Three critical questions

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Apparently a pirate can't even have a teensy little pout around here... :pout: ...without Cherokee coming to get her....[​IMG]

    Your "orphan" post was very touching, Learnin. Thank you. Clearly I'm overdue for my vacation.

    And I think this is a good idea you have.

    I was looking at Karen's thread about all the abrasions on the body: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10141

    Along with your thoughts about the dirt/lint on the feet, I thought "Bonita's" documentation of the autopsy might have a few clues as to where the child's body had been that night:

    [From the Bonita Papers--"Autopsy"]

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4502

    I hope y'all have some ideas about this, because frankly, I'm just out of energy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks, Pearlsim. This is why I try to go back to the evidence as best we know it when my conjectures just start confusing me.

    Yes, I have no doubt that the grand jury got info we could really use in analyzing this case. But for the same reasons the Ramseys were so well protected by the DAs in Boulder, we'll never know.

    I don't know how those people sleep at night. So many seem to think this is just some game.
     
  3. Pearlsim

    Pearlsim FFJ Senior Member

    Bob

    Given what we know about John, I can't see him letting Patsy handle the ransom note without checking it out to see what she wrote. If they were both in this up to their eyeballs, how would he be able to trust that Patsy wouldn't have slyly left a big clue that LE should look at John? I see John as too calculated to leave something as critical as the ransom note to Patsy, without reading what she came up with.

    Could he have not known anything that went on until the 5 am scream? That would be a bigger possibility to me than him letting her write the ransom novel and not checking it out.

    Could he have let her write the note, read it over, and on some level realized it was going to point right back to Patsy? I believe so. (And then, just in case, LE didn't get to seeing Patsy's handiwork quickly enough, why not hand over the actual ransom note pad!)
     
  4. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    It's hard to say, Pearls. Linda Arndt said JR's mood changed radically after she "lost track of him" around 10:30 am. It is possible he got suspicious when he read the note and found JBR during that trip to the basement. It is also possible that his agitated state came from the fact that hour after hour went by and the cops just weren't discovering the body. That must have made the minutes fly by like hours!

    On the other hand, JR was the one who shooed the police away from Burke earlier.
     
  5. Elle

    Elle Member


    I'm just hoping I end up thinking the same as Chief Skolar, Thor! One thing for sure, Patsy and John Ramsey were intelligent people, BUT, they were so traumatized with the death of JonBenét they were not in full control of their faculties that fateful night.

    Writing the Ramsey note was the first mistake Patsy made. I also think she forgot about the first attempt she left in her writing pad. Who in their right mind would have left the first attempt in their own pad? It had Patsy Ramsey written all over it; she couldn't do anything in small doses. It had to be spectacular; even when tragedy hit her, although her mind was being overworked by panic. One would have thought John Ramsey could have come up with a more believable plan. To crown it all, John Ramsey hands her pad over to the cops with the first attempt!! Unbelievable!

    Both Patsy and John Ramsey were very intelligent people, but in times of stress, even the most brilliant minds can screw up!
     
  6. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Maybe, but Pam and Nedra spoke freely with detectives without a lawyer present. With John's side, however, his ex wouldn't do a thing without an attorney...why?
     
  7. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    Well, good question BobC. I'm leaning towards the head blow for sure. I don't think he constructed the neck contraption. All I know is I truly believe he is behind what started this mess. It's possible both parents were involved in the strangulation. They may have thought she was dead already, who knows? I just think Burke was the catalyst.
     
  8. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Thanks, koldkase. You know, I've never read through the Bonita papers. Why, I don't know as they seem to be more detailed than most things I've read.

    I'm going to do what I suggested in an earlier post and start a new thread on one topic. Hope you don't mind me stealing your question.
     
  9. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    I agree with you Elle. These were no dummies here. And can you imagine (if Burked really started this thing) coming upon that scene? My mind would be scrambled eggs.
     
  10. Pearlsim

    Pearlsim FFJ Senior Member

    Let's see - Fleet was the one who took Burke to his home on the morning of the Kidnap Party at the Ramsey's - which meant he had a period of time when he was all alone with the boy. Maybe John was real anxious to find out just what Fleet learned from Burke in those crucial moments when they were alone together.
     
  11. heymom

    heymom Member

    They made all the WRONG decisions though. The first thing any normal person would have done (unless they somehow had an idea something might happen) is to call 911. Everything else would have been sorted out later on. But that family had secrets, so it had to be covered up. Maybe one of the parents wasn't aware of the sexual abuse, but one certainly was, and maybe both were. So there was no thought of calling for help after JonBenet had been struck. And of course, if Burke did it, they were thinking that they would lose both of their children in one horrible night. So, they decided to "make believe" and keep the one child they had instead of telling the truth. They took a big risk, though. What if Burke had done the same thing to another child?
     
  12. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I agree 100% with you, Thor. It's what makes sense given the evidence we know.

    I believe, in a fit of anger, Burke hit JonBenet from behind with a golf club, probably because that weapon was handy to where they were located at the time of head blow.

    Patsy and John did the staging with Patsy writing the ransom note. It's hard for me to see Patsy pulling the ligature tight on JonBenet's neck, but I can see John (the "Iceman" as Alex Hunter called him) doing it. As I said before, maybe Patsy constructed the ligature, but then handed it to John, saying she couldn't do it.

    I seriously don't know why Patsy would have done ALL the staging by herself if she were covering for Burke. There would have been no reason for her to keep John in the dark. I believe she and John were both involved with the staging of JonBenet's body in the basement, and Patsy was given the job of writing the ransom note.

    I believe the reason John got antsy as the morning of December 26th wore on was that things weren't working according to plan. The Boulder PD hadn't found JonBenet's body, and the Ramseys wanted OUT of that house and on a plane to Atlanta. The longer they stayed in the house, the more likely someone would catch on to the cover-up and would separate John and Patsy and question them. They'd already been able to get Burke out of the house so he couldn't be questioned or turn over his clothes, but John and Patsy still had to make their getaway.

    The only thing I've ever known (and what got me into this case many years ago) was that Patsy wrote the ransom note. Knowing that, I knew there was no intruder, but I didn't have it set in my mind who did what in the JonBenet's death. I was never sold on PDI or BDI, but I seriously doubted JDI because Patsy would have only written the ransom note for herself or Burke.

    Because I didn't know if the original head blow came from Patsy or Burke, I didn't know who did what with the staging except for the ransom note. My belief was that Burke did very little, if any, of the staging. So, if it was BDI (as in he struck the initial head blow) then Patsy and John would have done the staging. If it was PDI, then I could see Patsy doing the staging by herself WITHOUT letting John know what happened, and he figured it out the morning of the 26th.

    Now that Kolar has given us more evidence in his book, some of the missing pieces of the puzzle, I believe we have a coherent theory of the crime and cover-up. If Burke was the one who struck the initial head blow, then everything else falls into place. Patsy AND John were both in on the cover-up because there is no reason for Patsy NOT to get John to help, especially as she would have been distraught at thinking JonBenet was already dead. The approximate 90-minute gap of time from the head blow to the ligature strangulation was the time Patsy and John mourned what happened to JonBenet but also planned how they were going to save Burke and their family. They must have felt they had to pull themselves together for one chance to do that; they could give in to their grief later.

    Burke was sent to his room and told to stay there until one of them came to get him. His appearance during Patsy's 911 phone call upset John because it was not part of the plan, and John was afraid the operator would hear Burke's voice. Patsy was afraid of that, too, and that's why she hung up on the 911 operator so quickly when Burke started talking and John answered him. Their plan included the story of Burke sleeping all night and not being awakened until his father went to get him. If his voice was heard by the 911 operator, that part of the plan was in jeopardy.

    BDI (as in he caused the initial head injury) and P&JDCU (Patsy & John doing the cover-up), with PWRN (Patsy writing the ransom note) all fits with what we know. It also makes sense why the Ramseys stayed together all those years and why they sued anyone at the mention of Burke's name. They never sued Andrew Hodges or anyone else who wrote books saying Patsy did it EXCEPT for Steve Thomas who blew the whistle on the corruption in Boulder and how the Ramseys were given a pass by DA Alex Hunter. The Ramseys hated him for daring to expose why they weren't arrested, as well as the details behind their non-cooperation with the investigation.

    One more thing. Covering up for, and protecting, Burke is what John and Patsy used as a rationale for all the people they've thrown under the bus in the last 15 1/2 years. The Ramseys were trying to save their child, so in their warped and self-righteous minds, the end justified the means. As the farce went on, John and Patsy had to keep up the pretense, and they had to rely on the ridiculous fallacy that JonBenet was meant to die because "she had fulfilled her time on earth" (as they stated in their Hawaii interview). This was the answer to "why" it happened, as John famously asked less than a week after JonBenet's death (after saying they weren't angry with JonBenet's killer). John and Patsy decided they couldn't ever blame Burke for JonBenet's death since it was "an accident," so the "why" was only known to God, and it was up to them to salvage what they could, even if it meant destroying the lives of other innocent people.

    Some people will do anything for their children; even live the most horrendous and twisted lie. And John is still living it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2012
  13. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    I agree especially with this Chero, you say:

    "I believe the reason John got antsy as the morning of December 26th wore on was that things weren't working according to plan. The Boulder PD hadn't found JonBenet's body, and the Ramseys wanted OUT of that house and on a plane to Atlanta. The longer they stayed in the house, the more likely someone would catch on to the cover-up and would separate John and Patsy and question them. They'd already been able to get Burke out of the house so he couldn't be questioned or turn over his clothes, but John and Patsy still had to make their getaway."

    I still think that another reason he was antsy was the body would start to smell and it sure as heck didn't seem anyone would find that body any time soon. They had her hidden too well. So when Arndt gave him the out to go check on things that might be out of place (to break the tension) at 1:05 p.m., he saw that as his chance to "find" her. I really believe that.
     
  14. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I do, too.

    John didn't find JonBenet's body at 1 p.m., he made a bee-line for it.
     
  15. Karen

    Karen Member

    Awesome post and I agree with all of it! The only 2 cents I will add is I think John was in on it from the beginning. I don't think he would have said "This has to be an inside job", if it weren't already preplanned to implicate LHP. I don't think he would have said that if he had just figured it out that very morning. It was part of the plan, IMO.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2012
  16. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    I'm pretty much with you, Thor--but what the hell could have happened to make him do that?
     
  17. heymom

    heymom Member

    In answer to my earlier post - as to Patsy and John risking that Burke would commit another of these horrible incidents - I'm thinking that maybe they'd already spoken to psychiatrists about it. Maybe they'd been told that kids who do things like this can be cured, can be treated, and that's why they stood behind Burke even though he had just, for all intents and purposes, killed his little sister. Was he in therapy BEFORE that night?

    I just can't see a parent, having found that their older son had just slammed their daughter over the head with a golf club, concocting this huge cover-up, especially if he was also the one molesting her. John called the intruder a "monster" and that is the term that comes to mind, for a 9 year old boy who molests and then assaults his little sister. Why would they risk having this "monster" loose within their family and the larger society?

    I know that it would be horrible, and to put a kid that young into some kind of facility would likely make things worse, so maybe I'd have done the same thing. It's just so hard to imagine the horror of that night. It almost gives me pity for John and Patsy.
     
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Remember these three questions?

    Something popped into my head this morning about one of them which continues to puzzle us to this day: what happened between the time of the head blow and the strangulation?

    For the purpose of this discussion, I postulated the theory that it was approx. 90 minutes between the head blow and strangulation. Kolar's book, as well as other expert opinions we've seen through the years, was my source for this timeline.

    So this morning I was pondering something or other about this case involving the lawyers and Hunter and those darn cell phone records...and into my consciousness slipped these thoughts: they certainly are speculative, but may be interesting to consider.

    1. The child's horrific scream heard by the neighbor was from JonBenet, emitted in the seconds after her skull was cracked open and before she collapsed into a coma.

    2. Calls were then made on the cell phone (later said by the Ramseys to have been lost) to perhaps Dr. Beuf, then to a lawyer, possibly Bynum.

    3. Perhaps that lawyer then made some calls, maybe even to Hunter. Calls would have been exchanged back and forth. Finally the Ramseys would have been given "advice" by their lawyer.

    4. Then they proceeded to construct ideas to stage the crime scene as if an intruder had done this. Perhaps they were expecting JonBenet to be dead by that time, or maybe believed she was if her pupils were fixed, at least technically thinking she was brain dead, even if still breathing.

    5. And then one or both used the paintbrush and ligature on her to stage the body to appear that an intruder had done this, because otherwise they'd have to explain the prior molestation, as well as who bludgeoned her.

    That could have been what happened in that time period between the head blow and the strangulation.

    Just some ideas, which I'm not saying are what happened.

    But it would explain the DA obstructing the BPD from getting the phone records and why Patsy told that long, rambling story about JR's "lost" cell phone, which I do not believe for ONE SECOND had any truth to it AT ALL.

    This would also explain the delay from the head blow to the strangulation.

    Or it's just my fervid imagination trying to make sense of the diabolical events of that night.
     
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