McCann Case Still Unsolved?

Discussion in 'Madeleine McCann' started by koldkase, Feb 7, 2008.

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  1. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Personally, I believe the McCanns are innocent, and they are paying dearly for the mistake of leaving their children alone. Even Kate's mother has come out saying they shouldn't have left them, and I think everyone knows that. The McCanns have to live with that awful knowledge the rest of their lives. There can be no greater punishment. Their suffering will never end.

    I agree with Elle who suggested that someone working at the resort could have been monitoring the schedules of the parents in leaving the children alone. That's why the kidnapper could time the abduction successfully. Several nights in a row, the parents followed the same pattern, and all the kidnapper needed was 10 minutes (maximum) to take Maddie.

    It could have happened like this:

    The door to the McCann apartment is unlocked. The kidnapper enters looking for Maddie (who he already knows is in the room). He finds Maddie and puts something over her mouth to muffle her cries. He carries her out the door to a waiting car driven by an accomplice, and they're down the road before anyone sees anything. By the time the real search is started, the kidnappers and Maddie are probably in Spain, or on a boat bound for God knows where.

    I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think the McCanns will ever see Maddie again in this lifetime. They were wrong to leave their children alone, but who among us has not made mistakes we regret. Those mistakes may have not led to the disappearance of our chidren, but he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

    Yes, the McCanns should not have left Maddie and the twins, but I don't see how the continued villification of the McCanns achieves anything. They didn't kill Maddie, and they can't bring her back. They can only wait hopelessly and try to prevent the same tragedy from happening to others. I pray to God none of us will ever know the heartbreak the McCanns have experienced, or the depth of guilt that must wrack their souls.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2008
  2. Elle

    Elle Member

    I understand what you're saying here, Nana. Yes, we should all be more cautious with our children when in a foreign country; especially when the children are not in their own home bedrooms, and in a strange environment. More caution has to be taken. No doubt about that.

    I think the kidnapping of Madeleine McCann has to be a wakeup call for the Tourist Industry to emphasize the importance of not leaving children unguarded. I sincerely hope they are doing something about this, so we will never have another repetition of what happened to little Maddie at the Ocean Club. It's all very sad.

    Mark Warner should have had a Security Guard patrolling the Ocean Club. I'm sure he can afford it. Yes, he deserves to take some of the blame, Nana.
     
  3. Little

    Little Member

    I told myself I wasn't going to get back into this case again. Just goes to show you that I hardly ever listen.

    Anyway, IMO we are comparing apples to oranges when it come to what has been acceptable between two cultures and apples to apples in the case of the discrepancy of social status.

    It seems that in some countries outside our own (the US) there is not the fear of predators that we have here. If there were, then I can't imagine that the McCanns would have left their children alone. It only takes a minute, or a few seconds for that matter, for a child disappear. Here, being minutes away from them would not be acceptable behavior.

    Still, would this be treated the same way if the parents were not of the social status that the McCanns are? Let's say it's a lower income couple who went out for wings and a few beers with their friends. They were across the street at a local bar, they went back every half hour to check on their children, and one of them went missing. Would there be a million dollar fund set up for them? Would celebrities come rushing to their aid? It's not that I think the rush to help them is in any way a bad thing. IMO that was a tremendous outpouring of compassion and that's never a bad thing. However, the couple who would have gone out for a beer are truly no different than the ones who go out for a nice meal and wine. People who work at the local factory need to relax just as much as people who work as doctors. People leave their sleeping child in a car to run into a store for "just a minute". People who have very small children need to be hyper vigilant about their safety no matter what their social status. Terrible things happen no matter what a person's social status is. That's just a sad fact of life.

    Most anyone who has ever been responsible for another person's safety can refelct back on mistakes. Fortunately, most of those mistakes do not have the tragic results of this case. There's no way to know all the dangers we may have dodged. All we can do is the best we can to minimize the opportunities.

    Little
     
  4. Elle

    Elle Member

    Having a British Prime Minister as a close friend comes in handy, I guess. The same courtesy is not given to every missing child, as we all know.

    Child trafficking is all over the place these days, Little, and for tourists travelling abroad with small children, they should keep this in mind, if not, they are very foolish people.
     
  5. Little

    Little Member

    I am happy for the McCanns that they have so many influential people to help them to find Madeleine. I pray that little girl will be found and that she will be able to come back home soon.

    I'm certain that the McCann's felt that they were in a very safe place and felt comfortable with the arrangements they had made for checking in on their children. There is no indication that they, or any of the other parents there, were not loving caregivers. I can't wish anything horrible enough on the person or persons who stole that baby from her bed. It breaks my heart to think how frightened she must be and I say that in sincere hope that she's still alive.

    From all of this tragedy maybe the positive that will come out of it is that when you are not on your home turf you can not ever be relaxed about who might be lurking near by.

    Little
     
  6. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Well said, Little. Your post offers a lot of food for thought.
     
  7. Nana

    Nana Member

    Cherokee, your scenario is plausible. I don't know what was the motivation of the perpetrator. If it was a kidnap for money, they could have chosen one of the twins, but maybe it had to do with a pedophilia. The twins were lucky that night. Maddie wasn't.

    Everyone of us have our sins and nobody is out there to cast stones to the parents. We all have made mistakes all along our lives but we are completely responsible for them, for the good and for the bad. And here is the point: the lack of responsibility of the parents led to one of their children's disappearance. It's not like "well, we've made a mistake, our daughter disappeared and now we must go on with our lives and forget about her." They can't make this whole sad situation disappear, as if Maddie never existed in the first place, so they will be forever charged. I don't know if they killed her or not, but they were the ones responsible for her, so I think it's fair to be suspicious of them.

    Elle, as far as the Ocean Club goes, it's weird they didn't comment about Maddie. I don't remember reading anything official from them. It's not right for a stranger to be able to enter the resort without identification. The security there should have locked the entire place long before the PJ was called. OTOH, they have the day care center working until late at night and the parents could have paid for a baby-sitter. Were they naive as they say? Ok, but stand the racket then.

    Little, your metaphor is right. It's nice to discuss things being from different countries, we learn a lot by doing so. FFJ is great for allowing this.

    I don't know the crime rate to compare Brazil to other countries. I can only speak for myself. My oldest son is 25 years old. When I got pregnant, I chose to stop everything I was doing to become a mother. It was not until my youngest (who is 23 now) went to school at age 7, that I went back to my career. It was my option, I'm the one to blame for everything good and bad that happened to them. Back then we didn't hear a lot about pedophiles, although they always existed. Even though, one of my main concerns was about kidnapping. I was terrified about it. Don't ask me why, I think it's a mother's instinct. Nowadays, I can only imagine how I'll feel when I have grandchildren. Better safe than sorry.

    You comments about social status are spot on. I read about a case once where the parents went to a bar in the corner and the apartment they left the children in caught fire and one of them died. I don't remember the details, but both parents were sentenced to prison. Nobody is dumb to think the social status doesn't matter.

    Right now we have a very sad case here. A beautiful girl named Isabela Nardoni was found near death on the grass of a high class condominium last March. She was 5 years old and died before reach the hospital. All the evidence pointed to her stepmother as being the one who attempted to strangle her and her father being the one who thrown her away from a 6th floor window to build the "intruder" theory. It become a high profile case, the news channels were all over it 24/7. After a long battle between the police and the couple's lawyers, they are in prison awaiting trial. As soon as the matter disappears from the news, they will walk away. How about the other hundreds of children who die "accidentally" at their homes every day? Children are abused and killed in many ways, everyday, and we need more responsible parenting. To love your children may not be enough. You must be responsible for them.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2008
  8. Elle

    Elle Member

    Yes, it is rather strange the Ocean Club hasn't commented on this tragic case, Nana. I think out of respect for little Madeleine McCann having gone missing on their premises, the least they could have done was make some statement about being sorry it happened at their Club and hope the little girl would be returned safely.

    The Ocean Club could also have stressed the importance of not leaving a child unguarded and encouraged parents to use the child care facilities which are available on the premises. This is the annoying factor for me, that these Services were readily available and not used by the McCanns.
     
  9. Little

    Little Member

    It seems this is one of those case where media attention is both a blessing and a curse. All the questions that people had, IMO, were completely legitimate questions. Through the media, and the McCanns, it became a very public case. It was on TV daily. They were on TV and precious little Madelein's picture was one of the most recognizable world-wide.

    You can't control what people think or the questions they have. If you ask the public for help, the public has every right to ask questions of their own. Asking a question does not mean that you are attacking the parents, you are just trying to get a handle on what happened.

    I don't draw a comparison between the Ramseys and the McCanns because I don't think the McCanns directly harmed Madeleine, however, much of their story does mirror the other. Initially I didn't think the Ramseys harmed JonBenet. After many questions that opinion changed.

    The McCanns made a horrible, irreversible mistake leaving their children alone. I realize that this could happen even when a parent is vigilant, but the McCann's greatly increased the odds by their own actions that fateful night. IMO that's undeniable. In a perfect world a person would never have to worry about it. It's not a perfect world, parents do harm their own children, kidnappers do take children, and sometimes it takes a while to know what happened.

    Maybe if they had admitted that right up front there wouldn't have been as much suspicion surrounding them, but that's not how they went about it.

    I still hope and pray that Madeleine is safe and will be returned safely to her family. I would never wish what the McCanns are going through on anyone. It has to be a never ending nightmare.

    Little
     
  10. Nana

    Nana Member

    The Ocean Club position (or lack of it) has always intrigued me, Elle. Food for thought.

    You're right, Little, this isn't a perfect world and people are not perfect. We are here to learn, every day brings a new lesson. You got what I was trying to say. I'm far from being a model mom but I was very conscious about my role when my kids were so helpless and dependant on me. It could have happened to me and I'm thankful it didn't. Now it's easier, I can share the blame with my daughters in law... (Just kidding!)

    This case breaks my heart. I feel sorry for Maddie. In any scenario you pick she's the one who paid the highest price.
     
  11. Little

    Little Member

    I'm no model mom either Nana. I have a lot to be thankful for too.

    Little
     
  12. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    The same goes for me, Nana and Little.
     
  13. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    The McCanns seem to blame themselves entirely for leaving their small children unattended, saying it will haunt them forever not having been there to protect Maddie.

    In leaving three small children behind alone without seeing and hearing range, they opened the door wide for such a tragedy to happen. If there was an intruder at all, that is. I'm a fence sitter in that case and recently stopped posting about it because of all the contradictory and confusing info which only muddied the waters instead of clearing them. But maybe it would be worth starting over right from square one?

    Like I said, I'm a fence sitter. Maybe doing detailed case research will help me to come down on one side of the fence. But with the many things that went wrong in the investigation, this is going to be quite difficult (if not impossible), but it is worth a try.
    Poor Maddie, how could she have vanished without a trace. This is so heartbreaking. But when we search for the truth in criminal cases, we are all victim's advocates, so to speak. The victims can't speak for themselves anymore, but we can do it for them in our quest for the truth.

    As always in criminal cases, the time line is crucial.

    - Does there exist any reliable source for when exactly Maddie was last seen alive in public?

    - when exactly did her mother report her missing ?

    Whether it was an intruder or the parents, what happened to Maddie had to have occurred within this time frame.

    In trying to establish a time line with the 'help' of eye-witness accounts, one already runs into difficulties in this case. For a party of nine people having consumed quite a bit of alcohol at the tapas bar are hardly likely to remember reliably what they did when.

    Another question: have the results of the forensic tests already have made public by an official source?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2008
  14. Little

    Little Member

    I agree rashomon. There are so darned many conflicting reports that, to me at least, it's not possible to rely on information from any one given source.

    I have a very dear friend whose beat is police/courts (for a very respected news agency). He asked me what I thought about this case right after the story broke. I told him I had no idea but felt that there were only a few possible scenarios, and of course, as with all cases, there are sub-scenarios for each.

    I wish we had a good, reliable timeline rashomon. There again, who would be the most trusted without the shadow of self preservation hanging over them?

    I just wish little Madeleine would show up.

    Little
     
  15. Elle

    Elle Member

  16. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Thanks Elle.
    Irreparable mistake on the part of the investigators to allow the apartment to be rented so fast again.
    This reminds me of what Dr. Lee said when he inspected the Ramsey home: "Rice already cooked. Crime scene gone." :)
    What could have led the investigators back in July 2007 to believe she might be dead (see quote above)?

    I'd also be very interested in the time line from the moment Maddie was last seen alive until her mother reported her missing. For the crime (whatever it was - kidnapping by an intruder or homicide involving the parents) had to have occurred within that time frame.
     
  17. Nana

    Nana Member

    Some pages to "dig":

    From 2007, Sept, 12

    Madeleine McCann: Confusion over last hours:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562817/Madeleine-McCann-Confusion-over-last-hours.html


    From 2007, Sept, 26

    Madeleine: What we know

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6984836.stm#link
    ...
    "The manager of the Mark Warner resort in Portugal, John Hill, said about 60 staff and guests at the complex searched until daybreak for the little girl, while police notified border police, Spanish police and airports."
    ...

    From 2007, Oct, 30

    McCanns used fund for mortgage

    http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/law_order/mccanns+used+fund+for+mortgage/978647


    What really happened the night little Madeleine McCann vanished? (This story originally aired Dateline NBC on March 2, 2008.)

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23436596/
    ...
    Richard Gaisford is the chief correspondent for one of Britain’s morning news programs. He spent weeks last summer reporting from the Portuguese village.

    Richard Gaisford: "It's a very warm welcoming friendly place. And it was a place the McCanns knew well. They'd been to the resort before. The main attraction for the young parents was the resort's "award-winning" childcare."
    ...

    Interactive: McCann timeline

    http://www.channel4.com/news/articl...line/959847?intcmp=news_rhc_mccanninteractive


    Madeleine McCann: the key questions

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2422967.ece


    From 2008, May, 05

    McCanns urged to visit Portugal for reconstruction of fateful night

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3872865.ece

    ..."The McCanns have said that they want to see the police reports so their private detectives can carry out their own investigation"
    ...

    How is it so difficult to understand that the police can't give the files to suspects? Why they need the police files if they have their own PI? Forget about the PJ, catch the perpetrator and clear yourselves once and for all.


    http://www.truthformadeleine.com/index.htm


    From 2008, May, 15: news about the inquiry

    http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/05/ultimatum-to-mccanns.html


    I'm a fence sitter when it comes to the couple being directly guilty of Maddie's disappearance. But they should have known better. Let the children alone for nights in a row? They were just babies, for God's sake! IMO they are guilty of neglect.

    In cases like this, there's rumors, leaks, innuendos, but the parties involved have to deal with all of it. Look at others parents of missing children: all of them are accused, their lives are torn apart and they go through hell. It's basic investigation procedure. In Maddie's case, her parents were made arguidos four months after the police had searched for the intruder. Yet they felt insulted. It's a sin to think they are capable of harming their child. Why?

    There's no clear information, and we must separate the wheat from the chaff using common sense. The problem I see is until the police files are released (it can happen next August) we can't leave the fence. All we can do is to keep asking questions and there's a lot of them that need to be answered.

    For instance, I'd like to know the timeline of that day until Maddie's disappearance. All you can find is the account of the Tapas9. When was Maddie last seen and by whom besides her family?

    What about that two sketches (the eggman) from Jane Tanner's description? That is insulting.

    Why the PJ had to go to England to "observe" the questioning of the Tapas friends by local police? The fact happened in Portugal, a sovereign country. That is insulting too.

    What exactly are the parents doing to find her? How is the fund being used? Have they hired another PI?

    Little, think about it from other perspective: the PJ files can be more trusted, not as gospel though, for can you imagine the wrath they brought to themselves from the British people and media by turning the couple suspects? It was easier for them just to "frame" another person (as the parents claim they were framed) or simply let it all fade.

    I hope people don't forget about Maddie. She needs to be found, she deserves the search for the truth of what happened to her and every effort to find her is not worthless.
     
  18. Nana

    Nana Member


    Dear Elle, always ready to help. Thanks!

    This is intriguing. How come a child vanishes like that? At first, I really believed she would be found or the kidnapper (s) would call for ransom or in the worst case scenario, her body would appear. After more than a year, no clues about her, alive or dead. Unfortunately, she's not the only one.

    Rashie, many mistakes were made by everyone involved in this investigation, and I exclude no one. After Katie reported her daughter missing, the apartment was full of friends coming and going. The twins were moved to another location and were asleep throughout the commotion. It's unusual, to say the least.

    I think the investigators changed their focus after some lab results. The forensic tests were made by Portuguese and British labs and they were very slowly handed to the police.

    Another question: how is it possible that nobody besides the parents' friends saw Mr. Murat that night at the club? The staff knew him. Keep in mind it was not late at night. I'd be suspicious of him if other people claimed he was there. Even in a kidnap scenario, I don't think he's involved, or he would be in jail. For now, I think he is a bus victim.
     
  19. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Thanks Nana for the helpful links.

    Yes it is unusual. Makes you wonder. Although (if I'm informed correctly) the McCanns later had tests performed on the twins which allegedly showed that they were "never given sedatives" - would traces of sedatives still show up in a person's blood weeks after their ingestion was stopped?
    Does anyone know when those tests on the twins were performed? For it it was weeks later and not all sedatives leave traces, such tests would not mean anything.

    Another question: Where did Jane Tanner (?) say she saw the man carrying a child in a blanket? Was this right in front of the entrace door to the McCann residence? For if yes, what kidnapper woud be so bold as to carry his victim around where he could be seen so easily?
    Good point about no one besides the tapas party people claiming to have seen Murat.
    Does Murat have 'arguido' status also?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2008
  20. rashomon

    rashomon Member

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