Bonita Papers

I believe Alex Hunter gets credit for that giant obstruction of justice--again. Like the phone records, Hunter refused to get a subpoena for the clothes, if memory serves. I think that was another beef Thomas wrote about, wasn't it?

What investigation into the murder of a child involves the DA refusing to get subpoenas for the most basic of evidence from the family, phone records and clothes worn during that time period? But Hunter's EXCUSE was he wanted the family to "cooperate" instead of forcing them. Yeah, they "cooperated": a year later, when they could cry memory loss, pick and choose what LE could see based on the evidence analysis records Hunter had so cheerily handed over to their lawyers.

Bastid! Hunter should have been prosecuted for obstruction! He should have at least been disbarred!

 

Sorry I missed this earlier, Fr Brown.

I get what you're saying. There are probably ten thousand things LE did during the course of their investigation of the crime scene which we haven't seen listed moment by moment. Of course.

All I'm saying is an argument about what Patsy did or didn't do that morning, based on what she or John said, is dicey. Without specific corroboration of that by something tangible, I can't come down firmly that this or that is what happened, absolutely.

As for why Patsy would say she didn't bath when she did, I always put things in context: she had to lock herself into some kind of story while talking to LE early in the "kidnapping." Maybe realizing her story about waking at 5:30 am and calling 911 at 5:50 didn't leave time for a bath, she improvised. Or maybe she didn't take a bath. I really don't know what Patsy Ramsey was doing or thinking that morning, except I believe she wanted to have her child's body found by LE and then wanted to get out of town as fast as their private plane could fly them.

As for Patsy's makeup, maybe I'm not clearly making my point: I don't think it can be argued as evidence of anything but that she had makeup on when LE got there. Also, she wore wigs long before she had chemo, Judith Phillips said. I don't know if Patsy was wearing a wig that morning or not, though. I don't remember anyone saying she was, but I also don't remember anyone saying she wasn't. Would they know? Expensive wigs look natural, after all.

Ummm...what are we arguing about? lol

 

Okay, sorry, but as you can see, I go far afield.

So I am just working through my notes. I'll be back with some other interesting things I noticed, but do you have more thoughts from your reading you want to discuss?

 

Just for the record, I guess what I'd say is that evidence corroborating John's alibi (slept-in bed, wet shower) is weak evidence of innocence because anyone with half a brain would fake those things, but if either of those elements was missing it would be fatal to his alibi because John told us he spent the night in bed and took a shower in the morning.

I think John has more than half a brain and Patsy was pretty smart herself. If they collaborated on an elaborate crime scene staging, they're going to think about how to make themselves look like they just got out of bed in the morning. I'd play it up a little, wouldn't you? That Patsy ended up looking like she'd been up all night is astonishing.

(I'm not picking a fight.)

 

I think Patsy simply ran out if time. She obviously (to me, anyway) never went to bed that night- coming home from the White's there was still so much to do to get ready for their early flight and back-to-back trips. So she was scurrying around and when the "accident" (or not) happened, it took the rest of the night to stage it. Then- it was time for the plane, so 911 had to be called.

 

Yeah, John said he got up before the alarm went off at 5:30.

Imagine poor Patsy running up the stairs to rip off her clothes and makeup and jump into bed just in time for John to wake up and find her pretending to saw logs when damn! he's already in the shower.

(BTW, if she and John were in it together, she shouldn't have run out of time. The plane was scheduled to take off at 7am; they weren't planning to leave the house until 6:30. Patsy made the 911 call much earlier, at 5:42am. I'm sure a co-conspirator would have allowed her an extra 5 minutes to make her story look plausible.)

 

The 911 call was actually made around 6 am. Police (Officer French) arrived about 10 minutes later. If JB's death occurred between midnight and 1 am, that left about 6 hours under EXTREME stress to concoct a story, stage the crime. Remember, this wasn't a movie- this was real life- a horrific event- the horrible death of a child they loved. Don't be fooled by the 6 hours- it may seem like a long time but it really wasn't. There had to be a period where they were stunned and simply couldn't move.

 

Let's pretend the Ramseys were entirely innocent. Better yet, let us put ourselves into that position and we are totally innocent. We have a ransom note that tells us our daughter has been taken; why she has been taken; and warning us not do contact anyone or she dies.

The first thing I'm going to think is this is some sad joke. And, especially since the ransom note was completely unusual, I would be even more prone to think this was a prank. I'd search my house. Then, I would take a few minutes to study that ransom note. I would then call police department directly and inform them of the note and of the warnings so they do not pull up with sirens blaring and lights flashing.

I believe I read somewhere that Patsy asked John what they should do. If so, I find it very hard to give John a pass for not handling this situation more discreetly. This doesn't prove John was aware from the git go, but, it's highly suspicious to me.

 

But would police have checked toothbrushes and showers early that morning when they thought it was a kidnapping? Without a body, there wouldn't have been any reason to check out their story of the events first thing that morning.

 

I agree with you, KK. Alex Hunter must have a lot on his conscience.
He should have definitely been disbarred.

 

You're right. According to JonBenet, the 911 call was at 5:52am. My point is unaffected, however. They could have made the call a little later without loss of credibility. If John and Patsy were in it together, they had time to make it look like she'd been in bed before the police were called. That didn't happen. Why?

 

I don't understand. Are you asking me if John would have thought that?

If I were trying to create the appearance of having had a normal night and morning, I would, as much as possible, just do the things I normally do. I wouldn't leave out toothbrushing because I'd think the police were unlikely to check.

French told the next officer on the scene that something wasn't right. It wasn't like the police were completely clueless up until the body was found.

 

I find this whole clothes thing puzzling. In JonBenet, Steve Thomas had the opportunity to let loose on the DA's office for failing to subpoena the clothes, but he's pretty reticent about it, as I recall. He does make it clear that it wasn't the fault of the police.

Then it took a whole year to even ask for the clothes? What was going on? They didn't ask for a year?

But when they do ask, they actually get them, most of them. That might be the most mysterious part of all. The transcripts go on at length about who actually had the clothes, the Ramseys or their private investigators. The Ramseys, as is usual, have no clue.

 

It just sounded like you were advancing your theory (Patsy did it all while John slept) on the fact that John's toothbrush would have been wet, his shower would have been wet and this would have corroborated his story.

I don't think the police, that morning, checked showers and toothbrushes. So, I'm not sure why you're mentioning these things. Are you saying that John was not lying because he would have thought police were going to check his shower and toothbrush?

The only thing that really corroborates the theory that Patsy did it all, while John slept, is that she was wearing the same clothes and her side of the bed was not turned down. I think it's quite possible that John did get in bed that night and then something happened. Then, he was awakened with the screaming, etc. But, I'm only advancing this as a possibility. I'm not sure, one way or another, if Patsy did it all or John helped.

One of the strongest reasons I believe that John and Patsy were both involved in the coverup is because of what happened after the body was found. Somewhere, at some point, John or Patsy (if only one was involved) would have began to suspicion the other. I don't see either one of them covering for the other unless one had the goods on the other.

I don't ever see Patsy covering for John, ever....If John covered for Patsy it could only be because Patsy had some very damaging goods on John. The most likely scenario would be the abuse that we know was happening.

So, I give the theory that BDI the highest probability because both parents were covering up. Secondly, PDI and she had damaging goods on John. In this scenario, John would have become increasingly aware of what happened and would have felt guilty because of his previous actions.

 

I really think that I've gone over the strength, or lack thereof, of John's alibi exhaustively. I have not said what you're saying I said. I refer you to my earlier posts, if you're interested. My main point had to do with a weak, but consistent, "alibi" for John contrasted with a negative "alibi" for Patsy. By that I mean, Patsy's appearance screamed that she had not actually spent the night in bed. If they were co-conspirators, why did John have an alibi, such as it was, while Patsy had nothing? Worse than nothing.

As far as whether or not the detectives checked the toothbrushes and John's shower that morning, I can only go by what I would do myself in that situation. The police had John and Patsy go over their stories multiple times with multiple officers. It makes sense to me that easy-to-check time-critical elements would be checked. Water evaporates. But it sounds like you know they didn't check so I'll take your word for it. (Patsy said she didn't take a shower that morning, just for the record.)

 

When LE finally got the R's clothes, they said some of them seemed new, others had been obviously laundered many times. Let's face it- this was many months later. There was no way those clothes went right from Dec. 26, 1996 to the police in an unaltered state. Even the size 12 panties that were sent on to LE YEARS later may or may not have been the same panty set that the ones on JB were taken from. Bloomies sold those Day of the Week sets for years. But the two most important garments, JR's dark wool Israeli shirt and Patsy's fleece sweater/jacket, were matched to fibers on the body and crime scene.

 

I have no information that the police did not check Johns toothbrush or shower that morning. Maybe they did. But we don't know and I don't think they would have. At that time, they did not have a body and, after the search, did not find a body so why check and see if they were ever in bed?

But maybe they did, I don't know but I don't think we could use this toothbrush and shower thing as evidence that John had, indeed, been asleep through the whole thing.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not disputing your theory that John might have slept through the whole thing. I'm just saying there's not enough evidence, IMO, to say he did.

I think the evidence points to the fact that John, at the least, was in bed sometime that night because he did have a change of clothes on. He must have changed out of clothes at some time. But this does not mean he didn't throw his clothes in the chute and get in bed. And it does not mean that, having heard a commotion or even heard Patsy screaming, that he didn't get up out of bed and see what was going on and at some time put on new clothes.

 

If I appear to be beating a dead horse, it's because I don't like to have my arguments misrepresented. I did not say that if John's toothbrush or shower was wet that it meant that he slept through the whole thing. There are a few possibilities there. If, however, his shower was dry, it means he was lying about taking a shower. It's a simple point I'm making. The fact that most, if not all, of the detectives came to believe that John was not involved in the murder or staging suggests to me that the corroborating elements of his story, such as they were, were in order. (Not because those elements are strong positive evidence in themselves, but because if they weren't in order it would mean he was lying.)

I'm probably wrong about this too, but I think it's more usual to brush teeth first and put lipstick on afterward. (Doubtless there are many FFJ posters who do it in the reverse order.) If Patsy's toothbrush was dry, then that would be an interesting point. Too bad the police were too stupid to think of it.

If you've read JonBenet, then you'll know that the police were observing Patsy and John closely. French said that something wasn't right about the situation and that Patsy was eyeballing him through splayed fingers. Someone noticed that John never comforted his wife and they spent little time together. Arndt noticed that John's demeanor in the morning was casual and somewhat jocular. Why ever would the police check to see if the physical scene matched their stories?

!!!**^&^&feck!!!%*#%@#%(@^(@^^(_feckfeckfeck(^^_***(_(^^(^(!!!!!!!

My computer seems to be acting up. I think I'm going to have to take a little break from this forum.

 

Do you mind if I steal this fb and say this is how I feel today!

!!!**^&^&feck!!!%*#%@#%(@^(@^^(_feckfeckfeck(^^_***(_(^^(^( !!!!!!! I luv it!

I am having computer trouble too and it's still feckfeckfeck*** cold here in Canada!

Tomorrow might be a better day for both of us!

 

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