Good Christian People

I wasn't questioning Amber's intent at all. I was trying to circumvent a jump onto the Catholic-Church-as-pedophile-protector bandwagon. Yep, I'm defensive about it. Look at the replies and the direction the replies were going. If I got anyone's underwear in a twist, I apologize but I just didn't want to see it. Of course I have no seniority here and no right to censor anyone...(EDIT: It looks as if I have no leg to stand on...I was responding to The Punisher alone. OK, I deserve a lock-out for a while...)

Also not saying that persecution is unique to Catholics, you see I said Christians, not Catholics.

One last thing...There is a reason to protect priests from FALSE accusations, because they are also vulnerable to that. It is not necessarily ONLY that the Church wanted to protect its own when the claims were true, but when the claims were false - how could any priest recover from being accused? Does anyone think that any false claims were ever made, or was everyone telling the truth every time? (not being sarcastic, I really would like to know.)

Thanks for allowing me to have my say and not banning me. It's funny to watch myself in the position of defending the Church when in reality, I am in question about some of the tenets of that same Church! Sorry. :shutup: :no: fftopic: :ziplip:

 

Why would anybody ban you? You have the cutest hat on the forum!!

Anyway, :grouphug:

 

:blush: :blush: :blush: You're too sweet for words. The issues of my church are very raw to me, and yes, I am defensive. I will admit that. But my faith is stronger than ever! Thanks for being understanding while I sort of went bananas.

Heymom

 

I've always thought that religion played a big role in all of this. No bashing here honestly....but I am a spiritual person and claim no religion. I know that we, as human all fall short of the Glory of God. The reason I left Christianity was because of me not understanding how people that never hear of Jesus will go to Hell, even if they had a good heart and good intentions. Plus all the judgement on others. I always wondered also...why does Christianity have so many different branches? Church of Christ, Assembly of God, Baptist, Catholic, and so on. But anyways, I'm not trying to discuss religion here on the JonBenet forum....But I've always thought that by John and Patsy claiming to be good Christian did not amount to a hill of beans.

 

All I can say Wombat, is this. This is one very touchy subject, and having had a Catholic education, I will say no more than this. The Catholic religion is a religion of fear, and having been brought up in it, I could not wait until I was old enough to leave it. I left it, and I have never looked back, and I have no regrets.

 

Religion can block a person from having a religious experience. (Paraphrasing Jung.)

 

I agree with that Paradox.

 

Several months ago I watched a documentary titled: Holy Water-Gate about the agressive cover-up of child abuse by the Catholic church. I thought about the incest and other forms of child abuse that have been perpetrated and spawned by the perverts protected by this cover-up. It seems much more common in society today than when I was growing up.

My friend Tom Haney wrote a criminolgy textbook that dealt with the cross-generational aspects of incest and sexualiztion in early childhood. It is quite possible that the abuser of JonBenet was him/herself a victim of sexual abuse by a victim of sexual abuse a generation before.http://holywater-gate.com/news.shtml

 

This is why child sexual abuse is so abhorrent...the number of victims and future victims it destroys over time is incaluable.

I remember reading about the Fred West case in the UK. His wife Rose and her sister were abused by their father and because they believed incest to be normal Rose allowed her own daughters to be abused...and eventually murdered....It was the family's view of incest as 'normal' that left me shaking my head in despair.

Heymom - it wasn't my intention to upset you, sorry if I did, but I felt the point was worth making

 

It is theorized that sexual abuse as a child is one of the leading causes of dissociative identity disorder in women. I think Patsy had a form of this disorder.

Of all the damage done to JonBenet that night, the vaginal damage was the least. The rn doesn't mention anything of sex at all. The pageant costuming and coaching and the prior vaginal abuse were much more about sex than anything on 12/25/96. I think sexual disfunction played a part in Patsy's psychopathology, but I don't think it was the driving force in the crime. Otherwise, there might have been more things pointing to it.

 

Tonight while reading the Miss America information on the media archives, I saw PR's talent was: Author/Duo acting, which, IMO, says it all.

 

Exxxxxxactly!!! Not only could she write that Ransom Note, she could also Act the part, and she did.......

 

Amber sweetie, I am almost 50 and not easily upset! Don't worry, I'm fine. I know that I am being defensive, so I'm standing down in this discussion. I have to say, though, as I watched a little more of that BBC film, I was very digusted by the ex-priest who wasn't the least bit ashamed of himself, describing in detail how he molested his victims. That's beyond repugnant. I wonder why parents allow their children to spend the night with a priest, like that one older man had. I suppose they don't believe anything could happen, but what is normal about that?

Heymom

 

I just want to say a word about Catholic school teachers. I have several friends who chose to teach in Catholic schools rather than higher-paying public schools. They did this not because they wanted to hit kids (which they never did), but rather because they wanted to teach in an atmosphere where you could discipline children verbally without fear of being punished or sued by parents. They are allowed more control over their classrooms which makes teaching and learning easier. Also, they love the smaller, close-knit feeling of community they get by teaching in Catholic schools.

Many Catholic schools are closing in the New York City area and parents and students alike are devastated. I have read many newspaper articles about the protests being conducted by teachers, parents, and students of schools slated to be closed by the Archdiocese. These schools must be doing something right to cause such anger and sadness by their closing.

 

'tis a fine line sometimes between mentoring the soul... and stealing it !!

I'll say very little about religion other than to say organised ones have much to account for... any more I and i will simply offend many here and thats not why Im here )

 

Relevant to the Ram case?

This thread is very interesting, and I believe the subject matter is indeed relevant to the Ramsey case. Amber, I have great empathy for you, and appreciate your candor in describing the abuse you witnessed in Catholic schools.
Inasmuch as I grew up on a Jesuit college campus (where my Dad was a Professor) and attended Catholic schools for 12 years, I am more than familiar with the Catholic Church. Although no longer a practicing Catholic, I consider myself (imperfect though I am) a Christian.
I believe that child abuse occurs, in the home or in the school, whenever evil caregivers can practice their perversions unabated. Unfortunately, Priests, with such propensities, are in unique positions to satisfy (and keep hidden) abnormal cravings. Uncovering child abuse, among the clergy, has, until recent times, been almost impossible.
Whereas I am aware of such abuse, I was fortunate. The Priests I knew, without exception, were kind and gentle men, and the nuns were, without exception, kind and gentle women. There was never a hint of child abuse in the 12 years I attended Catholic schools.
Why? Because the ethics and rules were straight and pure, from the top. The leadership of the entire system demanded excellence and dedication. The child’s welfare seemed to ever be the prime objective. Although not perfect, it produced good results. Warts and all, I am the product of that system, which, sad to say, no longer exists. (Although remnants live on, the original has dissipated.)
How is all this relevant to the Ram case? Well, there are those who profess to be good Christians, while using their “faith†(like the Priests) as shields to hide behind, whenever their evil behavior is called into question. And, yes, there are those ignorant enough to believe that such people could never be guilty of child abuse or murder, because they are such “good Christians.†It makes me sick.
:leaf:

 

Oh, Greenleaf, thank you. Thanks for sharing your experience. My own son is at a Jesuit school as I type this. There are few Jesuits actually teaching and the morality of the school is not what I understand Jesuit schools used to be.

I believe that the academics are strong and the general campus culture is still one of integrity and virtue. The motto of the school reflects that. I admire any teacher who can handle a campus of 800+ testosterone-infused young men, and I believe that the teachers at my son's school deserve that admiration.

One of the coaches at a previous school was arrested and is serving time for child abuse. This was not a Catholic school.

Greenleaf, thank you.

 

Thank you Greenleaf for your kind words The Primary Catholic school I and my son went to was academically and morally way ahead of all the non-denominational schools around it. The majority of teachers were excellent and taught a love of learning that was infectious, even the touchy feely one. I ended up with a degree and my son is now at University too.
I believe God gave us discernment for a reason; just because a man wears a habit or priest's clothes it should not mean that we switch off our 'radar' and ignore our gut feelings that something might be wrong... These people who USE the church as a cover are in the minority, it's our moral duty to make sure as few children end up victims as possible. That's why this subject should not be hushed up and kept hidden...IMHO

 

Since we are on the topic of Catholicism, I thought I'd share my experiences.

My stepfather went to Catholic school when he was a boy. He sometimes speaks of it as a horrible place to grow up. He says he was constantly "watching his back".
He remembers odd things happening between priests and schoolboys (i.e. being locked away in rooms together and hearing lots of crying), but he says nothing ever happened to him, personally as he was quite a big boy for his age (prodigiously strong I am told) and came from an influential family.

I myself have had interesting experiences on account of my "jewiness". I've had fine Christian people tell my they were quite certain I was going to hell. Others were kind enough to inform me that Jesus had died so that I could eat pork... yeah.

In any case, I kind of resent the fact that someone said that only people on the inside could point out the faults and wrongdoings of Catholicism... thats just plain wrong. It is the duty of every human being (for the sake of safety and society) to expose criminal behavior wherever it may be, no matter how inconvinient.

Truth is truth and the Catholic Church should not fear it. Truth is the Catholic Church facilitates molestation and has for centuries. I'm certainly not saying that regular everyday Catholics are responsible for this, but the Church as an institution is more often than not, not held accountable for not complying with the laws of the land because it holds God and faith up as a shield. As far as I know, Jesus instructs all people to comply with the laws of the land they live in (unless those laws contradict the 10 commandments of course), so the right thing for the Church to do is to turn in all those ******* molestor-priests to the authorities and let society deal with them appropriately.