In which room do you think the head blow occurred?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Learnin, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Bingo! That's it, Karen. Thanks for finding this. This is significant, IMO, and warrants much discussion especially when you consider JBR was standing in a room with lint and dust in it shortly before being hit over the head. What does everyone think about the presents that were in that basement laundry room? I wasn't aware of that or had forgotten.

    So, someone took a picture of JBR in the laundry room and Haney and and DeMuth think it's significant. Patsy denies taking the picture. The significant thing about this questioning is that the interrogators are trying to determine if this was a hangout for the children especially the boys.

    Boy, I wish I knew what kind of pose JBR was in when this picture was taken.
    Notice that Haney says: "If she was doing something real cutesy or something...." I think it's significant because, if Patsy didn't take it, who did and why was the picture down in the laundry room? It must've been taken on one of those instant polaroid cameras at the time. One wonders if it wasn't found underneath the washer.

    1. Presents in the laundry room.
    2. Someone taking a picture of JBR in the laundry room and not Patsy.
    3. Dust and lint on JBR's feet
    4. Golf clubs nearby.
    5. Possible playing area for the kids since questioning raises that possibility.
     
  2. Karen

    Karen Member


    What gets me about this is they didn't show Patsy the picture. I wonder why Kolar didn't mention this?
     
  3. heymom

    heymom Member

    I can't figure out from DeMuth's questions, if they found a photo of JonBenet in the laundry room, but the photo had been taken somewhere else, or if they found a photo in the laundry room that had also been taken IN the laundry room. It's not clear from the way he worded it. I'm sure there were myriad photos of JonBenet all over that house, since she was the "star of the show," and having one turn up in the laundry room wouldn't necessarily raise my suspicions. It would be a little strange to have her doing a pageant pose or whatever, down in the basement laundry room, but maybe Patsy had a camera on hand often to take those "cutesy" photos.

    I'm thinking if Kolar didn't make a big deal out of this, that the investigation didn't believe it was relevant either.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2012
  4. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Well, I was confused too about where the picture was taken but, at the end of the questioning, they specifically ask if Patsy would run and get the camera if Jonbenet was hamming it up. Of course she would if it were up in the regular part of the house. And Patsy asks if they mean would she take a picture down in the basement laundry and she replies, "no".

    I'm sure, then, that the picture was taken in the basement laundry and it was found in the laundry. As you say, there were probably pictures of Jonbenet all over the house so it would be a total waste of time for DeMuth and Haney to pursue this line of questioning unless it was pertinent to the case.

    There is another thing about this line of questioning that is pertinent for me.
    DeMuth was always playing devils advocate against the Boulder police. He was always trying to find that intruder. And I notice, whenever there was questioning concerning evidence which was suspicious of family involvement, he would intervene and try to clarify things which he did in this case.

    Now, think about the line of questioning for a moment. DeMuth and Haney are trying to establish if boys would play down in that room....they even ask if John would go down there to the laundry room...What else would they be trying to establish other than if some hanky panky might be happening down in that room?

    At any rate, it's like the pineapple line of questioning, no? Investigators have a piece of information that they don't really reveal and they try to determine, from the person, if it has an innocent explanation.

    Why didn't Kolar mention it? Well, since Kolar's theory seems to include BR, maybe this picture is very pertinent to his theory...maybe this was brought up in the Grand Jury testimony and he can't bring it up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2012
  5. Elle

    Elle Member

    You're welcome, Learnin. It's good Chief Kolar has all of us on the move again. Just hope he will be safe. John Ramsey is keeping very quiet about Kolar's book stirring everyone into action. It would be good to know what really happened to little JonBenét, and then we can let it all go.
     
  6. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Okay, I re-read the interview about the laundry room again. Now, it all makes sense. In the first part of the laundry room/pic questioning, Haney and DeMuth try to establish if there would, normally, be pics of JonBenet in the laundry room basement. Would Patsy think this would be out of place. Patsy says it would be out of the ordinary...wrapping paper, stuff but not pictures. And, then, Patsy asks: "Did someone find some down there?"
    It's interesting to see that DeMuth answers: "If there were, would it be....."
    This type of answer is always used when a piece of evidence is pertinent to the investigation...the detectives not wanting to give too much away.

    After establishing that Patsy would not keep pictures in the laundry room basement (which means someone else took it down there), then, the questioners establish if Patsy took a picture of JonBenet while she was in the laundry room. She didn't.

    So:

    1. CSI found a picture of Jonbenet in the basement laundry room.

    2. The picture was taken in the laundry room.

    3. Patsy did not know the picture was down there and indicated it would
    be strange for it to be down there.

    4. DeMuth and Haney are trying to ascertain who might've taken the picture...John, Burke, John Andrew?

    5. Now. I propose that, if there was a picture of JonBenet simply standing in the laundry room and that picture was a simple pose of JonBenet smiling and standing, then, THERE WOULD BE NO REASON TO ASK ANY QUESTIONS.
    I propose that the investigators are interested because the picture was "hidden"....it was found under a washer or dryer or up on a ledge, etc. And I propose that the picture displayed a suggestive or flirting type of pose or the investigators would, once again, not think it important enough to grill Patsy about who frequented this room.

    6. Since Patsy never took any pictures of JonBenet down there while she was "hamming" it up, then, one can understand the interest. Someone had to take the picture of JBR in a darned laundry room and who would have any interest in doing such a thing if not her mother?

    Thoughts? Is this interesting (with the golf clubs being in the basement, presents being in the laundry room, dust and lint on JBRs bare feet....) or am I just getting worked up for nothing?
     
  7. otg

    otg Member

    I remember many discussions about this in the past. It's a shame Kolar doesn't mention anything about it, but he did say that there were things he couldn't reveal -- particularly things that were presented as evidence in the GJ proceedings.

    Because of the confusion in the wording, and because of the way it was discussed in the interview, my feeling about this is that the picture (or pictures) was taken of JonBenet doing something down in the basement that made the investigators want to know who took them.

    Notice it's something they seem to keep close to the chest in that they don't show it to Patsy, and they don't even give a detailed description of what exactly is shown in the picture.

    Wish we knew more. Maybe we can add that to the list of things to ask Kolar when Tricia gets him back for another interview. :yes:
     
  8. otg

    otg Member

    Learnin, I wrote my response before I saw you had gone into more detail on your suspicion. You nailed it as far as why it is suspicious, and why I agree with you.
     
  9. Elle

    Elle Member

    These analysis are believable, Learnin. It's obvious someone who enjoyed being with JonBenét may well have taken a photo of JonBenét minus some clothing. Maybe this is why the Investigative team are not giving anything away.

    Since I received my "Foreign Faction" just recently, I have a long way to go.
     
  10. Elle

    Elle Member

    I think it has to relate to little JonBenét being photographed maybe in the nude or something like that! (?). It's so annoying that Kolar can't come right out and say what he wants to say. Good Grief, after all the lies the Ramseys spun. Isn't it time for the truth to come out? To stand up and be counted?
     
  11. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    I think this was mentioned on another thread(?) but I'll quote it here, from Kolar's book:

    "There had been another discrepancy in one of Patsy Ramsey's law enforcement interviews that caught my attention. Investigators had noted that the wrapping paper on a pair of Christmas presents observed in the Wine Cellar at the time of the discovery of JonBenet's body had been torn. She told the detectives that she couldn't remember what was contained in the presents, and hence the need to tear back part of the paper. I learned, over the course of my inquiry, that it was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this." Kolar, p. 339.

    And here's a thought - BR wouldn't necessarily need a stool or suitcase (lol) to reach the latch, which was merely a piece of wood at the top of the door. He could've used a long tool - like say, a golf club - to reach up and push it open. The club could then be used to catch the latch and pull it closed again.

    Learnin and Karen - Fascinating about the laundry room photograph(s)! I wonder if that was the lure to get JBR down to the basement. She was used to being photographed, so maybe BR used photography as a way to get her into a vulnerable position for other things.

    And from Elle's post (thanks, Elle, for the links/quotes!). These comments from Wilcox jumped out at me:
    By the way, how big was that floor safe? Was it big enough to stuff a small body into?
     
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I must be misunderstanding the questions and answers in this section, as it seems very clear to me that LE was asking if there were pictures OF JonBenet FOUND in the laundry room, why or who blah blah.

    Saying it another way: Patsy is asked if there were a picture of JB FOUND in the laundry room, not TAKEN in the laundry room, who might have left it there.

    Here's the exchange again:

     
  13. Learnin

    Learnin Member



    But, if you read all the way down, koldkase, you will find this exchange:

    1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall
    2 taking a photo of her down there?

    3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
    4 THOMAS HANEY: If she was doing
    5 something really cutesy or something, would you
    6 maybe run and get the camera, take one of her?


    7 PATSY RAMSEY: Of her in the
    8 laundry room?
    9 THOMAS HANEY: Uh-hum.
    10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.


    Notice that Haney asks if Patsy found JBR doing something real cutesy, would she run and get the camera and take a pic of her. PATSY ASKS: "Of her in the laundry room?" Haney affirms this and then Patsy says: NO.

    In other words, the questioners start out by asking if it would be normal for pictures of JBR to be located in the basement laundry room. When they establish that it would not be normal for pictures to be down there, they then ask Patsy if she would take pics of JBR down in the laundry room if she was doing something cutesy...would Patsy go up and fetch the camera and take a pic. Patsy asks if they mean taking a pic down in the laundry room and Haney says yes.

    This exchange tells me that this pic is pertinent to the matter and they are simply trying to get some truthful answers from Patsy without alerting her to what they have or without Patsy becoming defensive so she can beat around the bush about her answers.
     
  14. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    The one thing that this basement laundry photograph tips me off to is that there was a little bit of "playing" going on down in that basement laundry room if you know what I mean. I'm not saying it proves JBR was bludgeoned down there but it is pertinent, IMO, that there were presents down there, golf clubs all over the place and a hidden picture of JBR which must've been just a little suggestive.
     
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    Well, maybe. It's ambiguous at best, to me, anyway. DeMuth flatly says no, Haney says uh-hum.

    So a possible "cutesy" photo, which may have been taken of her in the laundry room and found in the laundry room, can be interpreted many ways.

    I don't want to work a lot into questions about a picture which may or may not be related to the crime. If it was child pornography, I would like to believe more would have been made of it by LE, hopefully in the form of an arrest.

    But of course, the Ramseys could get away with pretty much anything in Boulder, so maybe not.

    I just don't want to give too much weight to something which is so conflicting on its face. Remember DeMuth was a lawyer with the BDA: he couldn't "lie" to a suspect himself, or he would have been breaking the Code of Conduct set forth in the Colorado Bar. So why did he say no, it wasn't a photo of her in the laundry room?

    Even if it was a photo of JB, being "cutesy," found in the laundry room in the basement, taken by Burke...unless she is wearing the clothes she was found dead in, or at least those she wore to the White's party, I don't know what that would prove, unless it was at least bordering on child porn.

    JB was well trained in posing "cutesy," after all.
     
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, JB posing suggestively would hardly be unique. She did win trophies for it.

    But there is that suitcase with the duvet with JAR's semen on it and the Dr. Seuss book in it. Smit once said the dark fibers found on JB came from the duvet in that suitcase. Team Ramsey has guarded the title of that book like gold in Fort Knox, as well.

    Another question I want to ask Kolar.
     
  17. heymom

    heymom Member

    That first question 1 "So you don't recall taking a photo of her down there?" is still worded in a way that it could also mean, "You don't remember transporting a photograph of JonBenet down to the basement laundry room?" Do you see what I mean? The whole exchange is very muddled, maybe because the detectives are purposely trying to get some information without giving anything away. It is only at the end that they finally SEEM to ask, "Did you ever TAKE a photograph of JonBenet doing something 'cutesy' while in the basement laundry room?"
     
  18. Elle

    Elle Member

    This photo was in the wine cellar - from the ACandyrose site I posted on this thread. This was what came up in my search. The hidden safe is seen here. Such a small trapdoor. You can hardly see the red arrow pointing to the small door in the floor. It's right in front of JB's photo. The photo enlarges when clicked on at the site, but not in this FFJ post (?). Maybe it was just copied on to this basement photo. I wonder why (?). Beside all the paint pots! Weird!

    http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-basement.htm
     

    Attached Files:

  19. heymom

    heymom Member

    Smit also said JonBenet had a stun-gun used on her, and that the intruder had snuck into the house using the basement window. Anything Smit said is ... bull smit.
     
  20. Elle

    Elle Member

    photo JonBenét enlarged. Couldn't enter it into my above post.

    [​IMG]hoto enlarged
     
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