"><tbody><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by Elle_1 [​IMG]
    Koldkase,

    Help me out here, please. Many moons ago, I remember reading Patsy wanted JonBenét to wear a red sweater top and black pants to the White's Xmas party, 1996 , to match her own outfit, and JonBenét rebelled and wore the white top with the star. At this moment I'm reading page 124-125 and Kolar states the initial reporting by Patsy of JonBenét going to bed in a red turtleneck top had changed. Kolar doesn't state what she wore, but she was found in the white top- with the star.

    There is a photo on page 125 "not in colour" of the red top on the right side of JonBenét's sink, bunched up. I wondered if Patsy had been spiteful that night. because JonBenét refused to wear it to match Patsy's outfit, Patsy may well have put it on her out of spite and all hell broke loose, and Patsy lost it! (?).

    Haven't got the patience to wait until I come across more news about this red top, but I'm not seeing it right now. Is there any more mention
    of this?

    [/i]
    </td></tr></tbody></table>
    Thank you so much, cynic. Not another cheep about the red top and Patsy changes her story and gets away with it. [​IMG]
     
  2. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    Thoughts...

    If JBR was hit in the kitchen/dining room, PR/JR may have first moved her upstairs to her bedroom and laid her on the bed with her head on her pillow at the foot of the bed while they dealt with her injury and tried to figure out what to do.

    Possibly they considered dressing her in her red sweater for some reason(?) as they began the staging process. I don't know why they would, but it might explain why Patsy had that in her head the next morning.

    I think the blanket was still in the dryer, probably downstairs, because JBR's bedding was changed at some point between the 23rd and the 26th, per LHP's statement about the sheets. JBR probably wet the bed on one of those nights and the bedding was washed. Blanket still in the dryer makes sense.

    Based on what I've read re BR's statements and demeanor, I don't believe for a minute that he did any "comforting" of JBR but that's JMO. I think the stagers wrapped her in her blanket in the basement because that's where the blanket was.
     
  3. Elle

    Elle Member

    Forgive me cynic and other posters, why is it, I can still see Patsy Ramsey in a rage throwing JonBenét head first against the edge of the bath tub or the toilet bowl rim?
    I wish we could have re-enacted this with a life size doll.
     
  4. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Very good explanation, DeeDee.

    I think it's very safe to assume that, after the ligature was tightened, JBR was on her back, in the position we've all come to know, within 20 minutes.

    I think we are safe to assume the blanket was taken from the basement dryer.
     
  5. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I think it's still a possibility, Elle. The skull depression is higher up on the head than I originally thought so, while it's possible, I think it's more probable that she was struck from behind but that's just my opinion.
     
  6. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I agree with DeeDee and Learnin.

    I've never thought the white blanket came from the bed for the very reason DeeDee stated, which I've said before myself. The bottom half of the bed COULD not have been left like it was, neatly made, if the blanket had been taken from it. LHP said Patsy frequently had the white blanket in the downstairs dryer. Most stackable units aren't built to wash big items like blankets.

    The ligature was tightened from behind while JonBenet was lying on her stomach, and her heart finally stopped it's faint beating. She was then placed within 20 minutes on her back on the white blanket in the "wine cellar." During that 20 minutes, the loose wrist ties were attached, and the lower part of the blanket was wrapped around her legs and waist. The small piece of duct tape was applied to her lips, and her head was allowed to tilt to her right right side.
     
  7. Karen

    Karen Member

    I think that if the person who is a trained LE who has seen all the evidence and read all the Grand Jury transcripts thinks the head blow happened in the breakfast room/kitchen area then I'm going to listen to him. He knows more about this case than anybody else and that statement is the only statement he's made for a certainty as far as I can tell. He avoided making statements because he wants the reader to come to their own conclusions, but he made this one. And he knows about evidence he did not divulge. So that's what I'm going to go with.
    I just have to figure out now how it fits in with all the other evidence we know about.

    I think the red turtleneck top is not a factor in the crime. If Patsy said they had a little "tiff" over her wearing it then you know it was more of a fight than what she alludes to. I can see them arguing about it and Jonbenet wadding it up and throwing it in the counter top and saying she's NOT going to wear it. I think that top is a red herring.

    Another thing is Jonbenet had an awful lot of abrasions and bruises found in the autopsy. I haven't noticed anybody making much mention of that but i think it's significant. I think I even started a thread about it around here somewhere. There were two long purple bruises on her shoulder. Where did those come from? And she had a purple bruise outside on her labia or somewhere in that area. Sexual assault injuries aside, could she have gotten kicked there? It actually sounds like she was in a fight that night and she was on the losing end. She was actually pretty beat up from what I read.
     
  8. heymom

    heymom Member

    Well, that was Steve Thomas' scenario, Elle, and many of us thought he had the most case information at the time, so it seemed reasonable. I always had my doubts about the force necessary to crack JonBenet's skull like it was - I just couldn't see how that would happen in a bathroom, with Patsy as the person doing the throwing. I also simply do not think that hole in JonBenet's skull would be caused in that scenario - that was a focused blow. A child would still have some degree of resistance to being flung around, even if caught off-guard.
     
  9. wombat

    wombat Member

    Count me in with those who believe the blanket was taken from the basement dryer. The pink nightgown was probably stuck to it by static cling and Patsy/John didn't notice it.
     
  10. Pearlsim

    Pearlsim FFJ Senior Member

    wombat

    That's exactly how I see it.
     
  11. Elle

    Elle Member

    This was the first thing I ever thought of, heymom. Patsy in a rage throwing JonBenét around. Many of us thought this. Delmar England and Steve Thomas too! I still see Patsy in a rage because of all she had to do that morning. Can't get this scene out of my head right now! When this one vanishes, the one of Burke appears with the flashlight coming up behind JonBenét sitting at the table. To see the golf club here, I have to have Burke holding the club more than halfway up the shaft with two hands. This I find awkward because of the length of the shaft! Yes! He may have his own clubs but they are not handy in the kitchen! Round and round I go!
     
  12. Elle

    Elle Member

    I believe this too, Wombat. Sincerely hope you are keeping well.
     
  13. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    I agree. This is what persuaded me that it happened there rather than in the basement. What kind of evidence might it be that would indicate this? Does anyone have any speculation?
     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks for your responses, everyone.

    As for Meyer breaking the rigor to get a photo of the bruise on her face--which lately as I've worked with it, looks like it came from a ring, with "prong" points, but that probably is just my imagination: y'all could be right. I guess what I'm wondering is if her arms were in that position and we've been misled for some other reason to think they were otherwise. The "drawing" we have came from a TV show, after all.

    But maybe breaking rigor isn't the violent action I imagine it to be. I have no personal experience there.
     
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    DeeDee, that was what I was thinking until I looked up livor mortis online. If there were only a 20 minute window after death to move the body, then that is an important factor in determining who strangled her, IMO.

    But that 20 minute window after which livor mortis starts being evidence that she wasn't moved after that? That's not the story I'm getting from forensic sites, etc. The links I provided say something else. So I'm just more confused.

    Look, I'm totally out of my depth here, I admit it. So thanks for explaining patiently, but I'm a dull student, and I apologize for that.
     
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    So something popped out of my head this morning when I woke up.

    If only it had been "Here's what happened!" [Monk]

    But it was back to "where" the head blow happened, so here goes.

    Let's say for whatever reason, one of the Ramseys hit JB with a golf club, Maglite, whatever, in the kitchen/breakfast area/living room.

    She goes down.

    If her parents were still up, if this were right after they got home, the kids eating pineapple, etc., what happened next?

    She's got a head injury that is fatal, but how do they know that?

    Did she convulse? Everyone who works with such injuries has told us there's no way to know.

    But...

    Maybe that's why someone got her pillow--to put under her head while she was still alive, a blanket to keep her warm...before she was strangled.

    Not knowing what to do...can't take her to the ER because they'll find out she's been sexually assaulted? Make her comfortable...while we think, make some calls...?

    An hour or two until she's strangled. Blood seeping into her skull and swelling of the brain. Pineapple digested during this time.

    Thoughts?
     
  17. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I think that's feasible. I tend to believe they made her comfortable with, at least, a blanket as they discussed about whether or not to call an ambulance, etc., etc.

    Didn't I just read, on a thread somewhere here, where Meyer (upon arriving at the house) stated there was no evidence of blood in the ear canals and nasal passages? I just don't think she bled from either the nose or ears (surely they would've determined that) and, if that's the case, we'd have to explain the blood on the pillow case.
     
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    There was blood on her face: a dark-tinged mucous. You can see it in photos.

    And Steve Thomas said her blood had dropped onto the upper sleeve of her top, right side, which is consistent with the drizzle down the right side of her face, turned to the right in rigor.

    Zoomama has written about this same idea of the blanket being used to "keep her warm" today, I just read on the other thread about JR's statement. Seems we are all having a confluence of ideas...so maybe we're getting somewhere.
     
  19. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    Yeah, it makes more sense that they'd bring her pillow and blanket to her at that point rather than carrying her to her room, because they'd probably be afraid to move her.

    It's really hard for me to imagine deciding not to call for an ambulance. Even with the sexual abuse I'd be so terrified for my daughter and want to save her no matter what. I wonder if it was just so obvious that she was beyond help. But how would they know? Did Doc Beuf make a house call?
     
  20. Karen

    Karen Member

    If Burke put her in the wine cellar he would have had to put a chair in front of the door to stand on it in order to flip the wooden latch so he could open it.
    Something about that fact and the absolutely insane story John Ramsey tells about the chair being in front of the train room door are tweaking my hinky meter.
    Maybe the chair was in front of or around the wine cellar door, which would be a perfect indication of who opened that door that night, and John moved it away to in front of the train room door and then got stuck in an interview trying to explain it because what he said made no sense at all.
    He may have moved it when he went down to the basement the morning of the 26th after he read and probably pegged that ransom note to Patsy in his mind, and again when some think he found Jonbenets body. He told Stewert Long he found her at about 11:00AM.

    ETA: Sorry I posted this before I read the thread and it's not with the point of discussion right now. Instead of deleting it I'll add to it and get with the program, so to speak.
    I read some of koldkases' links she posted the other day about head injuries and I think I remember reading that there is a foaming from the mouth. That could explain what that is dried up on the side of her face.
    I read it here: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=187045

    Here are some forensic pathology sources which explain the ligature and neck injuries: the first link is very readable with no graphic photos; the second is more technical and has graphic photos of various injuries and autopsy dissections which you may see while scrolling to the sections related to this case.

    http://www.corpus-delicti.com/ligature.html

    Be forewarned: the following link has extremely graphic autopsy photos of dissections, as well as damage to bodies done in ways you may not want to even think about, much less see.

    WARNING: GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS AT THIS LINK

    Look for p. 267, "Asphyxia", as this is a partial chapter--it's for book sales:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=6bW...page&q&f=false

    Also at the second link, head injuries are described in great detail beginning on p. 323 under "Head Injury." Included are types of brain injury and skull fractures.
     
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