Sexual Behavior Problems (SBP) - from James Kolar's book about Ramsey case

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Jul 27, 2012.

  1. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    By then he was fully participating in the coverup, so IMO he deliberately changed the gender of the pronoun to throw suspicion on the fictitious intruder.

    As for whether or not he was clueless when the 911 call was made, there were only, what, four minutes, between the call and when the first cop showed up, right? So in four short minutes JR managed to get on board with the coverup, lying about Burke, hustling him out of there asap, and then acting all calm and cordial for the police, even having the presence of mind to not touch the note? Seems awfully quick for someone who is totally clueless, but maybe he was able to do that.
     
  2. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    I tend to agree, but I'd thought possibly they concocted the plan together (that is, the plan set up by the note) and then Patsy was left in charge of writing the note while John attended to other aspects of the staging. Possibly he spent time trying out various staging ideas, which would have been time-consuming. Maybe one of those ideas was the broken basement window, which he later abandoned by explaining it away. Anyway, point being, they ran out of time and there wasn't any time left to rewrite the note, so he was stuck with it.

    Patsy's fibers connect her to JBR's staged body, though, so she was apparently actively involved in that part of the staging as well. But IMO that would've taken place before writing the ransom note, due to time of death being around 1:00 a.m.
     
  3. wombat

    wombat Member

    Off topic, but how did Mrs. Ramsey show up at the door when the cops came with fresh makeup on? How could she not be puffy and streaky? During my times of crisis (you know, football teams losing, etc.) I cry my makeup off, and the reapplication always looks a little drag-queen-y. If she presented a clean face to John at 530 AM, then he didn't know. Or he made gave her a bag of frozen peas to get rid of the redness and swelling as part of the entire charade.

    Never mind.

    I like this discussion of "when did John join the coverup?" The most plausible to me is that Patsy found JonBenet first, went down the road a little with a coverup, and then got messed up and went to get John. Exactly when this happened...unknown.

    I can't believe James Kolar got me to turn away from PDI after fifteen years of being 95% sure it was her. Good work, sir.
     
  4. Karen

    Karen Member

    There had to be time for John and Patsy to come up with the cover story. You know, Jonbenet fell asleep in the car and he carried her in, la tee da,. (HA!)
    Maybe after Patsy screamed and John read the ransom note and didn't buy it, Patsy fessed up, John got Burke up, and maybe at that time is when they concocted this story. BEFORE Patsy called 911.
    I wonder if they had originally planned to get up before the time they said? I always wondered how Patsy did everything she said like getting dresssed, make up, fussing with Jonbenets jumper, on her way downstairs to fix coffee and a light breakfast all in the time supposedly alloted before they had to get to the plane.
    I wonder if that is part of the whole lie. They planned to get up earlier. So John was up earlier and they had more time than we were led to believe before the 911 call.

    However, if Burke was woken up and confessed then why would he be saying "What did you find?" It has also been said he said, "Please what do I do?"
    Now THAT comment makes sense.
    Of course, Patsy could have made him go to his room while she wrote the ransom note without him knowing, and so when she was on the phone saying she found a ransom note he would ask, "what did you find?"
    I can see Patsy wanting to keep Burke out of it as much as she could so as not to tell him what she was going to do.
     
  5. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    There you go! And BobC, I bet we could conduct that little experiment of yours with a 1,000 people (who knew nothing about this case) and everyone of them would give the same answer...

    Those two shoulda got 3 months just for saying they did not wake their son.

    Man, even if both of them were guiltless, they should've spent a couple of years behind bars just for screwing up the whole investigation.
     
  6. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Good discussion.

    I'm of the opinion that, if JR was totally ignorant when he heard PR scream, then PR did the whole thing. I simply can't believe that PR would fail to get JR if she found that BR had mortally wounded their daughter.

    Now. As Karen stated, maybe PR fessed up after JR read the ransom note and knew PR had written it. Maybe, at that point, she fingered BR and this is why they reported that BR slept through the whole thing. If you think about it, this would explain everything that happened after that.

    1. JR and PR's coldness toward one another after police arrived. It is stated
    that they stayed in separate rooms and JR never comforted his wife. Think about it. JR would have been very upset that PR didn't get him when BR, supposedly, inflicted the wound.

    2. "He didn't mean to kill her."

    3. The hiring of separate lawyers since PR was the one who did the staging, etc., without JR's knowledge.

    4. Father Rol's coldness toward PR at the church service that I think Shapiro or someone reported on whereby he greeted JR and ignored PR during the offering of peace.

    5. It would also explain the 911 conversation after the phone was supposedly hung up: Here, BR is asking questions and JR cuts him off.

    I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm just throwing it out there as it would
    explain a lot.

    I could see it playing out something like this.

    JR: "This letter is phony as shoet! It's your handwriting...you wrote this thing. What's going on?

    PR: "No, I didn't.

    JR: "The hell you didn't...what did you do?"

    PR: "Listen John...I'm just protecting our son. blah blah blah....


    But then again: Why wasn't John's fingerprints on that ransom note since we know he handled it? Or did he?
     
  7. Karen

    Karen Member

    He probably didn't. And it was probably never laid out across the step on the spiral staircase either. And he probably never laid it out on the floor to read it while Patsy was on the phone either. But then again, why weren't Patsys fingerprints on it?

    About your #3, I believe they had to have separate criminal lawyers by law. One lawyer couldn't represent two different people in a criminal case. It's different in a civil case ala Woody.
     
  8. heymom

    heymom Member

    I want to know what everyone thinks JR was doing when Det. Arndt lost track of him in the house, before he "found" JonBenet's dead body. Was he hiding the evidence of what had really happened? Was he saying goodbye to his daughter? Or was he adding something to the scene? Maybe that is when a few of the calls were made? Did the phone trace extend to John's cell phone (that was lost, how convenient, lah-de-dah!)?

    Just wondering....
     
  9. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    We'll never know about the phone calls, thanks to the disgraceful actions of that judge. But I'd bet some calls were made. I think he was definitely in the basement, possibly adjusting some things, and maybe even pulling her closer to the door (by sliding her along the floor in the blanket).
     
  10. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Learnin--I'm with you. A Small Foreign Faction was in your house, "kidnapped" your daughter, killed her, and you don't bother asking your other kid if he was okay, let alone if he saw or heard anything?

    The most ignorant parent on the face of the earth should be stripped of his or her parental duties if they thought that. I mean, come on.
     
  11. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    I agree with DeeDee. I think he was in the basement, possibly making calls and double-checking for evidence they'd overlooked, all in preparation for his having to "find" JBR's body himself since the police hadn't. Since he disappeared not long after the deadline for the kidnapper's non-existent call and her body hadn't yet been found, he knew he was probably going to have to do it himself, IMO.

    I think he/they originally had more elaborate plans involving getting the body out of the house, using the plan set up by the note (Plan A), but then couldn't figure out how to do it once faced with the reality of the cops and house full of people.

    So he went down to the basement between 10:30 and 11:00 with the intent of "finding" the body himself (Plan B) and decided to give it a little more time (maybe on advice from a phone call?) for someone else to find her OR for a more credible opportunity to do it himself. To just arbitrarily disappear and reappear with her body would be way too suspicious.

    I also agree that he possibly slid her body into a more visible spot. Then he went back upstairs and waited for the opportunity for someone else to find her or for the opportunity to do it himself in the least suspicious way possible under the circumstances - thank you, Linda Arndt.

    I think his comment later about finding JB at 11:00 a.m. was because that was when he was first preparing to do it (launch of Plan B) prior to thinking better of it, and had that 11:00 time in his mind.
     
  12. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    JR's "11 am" comment directly corresponds to the time Arndt said he was "missing" - between 10 am and noon. They made quite FEW slips of the tongue. Saying he "found" her at 11 am was one of them. Saying "that wasn't supposed to be there" when shown a crime photo of the pink nightie on the white blanket in the wineceller was another.
     
  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    I'm slow moving with reading Kolar's book. I have family visiting us, but I am reading it, and I was very surprised at my last reading to find out at the bottom of page 132 - 133 investigators noted something unusual in the Ramsey home.

    You can read the rest in your books! Unbelievable! Something far wrong with this scene, folks!

    Why were the Ramseys not hauled over the coals for this incident? Frustrating!
     
  14. heymom

    heymom Member

    I guess if the DA had been objective, Elle...they would have been. But whatever the Ramseys did, they did with immunity.
     
  15. Learnin

    Learnin Member


    Yea, Arndt sure gave John the break he needed. I wonder how things would have played out had she not asked John to take a look???

    And. John must've really been on edge for her to suggest a thing...I mean he must've really been close to panic to make her suggest a thing. And I bet John liked to scared her to death jumping out of that chair when she suggested he look the house over.

    When you think about it, is it any wonder Arndt thought John was good for it when he came up carrying his daughter's body???? Think about it. Cops searched the house. She suggests John look the house over and he makes a bee line to the basement and comes up, in a couple of minutes, with the body....Would any one have thought differently?
     
  16. heymom

    heymom Member

    No, unless it was DA Hunter. Unconscionable that this detective was left completely ALONE to try and keep the crime scene under control! Of course she couldn't prevent John and Patsy from contaminating JonBenet's body! If JR had truly wanted to leave, could she even have stopped him? I seriously doubt it. All talk of how many bullets she had in her gun aside - Big talk from a BPD detective. Who knows when she'd even drawn her gun last, let alone go to the range.

    As for what would have happened had Arndt not told JR and FW to search the house....Well, the smell of a decaying body would have eventually wafted up the stairs...and someone else would have found JB's body, with less contamination, and no movement of her corpse...JR figured he'd better get his DNA on her somehow in case it was found after the body was found...I am sure he wanted to have an excuse for his fiber evidence or DNA being found on her. Plus he was the first to see and remove her ties on her wrists, so he could tell a story about how tightly she had been bound. That was of course, a lie.

    I think he needed to get the "show on the road," so to speak, get them out of that house and away from LE, so he beat cheeks down to the basement to get the ball rolling.
     
  17. Elle

    Elle Member

    I think the big mistake was putting JonBenét into the windowless room in the basement and then locking it with the wooden bar above the door. One policeman took one look at that lock at the top and left it alone. It is difficult for me to think the Ramseys thought they would ever be left alone?. Not very well planned out. Patsy wasted too much time writing the ransom note.

    What a strange situation. Linda Arndt is the one whose clothes are taken in a plastic bag, while the Ramseys are free to go to the Fernies' and stay there.
    The police were not in charge of this scene at all! Unbelievable!

    You are right Learnin! Linda Arndt gave John the chance to set the wheels in motion to find JonBenét.
     
  18. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Elle, your post #34 re. the video set up through out the house gave me a jolt when I first read it too. My comment to myself was 'HOW SNEAKY!' it was stated that "Ramsey attorneys and their team of investigators took responsibility for placing the recorders but no one ever admitted to activating the recorder before the investigators arrived on the scene that day." And that further they had to be set manually and that was done. Now that is sneaky. For what purpose and what if anything was found on the tapes? Who knows? And WHO WAS WATCHING WHO? (or is it whom). Where are those tapes now? and how long were they in the house or even better when actually did they get put in? And for exactly what purpose? No one ever said. It was the next day and already there were cameras placed everywhere? Why? It was important enough that Kolar mentioned it. And it was the first we had ever heard of it, and the last too.
     
  19. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    I'd like to know which rooms the four spy cams were in.
     
  20. Elle

    Elle Member

    Wasn't this a great discovery for the detectives, zoomama?. The Ramsey Team thought they were being smart recording everything which was being said by the cops. I'm so glad these detectives had sharp eyes noticing the thin wires under the basement stairs. This sent the Ramsey team a message! I'm glad they kicked in that door!
     
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