Three critical questions

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. Elle

    Elle Member

    Why couldn't the Ramseys have called 911? Because they knew they would be in trouble because of the sexual abuse evidence which would have presented itself, so the staging had to be created.
     
  2. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Burke did none of the staging--I can't believe anyone would think a 9 YO would have that kind of sophistication. The theatrical tone of the ransom note is pure patsy Ramsey, and I believe the whole garrote scenario is straight out of a Tom Clancy novel. I don't believe Patsy would have had the heart to twist that garrote to the degree it had been twisted.

    I believe both JR and PR staged the crime scene because half of it was melodramatic and showed maternal caring, but the other half was cold and methodical.

    I still don't believe anyone has gotten the trigger quite right yet. This was a rage killing. The manual strangulation and head blow show that the attack was more than a split second flip out--the attack went on for at least a few seconds.

    The question remains: what triggered this episode?
     
  3. cynic

    cynic Member

    We did hear about the golf club incident in both IRMI and PMPT.
    Here is some relevant information to the discussion from both sources:

    JonBenét was only four years old, not yet in kindergarten, when she hit the circuit, and the judges immediately knew that the sparkling beginner in the white dress still needed a lot of work, but they said she was a natural. In the summer of 1994 JonBenét was accidentally hit on the left cheek by a golf club swung by her brother, Burke, and her mother rushed the child to see a plastic surgeon, who thought Patsy was overreacting. The doctor apparently didn’t understand the importance of an imperfection on a budding beauty queen.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 4

    Among the items police now sought were the possible bludgeon that caused the head wound and any dark fabric that might account for the fibers found on the body. A red clay brick that appeared to have fibers stuck to it was retrieved from the living room fireplace, and a golf club with a blond hair on it was found in the backyard. They were also looking for traces of semen, and in the victim’s bedroom, ultraviolet light showed stains on the bed and surrounding carpet. The mattress was wrapped in plastic.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 48

    Patsy awoke while he was gone and staggered from the bedroom to a couch, barely able to speak, and told her sisters she needed some things from Fifteenth Street. John was overheard to ask someone quietly, “Did you get my golf bag?†When I learned of that statement, it seemed totally out of order. There had been two golf bags in the house, but he had not specified which one he wanted. Neither bag was collected by police. Moreover, it was winter in Colorado, Michigan, and Georgia, not exactly optimal golfing conditions. Why would a man whose daughter had just been murdered be wanting his golf clubs anyway? I wondered what else might have been in the bag that was so important that Ramsey would even think to ask about it.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 53

    Down a short hall was the boiler room, which had a chest freezer and an exposed ventilation duct leading to the street. At the rear of that room, a door led to the wine cellar. The door and its painted jamb and frame were removed by the police. Just outside the room, they found two partial sets of golf clubs belonging to John Ramsey. Inside the room was a large corrugated box with six partly used cans of interior paint and seven more gallon-size interior paint cans. Built into the floor was a safe. A greenish-blue tarp lay over it. A bicycle missing its front wheel was propped up in one corner beside some lumber and other construction material. Throughout the house the police had ripped out every toilet, looking for evidence in the plumbing traps.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 109 – 110

    JonBenét was born on August 6, 1990, in Atlanta. Beuf became her doctor when the Ramseys moved to Boulder in late 1991. On December 6, 1991, he treated JonBenét for a fever, cough, and wheezing. Over the next ten months, she had the usual colds and coughs of a toddler. By the time JonBenét was two and a half years old, she had developed a history of coughs accompanied by low-grade fever.
    In July 1993, Patsy Ramsey was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. It was just one month short of JonBenét’s third birthday. The child, who went to stay with her grandmother Nedra, regressed in her toilet training and eating habits. Suzanne Savage, a baby-sitter, began to help Nedra care for JonBenét.
    At three years and one month, JonBenét was brought to see the doctor. Her buttocks were chafed red from diarrhea, as was her vaginal area.
    Two months later, JonBenét was back in the doctor’s office with a cough and a stuffed nose. She was sleeping poorly, was grouchy from fatigue, and had bad breath. She appeared to have chronic sinusitis. At the end of 1993, JonBenét, at age three, was still drinking from a bottle, and Patsy and John were having problems weaning her.
    On October 5, 1994, when JonBenét showed up at the doctor’s office for a checkup, she had a scar on her left cheek. She’d been hit accidentally by a golf club when the family was in Charlevoix. A week later a plastic surgeon in Denver was consulted. There was no injury to her cheekbone, nothing to worry about. Beuf was told that she was getting along with her brothers and older sister. But she was wearing Pull-Ups at night because she sometimes wet the bed. That same day Patsy filled out a developmental questionnaire. She said there were no aspects of JonBenét’s behavior or sex education she needed to discuss. JonBenét was four years and three months old.
    At Alfalfa’s food market on May 8, 1995, JonBenét fell and landed on her nose. It was not broken. Seven and a half months later, she tripped and hit her head above her left eye. At the time, she had a stuffy nose and bad breath and was coughing.
    Almost a year later, in March 1996, JonBenét was coughing a lot, and two months later she bent the nail back on the fourth finger of her left hand in another fall. Though it was swollen and painful, there was no bruising.
    Three months before JonBenét’s death, on August 27, Patsy told Beuf that JonBenét was a good sleeper, wasn’t hard to get to bed, and was easily awakened in the morning. She wasn’t interested in the opposite sex, behaved modestly in public, and didn’t engage in sex play with her friends. She was, however, asking about sex roles and reproduction. She was not rude or afraid of either parent. She didn’t seem to be bossy with her brother, Burke, didn’t react with tantrums, and was active. She loved fruit and some vegetables. Patsy said she was delightful and doing very well. Burke had his annual checkup the same day
    In October, two months before her murder, JonBenét had a stuffy nose and bad breath. She was diagnosed with allergic rhinitis. On November 12, JonBenét was checked for the last time by Beuf. She had a runny nose and a cold sore and was sneezing. Three weeks later her eyesight was checked by Dr. Marilyn Dougherty. In early December, JonBenét missed a pageant appearance because she was sick, but she didn’t see Dr. Beuf.
    Dr. Beuf told a reporter covering the story that JonBenét had had an average number of physician visits for a child her age.
    The police now had to collate the medical data with other information before any conclusions could be drawn.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 334 – 336

    The police said that JonBenét’s head injury could have been caused by the flashlight they found on the Ramseys’ kitchen counter, although nothing had been found on the flashlight to tie it to the crime or the injury. There was nothing on the child’s scalp to suggest the pattern on the casing of the Maglite. Whatever had struck JonBenét on the head had left a rectangular hole in her scalp about the size of a dime. It could have been made by the joint that connects a golf club to its shaft. John Ramsey’s partial set of clubs had been discovered just paces away from where JonBenét’s body was found.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 660 – 661
     
  4. heymom

    heymom Member

    We've always seen the neck cord and the wrists being bound as part of the staging. But what if they weren't? What if that was part of the original episode? Then you have a different scenario entirely.
     
  5. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Sorry but no. The head blow came first. So did the manual strangulation.

    What this means is this: The initial attack consisted of both manual strangulation AND a head blow. That is pure rage. Something occurred that triggered a violent encounter.

    I believe that at some point, those involved in the staging thought JBR was already dead from the skull fracture, but they also knew about/saw the abrasions to the neck and needed a convenient explanation for the neck abrasions. Thus the garrote was born. As per Tom Clancy.

    I believe that the Ice man came into this and staged the garrote--not knowing he was actually strangling the last bit of life out of JBR. I think JBR's pulse was so slight at the time that everyone went into cover-your A mode.
     
  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    As ever a fount of information I've long forgotten. Thank you so much, cynic.

    This part caught my attention because recently I was reading some old threads here and the Judith Phillips photos were the topic.

    Since the following tabloid print of a Judith Phillips photo shows the RIGHT hand having a curve to the third finger of the right hand, I guess it's not related to this injuiry, but how many "finger" accidents did the child have?

    In fact, how many illnesses and accidents did the child have? These are just the ones in her medical records, after all. I know kids can be very clumsy, but it's just one more "coincidence" I'm now finding awfully suspicious.

    [​IMG]

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8098&highlight=Cookie&page=16

    This is from the same photo shoot:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thank you, fearless leader! Always appreciate your feedback. :winkaway:
     
  8. heymom

    heymom Member

    I am not sure I understand your scenario, Bob.
     
  9. Elle

    Elle Member

    I think Patsy Ramsey was exhausted from Christmas and was confronted with a soiled bed from JonBenét for the umpteenth time and went into a rage.
     
  10. Tez

    Tez Member

    RBBM (Red): I totally agree with you on this BobC. The note just screams that Patsy wrote it. All it needed was a neon sign saying, "Patsy wrote this note."

    RBBM (Purple): Again, I totally agree. Plus, fibers from both of their clothes were found on JonBenet, on the tape, or wrapped in the rope.

    RBBM (Green): Yes, it was a rage killing. I think that the perp grabbed her and choked her with her shirt, let her go, and then hit her from behind with a golf club. And yes, the question remains, what triggered the episode? Did JonBenet touch Burke's new toys and he got mad and just lost it?


    RBBM (Red): I agree with this totally.


    RBBM (Blue): "Ice man" fits JR to a "T." I actually believe he did check her pulse and either didn't feel it because it was so weak, or he felt it but knew that she was probably going to die anyway, so he strangled the last bit of life out of her. Then, the CYA mode was in full play.

    O/T: I am enjoying discussing this case again. Mr. Kolar really did an excellent job in writing his book.

    Thank you Cynic for quoting those parts of ST's book and also the quotes from PMPT. I am going to dig my ST book out and read it again. I wonder why he never mentioned the feces covered chocolates?

    KK, thank you for the excellent work you have done!
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  11. Karen

    Karen Member

    I feel like I'm invisible around here. :ghost:
     
  12. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Both of you, Tez and BobC are making sense here. I think this is a very logical scenario with a tussle whereby the little girl was slung around by her shirt collar and then the head blow. BobC, you make a good point about there being two personalities present in the staging..one caring and one cold...good point.

    I wonder if a staging (by two) isn't played out in the behavior witnessed the next morning. You have Patsy almost hysterical and cool, calm John. Also, it was noted that Patsy and John were distant that morning when one would believe that husband would be consoling his wife. I wonder. Was this a psychological give away? I mean, put yourself into this situation. Pretend that you and your husband or you and your wife had just covered an accident/murder by staging a kidnapping gone wrong complete with a ransom note. Might you avoid one another out of guilt or out of fear that your interaction might give away the whole ruse?
     
  13. Tez

    Tez Member

    Karen, I am sorry you feel invisible. I am trying to figure out an answer to your questions about the cord around her neck and hands. Personally, I think the cord around her arms/hands was just part of the staging to make it look like she was tied up. And as we know, it was the garotte tightening that killed her. Kolar brings out it was 90 minutes approx. from the head blow to her death from being garotted by whomever did it.

    HTH
     
  14. Elle

    Elle Member

    Who was the person who cleaned up after young JonBenét soiled her bed many times - her mother - Patsy Ramsey! Linda Hoffman Pugh stated the sheets were in the dryer many times when she arrived in the morning!

    Who would be the person to go into a rage because of always having to clean up after her young daughter, JonBenét? Her mother - Patsy Ramsey!

    This little girl was killed in an attack of rage by her mother!
    PATSY RAMSEY!
     
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! Not again! :blush:

    Sooooo sorry, Karen. As per requested at WS, I also started this same topic thread there. I've been dancing like crazy trying to keep up, and basically, I haven't done such a good job. I have about 50 posts I haven't even read yet, just skimmed, which is why I did manage to post about a couple of things I spotted.

    Please, have a sit down and a beer I stole from Moab: :toast:

    I will try to catch up this weekend, promise!
     
  16. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Heymom--I'm saying what Tez is saying. Something happened that night very quickly--something that made the killer lash out violently at that little girl. We may never know what that trigger was--but it could have been something as mundane as bed-wetting or just JBR throwing a tantrum'

    I am also with Tez in saying that I think JBR was clinging to life, heartbeat almost undetectable, when the second stager came in. Note that the ligatures on the arms are bright white, loose, with no pressure at all on the wrists. This is amateur stuff--it shows that the first stager couldn't even bring herself to tighten them. Contrast those to the garrote. The garrote is dark, beat up, and wrenched strongly around JBR's neck.

    So to me, it is almost certain that one stager started the staging, was doing a half-azzzed job, and someone with a "psychopathic coldness" came in and really made it look convincing.
     
  17. Tez

    Tez Member

    rbbm: Yes, yes, yes!!!!!
     
  18. Elle

    Elle Member

    No way! I'm reading all your excellent posts, Karen. You are very thorough!:yay: Now there's a good girl! Keep going!
     
  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    So glad your son's injury healed. I often marvel that parents get their children to adulthood at all sometimes.

    You know, Kolar has given us some other evidence that has us looking at Burke closer, sometimes in hints more than anything--like the "believed to be Burke's" pj bottoms on the floor in JB's room.

    But the bottom line is we really can't say who struck that blow to her head.

    So that's why I want to answer the question of where it happened: if it happened in her bedroom, or the kitchen, or basement, or Burke's room, or in the hallway...that would go a long way to determining who attacked the child with such a deadly accuracy, even if only in a childish rage or in an adult fury.

    How did they carry on? My guess: excellent pharmacology.
     
  20. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Good points about her clothing. I do wonder if she would have had bruising under her arms or from gripping them and her body weight dragging? She was a little thing, so maybe she wouldn't have had drag marks on her heels or feet. But that basement was such a mess. And I wonder why Burke would want to move her to the paint tray at all, if this was happening in the basement. Why not just bring the items to where she fell? Unless we're speculating that he was the one who staged her in the cellar room.

    Remember Kolar reported that Pastor Holverstock said when JR brought JB up he stated something like "He didn't mean to hurt her, he wrapped her in a blanket"? It was odd, to say the least.

    That is an interesting thought, about using the train tracks to poke her to "wake" her. Remember she had very similar marks on her leg in a summer photo taken of her earlier that year. The marks look the exact same to me. (You can see those in our case library if you missed some of those discussions.)
     
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