DNA revisited in light of James Kolar’s book

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by cynic, Jul 22, 2012.

  1. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    I'm with you Heymom. I am really scared that our criminal justice system will grind to a halt if trace DNA, half a nanogram, can exonerate people who have a dead child in a locked home/staged crime scene. The implications are mind-boggling.
     
  2. cynic

    cynic Member

    He doesn't tell us, but there was that info from the lab report held up by Erin Moriarty. That report indicates blood.

    LAB CLASS XX???-2136(?)-4153(?) SECTION: DNA TESTING
    AGENCY(?) NAME – CD0878136 – F2 ACBLDER(?)
    EXTRACTED(?) BY: blacked out EXTRACTION DATE: 123196(?)
    ABSTRACT(X) AFA(?) ?/? ???
    RAMSEY, PATSY W/F
    RAMSEY, JOHN W/M
    RAMSEY, JONBENET W/F

    Two lines BLACKED OUT
    DATE COMPLETED/JANUARY 13, 1997
    EXTRACT(?) DESCRIPTION
    #5A,5B# (?) Bloodstains from shirt
    #7 Bloodstains from panties
    #14B Bloodstain ????? from JonBenet Ramsey
    #14J DNA? Or Swab? with Saliva????
    #14L, #14M Right and Left hand fingernails from JonBenet Ramsey
    #15A, #15B Samples from tape
    Bloodstains from white blanket
    #17A, #17C Bloodstains from nightgown??
    #13A, #13B Semen ??? stain from black blanket
    Bloodstain Standard from John Andrew Ramsey

    LABORATORY REPORT
    BB AB BB AA AC 24,26
    ??????? Section Testing WB
    BB AB BB AA AC 24,26
    WB WB
    BB AB BB AA AC 24,26
    WA WB WB W18

    THE DNA PROFILES DEVELOPED FROM EXHIBITS #5A, 5B, AND 17C MATCHED THE PROFILE FROM JONBENET RAMSEY.

    FED FROM EXHIBITS #7, 14L AND 14M REVEALED A MIX- COMPONENT MATCHED JONBENET RAMSEY. IF THE MINOR
    5 #7, 14L AND 14M WERE CONTRIBUTED BY A SINGLE
    JOHN ANDREW RAMSEY, MELINDA RAMSEY, JOHN B. RAMSEY, JEFF
    RAMSEY
    EXCLUDED AS A SOURCE OF THE DNA ANALYZED.
     
  3. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Bump. Having almost finished my book, and having looked through this DNA thread, I am correct in stating that the longjohn TDNA (you know the stuff that Lacy said got the Rams off the hook) had even less markers than the infamous panty DNA, no?????

    Why isn't the media picking up on this big time? I was always under the impression that the longjohn TDNA had a complete set of markers. This would have, definitely, made the panty DNA more relevant.

    Yet, I aways wondered how that touch DNA, on the longjohns, could have been such a pristine sample (having been collected years after the crime) while the panty DNA (collected the day after) was so degraded? This makes more sense. If Kolar's book only contained this one bit of new information, then, it would have been worth it.

    This dam_ _d DNA is worthless.
     
  4. heymom

    heymom Member

    The DNA was always a red herring, to give the Ramseys a hand with their effort to hide what happened that night. The DAs know there was never an intruder. I'm sure many of the BPD also know that. Probably the grand jury knows it too, and a plethora of others. But every time something about that night comes up again, you'll notice that the DNA evidence is also thrown out as if it means something. Like the Wizard of Oz, behind his curtain, we're supposed to just accept it as fact and GO AWAY!
     
  5. heymom

    heymom Member

    Mary Lacy HIRED Kolar to do the job that he carried out, and when she didn't like his conclusions, summarily fired him. "Wrong result, James! You didn't find the foreign faction, so you're fired!"

    :rant: :mad: :hopmad:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2012
  6. heymom

    heymom Member

    Bob....

    What criminal justice system? We can see that there will be no justice for JonBenet, she will forever remain a victim, killed by one in her own family, or perhaps one with the help of another.

    I don't know exactly why or how the Ramseys got away with this, but they did, and many of us are incredulous and horrified that our supposedly "blind justice" can actually be bought and paid for, if you have enough money and the right connections.
     
  7. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I notice that BR is not listed as among those excluded. Is it because he was never tested? Because he is not ALLOWED to be named? Or is he in the "netherworld" of the blacked out parts.
     
  8. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    According to the Ramsey DNA Lab Report we have, Burke Ramsey was tested against the partial, degraded, minor component DNA mixed with JonBenet's DNA.

    This lab report is limited in that it does not detail all the DNA findings in the Ramsey case. However, it does give us a window on understanding the partial DNA and "touch DNA" found in this case.

    "IFTHE MINOR COMPONENTS FROM EXHIBITS #7, 14L AND 14M WERE CONTRIBUTED BY A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL, JOHN ANDREW RAMSEY, MELINDA RAMSEY, JOHN B. RAMSEY, PATRICIA RAMSEY, BURKE RAMSEY, JEFF RAMSEY, FLEET WHITE, PRISCILLA WHITE, AND MARVIN PUGH WOULD BE EXCLUDED AS A SOURCE OF THE DNA ANALYZED."

    What IDIs, Ramsey apologists and the RST don't ever want anyone to notice is the very big IF in this DNA lab report.

    IF the three DNA components mentioned were contributed by a single individual, then the following people are excluded ...

    That shows the contaminate possibly present in the DNA samples. Even the official lab report cannot say with certainty the DNA mixtures are from a single individual. This DNA was a minor component mixed with JonBenet's DNA as the major component.

    The above individuals were tested against this partial, degraded DNA, but since there were not enough DNA markers (12-13) to determine if it was one individual or a composite of several, the test results were stated with the very important qualifier IF.

    Now we find out Lacy's "touch DNA" results included SIX different individuals, not one. More DNA contaminate. We are surrounded by it. Everyone has partial DNA contaminate on their skin and clothing. It's only when a fresh, undegraded and full complement of 12-13 markers is present can DNA labs determine a separate individual was present.


    This lab report is found in the FFJ Ramsey Case Library:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9867
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Karen

    Karen Member

    Second paragraph, DNA from sperm fractions? What sperm fractions? If it's from the blanket in the suitcase they knew that was from JAR. This DNA could not be analyzed?

    There was a lot more blood than we thought. Did all of that come from JB's hymen? On the barbie nightgown and white blanket??
     
  10. heymom

    heymom Member

    Would the head blow have slowed her digestion processes?
     
  11. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    A coma might, but it wouldn't have made much difference to the case or timeline, really. She ate the pineapple about 2 hrs before death, most likely shortly after arriving home, and the head bash and strangulation came relatively close together. Rigor mortis tells us she had been dead around 12 hours when she was found. So the timeline of death between 11 pm and 1 am is about right anyway.
    While the head bash alone might have taken up to an hour to kill her WITHOUT the strangulation, she may have become comatose right after it. Certainly, she was rendered unconscious, which is why the strangulation showed no evidence of struggle. The ligature furrows were circumferential, little sign of movement. The tape on her mouth showed no evidence of struggle against it. Her lip prints were perfect.
    The rate of digestion varies from person to person according to individual metabolism and according to what was eaten, to be sure, but not so much that it isn't subject to some sort of standard. Two FACTS to remember. Foods do not "leap frog" over each other in the digestive tract. Last eaten = last digested. And digestion stops at death. Like all metabolic processes.
     
  12. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    The sperm fractions were from the black blanket in the suitcase. At the point in time this report was made, they didn't already KNOW the sperm fractions were from JAR. This report was from early in the case, so I would assume it is actually where it was revealed that JAR was the donor of the sperm fractions. The sperm fractions were compared to DNA in a blood sample drawn from JAR and found to be a match.

    To answer your question about the blood ... no, it did not come from JonBenet's hymen.

    From the lab report:

    BLOODSTAINS FROM SHIRT
    BLOODSTAINS FROM PANTIES
    BLOODSTAIN STANDARD FROM JONBENET RAMSEY
    SWAB WITH SALIVA
    RIGHT AND LEFT HAND FINGERNAILS FROM JONBENET RAMSEY
    SAMPLES FROM TAPE
    BLOODSTAIN FROM WHITE BLANKET
    BLOODSTAINS FROM NIGHTGOWN
    SEMEN STAINS FROM BLACK BLANKET
    BLOODSTAIN STANDARD FROM JOHN ANDREW RAMSEY

    A "bloodstain standard" is a blood sample drawn from a person to compare with the other items collected as evidence.

    So we have:

    Bloodstains from shirt
    Bloodstains from panties


    Bloodstain STANDARD from JonBenet Ramsey

    Swab with saliva (JonBenet)
    Right & left hand fingernails (scraping) (JonBenet)
    Samples (DNA) from tape (JonBenet)

    Bloodstain from white blanket
    Bloodstains from nightgown


    Semen stains from black blanket
    Bloodstain standard from John Andrew Ramsey

    (There are more entries below this on the report, but that is all that is able to be seen on the screen capture.)

    According to this lab report, there were four different areas where samples of blood were found and analyzed:

    shirt
    panties
    white blanket
    nightgown



    These samples could have been as tiny as a miniscule drop or larger. "Bloodstain" does not literally mean a huge bloodstain but is lab lingo for the sample prepared for analysis.
     
  13. Karen

    Karen Member

    Ahhhh, thank you Cherokee. I'm still curious where the blood on the nightgown and blanket came from though. Even if just a speck.
     
  14. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    You're welcome.

    I suppose it's possible the small amount of blood in JonBenet's panties also leaked through to the blanket and nightgown since the blanket was wrapped around the lower half of her body, and the nightgown was inside the blanket, but obviously, that's only conjecture.

    I also wonder about the blood found on JonBenet's shirt. Was it a trace drop from when she was cleaned up? Were the blood samples on the blanket and nightgown from the paintbrush that was used in an effort to disguise previous sexual abuse and not caught in the clean up effort that followed?

    There is still much we don't know.
     
  15. Karen

    Karen Member

    I thought about that too but there was no blood on the longjohns as far as we know and in order for it to get to the blanket it would have had to go through the panties and longjohns both. I'm very curous about this extra blood, not from the hymen. How much and from where? I suppose we'll never know now.
     
  16. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    That's true about the longjohns, but maybe a tiny amount of blood seeped through to the blanket/nightgown AFTER the over-sized panties were put on JonBenet but BEFORE the longjohns were once again put on her feet and pulled up over legs.

    It would have taken some time and effort to undress and redress a recently deceased JonBenet because her muscles were completely relaxed in a condition known as "primary flaccidity" that occurs at the moment of death. It's where we get the phrase and meaning of "dead weight."

    http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

    Later, rigor mortis begins within two to six hours of death, starting with the eyelids, neck, and jaw. Interestingly, that's why people through the ages made sure to close the eyelids of the deceased and keep them closed with coins, because the eyelids were the first part of the body to stiffen into rigor mortis.
     
  17. heymom

    heymom Member

    Blood on JonBenet

    It just occurred to me that when my son fractured his skull, he bled from his ear on that side. Since JonBenet was hit so hard, I would imagine that she might have also bled from one or both of her ears. Was there any blood found in her hair to suggest that she had? Or would there be a medical reason why she would not have also bled from her ear(s)?
     
  18. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    The autopsy noted no blood in her hair or in her ear. But it does note "tan mucus" on her cheek, sleeve and I believe nostrils. I feel this may indicate that at some point, there was blood in her nose and/or mouth. While the coroner noted evidence of WIPED blood from her thighs and pubic area, he made no such observations anywhere else. Had JB lived longer, she may very well have bled from her ears, nose, and mouth in more significant amounts.
     
  19. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I guess this goes under a DNA thread. I just finished watching a 48 hours murder mystery. A son, with big gambling debt, was convicted of killing his parents in order to get his inheritance.

    Some of the evidence was interesting. First of all, detectives noticed a trail of bloody footprints through the crime scene. They, immediately, thought this was staging because no half sane criminal would leave 20 perfect bloody imprints of his shoes across a murder scene. Since they knew the killer was trying to throw police, THEY BECAME INTERESTED IN FAMILY MEMBERS and could rule all out except this one son.

    Secondly. After collecting other evidence which all but proved the guilt of the son, the defense used foreign dna to try and get the son off the hook.
    It seems that the blood, from the parents taken from the floor, was tested, an UNKNOWN DNA was mingled with the blood sample. This, the defense argued, was proof that someone other than the son had killed the parents.
    Thankfully, the jury wasn't swayed by this.

    Trace DNA is all over the place.
     
  20. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks for this post, Learnin.

    That true-crime drama emphasized what we've been staying all along, and you put so eloquently:


    Trace DNA is all over the place.


    It's frustrating for the Ramseys and their apologists to deny it and try to parade the contaminent DNA around as if it actually belongs to a bonafide suspect, but we know the truth.

    As I've said many times, the Ramseys got lucky when the partial, degraded contaminent DNA was found in the unwashed pair of over-sized panties that had been put on JonBenet during the redressing.

    If you've ever seen a TV special about the overwhelming amount of germs, bacteria and DNA residue that is all around us in our homes and on ourselves, it's almost enough to make your skin crawl! We think we have clean houses, but under the microscope, it's a different story.

    Patsy Ramsey claimed she couldn't remember the last time JonBenet had a bath. We've seen from photos the mess in the Ramsey house and basement. JonBenet was around many people for several days, including Christmas Day, and those people were around many others. The Christmas Holidays are packed with shopping and crowds and get-togethers. There's the opening of presents and new toys that have been touched by other shoppers, stock people and manufacturing company. For that reason, when JonBenet was killed:


    Trace DNA was all over the place.


    As Dr. Henry Lee famously said, "This is not a DNA case ...," but the Ramseys are desperate to cling to anything that will make them look innocent.
     
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