Anybody see this National Enquirer?

Now. About the pineapple bowl and glass. I believe Burke initiated this snack. I believe Burke was the one who wanted the snack after they got home and while he and his dad worked on that model airplane. It really doesn't matter if it was water or tea that he drank but I tend to believe it was tea because John stated that Burke liked tea.

I think Patsy got the bowl and pineapple out and placed it somewhere in the kitchen while she heated some water for Burke's tea. Burke picked up the bowl and took it to the breakfast dining room table. Thus, Patsy and Burke's fingers on the bowl. When the water was heated, Burke grabbed his glass with the tea bag in it and Patsy poured the water into it...thus Burke's prints on the glass.

Somewhere along this line, before everyone got into the bed, JBR helped herself to a couple cubes of that pineapple probably reaching into the bowl and picking them up with her fingers...I'm still reading to see if anyones prints were on the spoon.....at any rate, JBR's prints were not on it.

Was John already in bed? Was Burke present or was he in his bedroom and only Patsy and JBR was down there? Or did Patsy and John go to bed while JBR and Burke continued to play with their gifts?

 

Hi Learnin, Thanks for doing the experiment. I never thought it would take 2 hours for something like pineapple to clear the stomach. It seems to me that i read somewhere that the pineapple was found in the duodendum. I know I didn't spell that right but I'm sure you can figure out what I mean. Where is that and does that make sense?

 

Yes, that makes sense. You have the esophagus, Stomach and then the duodenum which is the first part of the small intestine. After that, you have the jejunum and then the ileum which is the last part of the small intestine.

The stomach empties into the duodenum. In a child the small intestine is approximately 12 feet long so the pineapple was located somewhere within 6 feet of the stomach which would fit my timeline very well.

 

Yes, thanks a million, Learnin, YOU DA MAN!! :cheers:

As a parental unit, I have to say I'd find it very surprising if the Ramseys allowed their children to stay up that late by themselves playing and went to bed, knowing they all had to get up early the next morning. Of course, it would probably be better if they slept on the plane, so maybe they did let them stay up later for that reason.

But how odd would it have been if they had left them up alone? In that large house? Children can get into so much trouble without trying, they really have to be supervised with structure, especially two of them. If the Ramseys were that lax, that would explain a few things.

Having said that, I have always felt that Burke's new Nintendo might have played a part in this tragedy. Have you ever played videogames? Very, very addictive. Especially with children, who will play them until they pass out if you let them, and who will fight over who gets to play how long, etc. I've seen perfectly lovely, even-tempered children get very aggressive over videogames; a neighbor said her sweet little boy threw the controller at the TV! They have done many studies on this by now, and while I don't have a hardcore position on how they affect children, I do believe parents have to supervise and train children in this activity or they can get very off-balance.

I am not saying I think this is evidence Burke did anything to JonBenet. I am saying that getting such a game system for Christmas, playing it in the afternoon with other neighborhood children (I believe Patsy said that's what Burke did in his room that afternoon as JB sat in the hall playing with her jewelry kit), then going to the Whites' house for hours, knowing he'd be on a plane for more hours the next morning, Burke might have sneaked out of bed to continue to play his games. Obviously he had a TV in his room to do so.

And maybe JonBenet woke up.

That's an issue I have trouble with, as well. The children woke early, Patsy said, that Christmas Day. While we only have the Ramseys' word for that, it would be consistent with how most children behave that day. So did none of them have a nap before going to the Whites'? If not, then I have to say I can see JonBenet either falling asleep in the car or going to bed and to sleep soon after they got home. But maybe she woke up at some point, to go to the bathroom, or wet, or hungry? And she would go to Burke's room, sometimes when that happened.

See, here's the part that is pure speculation, but there has to be something else as the catalyst to the abuse and death that followed.

What about the prior molestation?

Patsy's three after-hrs. calls to Dr. Beuf on Dec. 17th--which she didn't remember why she called, surprise, surprise--might be significant. Did Patsy discover JonBenet was being molested? Or did she decide she couldn't handle it alone and needed professional help?

So what if she did, and what if the molester fell into the statistical category that most do: older sibling?

And what if this caused a lot of stress and conflict within the family at an already stressful time of year?

Patsy told her good friend Mrs. Archuleta that JonBenet flirted too much, that she was too friendly, and Patsy was upset about it. The dictionary was turned to "incest", which any adult would know the meaning, but what about a kid who heard this strange word for the first time?

It's extremely common for family to blame the victim of sexual abuse, by the way, especially within the family when it involves more than one loved member. It's confusing and devastating to all.

And there is no greater taboo in our society. Socially, moving in the high airs the Ramseys did, it would be a long fall indeed to have something so unspeakable going on.

So this could have set the stage for a tension that exploded that night.

Of course, I am only speculating, but some things are not speculation: the autopsy is not ambiguous on the chronic vaginal inflammation and worn hymen. I can't believe it's just a coincidence someone shoved that paintbrush into the child the night she was murdered, either. That act was not sexual at all, it was violent and painful. Either it was mean to hurt or it was meant to cover up previous injury, IMO.

Since the autopsy also proves that JonBenet ate pineapple within an hour of her death, we know she was alive for that long before she was strangled. We know she was strangled after she was felled by the head blow because there were no defensive wounds on her body.

We know the cord was tied onto her body, not created and then looped over her head, because of the hair in the knots still attached to the scalp. We know the paintbrush tied onto the end of the cord/garrote came from Patsy's paint tray and this was broken and tied in the basement next to the paint tray. We know JonBenet was face down on the carpet by the paint tray because of the carpet fiber and particle of green paint found on her chin.

We also know the paintbrush was inserted into her, then broken into pieces and the tip, which would have had blood on it, has never been found.

We have Lou Smit telling us that JonBenet's urine was found outside the cellar door on the carpet, so we can reasonably assume the sequence of events for the strangulation went like this:

1. Because of the following, I'm going to conclude the head blow came first. Also, at some point during the initial attack, her pants and underwear were removed.

2. Victim was laid on her back by the paint tray; paintbrush was inserted. She was then wiped down and redressed with the size 12-14 Bloomies and long johns.

3. Victim was turned over, paintbrush broken and tied onto the end of the cord around the neck, leaving the brush end in the paint tray, the tip portion or the handle removed and concealed.

Since the cord could actually have been tied onto the neck as part of a game, or after the head blow, in her bed or elsewhere in the house, I am not putting this into this sequence as I don't know when that was done. But of course, by the time the "handle" was broken by the paint tray

4. Still on her stomach, the handle was used to pull the cord tighter and strangle the victim, who was held down on her right (I think?) shoulder where it was bruised. The cord pulled to the right of the back of the neck.

5. Death released muscle tension and therefore the contents of the bladder onto the front of the long johns and carpet under the body.

6. After death, the duct tape was applied to the mouth. Possibly the wrist ties were also loosely tied on around this time, but they could have been applied earlier along with the cord around the neck, which I've already explained is unclear to me.

7. She was moved into the cellar room, placed on the blanket, which was wrapped around her "papoose" style, though I question the position of her arms because of conflicting stories and photos.

8. The door to the cellar was closed and the block at the top moved to obstruct opening it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now there are lots of questions that come up as I think this through. Some reports say a Swiss knife was found by the body. Some say a Swiss knife was found on the counter outside the cellar room. Burke owned at least one Swiss knife, but the Ramseys later said two. The sources are sufficient to say a Swiss knife was at the crime scene in a significant location, and the cord had to be cut, and duct tape could have been cut, etc. Who would use Burke's Swiss knife but Burke? The maid even said she had hid his Swiss knife in the cupboard outside JB's bedroom.

There is the question of whether or not there were dolls in the cellar room, by the body, both or neither. We have no direct source and a fuzzy photo. So all I can say is if true and there were one or more dolls placed deliberately near or beside the body, this indicates "caring", as does wrapping her in the blanket, cleaning her body and redressing it--all important.

Other crime scene evidence that is odd and may or may not be significant:

1. the drawers left half-open in JAR's bathroom, in JB's room;

2. diapers hanging out of the cabinet outside JonBenet's bedroom in the laundry area;

3. kitchen paring/grapefruit (?) knife found on the washing machine outside JB's bedroom in the laundry area;

4. duffle bag with rope found in JAR's room; videotapes on the floor in JAR's bedroom;

5. markings on JB's hand

6. dictionary turned to page on which the word "incest" appears

7. JAR's suitcase used in staging an "exit" out the basement window had a dark duvet in it, along with a Dr. Seuss book, allegedly a gift to him from someone he doesn't want revealed, with a title and an inscription he doesn't want made public. Smit said the fibers found on JonBenet's clothes and in her genital area came from this duvet, though other LE have said those fibers came from John's shirt.

(Please add to this list if you feel inclined.)

Crime scene evidence that is critically important:

1. ransom note, written with Patsy's pen on her pad, practiced and rewritten, which Patsy could not be eliminated as the writer (hello?)

2. remainder of Bloomies "Day-of-the-Week" panty package, size 12-14, missing for five years, then turned in to Lacy by Wood with the allegation it was "found" by a Ramsey investigator during the first year after the murder and withheld (oh yeah, it was) until 2002

3. cord and duct tape sources never found

4. unsourced partial epithelial DNA from panty and full epithelial profile from long john waistband (you know the drill)

5. on the breakfast table: bowl of pineapple, which forensically was consistent with pineapple found in victim, with Patsy's and Burke's prints on it, and a glass with tea bag with Burke's print on it

6. Patsy's jacket fibers were found to be tied into the knots of the cord used to strangle the victim; John's Israeli wool shirt fibers were found in the genital area where the victim was wiped, according to Boulder LE.

(Again, please feel free to add to this list if you like.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have left out a lot of arguable evidence and issues, of course, important in the actual investigation and witness testimony, etc., but just trying to focus here regarding things related more to the violence and evidence on the body and at the crime scene itself.

This all should paint a picture as to what happened that night. While it will never be complete and it will always be hard to imagine what was done to JonBenet, this is in arguable: the violence and abuse were real, and all that was done took time and thought. Other than a minute source of DNA that was not semen or blood and easily could have been contaminant or artifact, I cannot see any evidence of an intruder at all.

Okay, have to run without proofreading, sorry, please excuse typos.

 

A lot to digest here and it's great to get so much information in one place. No time now, but, I'm going to read all of this again tonight and offer some comments....thanks.

 

Oh, it was self-indulgent of me to write so much, I realize that. But sometimes I take it apart and put it back together again to see what I missed before, or what maybe I misplaced, or if there's a new piece to add.

Then there are the long stretches now when I let it all go and start forgetting so much. So it's an exercise in memory, too.

So it's just that kind of post--thinking in writing. It's kind of you, but don't feel you have to respond or even read it, Learnin. I doubt most even try. Don't blame them. lol

 

koldkase,
I really do appreciate having a lot of information in one post because my time is at a minimum and I can gain a lot of information by reading in one place rather than jumping through different threads, etc. Maybe one day, if I can ever retire, I'll have more time to read through various threads and sites.
The first time I read ST's book, my first impression was that something, received by the kids, precipitated what happened that night. It just made sense to me. Christmas....new gadgets and toys and I always remember how we didn't want to go to bed on Christmas night when coming home from visiting because we wanted to play with our things. I wondered if Burke might have gotten some kind of camping or hunting item that he used unwisely. The nintendo seemed like a very good item because, as you mentioned, kids are often times consumed by these things. I just couldn't see Burke crawling in bed that night without playing it. More on another post.

 

koldkase wrote:

"What about the prior molestation?

Patsy's three after-hrs. calls to Dr. Beuf on Dec. 17th--which she didn't remember why she called, surprise, surprise--might be significant. Did Patsy discover JonBenet was being molested? Or did she decide she couldn't handle it alone and needed professional help?

So what if she did, and what if the molester fell into the statistical category that most do: older sibling?

And what if this caused a lot of stress and conflict within the family at an already stressful time of year?

Patsy told her good friend Mrs. Archuleta that JonBenet flirted too much, that she was too friendly, and Patsy was upset about it. The dictionary was turned to "incest", which any adult would know the meaning, but what about a kid who heard this strange word for the first time?

It's extremely common for family to blame the victim of sexual abuse, by the way, especially within the family when it involves more than one loved member. It's confusing and devastating to all.

And there is no greater taboo in our society. Socially, moving in the high airs the Ramseys did, it would be a long fall indeed to have something so unspeakable going on.

So this could have set the stage for a tension that exploded that night. "


Reply:

It really does seem that something was coming to the forefront about this molestation right around that Christmas. What do you posters think of this 911 call made a couple of days before the murder? Was JAR at home that day or had he already flown to Atlanta? Wasn't it at the same party the 911
call was made that someone found JBR crying by herself and she stated that "she didn't feel very pretty?"

 

The thing about that Nintendo that has always stuck with me is that it so changed the dynamic of "play" for children in the last 2 decades. Children are unable to process whether their behavior is normal or healthy or to monitor themselves in time management. The stories are legion of parents who have fought with their children to turn off the game system.

I would bet good money if Burke had a TV in his room to play videogames, he played when his parents were unaware of it. I don't know that this had anything to do with what happened that night, but there was a letter published in the tab National Enquirer where Judith Phillips' daughter wrote "to JonBenet" and spoke of Burke chasing them into the bathroom because they turned off his game while he was playing.

People who have never played videogames, especially in the earlier videogame play history, might not understand how aggravating that would have been. I have played some games which had sequences of tasks which literally took me weeks to complete because there was no "save" until you got through all the tasks in that sequence. If you got to the very end and "died" before you reached the "save" object, you had to start all over again. It was maddeningly tedious.

When I got frustrated, I knew to walk away and come back tomorrow, but what about a child? Even for me it was hard not to become obsessed with completing the task, because you come so close...then BAM! The fine motor functions one used on the controls/buttons were as complex and precise sometimes as a surgeon's. I used to think these gamemakers were diabolical because they configured these games to be so difficult. Then again, I'm not a "gamer" and it might have only been hard for me. lol

At any rate, it is something I will always wonder about as a possible catalyst, if not directly, then indirectly. Burke left the house on the morning of Dec. 26th clutching his Nintendo.

While I can see siblings getting into a knock down, drag out--very common, I can't reconcile the ensuing strangulation with Burke. He could have done it, he was physically capable, he obviously knew knots as a Boy Scout and was taking sailing lessons back in 1995, according to Patsy. But I still have a problem imagining Burke methodically committing the abuses on JonBenet in the basement by the paint tray.

That makes me wonder about the theory that the parents did that, thinking she was already dead and meaning only to cover up the prior molestation and who struck the head blow. The problem with this part is that we need some really good medical opinions, not bought experts, but simply the facts about the time between that head blow and the strangulation. If it was minutes, I have trouble thinking the parents came upon an unconscious JonBenet and went from that shock, fear, and sorrow to, Oh, let's stage a strangulation, what do you think? That's the problem I have with this theory.

 

Burke did have a TV in his room, specifically used to play VIDEOS, according to Patsy's 1997, April, LE interview:

Notice no videoGAMES were brought up, just videos, a different thing altogether.

Then the Nintendo comes into play when Patsy recounts Christmas morning. It keep coming up in the interview, too:

Asking Patsy details about when they went to bed:

Again, the same questions are repeated to Patsy. Detectives use this technique in interviews to see if the story stays consistent and to try to tease out details that may otherwise not be remembered.

 

On the "Interesting Photos" thread, someone asked about JB's and Burke's twin beds, and reading that '97 LE interview with Patsy got me to thinking about beds. That made me think about the pillow and bedclothes on JB's bed.

See, I have a problem with Burke carrying JonBenet into the basement. That I do not believe he'd have had the strength to do, as almost 50 lbs. of dead weight down all those stairs--a lot for an almost ten year old, slendar boy. I could be wrong on this, but for argument's sake, let's say he couldn't have done that alone.

So he would have to have bashed her head in the basement, right? If he were the one who also tied the garrote and "handle" on her by the paint tray, etc., that's the only way I can see it.

But besides me having a hard time believing he could have done that methodical process, there's another problem: the blood on the pillowcase in her bedroom, on her bed. Remember that? It was JonBenet's, we can infer from the '98 LE questioning. So I'm thinking she didn't bleed on that pillowcase randomly. I'm thinking she bled on it after the head blow or during a sexual assault. So that took place on her bed, or she was at least laid on the bed shortly after.

I can't see someone bashing her head in the basement, someone bringing her back upstairs and putting her on the bed, then taking her back to the cellar. That makes no sense in any situation I can think of.

So now I want to look closely at her bedclothes. That bed is a mess.

 

1. I agree that a video game could be a catalyst for a rage attack from a sibling from either getting beat or having a sister or brother shutting your game off.

2. The detectives were clearly interested in seeing if Burke might have stayed up that night.

3. I noticed TT, in repeating what he has heard, stating that Patsy goes to bed first. I find this hard to believe. What's the chances that a mother goes to bed first on Christmas night when the family is leaving for a trip the next day?

4. If this was an attack from Burke, because of rage, then, we have to put ourselves into the mind of a parent covering up. There's no obvious head injury but you have a dead body or lifeless body which you believe is dead.
If there are no other signs of injury, you'd probably call an ambulance explaining child was found unconscious,etc. I believe, if this scenario is the case, there had to be some kind of visible injury, probably a neck bruise or something.

5. I'm more inclined to believe, if it was Burke, it was a sexual experimenting gone bad. This would explain the cleaning up, the wiping of the vaginal area and the thigh and the redress. My main theory is BR experimenting, JBR protesting and him keeping her quiet with a head blow. Then, the coverup by making it look like a kidnapping gone bad.....


AT ANY RATE. I THINK A VERY IMPORTANT PIECE OF EVIDENCE IS THE LINT AND DUST ON THE LITTLE GIRL'S FEET. I believe, whatever room JBR was standing in when she picked up that lint and dust, is the room where the attack occurred. Now. Lint and dust does not stick to dry feet. You need to have moist feet for dust and lint to stick to. This would indicate that JBR was attacked shortly after taking her shoes off....her shoes and socks......her feet would have been moist and she would have picked that dust and lint up.

 

Interesting. See my last post about the lint and dust on the feet. JBR had to be standing in bare feet somewhere in a room before the head was struck and shortly after taking her shoes and socks off.

If you pulled longjohns completely off and put them back on, would it not wipe the dust and lint off the feet?

 

Hypothetically, with it being Christmas, I would have thought Burke Ramsey would have been more interested in his Christmas games. He was that type of child. Always intrigued with his hand held electronic games. I can't believe any sex games were happening on Christmas night. I'm more inclined to think it was an accident through being tired, if JonBenét was annoying him.

I have always thought the Ramseys covering up for Burke was a possibility.

 

I totally agree. He was NINE after all...I think that playing with his new Nintendo was on his mind that night...not sex games with his little sister. I can't wrap my mind around that one anyway. Of course, I didn't know him...but, have read that he was a pretty immature 9 year old. Sort of withdrawn...(I have a 9 year old daughter, and if her little 3 year old sister turned up missing, and then later found dead (GOD FORBID) in our home...she would be asking ALL kinds of questions...I can assure you!!!!!)

 

N.B. Moderators, please feel free to transfer these notes if they are in the wrong place. I was thinking of the white top. Patsy lied to Steve Thomas, first telling him it was a red one, and later changed it to the white one JonBenét wore to the White's. Of course, the longjohns are mentioned here as well.

A few snippets. Courtesy of Little.

I don't remember reading Fleet White had actually touched JonBenét's ankle. Of course both of them were witness to each other touching the dead body.

 

Ames,

I personally think Burke Ramsey was teed off with JonBenét and her pageant scene and wouldn't give her the time of day. He was really into his hand held games. I do feel she may have got on his nerves that night if they were in the kitchen with the pineapple, and he grabbed the torch and hit her with it.

My two youngest grandchildren boy and girl 11 and 9 are into the Wii Games. Hey those are expensive! I bought them for Christmas.

 

When pondering this theory, I have to consider that the Ramseys would have been very afraid that Burke would be taken away, put into custody of the state, at least temporarily. Besides the HISTORY of Burke injuring JB with an accident involved his golf club, there's the prior molestation. I will always believe Patsy knew about this, as there would have been blood in JB's underwear long before Dec. 26th. How does a mother not notice that? So if an ambulance were called, that would have been discovered during medical examination, and the parents and whoever was committing this abuse on the child would be answering questions.

Then there is the lifelong stigma. For all of them.

In this theory, I believe the Ramseys would have called for info and help. We had a couple of posters who claim to have some inside info on the Ramseys and their phone records. One went so far as to say the Ramseys made two calls that night and we'd be shocked to know to whom those calls were placed. Another said the suppression of the Ramsey cell phone records went up to the White House. Lockheed Martin--of which John was not only an executive in AG, but as Patsy's '95 letter stated, was a newly appointed officer to a LM committee or board of some sort--certainly had the power and connections to get that done, IMO, as well as to get the month of Dec. '96 cell phone record cleaned. Hunter would have been on board without a fight, as well, IMO, and it was Hunter who blocked the BPD from getting many subpoenas for evidence, including the phone records. (If that's not a red flag for corruption and conspiracy, I don't know what ever would be.)

Of course, no one can reveal their sources--such a curse in this case because no one is going to risk professional career just to satisfy our interest in knowing the truth, except Steve Thomas, of course. It's not like there would be any legal repercussions at this point for anyone, anyway. So I can't blame them there.

What is our source for the "lint and dust" on the feet, Learnin? You see, "dust and lint" is very non-specific. Thomas mentioned in his book how dirty Patsy's home was. JonBenet could have gotten dust and lint on her feet off carpet, hardwood floors, etc. In fact, the carpet in JB's bedroom looked very dirty in a recent photo I posted on the thread "Interesting photos". But we now know that LE did have testing done on just such matter collected from some point in this crime scene or the body. We also know that the forensic expert who did the testing had it in his possession for many years, until Lacy collected it after PERV Karr was arrested. What we don't know are the results of that testing, or at least, I don't. Have I missed something?

 

Thanks for posting this for us, Elle. I need to read Thomas' book again. He has a true detective's eye for what was going on. I remember Patsy actually reaching out and touching Thomas' arm in that LKLive face-off with the Ramseys and Thomas. I agree that Patsy had more than the "Christian wife and mom devoted to family" going on. I think she learned in her high school and pageant competitions how to play people. I don't believe for one minute she and John ended up at the top of the food chain with Lockheed Martin by being the saints they want everyone to believe they were.

John cheated for two years on his first wife. Then he unceremoniously dumped his mistress while hiding behind a door as Patsy dispatched her with...LIES. We have seen the Ramseys lie so many times, I will never believe they were anything but opportunists who worked their way to the top the old fashioned way--climbing over the bodies of those who got in their way.

And this is pretty much how things work in the sphere of the rich and powerful. I get that. But when the body is that of a six year old--sorry, game over.

 

Okay, if that's how it went, then the head blow happened upstairs over something involving siblings fighting and that's when JB's blood got on her pillowcase.

I do want to point out that Burke was within a few weeks of being 10--his birthday was in January. I only bring that up because we're talking about developmental issues related to his age. The brain functions of children are related to their age very specifically in normal children, as I'm sure you know, which is why the ability to form "intent" is related to a child's age in laws. So an additional "year" of development matters in this respect: Burke had completed nine years of life when he had his ninth birthday, but he had almost lived another year of development. Were he but a few weeks older, he would have met the then "10 years old" standard of Colorado law for a child to be charged with a crime.

If there was no issue of ongoing abuse that night as a catalyst, then the insertion of the paintbrush was to cover up PREVIOUS molestation. I have pondered for a long time that JonBenet was not being molested that night prior to the head blow, because if she had been there would have been no need to insert that paintbrush to make it look like she had been. If that makes sense.... The only reasons to insert the paintbrush were cover up or sadism, IMO.