In which room do you think the head blow occurred?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Learnin, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. Elle

    Elle Member

    So are those skinny rods actually golf clubs, Cherokee? H-E-L-P!
     
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    Whew! I'm still bleeding from that last walk down the plank....
     

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  3. Elle

    Elle Member

    I have trouble with the train track poking hm (?). If she was wearing cliothes, how would these poke/prodding marks show up? I think these marks would only show up if they were actually prodded into bare skin not on top of her clothes or jammies, whatever (?). Know what I mean?
     
  4. Elle

    Elle Member

    Your post is believable, Pearlsim!
     
  5. heymom

    heymom Member

    I agree with most of your scenario, Learnin. But the stick stuck up inside JonBenet's vagina was done to cover up the prior abuse, I feel certain about that. Maybe one of the parents, either John or Patsy, didn't know about the abuse, or maybe they both did, but whichever one decided to stick the paintbrush up inside her definitely did know what he/she was trying to cover up.

    I forgot, did LE find the part of the paintbrush that had been poked up inside JonBenet, or was that part of the evidence along with the duct tape and cord that was never found?
     
  6. Elle

    Elle Member

    I agree with this heymom. This is exactly why this broken brush was used! To cover up prior abuse. This is why the whole staging was arranged. Instead of Patsy Ramsey taking action and preventing further abuse to her young daughter, she was still too deeply into entering JonBenét into child beauty pageants. Where were her priorities?
     
  7. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    This scenario is very close to what I think happened as well. But I think it was BR who jabbed JBR with the paintbrush. I think the stager then broke up the paintbrush, wiped it clean of BR prints, and disposed of the part of the brush that caused the vaginal injury.

    I don't think BR had anything to do with the ligature. IMO PR and JR did all of the staging - "erasing" everything that was connected to the truth of what happened - and part of its purpose was to hide the truth from BR so he wouldn't connect JBR's death to anything he had done.

    JR also tried to "erase" the broken window by lying about it. Therefore, I believe it is connected in some way to what happened - if not that night, then a prior time. Did BR try to attack JBR previously with a golf club (besides the known prior incident) and hit the window?

    I suspect BR of regularly abusing JBR - sexually, physically and other acting out of anger, i.e. the chocolate box. IMO what happened that night was an escalation of what was already taking place. IMO PR and JR knew about the abuse, that BR had issues, and he was in therapy for it, hence the hidden medical records.

    You mention JBR gurgling and I've always wondered what awful reaction she may have been having to the head blow, i.e. convulsing?, and then possibly the cheyne-stokes breathing mentioned in Kolar's book (p. 65). Point being, some dramatic horrifying physical symptoms, versus simple unconsciousness, that would've motivated PR and JR to do a "mercy killing" while at the same time stage a "crime scene."

    IMO the purpose of the staged strangulation - that is, leaving the ligature ON JBR's neck - was to divert attention away from both the head injury AND the vaginal injury. Why stage a sexual attack only to unstage it by cleaning up and dressing?

    It doesn't make sense to me that they'd think they could cover up prior abuse by inflicting a new injury, since if they were aware of evidence of prior abuse, what made them think the new injury would hide it? Seems more likely to me that the new injury would only add to the abuse evidence, not replace it. I don't know.

    Finally, is it possible they were hoping the cause of death would be so blatantly obvious that no one would feel the need to do an autopsy? Or maybe they thought their political connections would help them avoid an autopsy? I understand that the autopsy would be automatic but I didn't know that until reading on this case.
     
  8. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Another thing about the ligature. Kolar states that the cord was taken out and snipped in succession. I forget how and what was cut first. There was a burned end, and then all other lengths were cut in succession as the ligatures were made. Sounds like an adult with gloves on.

    Another thing. I think the stager(s) had to run up and down from the basement to the second floor and back down to get things...this is why the lights were turned down and the flashlight was used. It's also why, IMO, the light in the solarium was turned off for the first time the neighbor could ever remember. I could just hear the stagers: "You have to turn the lights off like we're asleep because if the neighbors see our lights burning until 2 in the morning, they're going to know it wasn't an intruder." The dim lights that the neighbor saw through the window was, IMO, the stager(s) retrieving things from upstairs. I've always thought it was significant that the solarium light was off and it indicated an "inside" job. An intruder, coming in through the basement window or through a back door wouldn't have need to be in the living room area, etc.

    And my belief is becoming more and more strong that the stager(s) changed their mind(s) about staging a sex crime vs. a kidnapping gone wrong. It explains why someone jabbed JBR and yet cleaned her.
     
  9. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    You could be right about the stick being used to cover up prior abuse. I wouldn't argue the point but my problem with this is I can't understand why she was cleaned up. If they jabbed her with a stick to make it look like she had been sexually molested by an intruder that night (in order to cover up prior abuse), then, why clean her up? I won't belabor the point because maybe PR simply couldn't stand her to be bloodied. The quandry, for me, is simply: Was the stager(s) staging a kidnapping scene or a sexual sadistic murder? Therein lies the confusion and I'm only attempting to explain the contradiction. It might be that the stager(s) started out to stage a sexual scene then came up with a better scenario (in their mind) such as a kidnapping gone wrong. But, again, I'm not insisting on this.

    On the other hand, experts tell us that a person, guilty of murdering someone they care for, will try to undo the crime as best they can and there are certainly signs of that here.

    I do not believe the other part of the stick was ever found.
     
  10. Elle

    Elle Member

    She was cleaned up because this is what a mother usually does with her children, Learnin. Plus it was just force of habit. Patsy gave herself away here, I think! Maybe never even gave this a thought while it was being done, because it was always done with JonBenét.
     
  11. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I wouldn't argue this point.

    I agree that the staging had a double purpose and one was to give BR a way out.

    Point well taken. I believe the window was broken before that night but maybe not the way JR told.

    I've always felt it was BR or JAR doing the abuse. Since Kolar's book, I suspicion BR even moreso.

    The point being I think whatever horrible response JBR might have been manifesting right after the headblow, at the very least, it let the parents know that she was injured very seriously.

    Precisely the difficulty I have! Why stage a sexual attack and then clean it up? I agree with you. All the other staging was done to divert attention away from the vagina.

    I think you've nailed it, here. They decided to make it look like a kidnapping with child being held in basement bound and gagged with tape. Parents call against the clear and repeated after repeated after repeated (Patsy anyone?) instructions not to call the police.
     
  12. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    It does have mother written all over it, doesn't it?
     
  13. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Yes. The screen captures from the "train room" video show different angles of the objects, and they look like metal rods with black rubber grips the size of youth golf clubs. Unfortunately, the Daily Beast logo is over the ends of the clubs on the basement floor, so the club heads are difficult to see. The objects are not curtain rods. If you look through the various photos KK has posted at the beginning of the "Extra golf clubs seen in Ramsey basement/train room video" thread here at FFJ, or go to the Ramsey Case Library and look at the screen captures KK and Cynic have posted from the "train room" video, there are more photos of clubs than the one or two I posted.

    Kolar says Burke had a youth set of golf clubs downstairs. We know that two years earlier, Burke hit JonBenet in the face with a club in Charlevoix. I seriously doubt he was using an adult golf club at age 7 1/2, so I imagine it was from his youth set. Patsy even say Burke had his whiffle ball" there with the club, so he wasn't hitting real golf balls, if you believe what she said.

    John was an avid golfer both before, and after, he met Patsy. I think the game was very important to him. He learned it from his dad, and I believe he wanted Burke to learn from him.

    Interestingly, there was also a golf club found in the Ramsey back yard. It was taken into evidence, but we've not heard much about it.

    http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-evidence.htm

    May 9, 2000 - Live Chat with former Detective Steve Thomas on About.com

    crimeADM: "We've been told that the paperback will include several corrections. Anything of substance?"

    Steve Thomas: "One item-page 44, a last minute mistake - ballbat with hair on it should read "golfclub with hair on it," found outside on west side of house. Ballbat found in north yard ...."
     
  14. brenk

    brenk Member

    It's hard to know what to believe, but I remember PR saying JB didn't
    want her to give the other pair of undies away, she wanted them, so
    PR said she let her keep them and they were just pitched in a drawer.
    brenk
     
  15. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Argh, you scurvy knavette, you are not! You didn't walk down any plank; I walked your pyrate booty back here to the FFJ Guttah where it belongs! :pirate:
     
  16. Elle

    Elle Member

    Exactly Learnin! Without even knowing what she was doing, she was still being JonBenét's mother!
     
  17. heymom

    heymom Member

    Thank you for laying this scenario out so clearly. Maybe BR did use the whole paintbrush, either before he hit JonBenet over the head (and she then screamed) or afterward, as she lay there mostly unconscious on the floor. If those marks on her back and cheek were from the end of the train track being poked into her, either Burke did it to see if she'd wake up, or he did it out of cruelty.

    As for what could have happened after she was hit....My son was knocked out for a few minutes after he fell and hit his head. But when he started coming to, he did scream, an unearlthy, high-pitched keening that I have been told many head-injury patients make. I could not hush him up. I think it was involuntary. Now, his skull fracture was nothing like JonBenet's, and he was semi-conscious at the time, so I'm not sure JonBenet was able to make that sound, but if she was, everyone in the house would have heard it. It was horrible. He was also bleeding from his right ear.

    My son did not have seizures, and once the first responders arrived, they were able to talk to him and get him to stop the screaming and calm down, which I could not do. Then they loaded him into the ambulance, drove him to the local airport and life-flighted him to a level 1 Trauma hospital 90 miles away. Thank God it was a mild to minor skull fracture and he recovered in a few days.

    I only share the circumstances to compare them with the very severe injury that JonBenet suffered the night she died, not to get sympathy.

    I think your scenario of the "mercy killing" may be very true - that JonBenet was not simply lying there inert but was moaning, or seizing, or bleeding from her ears, or having Cheyne-Stokes breaths, something that horrified her parents and drove them to think of some way to end it for her.

    And all the clean-up was to hopefully hide the injury to her vagina, but as it turned out, she continued to bleed a little, even after the clean-up. So the evidence of the sexual assault was there on her underwear and the physical evidence was there also.

    It's hard for me to think that either John or Patsy was monster enough to dig a sharp object into the vagina of their dying little girl, but I can believe that Burke would do it. Given all the other signs we now understand better, I think he may well have been rather nonplussed, which also explains his response the next morning. It really didn't bother him all that much.
     
  18. Elle

    Elle Member

    I don't think it was Burke Ramsey who used part of the brush to add injury upon injury to JonBenét's vagina after she was dead. I don't think he would have given this action too much thought, because he was just going on ten, but an adult would!
     
  19. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    The coroner cut the cord from her neck and marked the ends where he made the cuts with black marker. I would hope HE wore gloves, but nothing in what I have read so far makes me think whoever put that cord on her wore gloves.
    The neighbor who saw the lights in the R kitchen window described them as "strange, moving, lights" in other words, EXACTLY like someone walking around with the flashlight.
     
  20. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Clearly, I'm off on a tangent all by my lonesome.

    Ah. Been there....

    But I have to try again, because I do need some feedback--the ideas of others to help me dissect my thoughts, to discard or enhance them. I've posted about this at topix, but the chance of objective response there is slim, so I'll try again here, because I think this is crucial.

    So, I repeat my thoughts:

    I think I've concentrated the events of that night to the issue of livor mortis, after the strangulation, being critical as to what happened next.

    Again: if livor mortis takes about 20 minutes to set in after death...

    If only 20 minutes passed before moving the body, and moving the body after that time would have been obvious from livor mortis; and if there was no indication the body had been moved after that 20 minute window:

    Then no more 20 minutes elapsed between the strangulation by the paint tray and the staging in the cellar room.

    What does that tell us?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Nothing, apparently.

    I thought I read "20 minutes" was the time in which livor mortis started setting in, but that's not what I'm reading now.

    http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/pathology/post-mortem-interval/

    So what did the autopsy say about petechial hemorrhaging on the face?

    Here's another source, which states that lividity (livor mortis) starts at 30 minutes, but the timeline is much longer than I thought:

    http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/rigor-mortis-and-lividity.html

    So...the body could have been moved from outside the cellar door to inside the cellar room within 6 hours? Is that what I'm reading?

    So Patsy and/or JR could have "found" the body by the paint tray and had plenty of time to decide to stage/move it into the cellar room?

    Okay, never mind. I told y'all I should be on a long vacay.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2012
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