Burke Ramsey... the missing link

I don't doubt that some skull fractures do not bleed. However, in THIS case there WAS bleeding. And once bleeding begins, what would stop it? The bleeding presumably, once started, would continue until the bloodflow stopped. Therefore, the garotting would have had to have occurred IMMEDIATELY after the blow. Possible ... but IMO, not likely.

However, IF the garotting had left the victim near death ... with very little blood flow ... then the bleeding inside the skull would be minimized after the head blow finally killed the victim.

NOTE: JonBenet was DEFINITELY alive when garotted.


...YumYum

 

BTW ... I have just re-read this entire thread. You people are phukking BRILLIANT!

Honestly, the level of expertise, personal insight, tolerance, and independant thinking borders on the SPECTACULAR!

... can anyone imagine such thought provoking discussion taking place at TheCesspool?

Thread after thread demonstrates the vast reservoir of intelligence, creativity, and personal integrity that THIS forum possesses.

FFJ ROCKS!!!


...YumYum

 

I just finished with ST's book and towards the end whenever he talked about Burke's 2nd interview, he mentions that in that interview, he did not speak much about anything. But in his first one, he had been explicity in describing what happened to her. He confirmed that her bed-wetting had been a big problem. He said JB helped carry in gifts to a friend's house after being woke up in the car and then once home, walked in the house in front of her mom up the spiral staircase. I was just wondering, are those interviews anywhere that can be read? Or because of his age, they could not be seen by the general public.

 

I assume you are talking about when there is a skull fracture and a scalp wound so the blood can continue flowing. In this case where there was no opening in the scalp and only so much blood could be released into the area between the skull and dura mater. What stopped it, was it had no place to go.

I have read several good arguments that JB was already dead when the garrote was put on her neck. The marks left by the cord could be post-mortem brusing. The internal organs in her neck were not damaged at all, like you see with ligature strangulation. And the petechiae which Meyer thought were caused by strangulation could have been caused by convulsions which are systematic of a severe head concussion.

Petechiae (puh-TEE-key-eye) are tiny little broken capillary blood vessels. Everyone has had them. A hard bout of coughing or vomiting can cause facial petechiae, especially around the eyes. These mean nothing. Newborns often have facial petechiae from the tight squeeze through the cervix. Thus petechiae are fairly common and in general of no concern.
http://www.drhull.com/EncyMaster/P/petechiae.html

 

Wouldn't it be great to have Guest Experts like Spitz, Wecht, and others join in a chat so that we could ask these question DIRECTLY ... and get direct answers?

Hmmm ... I think I need to self medicate


BTW, BluesStrat ... great response. My level of understanding in these areas are minimal, so I've pretty much exhausted what I can argue on this issue. There is so much "grey" in so many of these areas that we are forced to extrapolate. I'll TRY to keep an open mind on this and other issues ... but I'm only human. And thanks for your contributions here at FFJ ... you're a great addition to a stellar crew.


...YumYum

 

Is This A Possibility ...

In considering all EasyW has to say (physics, etc. etc.) I'm wondering if it is possible that Patsy had Jonbenet kneeling down (outside the tub) or kneeling down in the tub, while she tried to apply the color kit to touch up Jonbenet's roots for the 'fast approaching' pageant. There is a long spray (chrome & plastic) that is top heavy & curved attached to the bath tub - which Patsy needed to rinse Jonbent off when she's done.

Now, if you go along with me, in this scenario .... you see a Mother leaning over her child & going through the awkward ordeal of trying to keep Jonbenet still, while she applies the hair tint.

Jonbenet is struggling & irritable & trying to shake away the harsh smell of the hair dye that her Mom is trying unsuccesfuly to apply .... it gets out of hand, Patsy is thoroughly frustrated, they are struggling & Patsy whops her with the heavy, spray hose top, trying to keep her still ... then Jonbenet goes limp & Patsy knows something is dreadfully wrong.

You see, Patsy, conveniently mentioned in her interview that she though (she PR herself) may have colored her hair the afternoon of the 25th, even though no one had asked if she had and she said "you know, mayble I colored my hair with one of those little kits".

Patsy (I believe) may have been told by her lawyers that LE had detected a strong odor of some sort of bleach in Jonbenet's bathroom & so she concocted the story of MAYBE having colored her own hair that day.

Apparently, Jonbenet had MANY little barrettes in her hair that evening & others were all scattered around the room ... did Patsy use these barettes to try & separate Jonbenet's hair, in order to facilitate touching up her dark roots?

Since Patsy colored her own hair, then common sense tells us that she did the coloring of Jonbenet's, because hairdressers will not color 6 year olds - it may even be against the law.

Some of the hair dye might not have made it to Jonbenet's head, but dripped and dropped all over the tub and perhaps some clothing, hence the need for Patsy to be doing laundry that night.

After all, Jonbenet's roots were clearly showing & there would be absolutely no time to do it in Charlevoix & especially not on the boat, because that would mean people would see that she died her little girl's hair, etc. etc.

Oh well, there I go again .... trying to find a smooth round surface that fits the puzzle.

Regards,
Mandarin

 

Anyone remember this 1998 article?

Magazine: JonBenet flashlight found
By CHRISTOPHER ANDERSON, Camera Staff Writer
Monday, January 12, 1998

A flashlight possibly used to inflict a fatal head wound on 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey was found during a review of evidence at Boulder police headquarters, according news reports.

The flashlight was first spotted on a kitchen counter in the Ramsey home on Dec. 26, 1996, the first day of the investigation, but had disappeared, according to an article in this week's issue of Time magazine.

After Boulder Police Cmdr. Mark Beckner ordered a review of all case files and materials, almost a year later, a flashlight was found in an evidence storage room at police headquarters.

The flashlight does not appear to belong to any police officers, according to the magazine.

"Cops had long suspected that a weighty black flashlight was used to inflict the fatal 8-inch head wound on the six-year-old beauty queen after she was garroted," reported Dick Woodbury, Time's Denver bureau chief.

Boulder Police Chief Tom Koby declined to comment on the report.

"We have never commented on rumors and speculations, and we are going to stay consistent with that," City of Boulder spokeswoman Leslie Aaholm said.

Ramsey was found slain in the basement of her parents' home Dec. 26, 1996. No arrests have been made. In addition to the massive skull fracture, she was found strangled with a garrote made from a broken paint brush found in the home. There were also signs of possible sexual abuse.

The flashlight has been sent to the Colorado Bureau of Investigations for lab testing, according to the brief article, which appears in the magazine's "Scoop" section.

"Police believe the flashlight's heavy rubber coating seems consistent with an instrument that could deliver a crushing blow yet not cause bleeding," the magazine reports, without identifying a source.

A flashlight was listed among several blunt objects collected at the Ramsey's Boulder home, according to four search warrants released Sept. 29.

Other seized items, which could have been used to strike Ramsey, included a baseball bat, golf clubs, a red clay brick and a hammer.

~~

http://www.thedailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1998/01/12-1.html

 

Rubber Coating

"Cops had long suspected that a weighty black flashlight was used to inflict the fatal 8-inch head wound on the six-year-old beauty queen after she was garroted," reported Dick Woodbury, Time's Denver bureau chief.

I question the veracity of this information. Jeffy Shapiro was Woodbury's source and Jeffy was being fed a diet of total BS by Alex Hunter.

I interviewed a detective that participated in tests of objects that could have caused JonBenet's head wound. His opinion was that it was not a flashlight.

 

Spade,
Did the detective take a guess at what caused the head wound?

 

I saw that picture, Texan. I don't remember who it was. He's holding the flashlight in his hand. It may well have been Wecht. I've often seen a reenactment of a crime, and it does help, by either, this couldn't have happened, because of this-n-that. This is what I'm interested in hearing and seeing. I'm surprised this has not been done on TV. I don't suppose they'll put a shown on just for me.

 

Tylin

He thinks the object had a smooth surface. A Maglight has a "waffled" surface to make it easier to grip. Police have lots of experience with ananlyzing head wounds caused with a Maglight since cops cause many of those wounds themselves.

 

1. Strangulation attempt by unknown means causing unconsciousness.
2. Followed by head blow and placement of the cord around neck or vice versa.

 

::yes::
I posted this site before. It has lots of good information about brain injuries in general:
http://www.biausa.org/Pages/types_of_brain_injury.html#second

You might not end up with much bleeding in the brain from a skull fracture. It all depends on whether or not blood vessels were torn during the injury and whether they were large blood vessels or just small ones.
The autopsy does state:
Upon reflection of the scalp there is found
to be an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right
temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge,
posteriorly all the way to the occipital area. This
encompasses an area measuring approximately 7x4 inches. This
grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of
organization.........
On removal of the skull
cap there is found to be a thin film of subdural hemorrhage
measuring approximately 7-8 cc over the surface of the right
cerebral hemisphere and extending to the base of the cerebral
hemisphere. .................
There is a
thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire
right cerebral hemisphere. On the right cerebral hemisphere
underlying the previously mentioned linear skull fracture is
an extensive linear area of purple contusion extending from
the right frontal area, posteriorly along the lateral aspect
of the parietal region and into the occipital area. This area
of contusion measures 8 inches in length with a width of up
to 1.75 inches. At the tip of the right temporal lobe is a
one-quarter by one-quarter inch similar appearing purple
contusion. Only very minimal contusion is present at the tip
of the left temporal lobe. This area of contusion measures
only one-half inch in maximum dimension.
So, it appears there was an extensive amount of bleeding and contusion (bruising) in the brain. This website has some good drawings of brain contusion.

Here's another good website about head injuries in children - specifically shaken baby, but the information about brain injuries on the site are good.(WARNING: EXPLICIT PICTURES)http://www.sbstruth.com/subdural.htm
That site also has a good bibliography page.

 

JB's hair had been dyed, but I have the feeling that Patsy did the coloring before JB attended the Whites' Christmas party, and not after they got home late at night and would have to get up a few hours later to catch their flight to Michigan.

I believe JB's hair was done in that strange way (with all the hair pulled back from her face and tied with bows - see the artist's rendition), to conceal the head wound.

 

I Don't Think So ...

rashomom .... I don't think Patsy would have had time to do it before going to the White's & apparently the kids were outside playing after opening all their presents.

I don't know what you mean "artist's rendition" ... do you have a link to that? BUT, don't the Rams Xmas morning/day photos show Jonbenet with somewhat dark roots?

This was to be Patsy's 1st meeting with Melinda's fiance who was going to be a doctor & obviously she would want to impress him.

The photos of the Ram home show that all the rooms were quite messy & it's obvious that Patsy had a mega list of things to do that night .... I do NOT think she ever went to bed that night.

And I have a distinct feeling that, since, she in her own words she admitted that she really wasn't looking forward to going to Charlevoix .... that she was more likely intent on prepping Jonbenet for the upcoming pageant that would take place the very next day on their arrival home from all the hectic travel plans they had on their plate.

You know, it probably didn't matter to her that the White's, etc. would see Jonbenet's roots, but I think in Patsy's pageant mind, it would be important for Jonbenet to be seen by Stewart and people on the Red Boat as a perfect little princess.

Regards,
Mandarin

 

Quite correct Sue. If you take the autopsy apart you can break it down into the following four areas:

"extensive area of scalp hemorrhage" - there was a lot of bleeding directly under her scalp.

"a thin film of subdural hemorrhage" - minor bleeding under the dura membrane.

"a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage" - minor bleeding under the arachnoid membrane.

"contusion measures 8 inches in length with a width of up to 1.75 inches" - a huge bruise was on the top of her brain.

What the autopsy reveals is that the piece of skull bone that broke loose did not penetrate either brain membrane, which would have caused much more bleeding.

The RST claims there was only a small amount (7-8 cc) of blood, therefore the garrote was in place before the head blow. However, that amount was "subdural"--between the dura and arachnoid membranes. The real amount of massive bleeding was under her scalp and labeled "extensive" by Coroner Meyer. The head blow came before the garrote was put on her.

 

That sounds like a heck of a lot of bleeding and damage to me!!! I wish the M.E. had measured the entire amount of blood inside her skull. Did it say that the area of the hemorrhage was about 7" x 4"? That's almost the size of a 5 x 8 index card, and on a small skull that's a BIG area!!

But then, maybe it still wouldn't have been enough to break through the idea that JonBenet was strangled before being hit on the head.

Heymom

 

Heymom, a few years back I had the opportunity to speak with a Professor of Anatomy at a major university here. He had had extensive experience with treating children with head injuries, working for a long time in a Paediatric Casualty Department and concurrently teaching anatomy at the University. Very down to earth and knowledgable doctor.

When I first talked about the JBR case with him and asked him to read the autopsy report, my question to him was whether he would be inclined to think that the head blow or the strangulation came first. I said to him "there was hardly any bleeding inside her skull".

On reading the report, his words to me were "you have mislead me, this is quite a lot of bleeding in a child's skull". He said it was completely consistent with the head injury being inflicted first, although obviously said that he couldn't say with any certainty. He also made the point that Cyril Wecht did, that pressure or stimulation of the vagus nerve could also have slowed the heartbeat and subsequently the bleeding into the brain.

I asked how JonBenet could still be alive with such a massive fracture and he showed me photos in some of his medical books of children who had sustained fractures similar and worse to JBR and still been able to walk.

 

Thanks, Zotto! And I don't believe we have met before, so, nice to meet ya! :hiya:

Heymom