Three critical questions

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    You may be on to something here, kk, with this "what did you find" thoughts.
    If BR nailed her and comforted her with a blanket, etc., and went off to bed, it would explain his question and John's answer. "Well, what did you find?" "We're not speaking to you!" Sure would love to hear that enhanced Aerospace tape.

    I think JB was hit in some room where there wasn't carpet. I can't let go of this lint and dust being on JBR's feet. I believe this is one reason ST thinks she was injured in the bathroom during a bed wetting incident. He mentions this lint and dust in his book...there's a reason I think. Have you ever walked across a dirty wood or kitchen floor and step on some cookie crumbs or residue? Dust will generally stick to your feet but I wouldn't think so much when you're standing on carpet unless that basement carpet was really dirty.

    At any rate, I need some help here. JBR was photographed, on Christmas morning, in longjohns without any socks..standing with bare feet. Now.
    We are told that JBR was cleaned and redressed after death. If longjohns were removed (and they had to be if new underpants were placed on), then, wouldn't the removing and replacing of longjohns on JBR have removed the dust and lint from the bottoms of her feet? The longjohns have a small leg opening which fits tight around the ankle..If you remove these longjohns, then, it would rub tightly against the soles of her feet, no? Same goes for putting longjohns on.

    This makes me wonder. Was JBR dressed for bed with pullups on, large panties on over the pullups and then longjohns on over these items???? If she was molested and bled, maybe she bled onto the pullups, these were torn off and flushed and the large panties placed back without having to remove the longjohns?

    Can anyone correct me if I have the evidence wrong?
     
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, I completely agree with that.

    People argue and theorize all kinds of things about the ligature around the neck; I personally think it was as straightforward as it looks. It was tied with a slipknot, which Kolar has confirmed, and when pulled it rolled up the neck, rolling the necklace into the cord as it tightened. The purple bruise on the left is from that--I think someone called it "blood pooling." We have autopsy photos of other strangulation victims who had very similar bruising in the same spot on the neck.

    I don't know what to make of the "petechial hemorrhages" on the neck, though; some people are convinced there are "fingernail" gouges on the neck from JonBenet, including Chief Kolar. That did surprise me when he wrote that, because I always thought that was another Lou Smit fabrication. The metal necklace, with the cross, caused some gouges, I think--you can even see they are not "fingernail" arcs, but just irregular gouges. At least, that's been my interpretation. So I have to wonder if Kolar got the "fingernail marks" from Smit or from medical reports based on the autopsy?

    It's very important, after all. If those are fingernail gouges, then the cord was applied BEFORE the head blow.

    Very important.

    I'm just not sold yet, because so much misinformation about that ligature and its function has been floated through the last 15 years.

    I want the dead certain, no guesses or speculation, medical determination: were there marks on her neck where she tried to get the ligature off, or not?

    I think this should have been easy to determine, as well: did she have her own flesh under her fingernails, where she'd scratched her neck that night?

    VERY IMPORTANT.
     
  3. Elle

    Elle Member

    I'm thinking there's a long gap between Christmas morning, Learnin until JonBenét was back into her jammies. JonBenét was dressed for playing throughout Christmas day, until redressed again to attend the White's party. That lint would have been long gone by then with all the playing and walking around on Christmas day wearing her socks and shoes.
     
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    This is an interesting thought.

    That gown in the cellar room is a problem, though; it could be nothing but a red herring, of course. Some think it just clung to the blanket when that was retrieved. Some think she might have worn it and it got stained with her blood, so it was put in the basement with the blanket to keep it with the rest of the crime scene. Some think it was put with her because it was her "favorite," according to Aunt Polly, though Patsy claimed to have no idea about that, couldn't even recognize it. But Patsy's DNA (and Burke's) was on it, so my theory holds there: that when Patsy denied something obvious, she was lying for a reason.

    But now I'm looking at John's statement, attributed to him by the pastor when John brought the body up, and it reads another way: “I don’t think he meant to kill her, because she was wrapped in a blanket,” or that “she was warm, she was wrapped in a blanket.”

    Now I'm thinking it sounds like JR attempting to explain that she was wrapped in the blanket in the cellar room. Since JR "found" her, he left behind the blanket when he brought her up. No one but he and Fleet White had seen the blanket at that point.

    So had John been a stager in the cellar room and, having to "find" her since the search by LE or the friends had been called off at the home hours before, as the "kidnapping" note had worked TOO well by that point, he then felt compelled in his panic to explain the staging others couldn't see?

    But does he tip his hand in his extemporaneous attempt to explain what he could not possibly understand at that point, if he'd truly just found his child's body? "HE" didn't mean to kill her? How would JR have any idea AT ALL what the killer/intruder meant, with his child's stiff body in his hands, having "just" found her?

    But I've strayed from your topic, Learnin, sorry. I do that. :blush:

    I wish we had a copy of that report of the lint and dirt on the feet. You're right, it might tell us she was walking in the cellar room, at least since her last bath--whenever that might have been.

    I've been wondering if they found lint and/or dirt on the pillowcase from the basement carpet or cellar room, either.

    I've also been thinking if LE did test these items and they do know that pillow had been removed from the bed and later replaced, with JB's blood on it, then they may know exactly to which room it was taken.

    In fact, it has occurred to me that someone MAY have known for a very long time who the Ramseys called that night and that the DA was helping them.

    Think about it: someone in the BDA's Office prosecuted the James Rapp, illegal gathering of information case. That's where the Ramseys' credit card and phone records were collected illegally, perhaps before they were mysteriously rendered "blank" for the month of Dec. Someone investigated that, as well. So they saw those records, for the Rapp case.

    Okay, going off on another tangent. Need more coffee....:coffeeup:
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh, one thing I did think about, though: wouldn't flushing a large diaper down the toilet stop up the whole system? Even a small diaper would, I'm thinking.

    And again, we still have heard no word about those pink pj bottoms that she had on Christmas morning.

    But since the top to those is on the bed, at exactly where the pillow should have been, and Patsy said they put the pj's under the pillow, it would appear the bottoms either were not put under the pillow with the top, or why didn't Patsy put those on JB? She said she dressed her in the dark and described some difficulty in finding the longjohns, in fact.

    So did JB get the pink bottoms dirty Christmas morning...or were they in the floor, where she left them when she got dressed to play for the day?

    And why would Burke's pj's have been in the floor in that room? Only one bed was slept in that night--though we only have the Ramsey's word for much of anything, and that's sure to be deliberately misleading.

    They were consummate liars, weren't they? Ha ha. If their lips were moving, they were lying.

    I guess I'm pondering if the gown might have been put on her that night, Learnin. That would be easy to remove without lint/dirt coming off. Then the longjohns being put on over her feet maybe wouldn't have necessarily wiped all that off of them.

    Does anyone specifically remember if the Bloomies did or did not have urine on them? For some reason, I have been thinking they didn't, but now I'm just not sure.

    If they didn't, then they would have been put on after the strangulation. But the longjohns were put on before, because they have urine stains on the front, which is consistent that she died on her stomach.

    But...what if she wet those first? In her bed?

    Oh, cheeeeeeerist on a cracker. I'm sorry, Learnin. I keep wandering around trying to put anything together that makes sense, and honestly, I'm throwing up my hands.

    The conditions this child lived in were horrific, and I think it's clear how she ended up dead: the cancer in that family grew until it killed her.
     
  6. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

    I know that one of the Ramseys first statements said that Burke would not go to bed Christmas night and was in his Train Room. Will look it up when I can unless someone else has that handy!

    Love to All ~
    Ratty
     
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    This was in the 1997 interview with Thomas and Trujillo; they were asking about a pageant entry form Patsy had filled out. (This particular transcript has a lot of errors in it. I'm assuming the sound quality was difficult and/or possibly the transcriber wasn't that good?)

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5197

    So is there an actual source that Burke put his sister on the end of a leash of some kind when playing? Or did that just get pondered about and confused with this?
     
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Hey, Rat! Good to see you. :wave:
     
  9. Learnin

    Learnin Member


    1. I think pull-ups, kk, are just manufactured with thin sheet of plastic and absorbent paper material...not very hard to rip apart. At least the ones, we use on our incontinent patients in the hospital, are easily torn apart and would flush easily enough.

    2. Good point about whether or not the bloomies were urine stained. I have to see if I can find out today. If someone knows off the top of their head, then, please let me know. Obviously, if the panties were free of urine, then, my theory about the pull-ups, etc., would be wrong.

    3. But. If the longjohns were urine stained at the time the ligature was tightened, and the panties were not, and she was violated before the ligature was tightened, what does that tell us? If she was violated with the paintbrush stick, she had to be violated after the head blow and before the ligature was tightened which means on the floor at the entrance to the wine cellar. We know she bled when violated as blood was wiped off her thigh and crotch. Why did this not get on the carpet?
     
  10. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    The only reason I mentioned Christmas morning, Elle, is to point out that JBR, obviously, didn't wear socks to bed and would run around the house without socks on. Since she had dust on the soles of her feet, at autopsy, it's safe to assume she was dressed in sleeping attire that fateful night before first blow was struck. In other words, it indicates to me that JBR didn't come in the house, eat some pineapple, and get struck before going up stairs and getting dressed for bed.
     
  11. Pearlsim

    Pearlsim FFJ Senior Member

    Pull-ups

    I used pull-ups for my two youngest children when they were small. My son is a year younger than JonBenet so we're talking the same general time frame regarding how the pull-ups were made. That said, I can categorically state that those pull-ups would not have been able to be flushed down a toilet without stopping it up.
     
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh, that's an interesting observation, Learnin. I'm going to think about that.

    I agree, Elle. I don't think loose lint/dirt from earlier in the day would have survived on her feet unless, as Learnin is thinking, she walked around barefoot that night before she was bludgeoned.
     
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I guess I never tried to pull paper diapers apart to flush, Learnin, so I'm no help on this point.

    I'm completely stymied on whether the Bloomies had urine on them. It wouldn't seem so, because then the blood droplets would have diluted and not appeared defined enough for Dr. Meyer to try to match them to any on the genitals--which he couldn't, I think Thomas wrote?

    It just seems I've always thought there was no urine on those, and I don't remember any discussion about it in so long, I don't remember any discussion about it. Seems we'd have spotted that long ago, right?

    See, there still are so many elements of this case, minutiae, we don't have answers to. It seems picky...but we're talking about a crime scene with possible multiple offenders, staging, and a Chinese Great Wall of cover up for 15 years.

    The sequence of what was done to the child and where should have been nailed down by LE long ago.

    So if it was, Kolar should know. If he doesn't know, then for all the 60K pages of case file, somebody didn't do the job they should have.
     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks, Pearlsim. I tend to agree with you on this.
     
  15. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    For the record, the oversized Bloomie panties on JonBenet WERE urine stained according to the autopsy report.

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/library/autopsy.pdf

    "Beneath the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the words 'Wednesday' on the elastic band. The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch in maximum dimension."
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Ah, thank you, Cherokee!

    So that makes much more sense. She had on both the longjohns and Bloomies when her bladder released.

    Learnin, you asked about blood on the carpet outside the cellar room, in the urine there? It's a good question. If they tested to see if it was JB's urine, seems they would have found her blood in it, as well.

    Okay, what's the biology of determining whose urine it is? (I can't believe I'm asking these questions.)

    Seems I once read that it was only identifiable with skin cells sloughed off, same with mucous.

    In the case of the urine outside the cellar door, perhaps it included blood DNA, blood cells actually containing DNA?

    But as far as I remember, no one has ever stated what the lab report of that stain specifically was, just the conclusion.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2012
  17. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    She may NOT have had the size 12 panties on when her bladder released. They may have gotten wet with urine from simply being placed under the already-wet longjohns. But not wet enough to cause the blood stains to bleed into the longjohns as well. Water mixes molecules. It is why my Jewish friends tell me in a Kosher house the same dishwasher or sink cannot be used to wash dishes that have served both meat and dairy.
    The absence of blood on the longjohns when blood is in the panties is hard to explain if they were both on when her bladder voided.
     
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Dang. See this is why we need some CSI reading these reports, laying it out.

    This is why I say SURELY in 15 years, with $2 million spent in this investigation, THEY HAVE TO KNOW THESE ANSWERS!

    Thank you, DeeDee. They should hire you to solve this case!
     
  19. Karen

    Karen Member

    This thread is going off in all different directions but I just wanted to jump in here and say Patsy said in one of her police interviews that Jonbenet slept in Burkes room on Christmas Eve. So the pj's she was wearing in that Christmas morning photo are obviously the ones she wore while sleeping in Burkes room Christmas Eve. How many people following this case really believe Jonbenet would put those pj's under her pillow on Christmas day when she got dressed? No, they would fall where they dropped. That pj top looks like it was flung on to the bed when she got dressed. For someone who never made her own bed there's no way she would take the time to put her pj's under the pillow. So IMO this is yet another lie by Patsy when she says she was searching under JB's pillow for the pj's she wore the night before. They were not there and she knew it.
    And where are the bottoms? In the photo her bottoms don't look pink to me. They look like white longjohns with some kind of pattern on them. I don't see anything like that in any crime scene photo we have access to. So where are the pj bottoms? Were those flung off somewhere also? My best guess is they are probably in the bathroom somewhere and we just can't see them in any photo we've seen. But I don't see them mentioned anywhere in any search documents, books or interviews either. The mysterious disappearing pj bottoms, never to be mentioned again. If she had wet them she would not be wearing them again the following night so it makes sense she would pull out a different pair, (and this time it was again thermal longjohn bottoms, coincidence?)to wear.
    I wonder if the blow to the head happened when Jonbenet was halfway dressed in her pj's. Maybe she had gotten her bottoms on but hadn't changed her top yet when she was struck?
     
  20. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Good point about JB sleeping in Burke's room Christmas Eve.

    But there's the same problem: we only have Patsy's word on that.

    I am beginning to wonder if Patsy Ramsey ever said a thing that wasn't a lie.

    Wading through the lies alone is like being in quicksand: the more you struggle, the deeper you go.

    Sorry I'm running off topic. I do still see these related to the three original questions, though. It all runs together, like the links in a chain.
     
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