Child of Rage

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by BobC, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    To clear up any confusion on the dates - Burke was born January 27, 1987. He would have been almost five when Beth died in the car accident on January 8, 1992.

    Wombat, thanks for laying it all out like you did about the disfiguring operations and chemo Patsy had to go through ... and all without John who stayed in Boulder. Her self-esteem must have taken a horrible hit, especially for someone who had always had their image tied up with how she looked. Imagine, a beauty queen who has been cut from stem to stern, sterilized and made bald from the chemo while gaining weight and puffiness from the prednisone. I'm sure Patsy didn't feel very attractive, and her sex drive would have been nil. At that point in her life, she would have been in survival mode. The house and kids would have been a lot for her to handle. Once she got to feeling better, it became important to Patsy for JonBenet to be the sexualized beauty queen - the person Patsy would never be again. JonBenet was Patsy's "mini-me," and it made Patsy feel good for JonBenet to win pageants and be considered the prettiest girl there.
     
  2. otg

    otg Member

    I don't want to make this too personal, but just so it's understood where I'm coming from, I will tell this. I have never mentioned this anywhere else, and I probably never will again.

    Over the past year, Mrs. otg and I have been going through exactly this. She was diagnosed with Stage-4 ovarian cancer in August of last year -- she had a CA-125 of ~1,150 (normal range is 0 - 35), she had a tumor on each of her ovaries (each about the size of a grapefruit), and the CT-scans showed that it had spread to surrounding organs and tissue. Since then she's had nine chemos (each one takes up about 10-hours with lab work, Dr. visit, and IV treatment), three surgeries, and I-don't-know how many other doctor visits and consultations. There's no way she would be in any condition during or after any one of these things to be without me. So I do understand what it is to go through this. But I know we're not the only ones who have gone through something like this.

    The only reason for telling you this is because I can not for the life of me imagine a husband (or a wife) not being with their partner every single minute of every one of those procedures, appointments, hospital stays, or consultations with the doctors. I know what Mrs. otg went through -- the pain, the nausea, the sleepless nights, yes the 'chemo-brain", the mental anguish not knowing how long she might live. I watched her going through all our stuff -- organizing it and putting labels on it so I would know what it was when she was gone, and the whole time trying to smile and be brave for me.

    So anyway, it's not like I had a very high opinion of JR to begin with after following this case for so long... but knowing that he didn't even go with Patsy for her treatments, after seeing personally what it's like, just lowers him in my mind to a level that no one can imagine. I don't even know what else to say. I simply can't find the words to describe it.

    But on the brighter side personally, my wife has finished her treatments and we only go back to the doctor every three months now for lab work, checkups, and monitoring. Her doctor has declared her "cancer free". We both know that survival rates are not very good long term, but people do make it through this. The important thing is to make the most of what time we have here. We're all only here for a short time.
     
  3. wombat

    wombat Member

    From Cherokee:

    You're welcome. Whoops on Burke's age when Patsy got sick, he was 5 as Cherokee points out.


    She went to the National Institute of Health in Bethesda for experimental treatment that wasn't available anywhere else. She was young and otherwise healthy, they like people like that in trials.

    BTW I think Patsy and John had little to no sex life after she got sick, not that I can be sure about it. She was pretty much maimed, and I cannot imagine that they were adventurous/experimental/creative. Also their bedroom had no doors; what was up with that?

    From otg:

    My heart goes out to you and the Mrs., otg. I completely understand what you have been going through, as ovarian cancer runs in my family, and I was diagnosed with and underwent treatment for breast cancer as well. You are right, make the most of the time we have.

    As awful as it is, cancer, or any serious illness, brings people together, families deal with the treatment together, and EVERYONE needs to maintain their mental health. After treatment ends, you are supposed to go live your life, but your life is not the same, and you need to deal with it in healthy ways. All evidence indicates the R's did not.
     
  4. Elle

    Elle Member

    You are one very brave devoted husband, for sure, otg. I am so sorry your wife had to go through so much to stay alive. I wish her all the best and with a loving husband like you by her side, she sure has a good chance.
     
  5. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    You are a good man, O.

    Anyway--I am astonished that anyone would read my posts and suggest that I thought JBR gave herself the vaginal injuries. You are missing the point completely.
     
  6. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I will pray for your wife, otg, that she makes a complete and full recovery. Bless you for being there for her.
     
  7. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    OTG, it brought me to tears to read your post. What a wonderful husband you are, and I hope and pray your wife is a long-term survivor - one who beats the odds. Thank you for telling us your story and how it relates to the Ramsey case.

    I've always held John Ramsey in low esteem for not accompanying Patsy on even ONE of her chemo trips to Bethesda, MD. I can't imagine a spouse showing so little love and regard for their mate.

    Wombat, I know you have been through a lot as well. Many of us here at FFJ have had health issues in the past, or are currently fighting them now. As both you and OTG said, we have to make the most of every day. Bonnie Raitt said it so well ... "Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste."

    Love and hugs to all here at FFJ. :grouphug:
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2012
  8. wombat

    wombat Member

    No, I don't believe that! I swear! I must have written poorly. I think she might have been unusually focussed on her vaginal area because of the abuse by someone else. I shouldn't post about this sort of thing; I know very little about child psychology. I just think there were huge emotional issues in the household and this created psychological problems in the kids, but I cannot decently do a cuase-and-effect analysis.
     
  9. heymom

    heymom Member

    I know exactly what you mean, otg. I have a feeling that JR didn't have the ability to be present for Patsy. She would have had to soldier on through all of that by herself, with only his money to keep her company and give her support. It doesn't compensate at all. I wonder about Narcissistic Personality Disorder - they really don't care about others unless they need you for something, and only until they don't need you any more. And if you get sick, or something breaks, well, tough luck for you, ta-ta, they are gone.

    John Ramsey was not going to take a break from his business to take Patsy to her chemo appointments, no way. And the kids! My gosh, they were just little mites to go through that scary time with their mom!

    Now, kids are adaptable to an extent. As I said earlier, or in another thread, I really didn't realize that my mother was as sick as she was. She'd been ill my whole life and I just took all the hospital visits, pills, etc. as normal. I can clearly remember playing with a particular toy on her hospital bed just before she passed away. I was totally oblivious of what was going to happen. Completely focused on my own little wishes and desires. I just never thought about my mama dying. I'm sure Burke and JonBenet didn't really grasp the seriousness of what was going on with their mom, but since Patsy actually left them on a regular basis, and was sick when she got home, it must have affected them, especially Burke, since he was older.

    If JR wasn't paying much attention to the kids, they must have felt completely abandoned when Patsy got sick. And everyone soldiered on...obviously there were cracks in the pretty picture - the bed-wetting, the disorder in the house, etc. but Patsy kept up appearances, probably always trying to please her Ice Man.

    Your wife is a lucky woman. And you must love her very much. I hope she stays cancer free from now on.
     
  10. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    I am so sorry to hear what you and your wife went through OTG. But I am so glad she appears to be so much better and I hope she stays that way. Yes, you are a wonderful husband (unlike our John) to stick by her. You did the right thing.

    And Wombat, I am sorry to hear about your cancer. I am lucky that I've never had any form of it, but then it seems like it is attacking so many people anymore. Wish they would wipe this vile disease off the map.

    I didn't realize just how much Patsy endured with her ovarian cancer. I knew about some of it, but not all.
     
  11. heymom

    heymom Member

    There are some things underway right now that will absolutely cure a bunch of different kinds of cancer.

    But oh, dear...please don't call John Ramsey "our John." That about made me gag.

    :yuck::puke:
     
  12. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    OK, fair enough. How about "Liz"?
     
  13. otg

    otg Member

    Calling him "Liz" would be an insult to reptiles everywhere.

    Sorry, guys, I didn't mean to turn the conversation around like this. Thank you all for the kind words, good wishes, and especially the prayers. Like I said, I know I'm not the only one struggling with this -- or something else. I just wanted you to understand exactly how despicable JR was (and is). I don't care how important he felt like he was to his company, he should have been there for Patsy and for their kids. Who knows but what that if he had been, things might have been different. I won't try to analyze the dynamics of the R family. That's beyond my knowledge and not something I'm very good at. And I'm not suggesting that this one thing is what caused all the problems that were going on in that hellhole. But I know there were things going on with them that did not make for a healthy environment to raise kids in. I know it was beginning to show in little things that others were beginning to notice, and Patsy was beginning to see (even though she didn't want to.) Too bad they couldn't have stopped it in time.

    Okay, carry on.
    :thumbsup:
     
  14. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Well, I was the first to make mention of the traumatized little girl stating that
    her vag. was inflamed because of her rubbing it. In no way did I mean that JBR caused the chronic injuries to her hymen, etc.

    The connection I was making was this. The traumatized little girl was sexually abused and it caused her to rub herself and this caused irritation.
    Could some of JBR's vaginal irritation problems have stemmed from the same rubbing, etc.?
     
  15. Thor

    Thor Active Member

     
  16. heymom

    heymom Member

    I think it is more likely to have been caused by the sexual abuse she was undergoing. The autopsy report said nothing about vulvar irritation. Remember, the vagina is the INTERIOR part of a female, not the exterior. The vulva is the external part. If JonBenet's vulva had been inflamed, I'm sure Dr. Meyer would have noted it. Also, if JonBenet were disturbed enough to masturbate like that, other people would have seen signs of the problem. Beth Thomas was a seriously disturbed child.
     
  17. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    I know so many people with cancer right now--makes me very sad. You have to just live life and appreciate what you have while you have it. My beloved dogs Otis and Ellie both have cancer and it is breaking my heart.

    Anyway, Wombat I was not directing that at anybody in particular, just surprised that a few posters thought I was suggesting JBR gave herself those injuries. The field of psychology is in it's infancy and a lot of it is really philosophy. AND many of the "experts" are crazier than the kids they are treating (I could tell you stories you wouldn't believe). Still others are in the field for the money. I got really tired of psychiatrists making a pit-stop at our facility in their Ferraris, asking a few innocuous questions, and then suggesting we up the dose of meds on any kid who made the slightest infraction of the rules. It was disgusting.

    Back to the case. Bed wetting/soiling past a certain age are usually signs of high anxiety if there isn't a physiological problem causing them, like a urinary tract infection. None of our kids were bed-wetters. In JBR's case, it could have just been the intense pressure Patsy put on her. Did you all see that Patsy paid someone to mow their neighbor's yard because she was having a party and she didn't even tell the neighbor? Also--a man called the Peter Boyles show years ago and said he'd met Patsy and JBR at some pageant-related celebration which was outside in the winter, and JBR was in her skimpy pageant regalia. The man offered JBR his coat, but Patsy turned in down JBR had to be on display! And during the Boulder Tour of homes, Patsy had a Christmas tree in virtually every room. Now, there is over-doing it and then there is OVER-DOING IT. That get-up JBR wore with the huge feathers and sequins was another example. Pressure, pressure pressure. Everything had to be perfect and flawless and that comes with a price.

    Smearing feces on walls and a candy box is not a red flag, it is a signal flare. I am stunned that this has not gotten out before. To me, that was the biggest bombshell in the book. I certainly understand the need for an "island of privacy" regarding medical records.
     
  18. Elle

    Elle Member

    otg,

    It was Thor who christened John Ramsey Lizard lips many years ago, due to the fact that when John spoke his drooling tongue was on display. All the members of FFJ way back then sanctioned it. You can't take this away from Thor. She earned high praise from all the posters way back then.:)
     
  19. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Otg,

    I am just reading your notes regarding your wife and her battle with Cancer. I am so sorry that both of you have had to endure this. You are a wonderful husband to go through this with her. Of course you love her and will help in any way possible I'm sure. That wasn't easy for you to tell us about. My prayers go out to you both.

    It points out just what a cold fish JR really was or still is. I've always wondered about his telling the story about helping JB get ready for bed that night and then doing some reading to her. He just isn't the "daddy" type at all. After she is dead his first thought was to get outa town. Really.

    Wombat I'm sorry to hear about your having the big C also. My prayers are for you to recover and live a long life full of happiness.
     
  20. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Unfortunately, the dysfunction level was so high in that family, no one paid attention to the distress signal.

    A friend of mine is a consultant, and she happened to be in Parkersburg, WV several years ago for one of her clients. While there, my friend asked one of the people she was working with if she knew Patsy Ramsey. The other person said yes, so my friend asked about them, specifically about Burke. The other person said something like ... everyone knew Burke had an anger problem and that he'd gone to a special school or program for it when he was young. That's not a direct quote, but is a paraphrase of what was said. They acted like it was common knowledge about people who knew the Ramsey/Paugh families.

    When I started reading what was in Kolar's book about Burke, the first thing I thought of was that person in Parkersburg had said he'd had some kind of treatment for his anger issues. Furthermore, they were sure EVERYONE who knew the Ramseys back then knew about it.

    At the time the story was told to me, I thought the anger problems might be related to Burke's symptoms of having Asperger's Syndrome. People who score even on the low end of the autism spectrum can get frustrated and upset very easily because it's hard for them to adapt to change or anything that is not done their way. They have to be taught skills for dealing with what they sometimes cannot communicate effectively.

    Now that I know more about the turmoil in the Ramsey home, and the feces smearing and other actions from Burke, I'm afraid his anger and emotional disturbance went much deeper than an occasional outburst from an intelligent and high-functioning person with Asperger's Syndrome.
     
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