About that duct tape....

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yeah, you pretty much summed it up there.

    Another thing I noticed: those kidnappers sure were sticklers for things being done PROPERLY.


    Proper burials. Proper tape-cutting techniques.

    Sheesh, no wonder LE hasn't found the intruders in 16 years!
     
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    So it appears that someone who knew them seemed to think the Ramseys also had a quantity of that ligature cord around. No names of course but....

    Boy, John and Patsy could barely get into a tight squeeze when they didn't hit the gas and run that bus over the Whites.



    Absolutely...NO? MAYBE? OF COURSE I DID! THE INTRUDER USED IT!

    Remember the Bulk and Army store; it's coming up again.

    Notice in the following, John talks himself into a corner, clearly demonstrating a knowledge of cords, not to mention the cord which killed his daughter...and he suddenly remembers FLEET HAD SOME CORD!

    And John sees other victims in the crosswalk and goes straight for that gas pedal!

    And notice who answers the question about the sample cord being identical to that used in the Ramsey murder case.

    And so gingerly asking John questions you'd think they were afraid of him, they finally address the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM...that the Ramseys are the PRIME SUSPECTS...and what does John do?

    Oh yeah, poor Fleet....

    Maybe Fleet has been telling his own stories about the Ramseys.


    Smit and Kane finally grow a tiny pair and dance around the big questions with JR: remember the earlier question about the "Bulk and Army" store?

    And my PERSONAL favorite Ramsey lie mushrooms right out of all that pile of BS being shoveled in that room for all this time:

    Notice the stall after "we," changing the pronoun to "I" am telling nothing but the truth...then the qualifier "to the best of my ability"...meaning "except when I can't tell the truth."

    Nor will he vouch for Patsy. Good move, John. :rolling:
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  3. cynic

    cynic Member

    I have a roll of black duct tape that I purchased for a cycling related issue and as you say, it is black on one side, and grey/silver on the adhesive side, with a reinforcing cloth weave.

    [​IMG]

    I completely acknowledge that we may be seeing both sides in the crime scene picture with the blanket, but when I saw that the grey outline matched the black, I began to suspect that it is actually the overexposed shadow that we are seeing, rather than a portion of the tape.
    Have a look at the following and see what you think:

    I noticed that when you enlarge the picture, it appears that what everyone suspects is the grey tape has a “texture.” That texture looks to be the same as the blanket. Obviously that wouldn’t be case if we were comparing tape with the blanket, but would be the case if it was simply a shadow.

    [​IMG]

    In the next picture I’ve outlined the black side of the tape end in red and the nearby grey side of the tape. Notice how the shapes match. Again, this would be the case it we are dealing with a shadow. (I believe it has the arc shape because it has curled a bit.)

    [​IMG]

    The last picture shows the other half of the tape and what I believe to also be a long shadow. Although it is not quite as obvious, the red outlines match.

    [​IMG]

    I could be wrong, as well, but it seems to fit.
     
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well done. I see what you're seeing.

    I guess my problem is with the length of the area that is either tape or a long, rectangular shadow. I'm having trouble with that shadow. Notice the blanket lumped around the small "black" section you are labeling as the face of the tape--and it could be the face side curling back on the end, with that black edge facing the camera. How can the long, rectangular shape be a shadow from the small, black area we can see, when the blanket around that is not shaped like that?

    I see the weave you're referencing, as well, but I notice when I try to make enlargements from similar photos, which are often screen shots taken from online video or TV programs for the most part, various patterns will actually pick up in other areas. I'm thiinking of the carpet in the basement video Kolar shared: when trying to enlarge the train tracks on the floor, the squiggly pattern of the carpet distorted into the train track, so I couldn't get a sharp enlargement. Does that make sense?

    But that may not be the case here. I see the little "point" at the end of the rectangular shadow that matches the same "point" on the black area you circled as the black face of the tape.

    Also, duct tape doesn't usually lay out that easily, it's so sticky--as the Ramseys BOTH point out, amazingly enough. So it would seem unlikely it would lay out that evenly. It's all stuck together on the ends in the lab photo showing the "stains."

    So you may be right about this. I'll have to ponder the "shadow" angle a bit.
     
  5. cynic

    cynic Member

    My final, and hopefully, most convincing argument stems from the fact that the dimensions don’t add up if the grey that we are seeing is actually part of the tape as opposed to merely shadow. By my calculations that tape is definitely two inches wide by, no so definitely, :D five inches long.
    Regardless of the exact length, it is obvious from the picture below that the length does match the black portion of the tape that we see, but would be far too short to match the black and grey.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    You make a good case.

    Honestly, I had never even looked at the small peek-a-boo area you attribute to tape at all closely, so just thought that was the shadow, with the long, gray area being the actual tape.

    We've discussed this for how long? lol Even in the '98 interviews where that photo is pointed out to John, he mentions the "color" is wrong, so I think he also thought that was the tape?

    Very interesting.

    Do you have any explanation as to where that long, rectangular shadow is originating?
     
  7. cynic

    cynic Member

    There may have been a relatively low, portable floodlight in the room which cast a long shadow.
    I played around with a short piece of duct tape and low bright lighting. One of the shots I took, which I posted back in post #13 illustrates the effect.
    I can tell you that if the silver and grey in the crime scene pic is all tape, it is simply too long, there has to be another explanation.
     
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    And you just reminded me of something you and I once thought was a "mistake" Kolar made in his book.

    Remember this? Kolar: Foreign Faction; page 122

     
  9. cynic

    cynic Member

    I still think that's down to faulty transcription.
    There is a strong light source in that room.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I do remember the odd wiring and switch on that wall going to that kind of fluorescent lighting. Is that the actual fixture that was in there?

    I see now what you were demonstrating in #13. I'm not trying to be contrary, I swear I'm not, but the long shadow has me fooled mainly because the lump of blanket surrounding the "black duct tape" seems to make a mound which I imagine would block a light source from casting such a long shadow.

    Of course, shadows are things which can fool one, so I get your point.

    But now I'm asking myself if Kolar would make such a mistake. He seems to be a very careful, methodical man, so looking at the questions you've brought up, I have YET ANOTHER QUESTION TO ASK HIM....

    :tsmile:
     
  11. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Okay, going through old pics I found some you no doubt have, but maybe will help us here.

    I played with these years ago...though this may be a composite someone else made, can't remember now. We were looking for "dolls," I think.

    This is another viewpoint of the blanket, one where you can see the gown. I'm just putting the images I have here in case you need them or can match up the blanket from the other angle? I'll keep trying myself.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I found a clearer picture and in working with it, I'm seeing something different now. Do you think the darker parts aren't tape at all, but that's the shadow? I see a sliver of shadow under the "long rectangular" area, as if that is from the edge of tape, as well as a couple of black "dots" at the left "end" of that gray area which seem to be shadow from the "lift" or curl of the edge?

    Also, the "curled end" of that very dark section seems to me perhaps to correspond with a barely visible "lift" in the blanket, which then looks like it could be shadow from the blanket?

    I do find the lower "gray" area very suspicious. That does look like tape to me, now that you've pointed it out. It would have to be another piece, wouldn't it; too long, as you indicated, to be one long piece, if the longer gray area is tape, as well?

    I made a negative which always gives me another perspective.

    See what you think--though it's hit or miss with my image skills, as you know.

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    Getting back to your duct tape, cynic and KK. My first thought on seeing these "shadow" photos was thinking it was not a shadow but grey residue from where the tape had been pulled back.
     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    That's an interesting idea, Elle. Another perspective is always welcome, as I've worked with these for hours now and all I've done is end up back where I started. :rotfl:
     
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Okay, here is my last effort, as I'm out of ideas.

    Comparing the two photos of the blanket, one with the long "tape" rectangle and one with the gown, I'm not seeing any long gray rectangle at ALL in the blanket/gown one.

    Of course, the area in question is mostly OUT OF THE PICTURE on the blanket/gown photo...sheesh, it's hard to catch a break with the crap we have to work with....

    But here I've compared the two pics as best I can. The photos show the blanket from two angles and planes, so it's not a perfect match, just another perspective, though. I'm not sure it even helps.

    The upshot is the blanket/gown photo would seem to support your theory, as I see no "long tape" or shadow in the area of the blanket folds where it appears in the pic we started with.

    Again, though, I'm still not 100% because that area could be a fold of cloth which then runs TO the area where the other photo shows the rectangular image. So it could be out of the shot?

    So as I said, I'm out of ideas.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Elle

    Elle Member

    Actually, my first thought when I read the word "shadow" KK, was it had too sharp an edge to be a shadow. jmo
     
  17. Elle

    Elle Member

    I'm afraid I don't see a shadow of anything here, KK. It's too sharp at the edges. Looks more like gray tape to me.What is supposed to be causing this shadow being talked about. Have I missed any posts? Sorry?

    DeeDee having been an art teacher will know more about this than I do. I just remember when taking lessons that shadows never seemed to have a sharp edge. Depends on the subject, I suppose, but the one you are discussing with cynic appears to have a sharp ege.

    Cast Shadows are mentioned here http://painting.about.com/cs/paintingknowhow/a/shadows.htm plus shadows with a sharp edge. I never painted anything with shadows with sharp edges.

    It's the darker type of shadow, because it’s created by the light source being blocked. It has quite a sharp or more definite edge to it. But it’s important to remember that a cast shadow isn't a solid thing that’s the same throughout: the further it is from the object that’s creating it, the lighter it gets and the softer or less defined its edge becomes.

    So ...what was causing this shadow? I'm at a loss here. KK!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2013
  18. otg

    otg Member

    Far be it from me to add much to the extensive and painstaking research you guys have done to this in trying to figure it out. But I haven’t seen mention of this, so I don’t know if it will be any help or not. Just thought I would point out that the light source in the room seems to be sitting on top of something (a shelf of some sort, maybe?). It looks like it caught the edge of it casting a diffused shadow on the floor shown within the green lines in the photo below. The diffusion effect is explained here on the site that Elle linked. (Thank you, Elle. This explains it better than I could have, and the illustrations help a lot too.)

    [​IMG]

    I added the bolder red lines to show the direction of the light source by running it out from obvious points in the blanket shadows with the corresponding peaks or valleys in the blanket itself (indicated with the short, thin, red lines). Hope this makes sense.
     
  19. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Some shadows DO have a harder edge. It depends on the light source producing them,
     
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