Arms in rigor: Warning! Autopsy photos!

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Dec 1, 2010.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    JoeJame, I know what you mean. Realizing that the ideals we've been taught to believe in and which we try to live up to are really myths in reality is a hard lesson. Feels like I've been duped by the very institutions upon which I built my belief and value systems.

    That kind of leaves us with the feeling we're drifting in open sea without a rudder.

    Right now, I'm just floating, observing the skies and life and changing seas around me. The world will do what it will do. So must I.
     
  2. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thank you, KK. Like yourself, I'm full of questions too, KK, when it's something I'm deeply involved in. My husband tells me I analyze everything! It would be a strange world if we agreed with everyone "all of the time." I'm in touch with Delmar's nephew, and it's nice to have someone to talk to who knew him well. Like all the rest of us Delmar was keen to find out all he could, and more! Who knows (?) - maybe Delmar has had a discussion with llttle JonBenét herself and now knows the full story. :)
     
  3. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Excellent, DeeDee. I think you've more than proven the body was placed on the back shortly after death and remained there until found.
     
  4. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    kk,

    1. I don't know how anyone, who has more than just a passing knowledge about this case, can let it go completely because it involved a precious little child; because of the injustice involved; because of the parents who thought more of protecting their hide than assisting law enforcement; because of the mysteries of the case (where was she killed, why was she killed, etc.etc.)

    2. I think it never came to justice because of a DA's office who did not want to take on the powerful attorneys team Ramsey was able to put together and; because Lou Smit was able to introduce enough doubt in the minds of those who were charged with seeing justice done.

    But I'm perplexed as to why FW has not told his side of the story. Obviously, FW didn't think justice was being served but, other than demanding a special prosecutor, has remained silent. This, more than any other thing, makes me wonder if something more sinister is involved. Is he simply afraid of facing a lawsuit or is he afraid of something worse? It seems to me that he couldn't be sued for stating his reactions to what he witnessed and by stating the things and behavior he did witness...
     
  5. Elle

    Elle Member

    I am perplexed with Fleet White too, Learnin! Why hasn't he opened his mouth?
     
  6. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    We'll never know. But with JR still around and LW still on the case as the R defense lawyer, a lawsuit is a big reason why. But I also think that he may be concerned that somehow they'd try to (once again) finger HIM for it. He did touch the tape and as he also searched the basement, his prints are all over it. He touched the window glass and the suitcase, too.
    Now, I don't think they'd find his prints on the note and there is no DNA linking him to the body or the crime scene, but I am sure LW would find a way. At the very least, it'd cost him a fortune to defend himself and likely ruin his (and his family's) life again.
    The other thing is that he may very well believe one of the Rs killed JB and they covered it up but he can't PROVE it. If he stated anything linking the Rs to the murder, he'd get hit with a defamation lawsuit unless he could PROVE it.
     
  7. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thanks DeeDee for your input. You're probably right!
     
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I agree with you about us not being able to let it go.

    Also, I think you're right about the DA not wanting to take the case to trial. But I think Lou Smit was a means to an end when Hunter hired him AND other members of Team Ramsey, we later found out, to deliberately subvert the prosecution from the start. I think Hunter needed to find "intruder evidence" rather than use the damning evidence against the Ramseys to take the case to trial. I have ideas about why he went to such lengths as to obstruct the investigation by refusing common subpoenas for critical evidence, etc. But you know all that, so I won't repeat.

    As for Fleet White's zipped lips, I agree with DeeDee, but I think one huge factor also was that initially White believed the case would be solved by LE. Most of us did, after all. When that didn't happen, it still took years to realize it never would. What a huge burden to experience what the Whites have, I can only imagine. Being "responsible" to the point of speaking out against people with whom you were so close, when the very professionals who are supposed to be doing their duty to solve the case through the system have deliberately buried it, is probably too much in monster of a public case such as this.

    And it only got worse for the Whites, remember. There are still people so desperate to blame anyone but the Ramseys they still attack the Whites, completely ignoring the facts about the bad character of those who have spent considerable time and energy trying to ruin the Whites forever--led by Team Ramsey, with JR still banging that malicious libel drum as recently as last year to the media.

    Personally, I think that the Whites have accepted that JonBenet is dead and nothing will change that. Maybe they even believe it was Burke, and so have found a way to forgive and move on, since he was a child they also knew and loved.

    Also, remember that the Whites were fully aware and angry at Alex Hunter for what he did to them. When you lose faith in the justice system because you've seen a man like Hunter, with such a serious charge of duty, abuse his power so personally as to deliberately harm innocent bystanders, where do you go for justice after that? The governor? Right. Remember where that went.

    Then to have someone as unsavory, incompetent, and seamy as Darnay Hoffman pull you into a law suit on behalf of someone you don't even know, not to mention being jailed for 30 days at Thanksgiving for refusing to answer a subpoena in yet another bogus trial with trumped up charges Hunter and Team Ramsey promoted against someone ELSE you don't know...the Whites have been really put through it.

    I think the Whites realized long ago they were fighting a losing war. So maybe they cut their losses and put their faith in Other Hands.

    And why not? Alex Hunter has paid a thousand fold for his corrupt soul.
     
  9. Elle

    Elle Member

    I guess I can now let the Fleet White query blow away in the wind KK, fully understanding why! Can I get away with saying because of all the sob's Ramsey connections?
     
  10. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, that's the nut of it all, really.

    I've been doing a little research on something I never knew about before, not in any cogent way, at least, but now think it may truly explain how this case was so quickly buried, probably before 911 was ever called.

    I recently had an "Aha!" moment when watching that George Clooney movie for the third or fourth time: Michael Clayton. I saw it a couple of years ago when it first came out on DVD, but it's one of those movies where you don't really know what's happening until the very end. Because the "legal/corporate" world depicted in it is so foreign to me, I was more confused than anything the first run through. So that's why it didn't "dawn" on me then.

    But the movie has been on TV now and again, and I've watched parts of it as I came across it sometimes. Then a couple of weeks ago I sat down and watched it in full, and knowing the "players" in it and their names and positions and the plot, I finally followed it all the way through. That's when it made complete sense for me: the protagonist, Michael Clayton, is a "fixer" for a large, powerful law firm, and he's actually called in to "fix" a mess one of the law firm's partners has gotten himself into because he's bipolar and having a manic episode.

    Then came the revelation: the "fixer" is not actually fiction, it's a real position law firms actually hire lawyers to fill, lawyers who in fact are "middle men" who bring in "others" to clean up whatever mess some high powered company exec has gotten him/herself into. Then I remembered that Quinton Tarentino movie, Pulp Fiction, and realized that a character in that movie was also a "fixer". (It's a very bloody movie, btw, so don't watch it to see this fictional guy unless you have a very strong constitution.)

    Well, those are movies, of course, and for all I knew, it was all made up stuff. So of course...GOOGLE! And I found some sites that in fact do discuss this position in law firms. It's not that open a topic, as this is obviously something the rich and powerful don't advertise, do they? And especially not the law firms they pay lots of money to hide just such things.

    Now imagine Lockheed Martin: one of the most powerful defense contractors in the world, does anyone really believe that with all the military weaponry they build and sell worldwide, no one ever goes astray?

    Oh, they go astray, all right. Lockheed Martin was in fact in trouble in the 1990s for some illegal dealings and they got caught, too. It took something like 10 years for it all to play out on the international stage, but they actually were exposed for it.

    You know, I'll look some of this stuff back up for you, as it's been a long time since I read all of this, so my memory is vague. Suffice it to say that I'm now pondering who might have been the "fixer" in the Ramsey house that night. Not "physically" there, but on the phone, guiding, consulting? And that's why those phone records were never subpoenaed, and one cell phone record, "turned over" by Team Ramsey A YEAR LATER, for the month of Dec. '96 had not one call on it the whole month, and no one in Boulder LE has ever seen the months before or after--well, not related to this case, anyway.

    Remember Patsy told that wild story to LE about that phone being lost that was so obviously a bunch of lies, so full of silly "details" it takes a really gullible person to even imagine there's any truth to it. Now imagine if LE--as in Smit working for Hunter--or even Team Ramsey were actually LOOKING for an intruder/child killer, they'd NEVAH think to GO AFTER that cell phone and its records in case the INTRUDER actually found it and used it and that could be THE LEAD they so publicly said they wanted. Who would buy that? A MORON could figure out tracking those phone records MIGHT be important! But NOT ONE PERSON in the DA's Office or on Team Ramsey, not even Lou "Legend in his own mind" Smit, not all those "brilliant" investigators through 14 years has ever thought, oh, maybe we should look at THE MISSING/LOST CELL PHONE RECORDS. All these years later, and NOT ONE INVESTIGATOR OR MEMBER OF TEAM RAMSEY HAS SAID, GET THOSE RECORDS AND INVESTIGATE!

    Only Steve Thomas has ever even brought it up. Does that make sense to ANYONE looking for the ACTUAL TRUTH in this case?

    Spade told us there was a trail leading all the way to the White House stopping the phone records from being subpoenaed. Since Spade never would/could tell us his source, and since most of us live in a world where that's not something we can fathom without proof, I've never been able to say, oh, that's it! But most of what Spade revealed to us in this case turned out to be spot on. And we do know that Haddon was linked to the White House as counsel to powerful Washington politicians--Gary Hart? Bill Clinton? (Sorry, I'll have to look that up again, as well.) Bynum, who worked for Access Graphics and therefore Lockheed Martin, did call Haddon's firm pronto. Within HOURS of the body being found, Bynum put that critical connection in place and PIs were on the ground getting "statements" from witnesses by the next day, the Ramseys had separate lawyers within days, and neither were talking to LE about anything by the evening of Dec. 26th.

    I will always believe Hunter was working with Team Ramsey all along, because I will never stop being astonished that he not only blocked the collection of the Ramsey phone records and clothing early on, but he hired Smit and other future Team Ramsey private detectives, giving them the PowerPoint which in fact belonged to the People because Smit created it from case evidence while working for Hunter, and then went on the record defending the Ramseys before it was all over.

    Steve Thomas going public with his resignation letter forced the Governor's hand, but all the Governor did was hand it back to Hunter with one difference--Hunter was ordered to hire a special prosecutor, and Michael Kane was the lawyer who almost ruined Team Ramsey's plan. But Hunter easily managed to subvert the Grand Jury--it was always going to be Hunter's decision, after all--and hand Smit the weapon that would destroy the case for good, and here we are.

    Alex Hunter is the poster child for corruption of government at the level of the court system, IMO. I will always believe that Lockheed Martin was the power that ran this injustice train.

    And now I know that our government is as corrupt as every other country in the world has known for decades. We, the People, are just the last to know. I recently heard an author speak while promoting a book, a woman of international experience, knowledge, and expertise (whose name, of course, I can't remember...sigh) who said, in answer to a question about corruption in government, "First, it's a given that all governments are corrupt...." Of course, I thought, how did I never figure this out until now?

    Talk about S L O W.... :blush:

    Look, these are just my thoughts, and I know nothing, except that it's hard to believe with all the evidence against the Ramseys that they just got "lucky" for so many years with so many DAs in Boulder working so hard NOT to prosecute this murder, magically rendering it unprosecutable for all time.

    So now I find myself wondering: who was "the fixer" in this case? The behind-the-scenes, invisible hand guiding players into place, manipulating them...? Bynum? Someone whose name we don't know?

    Well, I'm rambling now and have to go, but I'll try to get back and clear up some of this with some links. And sorry for typos, misspellings, don't have time to edit. :no:

    And aren't you sorry you asked, Elle? :yes:
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2010
  11. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I think Thomas said that Fleet White was questioned by Ramsey investigators the afternoon of the 26th, the same afternoon the body was found. White kept records of everything and had a dated note.

    I just saw Michael Clayton. It scared the pants off me. Maybe Hunter didn't want to wind up dead.
     
  12. Elle

    Elle Member

    Bravo! No, KK I am not sorry I asked. This is an excellent post full of realistic truths If I were you, I would very quickly add to your post above "this post should not be copied anywhere!" I am being serious here! Your post would be an excellent blueprint for a movie. Wish I had written this!

    If you do add this notice to your post, I will delete it from my post here. It is one of the best posts I've ever read here!
    To me, it's all true!

    P.S. Yes! There was a fixer in the JonBenét Ramsey case!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2010
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, if that scared you and you have a strong constitution, here's a real nightmare--all the more because it's probably truer than we even want to imagine: The Lords of War, starring Nicholas Cage in one of his best performances, is about the International business of buying and selling weapons for war. I think it's worth watching in context to this case because Lockheed Martin is in that very business. If there's any truth behind this fiction, it really shines a different light into the world of LM.

    And according to our D.E.A. (Drug Enforcement Admin.) there's more than a little truth in this movie. Here's the real arms dealer it was based upon--allegedly: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/07/world/europe/07dealer.html

    And this article in The Christian Science Monitor asks some interesting questions about the recent U.S. extradition of alleged Russian arms dealer Bout from Thailand to the U.S. under the cover of darkness and protest from the Russian gov't.: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/1116/Alleged-arms-dealer-Viktor-Bout-whisked-to-America/

    Interesting, to say the least.

    As for Hunter fearing for his life, maybe White didn't want to end up dead, either. He, more than anyone, knew exactly how bad this business of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey went for anyone not on Team Ramsey. What DA publicly implicates an entire family in a "child sex ring" with no investigation, much less an indictment? That's what Hunter did to the Whites in The Daily Camera. Unfreakingbelievable. Either I woke up in nazi Germany one day and I missed the memo, or this was yet another astonishing red flag waving over this case.

    The thing about Hunter is he had a well-worn record of "doing deals" with criminals, especially killers in infamous murder cases involving the rich and powerful. I don't think anyone had to threaten him; he already knew how it was going to go when he got that first call, I'd guess.
     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Bless your heart, Elle, you are such a gift to this forum. Whatever we write, you are there to encourage us. I hope you know how much your support means to me.

    As for copyright protection: I wrote it, therefore I own it, and it's published here with a date, so I'm not worried about that. I also saved it in my files, so if someone steals it and makes a movie from it, then I can sue and woohoo! The drinks are on me! :toast:
     
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    So let's see if I can find those old articles on Lockheed Martin's legal troubles.

    This one from the L.A. Times in 1995 has a bit of company background, as well as info on LM's troubles in Texas...Ft. Worth. Didn't the Ramseys go to Texas the summer before JonBenet died? Was Ft. Worth mentioned? We always wondered what they did in Texas, when Patsy was reported to have come back home with that giant diamond and JonBenet seemed "changed" to some friends.

    http://articles.latimes.com/1995-08-31/business/fi-40949_1_grand-jury
     
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Here's a wiki page describing the decades long history of bribery practiced by Lockheed with foreign gov't. officials going back to the 1950s:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals

    I found this particularly interesting, in the context of discussing the movie about arms dealers, Lords of War:

    And this article is directly related to the lessons learned when company officials were caught in those bribery scandals: they moved to "independent contractors" who, when caught doing arms deals with illegal "foreign factions" or gov'ts., are the ones indicted--NOT the companies from whom they get the weaponry:

    http://apogeeconsulting.biz/index.p...t-practices-act&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=55

     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2010
  17. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thank you, KK. I was revved up after I read what you had posted because the truth was written all over it. You appear to be on a roll this week! More power to you, girl! :)

    I'm more than pleased to read about about the copyright protection. I have seen personal notes added to posts relating to this.
     
  18. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member


    Bravo! Everything you said is true. I've always said "the fix" was in early. I've just never thought about there being an actual "fixer." I've always believed Hunter, Haddon, Bynum (and a bunch of other powerful people behind the scenes) were in on the Ramsey deal. If it hadn't been for Steve Thomas, we would never have known about the corruption in the case. And now you've got me thinking, Hunter going after Fleet White with the deranged Mystery Woman was payback (and a warning) for the Whites not backing the Ramseys. No wonder Fleet White is keeping his mouth shut. He understands too well the powerful forces arrayed against him if he tells what he knows. His only protection for himself and his family is silence.
     
  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I'm posting this stuff because it shows how powerful LM really is at the government level and has been for at least half a century. Does anyone doubt that LM could have stepped in "behind the scenes" to influence the events in Boulder on Dec. 26th, 1996? John Ramsey was an executive for their company who worked in what we know to be a highly sensitive area: computer programming, which would involve encryption, highly sensitive company and therefore gov't. defense secrets, etc.

    Does anyone here really think that neither John nor Patsy would have known anything about the dangers of kidnapping, foreign factions, and the Ft. Worth, Texas bribery scandal that Lockheed got caught in that was so huge it changed American law and is written in business textbooks? Think they never heard about it while Patsy accompanied John to Texas that summer--on a business trip if memory serves?

    Believe it: there is no end to how a corp. such as Lockheed ends up with billions in U.S. and international defense contracts--many of them now in the obviously dominant 21st century COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY business, since defense is as dependent upon it as the rest of us. Remember Access Graphics, anyone?

    I could post these articles all day. There is no end to this corp. intrigue nor was this left behind in the last century with the FCPA--the act passed in 1977 under Pres. Jimmy Carter, who was soundly defeated in the next election by--TEXAS REPUBLICAN GEORGE BUSH--remember Lockheed's division in FT. WORTH that led up to the--Foreign Corrupt Practices Act? (Can I get any more cynical?) Foreign Faction, anyone?

    Here's a recent scandal involving illegal political donations, and there LM is in the middle of it--out of reach, legally speaking, but there, none the less, and does anyone believe the company didn't benefit from "contracts" awarded, whether it can be nailed or not?

    To see a graphic illustration just click below:

    http://news.muckety.com/2010/08/06/...h-making-illegal-campaign-contributions/27511
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2010
  20. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I know what you mean: the "fixer" was news to me, too. George Clooney, bless his lovely heart, does these movies that are based on middle men in corrupt corporate/gov't. agencies that leave you thinking, what the heck? They're finally not entertainment, but education, it turns out. He did one about arms trading, as well, that left me stunned: http://syrianamovie.warnerbros.com/about.html

    The Whites might have had the same reaction I did when Hunter's fate was sealed this past summer: no court on earth could have delivered a worse punishment. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, and it should give us all pause and a good, long look into our own sins which will be visited upon our children. For I have no doubt that the corruption which Hunter has woven into his very soul led to the series of events and conditions that destroyed his son in the end. When you keep whittling away at the line between truth and deception, one day you look and it's not there anymore. What a tangled web we do weave...and Hunter wove his own.

    So I'll see what I can find on "fixers" for us and post it later, as I have to go now. If anyone else wants to jump in: the water is cold and the hell is hot, but the devil doesn't hang out in heaven. :reporter:

    Just remember, if I turn up dead, it wasn't suicide!
     

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